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First off, I don't really want stuff like "you MUST take vulkan and assault Terminators!" or "Sternguard are only good with this loadout in a drop pod!" stuff. I don't have a lot, can't afford much, and I want to learn how to utilize what I have. Please, help me go through each unit and how to use it effectively.

Let's start with the humble tactical marines:
1.What can they do well?
2.what should they do?
3.How and when to combat squad
4. what can combat squads do well?
5.how to use a rhino
6.what should the sergeant have?

1. They're flexible, being able to adapt to an enemy during deployment, rather than relying on sheer power.

2. Understand Combat Tactics and Combat Squads. These two abilities, combined with ATSKNF is what makes vanilla marines such a flexible army.

3. Depends on the enemy. As an example, take a 10 man Sternguard squad, 5x melta/5x plasma (combi) in a drop pod with a Death Wind Launcher.

Facing a horde army with no tanks and little anti-tank? Drop the pod empty and fire the DWL every turn until destroyed. Facing heavy transports like Land Raiders? Drop Pod the squad, and combat squad as they exit; shoot the LR with melta, expose the passengers, and fire appropriately into it with the plasma. Facing MCs in a kill points game? Focus on the biggest target with all 10 troops, or drop it at a good defensible position and fire at range with Kraken bolts.

4. Hold Objectives, and in the above case, split fire in a sense. Essentially, whatever MSUs can do.

5. Passengers will have a target; use the Rhino to bring them to that target. When done, tank shock or use as bait. Rarely, you'll use it as a transport twice. Pill box Rhino doesn't work very well in 6th ed, but drive-by shooting is still somewhat useful. Either way, the biggest advantage of a rhino is not its capacity, but the fact that you can shoot out of it with 2 models.

6. Combi-Bolters are useful. Otherwise, a plasma pistol for precision shots to snipe wargear. You rarely want to put yourself into CC, and when its forced on you, its likely the enemy is a dedicated CC unit; Sergeants and their squad will rarely survive such units to warrant melee weapons. Melta Bombs and Krak grenades do a good enough job for all other situations.

Alright, thanks for the answers! I need a lot of help, as I really don't want to keep loseing

For number 6: I find that having power swords are good too. although I do see your point, as every time my sergeant gets into a challenge he gets wasted/whiffs horribly. what should I have them do when getting charged by another unit?

question number 7: Often times I have to do a mad end game scramble for another objective. is there any way to avoid this when very little is left on the table?

I agree with Shadelkan on 1 and 4, and I have the following to add

2. The primary purpose of any troops choice should be to work towards capturing and holding objectives. While this includes both claiming objectives themselves and shooting enemy units, never forget that in 5/6ths of the games, claiming objectives decides who wins.

3. Although there are a lot of semantics, if you are looking for "general rules" for combat squadding, you break a 10 man squad down for objective missions, and keep them as one big squad for KP missions to offer fewer units to destroy. That being said, this can all change depending on army composition (both yours and your opponents) and how many objectives are available. The only other guideline I'd offer is that you almost always combat squad if the squad has a Razorback.

5. They serve two purposes, to move your troops from A to B quickly, and to help protect them while doing so. After disembarking from a Rhino, the best things to do with it are to either try to tank-shock an enemy unit off the board, or to use it as a wall of sorts to try to block LOS to your models. However, in many cases, it is also reasonable to hide your Rhino, especially if you think you'll need to redeploy the tactical squad elsewhere.

6. Generally speaking you'll want either a combi-flamer, combi-melta, or a power sword on your sergeant, or possibly a combination of those. Combi-flamers help protect your unit against charges, combi-melta's give you a little bit extra anti-tank, and a power sword means that if you get charged by anything that isn't a terminator you can challenge and hope to mitigate some of the damage from the unit. While not as good against high Initiative units, against I4 or worse you can save yourself from a lot of damage.

7. Remember to always keep objectives in mind, and start moving towards them on turn 4 at the latest. If you start thinking about capturing objectives on the last turn, you are never going to be able to get into position in time. Transports, like Rhino's and Razorbacks, help a lot, but you have to start thinking a turn or two in advance. Don't just move your guys forward, think "Where do I want squad X to go and what do I want it to do". Come up with some sort of gameplan and always keep it in the back of your mind.

