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Ok here is the situation in a game of mine http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/485543.page

Biovores are out of Synapse and fail their Instinctive Behaviour test.

There is a night scythe with some disembarked warriors (5-man unit). They are the closest 2 units to my biovores. Actually the night scythe is a little closer.

So with Lurking, my biovores have to fire at the closest target, which in this case would be the night scythe. However, blasts cannot hit flyers.

So even though my blast cannot hit it, do I still put the blast on the flyer (BTW, the blast also covers the disembarked warriors) or do I target the next closest unit instead (or warriors) or is it even legal to target a unit I cannot hit (that is, am I not able to fire at all)?

Thanks, dakka.

To me it looks as if you'd have to run to the closest cover.

Must shoot closest unit.

Cannot snapfire blasts.

To me equates to having no "ranged weaponry"

Shots at Flyers must be resolved as Snap Shots - so you're not firing a snap shot, just resolving it as one. So we know you're allowed to fire.

Hard to hit says that blasts cannot hit Flyers - so that's not an issue, you just don't hit the Flyer with your blast.

I'd say you're in the clear.

rigeld2 wrote:
Shots at Flyers must be resolved as Snap Shots - so you're not firing a snap shot, just resolving it as one. So we know you're allowed to fire.

Hard to hit says that blasts cannot hit Flyers - so that's not an issue, you just don't hit the Flyer with your blast.

I'd say you're in the clear.

reworking

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:
To me it looks as if you'd have to run to the closest cover.

Must shoot closest unit.

Cannot snapfire blasts.

To me equates to having no "ranged weaponry"

You've got a misconception on "Lurk" in there. Lurk: 1) You don't move in the Movement phase; 2) In the shooting phase, you shoot at the closest target in LoS and Range; 2a) If you don't have a valid target per 2, you Run towards the nearest piece of Area terrain.

rigeld2 wrote:
Shots at Flyers must be resolved as Snap Shots - so you're not firing a snap shot, just resolving it as one. So we know you're allowed to fire.

Hard to hit says that blasts cannot hit Flyers - so that's not an issue, you just don't hit the Flyer with your blast.

I'd say you're in the clear.

Blasts may not be fired as snapshots though. pg 13.

I'm not seeing anything special about resolving shots in the shooting phase rules, however I may be missing something.

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Shots at Flyers must be resolved as Snap Shots - so you're not firing a snap shot, just resolving it as one. So we know you're allowed to fire.

Hard to hit says that blasts cannot hit Flyers - so that's not an issue, you just don't hit the Flyer with your blast.

I'd say you're in the clear.

Blasts may not be fired as snapshots though. pg 13.

I'm not seeing anything special about resolving shots in the shooting phase rules, however I may be missing something.

Read Hard to hit. Cite the rule that requires you to fire a snap shot.
That's not what the rule says - it says to resolve the shot as a snap shot.

rigeld2 wrote:

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Shots at Flyers must be resolved as Snap Shots - so you're not firing a snap shot, just resolving it as one. So we know you're allowed to fire.

Hard to hit says that blasts cannot hit Flyers - so that's not an issue, you just don't hit the Flyer with your blast.

I'd say you're in the clear.

Blasts may not be fired as snapshots though. pg 13.

I'm not seeing anything special about resolving shots in the shooting phase rules, however I may be missing something.

Read Hard to hit. Cite the rule that requires you to fire a snap shot.
That's not what the rule says - it says to resolve the shot as a snap shot.

That's what I was looking for. Hence the second line.

Always good to know I can target a zooming flyer with a blast weapon and hope deviates.

Seems to me that resolving the blast as a snapshot means that no blast actually occurs.

Pyrian wrote:
Seems to me that resolving the blast as a snapshot means that no blast actually occurs.

Rules citation? Hard to hit just says the blast can't hit the flyer.

rigeld2 wrote:

Pyrian wrote:
Seems to me that resolving the blast as a snapshot means that no blast actually occurs.

Rules citation? Hard to hit just says the blast can't hit the flyer.

So I happened to look at the BRB FAQ for something else (the Tau Seeker Missile thread) and saw this..

Q: How do maelstroms, novas and beams – or indeed any weapon
that doesn’t need to roll To Hit or hits automatically – interact with
Zooming Flyers and Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures? (p13)
A: Only Snap Shots can hit Zooming Flyers and Swooping
Flying Monstrous Creatures. Therefore, any attacks that use
blast markers, templates, create a line of/area of effect or
otherwise don’t roll to hit cannot target them.

Emphasis mine.

I'm changing my assertion earlier - the FAQ says that they cannot be targeted, which means the biovores could not have fired on the Flyer. They should still be able to fire at the nearby warriors however - I have to think that part through.

rigeld2 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Pyrian wrote:
Seems to me that resolving the blast as a snapshot means that no blast actually occurs.

Rules citation? Hard to hit just says the blast can't hit the flyer.

