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Discuss

Everything. Delete the whole game and start over from the beginning. I'd be surprised if my ideal 7th edition contains even a single sentence from 6th edition.

If the underlying game system had to remain intact?

Short list at a late hour:

Change vehicles first and foremost, drop the HP system and the silly "vehicles can't score/contest" thing so we see something that isn't a skimmer with a huge cover save or a flyer, or just make vehicles MC's already with appropriate saves. No reason to have them be this silly crippled hybrid unit type that leaves lots of units largely rather lame and others with overcompensating wargear/rules that makes them ridiculous.

I'd also drop First Blood as a mission VP, remove "Kill Point" based missions (or reintroduce old VP's), and allow charges from reserves again. Also remove Battle Brother abilities for allies.

I'd add a rule that tells you all FW is legal.

I would either delete the ally rules or at the very least change the rules and matrix.

Allow assault from reserve/outflank/any transport, but with a penalty. Something like -3" charge range, or overwatch fire is twin-linked. I'd also make Disordered Charges apply then, and only then.

Or failing that, I'd allow it as it worked in 5E and just let people shoot into combat. Easy.

 thenoobbomb wrote:
I'd add a rule that tells you all FW is legal.

That would be a stupid move because then all DKOK armies and pre heresy army's couldn't play

Random charge range for me give vehicles an armour save, make walkers tougher ( my contemptor never lasts up to turn 4 maximum)

The 40k vision is to have a simple and fast paced battle system that supports large amounts of models. For this you'd need to avoid complications and cut down on the amount of dice rolling. Units need to be homogenized somewhat while supporting customization.

Altering attack mechanics.
The purpose is to remove unnecessary dice rolls and make each attack roll follow the same mechanic and the same "table". By not having a special instance for each type of attack, but rather homogenising all the steps, you can increase the pace of the game and as such support larger amounts of models in the same time frame.
Ballistics Skill + D6 is compared against Cover.
Weapon Skill + D6 is compared against Weapon Skill + 3.
Strength + D6 is compared against Toughness + Armour.
Each roll has a number of potential modifiers. The goal is to keep the modifiers simple. Armour Piercing statistic is done away with completely and replaced with special rules that can either halve or ignore a model's armour value, similarly poison, flesh bane and armour bane can ignore a model's toughness value. Cover works by directly modifying a model's chance to hit, meaning that seeking cover is of importance even to extremely armoured models.

Homogenising units.
A basic flaw with the current system in terms of handling large number of models is that a unit can have units with more than one armour value (and more than one toughness value). By removing the Independent Character rule and removing differentiating armour values inside units as well as removing the Look Out Sir! mechanic, the wounding process on units can be streamlined.

Cover alterations and line of sight.
By removing true line of sight and making a terraced 2D system for determining line of sight and cover, one can effectively hide important models behind a screen of less important models and therefore make singular models a viable method of representing command models without unduly making them Bolter-Bait.
Additionally, cover needs to be separated between that which is granted by intervening terrain and that which is provided by movement. Certain weapons makes sense ignoring intervening terrain, but those do not necessarily have the projectile velocity to be remotely effective against models that move at very high speed. Conversely weapons with a lock-on system isn't going to care if the model fired upon is traveling at high speed while those weapons may not even be able to shoot at infantry at all.

Overwatch.
Overwatch as a concept is a good one, but it's execution is weird. Of course defenders will fire wildly if assaulted, but this abstraction is represented by their melee attacks. The I go You Go mechanic does not represent some sort of time difference between each army's moves, they happen roughly at the same time, but rather it represents who has the initiative.
Overwatch as such can be replaced with a deliberate mechanic. I see two with a high potential.
Overwatch as a defensive action: A unit may declare overwatch and if it does so it will shoot overwatch against any and all units that assault it during the coming turn. Enemy models assaulting may only move after all overwatch shooting has been concluded.
Overwatch as a tactical action: A unit declaring overwatch will target a specific area. They will shoot on any models moving inside this area until their next turn.

Facing.
Each model has a facing. Models may not gain benefit of cover when shot in the back, they may not shoot at models they can not see, and they receive a penalty on defensive weapon skill when struck from behind. A highly skilled model in melee is going to be able to handle two or three models with the possibility of being so skilled they can't hit him, but if overwhelmed and struck from behind he won't be able to defend himself.
This opens up for tactical positioning, surrounds and so on.

Movement.
Some thing that really bothers me is the weird way movement is handled. A model that assaults can move significantly longer than should he not assault.
Assaulting and running should be treated as the same thing.

