Blood Angels debate thread: Should we be rolled into Codex: Space Marines?

Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:

No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.

If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

**Thatguyhsagun**

Was a bit tired of looking through the BA wishlist thread only to see a massive debate over rolling it into the nillamarine dex. Figured id help the thread get back on topic by making a new one for said debate.

niv-mizzet wrote:
Anpu42 wrote:
Blacksails wrote:
But once again, I do support improving them. I do understand they're not ideal as they are now, but I also don't think a separate codex would fix that.

And Rolling them into the Space Marine Codex does.

What is wrong with a separate codex, no one is going to hold a bolt gun to your head and make you buy it unless you are a Blood Angels Player. Even if you are and you find you don’t like it you can just not buy it and use a “Count-As” with something from Codex: Space Marine.

Iknowright?

It's like hearing guys who like chicken sandwiches wanting hamburgers removed from the menu. It's weird.

A lot of those posts miss several things. Some missed their psychic powers, some didn't bother to address their EIGHT (and a half...tycho...) special characters, some missed unique BA units, some missed unique wargear selection, some apparently want to give us fast vehicles for free over other marines, not knowing our wheels cost more (tempting!)...Turns out some of the people saying "BA are just red marines!" don't actually know them very well.

If they were rolled in, a lot of the units in C:SM would have little footnotes that had "only available to chapter tactics: Blood Angels" written at the bottom of the page, like infernus pistols, more melta availability, special dread weapons... It's also a founding chapter, and has many known descendant chapters, so the painting section of the new combined C:SM would have to show those off too.

Tellin ya, if they had all their options they had now, but were already in the general SM codex, you'd constantly hear people saying how the BA take up too much room and necessitate too many little footnotes and rules alterations and need their own book. Some people might even go so far as to nickname the codex "codex BA and friends."

Blacksails wrote:
AlmightyWalrus wrote:

I can agree with that (minus the separate Codex part). It's not that I think it's undoable, it's just I've not seen it done in a convincing way yet. The issue, in my opinion, is that Vanilla marines has more of a shooting slant whereas BA, BT, and SW have an assault slant. Trying to cram in melee armies in a shooting Codex and only changing some CTs isn't going to be enough.

Well in my perfect world of rainbows and unicorns, the vanilla codex would have a balanced melee/shooting options. Things like Vanguard and Assault squads should be as viable as Sternguard and devs. Now, part of that lies in the overarching edition, but even in the book, there isn't a whole lot that a few point changes and a rules tweak won't fix. Hell, JustDave's 5th ed fandex did a pretty good job at that.

Then again, as they are currently, BA and SW are played with shooty heavy, so they need fixing anyways. I just don't buy the idea that they need a codex to be balanced, and that rolling them in would be just as viable a fix.

But the details of that are best served for the proposed rules section anyways.

Anyways, no need to bite people's heads off for wanting the codex to be rolled in. GW just has a habit of good ideas but awful implementation. BTs are no exception to this, and its unfortunate, but nothing a dedicated mind or two couldn't fix in the proposed area.

P.S. I think your Land Raider proposal was fairly balanced.

Personally i think the BA have too much unique wargear and options (more so than DA and on par with wolves) and should therefor have their own rules. Rolling us into the basic dex would slam us in the face with a nerfbat or just drop what it is thet makes the Blood Angels unique. Debate on!

**niv-mizzet**

Oh hey, a separate thread. Brilliant show old chap. And as I'm in the quotes I guess I don't have much further to add.

**TheCustomLime**

The problem with having separate Marine codices is that there is flimsy justification for doing so when they share a good portion of their units with each other. You are basically buying a different book just to get more wargear and a couple of different rules. If Blood Angels was rolled into Codex: Space Marines what would they lose? Being on the front cover? They would be updated every time C:SM was so that is a nice boon to the Blood Angel players.

To represent a Blood Angels force accurately all you'd need is a Chapter Tactic that unlocks assault marines as troops, the unique Blood Angel units and a special rule or two.

**Thatguyhsagun**

TheCustomLime wrote:
The problem with having separate Marine codices is that there is flimsy justification for doing so when they share a good portion of their units with each other. You are basically buying a different book just to get more wargear and a couple of different rules. If Blood Angels was rolled into Codex: Space Marines what would they lose? Being on the front cover? They would be updated every time C:SM was so that is a nice boon to the Blood Angel players.

To represent a Blood Angels force accurately all you'd need is a Chapter Tactic that unlocks assault marines as troops, the unique Blood Angel units and a special rule or two.