Alright, thanks for that! Now, could you help me and decide if each unit is a good idea? I use Cato Sicarius as an HQ, so I try to make each one to fit a special rule (remember, I can only pick one rule between Infiltrate, scout, counter assault, and tank hunter)

Troop1: Tactical squad (10 man, power weapon, melta bomb, lascannon, Meltagun, rhino)-240pts
I tailored this unit to use the TankHunter special rule. Although I only tried it once, I would like to try combat squading them, putting the lascannon squad in the defense line and use their tank hunter rule on the quad gun. The sergeant and melta gun would be in a rhino to try and drive towards any tank in need of killing.

Troop 2: Tactical squad (10 man, power weapon, melta bomb, Flamer, Heavy Bolter, rhino)-225pts
This squad would be one unit most of the games, serving as my Counter-Assault unit when the need arises. I try and use them as a turn 5 objective getter (bad idea x-x)

Troop 3: Tactical squad (10 man, plasma pistol, melta bombs, flamer, plasma cannon, Heavy bolter razorback)-235p
This squad can use the Infiltrate rule, which I pull out when I don't really have the need for the other rules. I combat squad them to use both the razorback and the plasma cannon.

Infiltrate Plasma Spam Squads are neat, because they can capture objectives in excellent cover that you cannot reach.

Counter-Assault units... Are a bit situational. I don't really like it that much.

Smart move on the Tank Hunter squad, but don't take a power weapon; combi-melta instead and combat squad with the meltagun in the rhino.

oh, never thought about the combi-melta on troop 1! thanks

Now, a slightly similar question, this time about some sternguard (don't have a drop pod and little else for the models)

Cato Sicarius-200p
Elite 1: 8 Sternguard vet (x3 combi-melta/plasmas, x2 plasma rifles, power axe, melta bombs, Rhino)-290p


Okay, put them together cause they stay in the same rhino. I usually try to use this as an elite killer/ stormtrooper type of unit. I like the plasma rifles a lot and actually had some big units run away from them. the noable accomplishments are:
Annihilated shrike and his infiltrating 10 man assault terminator squad.
Destroyed a 10 man tactical terminator squad, leaving only 2 guys left
Killed a Daemon prince of khorne
Killed vulkan He'stan


The questions i have is:
1. how to use them to the most effect (no drop pods)
2. position them a little more
3. how to protect them better

(hope that wasn't too derpy.)

Any tips for them? please?

First off, don't use plasma guns or melta guns. The reason people take Combi weapons is two-part; for starters, its unlikely youll get more than one shot off. Secondly, the Sternguard's special ammo. Using a combi weapon lets them keep that.

Rhino is fine for Sternguard, but as I explained, Rhinos are just transports to get them into position. In terms of positioning, it all depends on their target. Naturally, combi-meltas will want to be closer to tanks, and combi-plasma will want to target high toughness, strong armor targets. Remember that you have 30" range shots in the form of Krakken rounds, and can therefore toss long range shots from the safety of cover as well.

Let's put it another way; you want to avoid whatever can kill your sternguard easily (battle cannons). Your opponent will avoid your Sternguard for the same reasons. Drop Pods are a way of forcibly putting the Sternguard where they hurt the most. I personally believe they're better than Rhinos in that regard.

Is there no way to scratch build a drop pod? Build one out of cardboard! Drop pods really rock for the first turn blow up an important target.

If in a Rhino, look at the opponents list and find the most likely target. If you get first turn use the other rhinos as a wall to protect the Sternguard's rhino. At least you will get a 4 + cover save AND it serves as a deterrent vs assaults.

Also, Snipers, Use them well. If applied right, they get awesome. I know very little actually like them. Just remember placement is everything with space marines.

I dislike anything that takes the special ammo away from sternguard. I take them to shoot the special ammo. I also run a lot lighter on combis then most people. I also use a librarian with GoI to port them around. But enough about me...

Your squad is going to drive up to a juicy, non-vehicle target, get out of their rhino, and blow it to atoms. There might be a round of sitting in the rhino popping smoke.