Predictable movement.
Each model moves at a predictable pace. You do not roll for running, you do not roll for difficult terrain, etc. Running/assaulting/combat speed doubles your movement range. Certain actions such as turbo-boosting (fast or skimmer or jetbike) or flat-out (fast skimmer or fast jetbike (eldar)) may triple or quadruple speed. Base speed may be model-dependent, but initial thought is to keep it at 6"

Range.
The over all range of weapons need to go down. Alpha striking on turn one from across the battlefield means that unless you have an extraordinary amount of terrain, the player starting second will play at a distinct disadvantage. Not only that, but if that player managed to seize initiative, then his opponent will likely be left out in the open, meaning that the battle may be decided on a single dice roll.
This also since movement speeds in general go down. Typical infantry weapon would be between 12 and 18" while really long ranged weapons go between 36 and 48". This instead of having really long ranged weapons sit at around 60" or more

Phases.
You Go I Go is kept, but individual phases are changed. Each unit has a subset of potential actions, meaning that the separating these into 5 or 6 different phases is not necessary.
Upkeep: This is where morale rolls, mandatory unit movements, reinforcement rolls, and so on go.
Main: This is where all unit reinforcement arrival, unit movement, shooting, psychics etc go.
Melee: This is where assault movement and fighting in close combat go.
This also means that movement sequence can play an important role. Do you activate the Librarian first in order to move into range of the Assault Marines to use Prescience on them or is it more important that the Librarian is not in the way for the Razorback to move forward?

Wow... thats a pretty impressive list
Keep the ideas coming guys

Mahtamori: quite good ideas...

Assuming the underlying system remains the same (ie. not a complete "back to square one" style reboot of the entire game):

1. Hull Points are gone.
2. Any and all Walker type thing becomes Toughness/Wounds/Armour Save.
3. Units can assault out of stationary vehicles.
4. First Blood? Gonesky!
5. Blast Markers (non-Ordnance) places the template, rolls to hit on BS. That's it. Units firing multiple blasts just multiply the amount of hits under the template by the amount of hits scored by the firing unit. None of this time-wasting "scatter every marker" bull gak. If you miss, you miss.

There are probably other things, but yeah, those are the first ones that come to mind.

First blood is a good rule, you just need to work into not giving it up.

Anyway:

1. Get rid of warlord traits.
2. Walkers are MCs that are immune to "wounds on a fixed number" rules.
3. Theme armies like in WM.
4. something in the book that mocks page 5.
5. Change the turn structure to having each side only able to one phase per turn.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

brother marcus wrote:

 thenoobbomb wrote:
I'd add a rule that tells you all FW is legal.

That would be a stupid move because then all DKOK armies and pre heresy army's couldn't play

what are you going on about?

I think I'd cull like 70 % of USR. Each army would have 1-2 special rules (FNP for Orks, Rally squads for SM, stuff like that) but I would definitely not have that many USRs overall. Look at Demons: I think Khorne only has Rage, Hatred, Bloodlust, Fury, Rampage and about 10 more that sound pretty much the same. Who on earth can hold all that in his head while actually trying to pull of some battlefield tactics?

I would either get rid of first blood or change it. What I would love to see for "first blood" would be:

Get a victory point if, in one game turn, you killed an enemy unit without losing one yourself.

So if you go first and kill a rhino, but then they kill your rhino, no first blood. If it's turn 6 and you finally kill an enemy unit, and their retaliation doesn't finish off one of yours, you get first blood.

That way, first blood goes to the first player to actually get the upper hand, or skillfully arrange to destroy an enemy unit at no cost to themselves. Otherwise it's just a back and forth that, tactically, isn't worthwhile.


I would bring back VICTORY POINTS. Killing a rhino should not be worth the same amount as killing 10 Paladins. Ever.

I would make EMPTY, DEDICATED transports non-scoring, non-denial units. And remove the landraider as a dedicated transport (make it a heavy support option only, or allow it to be taken as heavy support OR elites OR HQ, if someone wants to cart their terminators around without having to give up heavy support).

I don't like how in one mission a maulerfiend doesn't count at all, yet in another it's a scoring unit. Was the reason for making vehicles non-scoring because they can't actually grab an objective? Because the dreadnought has two gun arms, he can't grab the vital dataslate that you've been fighting over? If that's the case, then they shouldn't be able to in some missions and be unable to in others.