I take it you dont play BA? i keep hering the "CT and some special rules" but in reality it would take much, much more than that. Special units, special characters (much as the UM, maybe more) multiple special wargear options and special vehicle rules. We share the basic units with C:SM like scouts tac's ASM's and devs, but we have as many special units as we do marine units. Its like saying you could wrap up the wolves into the nilla dex honestly.

**AtoMaki**

Thatguyhsagun wrote:
TheCustomLime wrote:
The problem with having separate Marine codices is that there is flimsy justification for doing so when they share a good portion of their units with each other. You are basically buying a different book just to get more wargear and a couple of different rules. If Blood Angels was rolled into Codex: Space Marines what would they lose? Being on the front cover? They would be updated every time C:SM was so that is a nice boon to the Blood Angel players.

To represent a Blood Angels force accurately all you'd need is a Chapter Tactic that unlocks assault marines as troops, the unique Blood Angel units and a special rule or two.

I take it you dont play BA? i keep hering the "CT and some special rules" but in reality it would take much, much more than that. Special units, special characters (much as the UM, maybe more) multiple special wargear options and special vehicle rules. We share the basic units with C:SM like scouts tac's ASM's and devs, but we have as many special units as we do marine units. Its like saying you could wrap up the wolves into the nilla dex honestly.

And you can get all those special units/wargear/rules/characters/whatever in a nice Blood Angels Supplement. IMHO, even the Space Wolves (and the Dark Angerls too) should be rolled into the SM codex and after that everyone could have his very own Supplement to bring a full BA/BT/DA/SW army with all the special Chapter-specific shenanigans. This way, everyone wins: we get rid the "Codex: Special Snowflake Marines" effect and BA/BT/DA/SW players will have a core army selection that won't degrade after each SM release.

**A GumyBear**

TheCustomLime wrote:
The problem with having separate Marine codices is that there is flimsy justification for doing so when they share a good portion of their units with each other. You are basically buying a different book just to get more wargear and a couple of different rules. If Blood Angels was rolled into Codex: Space Marines what would they lose? Being on the front cover? They would be updated every time C:SM was so that is a nice boon to the Blood Angel players.

To represent a Blood Angels force accurately all you'd need is a Chapter Tactic that unlocks assault marines as troops, the unique Blood Angel units and a special rule or two.

Except the blood angels have a plethora of extra things that would need to be added (a new predator variant, 3 dread variants, sanguinary guard, sanguinary priests, the ton of special characters, all the upgrade options like infernus pistols, death company, red thirst, all of their vehicles costing more to become fast vehicles etc.) And it would clutter the whole book with BA and it would be like last eds SM dex where it was just ultramarines everywhere and very little support for other chapters. BA are just far too unique to be rolled into the SM dex, same with SW and DA (although DA could have been rolled in before their 6th dex but now not so much since they got a lot of unique units with the update)

**TheCustomLime**

Thatguyhsagun wrote:
TheCustomLime wrote:
The problem with having separate Marine codices is that there is flimsy justification for doing so when they share a good portion of their units with each other. You are basically buying a different book just to get more wargear and a couple of different rules. If Blood Angels was rolled into Codex: Space Marines what would they lose? Being on the front cover? They would be updated every time C:SM was so that is a nice boon to the Blood Angel players.

To represent a Blood Angels force accurately all you'd need is a Chapter Tactic that unlocks assault marines as troops, the unique Blood Angel units and a special rule or two.

I take it you dont play BA? i keep hearing the "CT and some special rules" but in reality it would take much, much more than that. Special units, special characters (much as the UM, maybe more) multiple special wargear options and special vehicle rules. We share the basic units with C:SM like scouts tac's ASM's and devs, but we have as many special units as we do marine units. Its like saying you could wrap up the wolves into the nilla dex honestly.

I counted 13 special units and characters. While this may be a lot it really should be only an additional page or two at the most. As for special rules and wargear that's also an additional page or two. I understand that Blood Angels do not like the idea of having their army being demoted to the regular codex but, if done properly, there should be no real difference. And, as above, you can roll some of the wargear and special characters into a supplement called "Angels of Death" or something.

**A GumyBear**

AtoMaki wrote:
Thatguyhsagun wrote:
TheCustomLime wrote:
The problem with having separate Marine codices is that there is flimsy justification for doing so when they share a good portion of their units with each other. You are basically buying a different book just to get more wargear and a couple of different rules. If Blood Angels was rolled into Codex: Space Marines what would they lose? Being on the front cover? They would be updated every time C:SM was so that is a nice boon to the Blood Angel players.