So I happened to look at the BRB FAQ for something else (the Tau Seeker Missile thread) and saw this..

Q: How do maelstroms, novas and beams – or indeed any weapon
that doesn’t need to roll To Hit or hits automatically – interact with
Zooming Flyers and Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures? (p13)
A: Only Snap Shots can hit Zooming Flyers and Swooping
Flying Monstrous Creatures. Therefore, any attacks that use
blast markers, templates, create a line of/area of effect or
otherwise don’t roll to hit cannot target them.

Emphasis mine.

I'm changing my assertion earlier - the FAQ says that they cannot be targeted, which means the biovores could not have fired on the Flyer. They should still be able to fire at the nearby warriors however - I have to think that part through.

I'm still pretty sure beings they cannot target the flyer they must run.

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:
I'm still pretty sure beings they cannot target the flyer they must run.

Lurk says they only run if there are no enemies within LoS or within range (or if they have no ranged weaponry).

Since that is demonstrably not true, and they cannot target the Flyer, they should be able to target the Warriors.

rigeld2 wrote:

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:
I'm still pretty sure beings they cannot target the flyer they must run.

Lurk says they only run if there are no enemies within LoS or within range (or if they have no ranged weaponry).

Since that is demonstrably not true, and they cannot target the Flyer, they should be able to target the Warriors.

It states they must fire at the closest. The warriors are not the Closest.

They have no ranged weapons they may fire at the flyer. So they should run. How I see it.

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:
I'm still pretty sure beings they cannot target the flyer they must run.

Lurk says they only run if there are no enemies within LoS or within range (or if they have no ranged weaponry).

Since that is demonstrably not true, and they cannot target the Flyer, they should be able to target the Warriors.

It states they must fire at the closest. The warriors are not the Closest.

They cannot target the closest model. They cannot run since there are enemies in LoS. So they do nothing?

rigeld2 wrote:

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:
I'm still pretty sure beings they cannot target the flyer they must run.

Lurk says they only run if there are no enemies within LoS or within range (or if they have no ranged weaponry).

Since that is demonstrably not true, and they cannot target the Flyer, they should be able to target the Warriors.

It states they must fire at the closest. The warriors are not the Closest.

They cannot target the closest model. They cannot run since there are enemies in LoS. So they do nothing?

Yep RAW they do nothing.

No, RAW doesn't allow for that. By RAW the game breaks and everyone goes home.

They *have* to fire at the closest, yet they *can't* fire at the closest. There is no stipulations in the rules for this, so the game breaks.

Any other resolution is essentially a house rule. To me the most sense is to let them fire at the next closest unit. (The warriors)

coredump wrote:
No, RAW doesn't allow for that. By RAW the game breaks and everyone goes home.

They *have* to fire at the closest, yet they *can't* fire at the closest. There is no stipulations in the rules for this, so the game breaks.

Any other resolution is essentially a house rule. To me the most sense is to let them fire at the next closest unit. (The warriors)

Why is that the most sense?
They can't fire at the closest than why wouldn't they run?

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

coredump wrote:
No, RAW doesn't allow for that. By RAW the game breaks and everyone goes home.

They *have* to fire at the closest, yet they *can't* fire at the closest. There is no stipulations in the rules for this, so the game breaks.

Any other resolution is essentially a house rule. To me the most sense is to let them fire at the next closest unit. (The warriors)

Why is that the most sense?
They can't fire at the closest than why wouldn't they run?

Because the only permission to run is if there are no enemies in sight.

rigeld2 wrote:

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

coredump wrote:
No, RAW doesn't allow for that. By RAW the game breaks and everyone goes home.

They *have* to fire at the closest, yet they *can't* fire at the closest. There is no stipulations in the rules for this, so the game breaks.

Any other resolution is essentially a house rule. To me the most sense is to let them fire at the next closest unit. (The warriors)

Why is that the most sense?
They can't fire at the closest than why wouldn't they run?

Because the only permission to run is if there are no enemies in sight.

Well that's not entirely true, you'd run if you have no ranged weapons. ^^

I'm aware, just as you must shoot the closest unit.
You have no permission to shoot the second closest.
You must sit there and twiddle your Bio-parts.

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

coredump wrote:
No, RAW doesn't allow for that. By RAW the game breaks and everyone goes home.

They *have* to fire at the closest, yet they *can't* fire at the closest. There is no stipulations in the rules for this, so the game breaks.

Any other resolution is essentially a house rule. To me the most sense is to let them fire at the next closest unit. (The warriors)

Why is that the most sense?
They can't fire at the closest than why wouldn't they run?

Because the only permission to run is if there are no enemies in sight.

Well that's not entirely true, you'd run if you have no ranged weapons. ^^

I'm aware, just as you must shoot the closest unit.
You have no permission to shoot the second closest.
You must sit there and twiddle your Bio-parts.