A transport vehicle, typically, is just crap. Low armor, weak weapons, and by itself is just not able to do much. Play Dawn of War and build a rhino - what's it do? Transport troops, that's all. Doesn't do anything else.

A vehicle of substantial strength, something you could park in a street and cover the city block with supporting fire like a predator or falcon can keep someone from approaching an objective. They can deny the opponent that objective. A dreadnought standing by the dataslate protecting it until someone with actual hands comes by. Vehicles aside from dedicated transports should be able to deny objectives.

And a transport with a squad of guys in it SHOULD count. We abstract a lot of things in this game - we can't abstract that the guys can quickly get out and grab it? Being near it in a transport or being near it on foot are pretty close, given how quickly our troops are proposed to be able to disembark and be ready to fight.



I would allow overwatch at full BS, but you declare you are overwatching instead of shooting. So you move to near an objective, declare you are going into overwatch, and don't shoot anything. Then, if you get charged, you can let fly and cause significant damage. You could even allow them to shoot if a nearby unit is charged, too.

This way we could bring back charging from reserves, and situations like "khorne berserkers behind walls pile out and catch you totally unawares" are removed. And if someone tries to put their entire army on overwatch, well congrats you skipped your shooting phase. If the enemy decides not to charge you, you wasted your time.


I also think we should bring back "remove the casualties you want". It made the game faster, and the decisions people made regarding weapon selection and upgrades allowed them to get more out of it. Weapons can be picked up by other squad members, so there's no reason that meltagun should fall to the ground and Look out, Sir! should just be kind of given. Make armor saves on majority armor, UNLESS a character wants to take their own save.

Conversely, if that's considered unbalanced, bring back torrent of fire. I was ok with certain models making their own saves because of the volume of fire the unit took. I hate not being able to put commanders or special weapons forward because they'll automatically be the first ones shot.

brother marcus wrote:

 thenoobbomb wrote:
I'd add a rule that tells you all FW is legal.

That would be a stupid move because then all DKOK armies and pre heresy army's couldn't play

Random charge range for me give vehicles an armour save, make walkers tougher ( my contemptor never lasts up to turn 4 maximum)

It'd make IA lists legal. "Oh no, it's legal, we can't play it anymore"?

 thenoobbomb wrote:

brother marcus wrote:

 thenoobbomb wrote:
I'd add a rule that tells you all FW is legal.

That would be a stupid move because then all DKOK armies and pre heresy army's couldn't play

Random charge range for me give vehicles an armour save, make walkers tougher ( my contemptor never lasts up to turn 4 maximum)

It'd make IA lists legal. "Oh no, it's legal, we can't play it anymore"?

I apologise I thought it said illegal

Again sorry I misread

 Mahtamori wrote:

Spoiler:

The 40k vision is to have a simple and fast paced battle system that supports large amounts of models. For this you'd need to avoid complications and cut down on the amount of dice rolling. Units need to be homogenized somewhat while supporting customization.

Altering attack mechanics.
The purpose is to remove unnecessary dice rolls and make each attack roll follow the same mechanic and the same "table". By not having a special instance for each type of attack, but rather homogenising all the steps, you can increase the pace of the game and as such support larger amounts of models in the same time frame.
Ballistics Skill + D6 is compared against Cover.
Weapon Skill + D6 is compared against Weapon Skill + 3.
Strength + D6 is compared against Toughness + Armour.
Each roll has a number of potential modifiers. The goal is to keep the modifiers simple. Armour Piercing statistic is done away with completely and replaced with special rules that can either halve or ignore a model's armour value, similarly poison, flesh bane and armour bane can ignore a model's toughness value. Cover works by directly modifying a model's chance to hit, meaning that seeking cover is of importance even to extremely armoured models.

Homogenising units.
A basic flaw with the current system in terms of handling large number of models is that a unit can have units with more than one armour value (and more than one toughness value). By removing the Independent Character rule and removing differentiating armour values inside units as well as removing the Look Out Sir! mechanic, the wounding process on units can be streamlined.

Cover alterations and line of sight.
By removing true line of sight and making a terraced 2D system for determining line of sight and cover, one can effectively hide important models behind a screen of less important models and therefore make singular models a viable method of representing command models without unduly making them Bolter-Bait.
Additionally, cover needs to be separated between that which is granted by intervening terrain and that which is provided by movement. Certain weapons makes sense ignoring intervening terrain, but those do not necessarily have the projectile velocity to be remotely effective against models that move at very high speed. Conversely weapons with a lock-on system isn't going to care if the model fired upon is traveling at high speed while those weapons may not even be able to shoot at infantry at all.