To represent a Blood Angels force accurately all you'd need is a Chapter Tactic that unlocks assault marines as troops, the unique Blood Angel units and a special rule or two.

I take it you dont play BA? i keep hering the "CT and some special rules" but in reality it would take much, much more than that. Special units, special characters (much as the UM, maybe more) multiple special wargear options and special vehicle rules. We share the basic units with C:SM like scouts tac's ASM's and devs, but we have as many special units as we do marine units. Its like saying you could wrap up the wolves into the nilla dex honestly.

And you can get all those special units/wargear/rules/characters/whatever in a nice Blood Angels Supplement. IMHO, even the Space Wolves (and the Dark Angerls too) should be rolled into the SM codex and after that everyone could have his very own Supplement to bring a full BA/BT/DA/SW army with all the special Chapter-specific shenanigans. This way, everyone wins: we get rid the "Codex: Special Snowflake Marines" effect and BA/BT/DA/SW players will have a core army selection that won't degrade after each SM release.

Except then people would have to pay roughly $150 since they would need to raise the price of the current SM dex and then have to buy their supplement so its the same as having their own dex except far cheaper and more efficient since they dont have to pay for an extra hundred pages in rules and unit entries that they wont be using

**JubbJubbz**

I think BA should have their own dex and their current dex is a pretty good balance of having enough unique stuff to warrant it being separate but at the same time still being recognizable as loyalist marines. Any less different and they could be rolled together, anymore different then it wouldn't make much sense thematically.

**Furyou Miko**

If the Ultramarines can get away with having seven special characters in the book, so can the Blood Angels. Maybe it would even encourage some extra characters for the other chapters, or... who knows? Drop the Smurfs down to 2 characters in C:SM as well then do Supplements for them.

As it is, the Supplements system is being wasted.

Of course, the real reason not to do it is that the Black Templars players will be even more insufferable afterwards. Not only will they gloat about how it happening to them first somehow makes them superior, they'll also whine about how Blood Angels do the Templars job but better.

As for the special rules and units, you just strip out inferno pistols and give everyone the hand flamer option. Inferno pistols are supposed to be insanely rare, it's madness that the Blood Angels can spam them. Make the Bhaal Predator, Death Company and FuriLibby unique units, Crusader style, and then make Lucius-pattern Engines a purchasable upgrade for BA tactics only.

Thus opening the door to the other chapters having the potential for unique upgrades as well!

**Thatguyhsagun**

TheCustomLime wrote:
Thatguyhsagun wrote:
TheCustomLime wrote:
The problem with having separate Marine codices is that there is flimsy justification for doing so when they share a good portion of their units with each other. You are basically buying a different book just to get more wargear and a couple of different rules. If Blood Angels was rolled into Codex: Space Marines what would they lose? Being on the front cover? They would be updated every time C:SM was so that is a nice boon to the Blood Angel players.

To represent a Blood Angels force accurately all you'd need is a Chapter Tactic that unlocks assault marines as troops, the unique Blood Angel units and a special rule or two.

I take it you dont play BA? i keep hearing the "CT and some special rules" but in reality it would take much, much more than that. Special units, special characters (much as the UM, maybe more) multiple special wargear options and special vehicle rules. We share the basic units with C:SM like scouts tac's ASM's and devs, but we have as many special units as we do marine units. Its like saying you could wrap up the wolves into the nilla dex honestly.

I counted 13 special units and characters. While this may be a lot it really should be only an additional page or two at the most. As for special rules and wargear that's also an additional page or two. I understand that Blood Angels do not like the idea of having their army being demoted to the regular codex but, if done properly, there should be no real difference. And, as above, you can roll some of the wargear and special characters into a supplement called "Angels of Death" or something.

how is a supplement different than its own dex aside from the fact we have to pay for both to use our army?

**TheCustomLime**

A GumyBear wrote:
AtoMaki wrote:
Thatguyhsagun wrote:
TheCustomLime wrote:
The problem with having separate Marine codices is that there is flimsy justification for doing so when they share a good portion of their units with each other. You are basically buying a different book just to get more wargear and a couple of different rules. If Blood Angels was rolled into Codex: Space Marines what would they lose? Being on the front cover? They would be updated every time C:SM was so that is a nice boon to the Blood Angel players.

To represent a Blood Angels force accurately all you'd need is a Chapter Tactic that unlocks assault marines as troops, the unique Blood Angel units and a special rule or two.