If you get charged, you have enough CC in the squad to give a good showing for yourself. For shooting, be careful how you are positioned when you get out of the rhino. Try to make sure the only thing that can see you is the target you are about to kill. Feel free to sacrifice the rhino. If you are shooting, it has done its job well, anything else you get from it is gravy.

Don't feel compelled to shoot all your combis in the first volley. The threat of melta in the midfield acts as dangerous terrain for vehicles. If they get to close, they might just explode. It doesn't matter that you might miss, fail to pen, or roll something lame on the damage chart. The mere potential is enough to keep some foes at bay.

Back on the subject of combat squadding. It lets you get more use out of your special and heavy weapons, by allowing them to shoot at their optimal targets separately. The price for this is reducing the effectiveness of massed bolter fire. There are few things that can't be taken down by just hammering out a good, solid bolter drill. I think a lot of people ignore the humble bolter. It is one of the strengths of the tactical squad.

There are easier and safer ways to get melta on the field mid battle, like a Land speeder/land raider. I recommend a squad of 5 sterngaurd kitted with melta, drop podding in and destroying a lone vehicle. Then they can do some major damage with special ammo.

Call me a stubborn son of dorn, but I actually like the plasma guns on my guys I find it really meshes well with the other shooting, and provides even more AP2 fire. really, the only time the plasma storm didn't work is when I whiffed against a lone typhus but oh well, thanks for giving me advice besides loadout critque.

So, use the rhino as mobile cover, and use the other rhinos as even more cover. how close should it be? I tried it before and all the rhino convoy did was get in the way of each other. Did I put them too close together?

And is drop podding stenguard always going to be suicide sternguard?

 Tiger9gamer wrote:
Call me a stubborn son of dorn, but I actually like the plasma guns on my guys I find it really meshes well with the other shooting, and provides even more AP2 fire. really, the only time the plasma storm didn't work is when I whiffed against a lone typhus but oh well, thanks for giving me advice besides loadout critque.

So, use the rhino as mobile cover, and use the other rhinos as even more cover. how close should it be? I tried it before and all the rhino convoy did was get in the way of each other. Did I put them too close together?

And is drop podding stenguard always going to be suicide sternguard?

If it works for you and you are having fun, it's all good.

As for the rhinos, that really depends on the terrain placement, what else you are fielding, who you are facing, etc. The real answer is "enough to hinder your opponent, but not yourself" You want to block your foes lines of fire, while leaving your own open. It's one of the things you have to learn buy practice and experience.

If you drop 5 sternguard, unsupported, odds are they are not going to see the end of your opponent's turn. If you drop them in tandem with other units, keeping the pods between you and the stuff you aren't vaporizing first turn, you may live. 5 guys in power armor are not that hard to erase from the table. While they don't have to be a suicide unit, if you don't support them, they will be.

Hmmm, the 5 man drop pod still doesnt sound too appealing, and I think a MM dreadnought drop pod would do the same for less.

Anyways, lets move onto a bike squad. lets say 3 bikes with an attack bike w/ MM

If you want a plasma guns try command squads. Actually Cato will prefer this, as they work well with him, in terms of wargear, FNP et cetera.

Whereas Sternguard want to just sit there and shoot.
I wouldn't put so many points into a single rhino it becomes a huge target.
It is better to have lots of rhino units about the same price and with the same target priority for the enemy.
I think combimeltas are good for sternguard, as it gives the flexibility of being able to melt tanks. Then I expect their ammo to kill everything else, with the exception that I feel heavy flamers are extremely useful.

The first questions about tactical marines is very broad. In general they can do everything reasonably well, so you can use them however is needed on the die, making sure they are alive to score at the end.
The same with the rhino which can block LOS in many interesting ways, block assaults, tank shock, transport again lots of interesting tactics available with moving units about especially late game, and then you are paying 35 pts just to have a hard to kill storm bolter which is not too bad per se.