Overwatch.
Overwatch as a concept is a good one, but it's execution is weird. Of course defenders will fire wildly if assaulted, but this abstraction is represented by their melee attacks. The I go You Go mechanic does not represent some sort of time difference between each army's moves, they happen roughly at the same time, but rather it represents who has the initiative.
Overwatch as such can be replaced with a deliberate mechanic. I see two with a high potential.
Overwatch as a defensive action: A unit may declare overwatch and if it does so it will shoot overwatch against any and all units that assault it during the coming turn. Enemy models assaulting may only move after all overwatch shooting has been concluded.
Overwatch as a tactical action: A unit declaring overwatch will target a specific area. They will shoot on any models moving inside this area until their next turn.

Facing.
Each model has a facing. Models may not gain benefit of cover when shot in the back, they may not shoot at models they can not see, and they receive a penalty on defensive weapon skill when struck from behind. A highly skilled model in melee is going to be able to handle two or three models with the possibility of being so skilled they can't hit him, but if overwhelmed and struck from behind he won't be able to defend himself.
This opens up for tactical positioning, surrounds and so on.

Movement.
Some thing that really bothers me is the weird way movement is handled. A model that assaults can move significantly longer than should he not assault.
Assaulting and running should be treated as the same thing.

Predictable movement.
Each model moves at a predictable pace. You do not roll for running, you do not roll for difficult terrain, etc. Running/assaulting/combat speed doubles your movement range. Certain actions such as turbo-boosting (fast or skimmer or jetbike) or flat-out (fast skimmer or fast jetbike (eldar)) may triple or quadruple speed. Base speed may be model-dependent, but initial thought is to keep it at 6"

Range.
The over all range of weapons need to go down. Alpha striking on turn one from across the battlefield means that unless you have an extraordinary amount of terrain, the player starting second will play at a distinct disadvantage. Not only that, but if that player managed to seize initiative, then his opponent will likely be left out in the open, meaning that the battle may be decided on a single dice roll.
This also since movement speeds in general go down. Typical infantry weapon would be between 12 and 18" while really long ranged weapons go between 36 and 48". This instead of having really long ranged weapons sit at around 60" or more

Phases.
You Go I Go is kept, but individual phases are changed. Each unit has a subset of potential actions, meaning that the separating these into 5 or 6 different phases is not necessary.
Upkeep: This is where morale rolls, mandatory unit movements, reinforcement rolls, and so on go.
Main: This is where all unit reinforcement arrival, unit movement, shooting, psychics etc go.
Melee: This is where assault movement and fighting in close combat go.
This also means that movement sequence can play an important role. Do you activate the Librarian first in order to move into range of the Assault Marines to use Prescience on them or is it more important that the Librarian is not in the way for the Razorback to move forward?

So you want to go back to a slightly modified version 2nd ed? Most of those points were features in that edition. I strongly disagree with reducing weapon ranges even further. 40k ranges make Battletech look realistic. As it is, some troops can move as far as they can shoot, and artillery has the range of a infantry rifle.

-Assaults out of parked vehicles are always disordered charges. Same goes for units that just arrived out of reserve/outflank.

-Open-topped vehicles explode at S3 again.

-First Blood is gone as a secondary.

-Objectives earn your VPs for each turn you control them, then a larger VP bonus if held at the end of the game.

-Charge range is a fixed number based on the unit types, plus a single d6. Charging through terrain halves the fixed number part, rounding down.

-Charge range: Infantry 4, Jump Infantry/MCs 6, Bikes and Beasts 7, Jetbikes 8.

-Move Through Cover counts as Assault Grenades on walkers/MCs.

-You may not overwatch if you are Gone to Ground.

-Only hits that cause wounds force FMCs to take Grounding tests.

-Walkers work from a base AV of 13/13/11.

-Base Hull Points go to 4. Land Raiders and Monoliths get 5.

-Cover saves can be taken against Marketlight hits.

brother marcus wrote:

 thenoobbomb wrote:

brother marcus wrote:

 thenoobbomb wrote:
I'd add a rule that tells you all FW is legal.

That would be a stupid move because then all DKOK armies and pre heresy army's couldn't play

Random charge range for me give vehicles an armour save, make walkers tougher ( my contemptor never lasts up to turn 4 maximum)

It'd make IA lists legal. "Oh no, it's legal, we can't play it anymore"?

I apologise I thought it said illegal

Again sorry I misread

Ah, well, no problem!