I take it you dont play BA? i keep hering the "CT and some special rules" but in reality it would take much, much more than that. Special units, special characters (much as the UM, maybe more) multiple special wargear options and special vehicle rules. We share the basic units with C:SM like scouts tac's ASM's and devs, but we have as many special units as we do marine units. Its like saying you could wrap up the wolves into the nilla dex honestly.

And you can get all those special units/wargear/rules/characters/whatever in a nice Blood Angels Supplement. IMHO, even the Space Wolves (and the Dark Angerls too) should be rolled into the SM codex and after that everyone could have his very own Supplement to bring a full BA/BT/DA/SW army with all the special Chapter-specific shenanigans. This way, everyone wins: we get rid the "Codex: Special Snowflake Marines" effect and BA/BT/DA/SW players will have a core army selection that won't degrade after each SM release.

Except then people would have to pay roughly $150 since they would need to raise the price of the current SM dex and then have to buy their supplement so its the same as having their own dex except far cheaper and more efficient since they dont have to pay for an extra hundred pages in rules and unit entries that they wont be using

2-3 pages won't double the price of a book. I don't think Games Workshop is really that stupid to do such a thing especially since Space Marines are the "Little Timmy" army. The other issue with your argument is that it could apply to any army with a variant army supplement like Farsight Enclaves. Why do Farsight Enclaves player have to pay $100 to get his army? Why can't they just get their own codex?

**Thatguyhsagun**

Furyou Miko wrote:
If the Ultramarines can get away with having seven special characters in the book, so can the Blood Angels. Maybe it would even encourage some extra characters for the other chapters, or... who knows? Drop the Smurfs down to 2 characters in C:SM as well then do Supplements for them.

As it is, the Supplements system is being wasted.

Of course, the real reason not to do it is that the Black Templars players will be even more insufferable afterwards. Not only will they gloat about how it happening to them first somehow makes them superior, they'll also whine about how Blood Angels do the Templars job but better.

As for the special rules and units, you just strip out inferno pistols and give everyone the hand flamer option. Inferno pistols are supposed to be insanely rare, it's madness that the Blood Angels can spam them. Make the Bhaal Predator, Death Company and FuriLibby unique units, Crusader style, and then make Lucius-pattern Engines a purchasable upgrade for BA tactics only.

Thus opening the door to the other chapters having the potential for unique upgrades as well!

Now i normally find myself agreeing with you miko but not here. Infernus pistols yes i could see being limited. Not dropped alltogether however. The dispersing of all of our gear throughout the codex as well? that seems a bit OTT. Giving what makes BA their own army to any other army while unlocking them is like giving any army access to 4 meltas in a single squad. Thats the sisters niche and should be respected. It would take too much effort to roll the BA into the marine dex and we'd likely end up with something like the BT faced, but worse as we have many more unique options than the templars.

**niv-mizzet**

TheCustomLime wrote:
The problem with having separate Marine codices is that there is flimsy justification for doing so when they share a good portion of their units with each other. You are basically buying a different book just to get more wargear and a couple of different rules. If Blood Angels was rolled into Codex: Space Marines what would they lose? Being on the front cover? They would be updated every time C:SM was so that is a nice boon to the Blood Angel players.

To represent a Blood Angels force accurately all you'd need is a Chapter Tactic that unlocks assault marines as troops, the unique Blood Angel units and a special rule or two.

I'll try and make a list right quick for you.

Red thirst, descent of angels, and assault squads as troops needs to be addressed.

A full set of Blood Angel theme psychic powers need to be addressed, and yes, we do need them. If Mephiston can't take wings of sanguinius, he's done.

8.5 special characters: Dante (includes make sanguinary guard troops rule,) Tycho/DC Tycho, Mephiston, Astorath (includes multiple death companies rule,) Seth, Corbulo, Sanguinor, Lemartes.

Special units: Sanguinary guard, Death Company, Sanguinary priests, Baal Predator, Reclusiarch, DC dreadnought, Furioso Dreadnought (they do have different loadout selections than ironclads,) Furioso Librarian, Honour guard with packs instead of arty armor, and a Sanguinary Novitiate. Chaplain as an elite choice instead of HQ.

Wargear: Angelus boltguns, infernus pistols, blood talons for dreadnoughts, bloodstrike missiles, melta availability on ASM's.

Vehicle rules: Rhinos, Razorbacks, Predators, Whirlwinds, Baal Predators, and Vindicators are all fast, and have different costs than normal SM versions.

Painting: BA and their successor chapters' paint schemes. Well-known ones that at least need a picture are Angels Sanguine, Flesh Tearers, Lamenters, Angels Encarmine, Knights of Blood, Blood Drinkers, and Angels Vermilion. Oh and of course all those unique units above need pictures, as well as the BA version of many of the other "shared" units.