No, it's already been established that the game breaks. You asked why they wouldn't run.
They wouldn't run because the first instinct is to shoot - they cannot target the nearest unit and would therefore target the next closest.

Hi guys, thanks for taking the time to reply to this thread.

I know that the Tau FAQ sets a precedent, but who'd think to look into another codex's FAQ to get the answer? Hmmm....guess we'd just have to house-rule this one. Sounds like another one of those chicken-or-the-egg paradoxes. In this case, need to target the closest model but it's not legal to target the closest model. I think I'd go with the need to target the closest legal model.

 jy2 wrote:
Hi guys, thanks for taking the time to reply to this thread.

I know that the Tau FAQ sets a precedent, but who'd think to look into another codex's FAQ to get the answer? Hmmm....guess we'd just have to house-rule this one. Sounds like another one of those chicken-or-the-egg paradoxes. In this case, need to target the closest model but it's not legal to target the closest model. I think I'd go with the need to target the closest legal model.

I wouldn't. 6e sets up a number of situations where it specifically disallows what would be otherwise permissible actions - i.e., you can't charge a vehicle if you are incapable of hurting it. That would hold even if you're operating under a compulsion to charge (e.g., Rage, the OTHER Tyranid IB result).

 Janthkin wrote:

 jy2 wrote:
Hi guys, thanks for taking the time to reply to this thread.

I know that the Tau FAQ sets a precedent, but who'd think to look into another codex's FAQ to get the answer? Hmmm....guess we'd just have to house-rule this one. Sounds like another one of those chicken-or-the-egg paradoxes. In this case, need to target the closest model but it's not legal to target the closest model. I think I'd go with the need to target the closest legal model.

I wouldn't. 6e sets up a number of situations where it specifically disallows what would be otherwise permissible actions - i.e., you can't charge a vehicle if you are incapable of hurting it. That would hold even if you're operating under a compulsion to charge (e.g., Rage, the OTHER Tyranid IB result).

Except Feed does not require you to assault.

Just to twist things more in the case of a Biovore, Spore mine and flyer interaction? Do they explode if they come in contact with the base or just drift over it?
If they can't hit the flyer then would you end up with a cluster of spore mines?

 Janthkin wrote:

 jy2 wrote:
Hi guys, thanks for taking the time to reply to this thread.

I know that the Tau FAQ sets a precedent, but who'd think to look into another codex's FAQ to get the answer? Hmmm....guess we'd just have to house-rule this one. Sounds like another one of those chicken-or-the-egg paradoxes. In this case, need to target the closest model but it's not legal to target the closest model. I think I'd go with the need to target the closest legal model.

I wouldn't. 6e sets up a number of situations where it specifically disallows what would be otherwise permissible actions - i.e., you can't charge a vehicle if you are incapable of hurting it. That would hold even if you're operating under a compulsion to charge (e.g., Rage, the OTHER Tyranid IB result).

BTW, this has been FAQ'd to be yes, you can charge a unit that you can't hurt.


Isn't the default in the game that whatever you do, it has to be legal unless a rule allows you to bypass the condition? For example, even if you MUST assault a unit, you still wouldn't be able to do so if you had ran, out-flanked or just disembarked from a rhino. And if you must target the closest unit, wouldn't you still need range, LOS and a valid target (i.e. not locked in assault, etc.) in order for that unit to be an actual target for you? Just something to consider.

barnowl wrote:
Just to twist things more in the case of a Biovore, Spore mine and flyer interaction? Do they explode if they come in contact with the base or just drift over it?
If they can't hit the flyer then would you end up with a cluster of spore mines?

I'd say it just explode. Now you can't directly target the flyer, however, they can still scatter/drift into the flyer. The rules for spore mines says if it touches or lands within 2" of an enemy model, then it explodes. In this case, you are not targeting the flyer but the spore mines still go off if the conditions are met.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, this has been FAQ'd to be yes, you can charge a unit that you can't hurt.

General case: yes, you CAN charge a unit you can't hurt (e.g., Guardsmen can charge a Wraithlord). No rule actually prevented that. Specific case, you can't charge vehicles you can't hurt; they didn't change that rule, or remove the wording.

Isn't the default in the game that whatever you do, it has to be legal unless a rule allows you to bypass the condition? For example, even if you MUST assault a unit, you still wouldn't be able to do so if you had ran, out-flanked or just disembarked from a rhino. And if you must target the closest unit, wouldn't you still need range, LOS and a valid target (i.e. not locked in assault, etc.) in order for that unit to be an actual target for you? Just something to consider.

Absolutely. So if you MUST shoot the closest target in LoS (Lurk's conditions), but are forbidden from doing so, it seems to me that the appropriate result is Lurk's "else" condition - run to area terrain (or cower there). Nothing is giving you permission to pick a different target.

But you're forbidden from running if there are enemies in LoS...

Go to the fluff. All answers lye within. There instinct is to shoot. They shoot. If 40k universe doesn't alow them to target the flyer. They shoot the warriors.