I would change trying to make WHFB rules work for a 40k BATTLE game.(IF a team of professional game developers can NOT do it in 15 years, it JUST IS NOT GOING TO WORK.)

Alessio (the lead game developer on 5th ed 40k.) gave up on using fantasy battle rules in space after the first year away from GW plcs influence .(Warpath 1)

Why not replace fantasy battle rules with simple modern battle game rules, (Like the ones Epic Armageddon uses ), which makes make much more sense.

All we need is a more interactive game turn, and DETAILED UNIT INTERACTION.
Rather than ancient army level alternating game turns, with detailed model interaction chopped up and patched badly to get counter intuitive micro and macro management.

I actually really like 6th. I'd change the following:

Fast attack units can assault from reserves.

Assaults when disembarking, assault vehicles and open topped ones allow disembarking if the vehicle moved up to 12".

Units can go on "overwatch" if they don't fire. Allowing their overwatch shots to be at full BS.

Clean up the rules and make it read like a ruleset.

Ignores cover is just -2 to cover.

No unique characters in an allied detachment.

Let psykers pick one power, the roll the rest

No invulns better than 3++ unless the rules specifically says otherwise (like Ghaz).

Battle Brothers can ride in friendly transports.

Let Nids ally with guard, but only allowed to take troops and HQ.

One thing I'd like to see is a change from the "You Go, I Go" turn system to the way units are activated in Bolt Action. For those unfamiliar with this, in Bolt Action each player places a special die that has the orders a unit can do for each unit in his force in a bag with each payer using different colored dice for their army. Then, during the turn, you pull a die from the bag and activate a unit of the player who had their die pulled. If you're using Allies, that player would use 2 different colored dice, one for his main force and one for his allies.

-Assaults out of parked vehicles are always disordered charges. Same goes for units that just arrived out of reserve/outflank.

Alot of your rules kinda screw orks over the way they work.

I do not know how, but either let melee-centric armies have a chance or remove the melee-centric armies. Don't keep them in inferior limbo like now.

 Zathras wrote:
One thing I'd like to see is a change from the "You Go, I Go" turn system to the way units are activated in Bolt Action. For those unfamiliar with this, in Bolt Action each player places a special die that has the orders a unit can do for each unit in his force in a bag with each payer using different colored dice for their army. Then, during the turn, you pull a die from the bag and activate a unit of the player who had their die pulled. If you're using Allies, that player would use 2 different colored dice, one for his main force and one for his allies.

Wow. That's needlessly complex. How about, you move, shoot, assault one unit... I move, shoot, assault one, etc.

I don't care what changes are made, there's one thing that fixes every problem:

OPEN. BETA. TEST.

Done.

Put rules out, cull the community for feedback, revise, test, revise, test... until you have a product that produces no rules quibbles, or ones so small that they can be reviewed later and FAQ'd/errata'd.

 Lobukia wrote:

 Zathras wrote:
One thing I'd like to see is a change from the "You Go, I Go" turn system to the way units are activated in Bolt Action. For those unfamiliar with this, in Bolt Action each player places a special die that has the orders a unit can do for each unit in his force in a bag with each payer using different colored dice for their army. Then, during the turn, you pull a die from the bag and activate a unit of the player who had their die pulled. If you're using Allies, that player would use 2 different colored dice, one for his main force and one for his allies.

Wow. That's needlessly complex. How about, you move, shoot, assault one unit... I move, shoot, assault one, etc.

This ^. I'd prefer something like AT-43's alternating unit activation.

 Zathras wrote:
One thing I'd like to see is a change from the "You Go, I Go" turn system to the way units are activated in Bolt Action. For those unfamiliar with this, in Bolt Action each player places a special die that has the orders a unit can do for each unit in his force in a bag with each payer using different colored dice for their army. Then, during the turn, you pull a die from the bag and activate a unit of the player who had their die pulled. If you're using Allies, that player would use 2 different colored dice, one for his main force and one for his allies.

I like how Deadzone tackled this sort of ruleset - most units have a command value, and the highest one is your current leader (so if your leader gets killed, someone else takes over). The command total is how many units you can activate in a single turn, so you can activate 3, then your opponent gets to activate 3, and so on until everything gets moved. It'd be nice to see less focus on who gets to go first, especially when you've got Imperial Guard and Tau units that can reach out and touch you from across the board. Heck, in Deadzone it's not necessarily beneficial to go first, depending on how terrain is set up.