Best general marines lessons I have learned are as follows

1. Tacticals first job is to survive. If pushed they can contribute meaningfully, but they need to gang up and can be overwhelmed by a coordinated enemy

2. Rhinos are great on paper but in practice they provide an illusion of mobility. Unless you have heavy armour soaking the enemy's anti tank capabilities your rhinos will almost certainly be dead by end turn 3

3. Because tacticals dont have a CCW they only have 1 attack when charged, or 2 on the charge. Their best contribution is their bolter. For this reason I generally find it easier to bias vanilla marines to shooty over assaulty

4. We have units that cause fear in the opponent. Learn to utilse that fear, it effects their deployment as well as their game play

5. Pick a strategy and do it with conviction. This applies equally to list design as on table play. Dont drop 5 sternguard in a pod, drop 30 in pods, with some beefy HQs to boot. Dont take 1 dread, take 6. Equally dont try and have assaulty and shooty. If you shooty, you will have local counter assault, ie one flavour of terminator, probably tac terminators, however the idea is to do your main strength blisteringly well then you can mop up and take objectives.

 Loricatus Aurora wrote:
Best general marines lessons I have learned are as follows

1. Tacticals first job is to survive. If pushed they can contribute meaningfully, but they need to gang up and can be overwhelmed by a coordinated enemy

2. Rhinos are great on paper but in practice they provide an illusion of mobility. Unless you have heavy armour soaking the enemy's anti tank capabilities your rhinos will almost certainly be dead by end turn 3

3. Because tacticals dont have a CCW they only have 1 attack when charged, or 2 on the charge. Their best contribution is their bolter. For this reason I generally find it easier to bias vanilla marines to shooty over assaulty

4. We have units that cause fear in the opponent. Learn to utilse that fear, it effects their deployment as well as their game play

5. Pick a strategy and do it with conviction. This applies equally to list design as on table play. Dont drop 5 sternguard in a pod, drop 30 in pods, with some beefy HQs to boot. Dont take 1 dread, take 6. Equally dont try and have assaulty and shooty. If you shooty, you will have local counter assault, ie one flavour of terminator, probably tac terminators, however the idea is to do your main strength blisteringly well then you can mop up and take objectives.

Wow, good advise! thanks! alright, so now I also need to ask for advise about Tactical terminators.

I have about 10 tactical terminators, or two of them with auto cannons. Is there any good tips on how to bring them to the game and use them properly? maybe a land raider?

If you are putting terminators in a LR, get assaults. Tac terminators can just walk across the board, ignoring most fire, and pepper things with stormbolters. If you don't want to walk, a 5 man squad makes for a good reserve unit. Deep strike them to where you need them. They can do just about anything, so make for good troubleshooters. I dislike having too much of my army in reserves, as the part on the table has to suffer under heavy fire until help arrives.

I like the assault cannon. If you are going to be shooting stormbolters at something, the AC will work at killing your target. One of the things I dislike about CMLs is that is you need the krack missiles, odds are you are wasting the bolter shots. If frag missiles didn't consistently disappoint me every time I shot one down range, I might change my opinion, as they actually have synergy with the rest of the squad.

I blame my scatter die.

Plus, the assault cannon just looks cool.

Heavy flamers are the oft overlooked terminator weapon. They are cheep, but very short range. 6th made them a bit better. If deep striking, I might take one, but I'd rather shell out the points for one of the better guns. If fielding a 10 man squad, I might include it just to mirror the classic tac squad special weapon.

A chainfist or two in the squad is like putting melta bombs on your sergeant. Good if you have a spare 5 points. As you are already getting a lot of powerfist attacks, it's not really necessary. It does ensure that anytime you are in CC with a vehicle, you will be walking away from it's smoking wreak the turn after.

For what it's worth, my most common deployment of them is a 5 man squad, assault cannon, one chainfist. About a 50/50 chance of deepstriking or walking, depending on the rest of my list, my mood, the table, and my foe.

The most fundamental lesson to learn about vanilla Space Marines is that while they can do everything, they cannot do anything particularly well. Tau and Guard outshoot them, Chaos and Orks out-assault them, Eldar/Dark Eldar outrun them, et cetera. You will win games by finding your opponent's army's weakness and exploiting it, not by leveraging your own strength. Don't tie yourself to one army build; you need to be able to take on any enemy army in their weakest field to win, which means assaulting shooty armies, popping transports, shooting assaulty armies, et cetera.