Open beta playtesting of codices and new editions of the rules.

orkboy2d wrote:
I would either delete the ally rules or at the very least change the rules and matrix.

^Agreed. There are a lot of little things about it that are pretty incongrouous to game balance.

Just to spitball, here's a few ideas I had with it:

-Allied detachments cannot bring unique units. (You want to make your own scenematic game experience where Azrael and Tigirius are fighting alongside each other, that's fine. But for general gameplay? Nah, man.)

-Allied detachments cannot exceed 35% of the total points value for the game listed. I get if people feel like this is too restrictive. However, at the very least, the allied detachment should have to be less points than the primary detachment. The primary detachment should feel like the bulk of the force, always.

-Races without an affinity to psychic powers cannot benefit from friendly psychic powers even if Battle Brothers. If your race literally cannot manifest psychic abilities PERIOD (I am talking fluff reasons like Tau and Necron) then they shouldn't be able to benefit from friendly psychic boons. Go ahead and let ICs join squads of the other race for whatever benefits they can grant otherwise, but I think if your army is balanced enough to be amazing without psychic powers, having access to them when they've already got huge buffs like, say, Markerlights in order to operate without them is overkill and anti-fun.

Alternatively simply make it so Tau and Eldar cannot be battlebrothers as that'd be the simplest way to fix what is the only egregious breaking of this rule.

BUT I DID HAVE ONE VERY GOOD IDEA FOR HELPING 7TH EDITION that is my own.

One of the biggest balancing issues is that not everything launches at once. Rather than do one codex at a time, and severely gimping the first few codexes in an edition while making the last few really good to the point they live and excell in future editions, release them in groups.

Instead of "Codex: Space Marines," "Codex: Dark Angels," "Codex Blood Angels," and "Codex Space Wolves", imagine a world where they'd be released in one mega rule book, which would be about the size and scope of the BRB. It'd serve several purposes.
1) There'd actually have to be some playtesting involved on the part of GW before releasing such a massive undertaking.
2) Codexes that see minor to major overlap from each other would not be markedly inferior in one codex over another despite being in the same edition (I'm looking at you, codex Tactical Marines vs. Dark Angel tacticals).
3) It'd encourage people to start more than one army because they'd have the rules for several all in one place, so GW can't even pretend it'd hurt sales by doing this.
4) It'd encourage GW themselves to actually collaborate harder and better as a cohesive unit rather than simply turning over a species to a single writer and hoping that guy comes up with balanced stuff that also fits the fluff, therefore not creating any pariahs amongst their own ranks (you all know who I am talking about.)

To roll up all the current armies, I see them rolling it out as maybe like 4 codexes. Let's say you do all Space Marines as one Codex Space Marines (so codex marines, DA, BA, and SW), then do codex Imperium of Man (Sisters, Grey Knights, Inquisition, Imperial Guard) then do codex Agents of Destruction which would cover demons, chaos space marines, Necron and Tyranids, and then you'd have Codex Xenos which would cover both regular and Dark Eldar, Tau, and Ork. I leave it up to the fine minds at GW to come up with better names if they decided to do this.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
While I'm at it, I'd completely rework the armor system. I am not sure how, but as it currently stands armor that isn't 4+ or better is literally useless and never comes into play, just about ever.

I'd also rework the vehicle damage tables. Vehicles suffering extra debilitating effects when they suffer penetrating hits, okay fine, whatever. The issue is that 33% to 50% of the time when they do get hit, they blow up right then and there. The all-or-nothing aspect to vehicles makes them a total joke especially with the abundance of monstrous creatures. Right now all the weapons that can reliably damage vehicles are all AP 1 or 2 anyway so the odds are actually in your favor to completely blow up a vehicle should you hit it. Off the top of my head, I think something fair would be to make the table 1-8 rather than 1-6, meaning you could ONLY reach results 7 and 8 by using high AP weaponry.

I also also also think Monstrous Creatures need a change, though it probably isn't what you guys are thinking. The biggest issue to me is the way Smash works. Gaining AP2 for free is obnoxious. It makes every monstrous creature, even ones that should be terrible in close combat due to pathetic weapon skill like a Riptide, super deadly. If you want the AP2 granted by Smash, you actually should have to declare the smash attack. Also, make it so Smashing counts as unwieldy until end of turn. I mean they are getting X2 strength and every other x2 strength weapon in the game save Scorpion's Claws and a handful of relic weapons are all unwieldy. You want that AP2 so you can insta-gib everything in a squad, you should have to give up attacks AND actually risk getting hurt by things.