Alright, sounds pretty good. Now, I need to ask about my heavy support: whats the best way to use vindicators?

As for equipping tactical sergeants, I think a power weapon is a good option, especially against heavily armoured foes. Sure, you don't want to get your tacticals in CC, but your opponent might disargee with that. Tactical squads are most effective in rapid fire range, and when they get that close to the enemy, they get assaulted quite often. A single power weapon is a considerable boost to the squads CC potential; against 3+ armour a power sword triples the sargeant's kills.

unless he gets challenge an both your sergent and your opponent's kill each other... X-X

 Tiger9gamer wrote:
unless he gets challenge an both your sergent and your opponent's kill each other... X-X

Seems likely enough, but it's better than the alternative. I recently watched a game where Blood Angels Sternguad and Dreadnought were locked in combat with Dark Angels tactical squad for four full turns, because the sargeants were in challenge with each other, neither had a power weapon and they just didn't manage to kill each other. For last two of those turns the DA sergeant was the only surviving member of his squad. He finally won and was pulverised by the dread next turn.

 Crimson wrote:

 Tiger9gamer wrote:
unless he gets challenge an both your sergent and your opponent's kill each other... X-X

Seems likely enough, but it's better than the alternative. I recently watched a game where Blood Angels Sternguad and Dreadnought were locked in combat with Dark Angels tactical squad for four full turns, because the sargeants were in challenge with each other, neither had a power weapon and they just didn't manage to kill each other. For last two of those turns the DA sergeant was the only surviving member of his squad. He finally won and was pulverised by the dread next turn.

Oh dang O-O that sounds fun.

okay, so onto vindicators... how can you protect them the most?

First appreciation of vindicators is keeping large parts of the board free from your guys, meaning you either want shooty, or highly mobile surgical you can ram down an opponents flank.

Im not a great fan. Best fitout in my opinion would be a wall of av13 and 14 so flanks protected with your infantry either in vehicles or gunline formation. Very cinematic.

Problems are limitations on your manoeuvre and ease of dealing w them. Ie opponent MCs in your deployment zone, vindis are useless. For that reason adding in a TFC and plasmagun squad would synergise well.

Having said that its a beast against everything. Nurgle, fortifications, etc

How close should the other rhinos be? and would devastators w/ 3 rocket launchers be a good idea in place of the TFC?

The 3 rocket devs serves a much different purpose than the thunderfire. The thunderfire is something that can put decent damage on lower armored troops. Or manipulate how the opponent is moving. The quake submunitions shells are awesome in the right circumstances.

The devs are a purely damage output. They either crack transports/vehicles. Or they are killing troops. So you have to decide if you want slightly less damage output for the ability to bolster a ruin and manipulate things in your favor. Or have pure damage output.

TFC is the best tool we have, dont give it up for nothing! The main reason why? it can ignore cover with 4 blasts at str 5! That's huge against IG/harlies/scouts/any army that likes to bunker down behind an aegis line for that 2+ cover (when going to ground)

Rockets are nothing compared to that. I put 15 wounds on a strike squad with a tfc behind a wall and they lost 4 and ran off the baord in the first turn. TFC is our baby. That and you get a free techmarine (plasma gun, flamer, 2 powerifst attacks? 2+ armour? yes please) to boot and get to boost ruins, which synergizes well with scouts/tacs trying to survive.

Dont leave home without one.

Vindicator is best in reserve (except for hammer and anvil deployment) protected from alpha strikes and can come where you need it/potentially popping up close are to their line than they would like. He's also a counter to deep striking armies if held in reserve

Attack bikes are also pretty fantastic, 50 points for 2 t5 wounds, a MM and bolter. I run at least 2 if i can just for mobility and destroying things.

the only thing to potentially give sternguard is a heavy flamer... but i run 2 combi flamers instead. 2+ poison is just too good, it's our main way of dealing with MCs /Artillary (yep!)/anyone who has been iron-armed or is otherwise just high toughness