Fluff: BA have a slightly different career path for their marines, so the "shared" units need to mention how BA does theirs differently, then each unique unit needs its own fluff page.

Think that's roughly it. Have fun with all those little footnotes you have to add to C:SM's options to get BA to work.

**Thatguyhsagun**

TheCustomLime wrote:
A GumyBear wrote:
AtoMaki wrote:
Thatguyhsagun wrote:
TheCustomLime wrote:
The problem with having separate Marine codices is that there is flimsy justification for doing so when they share a good portion of their units with each other. You are basically buying a different book just to get more wargear and a couple of different rules. If Blood Angels was rolled into Codex: Space Marines what would they lose? Being on the front cover? They would be updated every time C:SM was so that is a nice boon to the Blood Angel players.

To represent a Blood Angels force accurately all you'd need is a Chapter Tactic that unlocks assault marines as troops, the unique Blood Angel units and a special rule or two.

I take it you dont play BA? i keep hering the "CT and some special rules" but in reality it would take much, much more than that. Special units, special characters (much as the UM, maybe more) multiple special wargear options and special vehicle rules. We share the basic units with C:SM like scouts tac's ASM's and devs, but we have as many special units as we do marine units. Its like saying you could wrap up the wolves into the nilla dex honestly.

And you can get all those special units/wargear/rules/characters/whatever in a nice Blood Angels Supplement. IMHO, even the Space Wolves (and the Dark Angerls too) should be rolled into the SM codex and after that everyone could have his very own Supplement to bring a full BA/BT/DA/SW army with all the special Chapter-specific shenanigans. This way, everyone wins: we get rid the "Codex: Special Snowflake Marines" effect and BA/BT/DA/SW players will have a core army selection that won't degrade after each SM release.

Except then people would have to pay roughly $150 since they would need to raise the price of the current SM dex and then have to buy their supplement so its the same as having their own dex except far cheaper and more efficient since they dont have to pay for an extra hundred pages in rules and unit entries that they wont be using

2-3 pages won't double the price of a book. I don't think Games Workshop is really that stupid to do such a thing especially since Space Marines are the "Little Timmy" army. The other issue with your argument is that it could apply to any army with a variant army supplement like Farsight Enclaves. Why do Farsight Enclaves player have to pay $100 to get his army? Why can't they just get their own codex?

the difference is Farsight Enclaves never had their own dex or vastly expanded background. Say you take it and just roll it into the Tau dex, It just wouldnt ever play the same. The BA have been their own people with more special rules, units and wargear than any other marine dex apart from the wolves and chaos.

**A GumyBear**

It will be far more than just 2-3 pages for the book since they will have to include all the unit entries and fluff for the army and since you included SW and DA in your post there would be a tonof fluff and unit entries etc. to add. And yes if you are just going to create a $50 expansion to play an army a different way why not include all the unit entries needed to play the army and basically make it codex farsight enclave? Its basically the same thing except just with vaguely different rules and different fluff. The only reason not to flesh out the farsight enclave and make it more like its own codex is because GW doesnt want to since they would rather you spend $100 to play different tau instead of normal tau.

**AtoMaki**

TheCustomLime wrote:
A GumyBear wrote:

Spoiler:

AtoMaki wrote:
Thatguyhsagun wrote:
TheCustomLime wrote:
The problem with having separate Marine codices is that there is flimsy justification for doing so when they share a good portion of their units with each other. You are basically buying a different book just to get more wargear and a couple of different rules. If Blood Angels was rolled into Codex: Space Marines what would they lose? Being on the front cover? They would be updated every time C:SM was so that is a nice boon to the Blood Angel players.

To represent a Blood Angels force accurately all you'd need is a Chapter Tactic that unlocks assault marines as troops, the unique Blood Angel units and a special rule or two.

I take it you dont play BA? i keep hering the "CT and some special rules" but in reality it would take much, much more than that. Special units, special characters (much as the UM, maybe more) multiple special wargear options and special vehicle rules. We share the basic units with C:SM like scouts tac's ASM's and devs, but we have as many special units as we do marine units. Its like saying you could wrap up the wolves into the nilla dex honestly.

And you can get all those special units/wargear/rules/characters/whatever in a nice Blood Angels Supplement. IMHO, even the Space Wolves (and the Dark Angerls too) should be rolled into the SM codex and after that everyone could have his very own Supplement to bring a full BA/BT/DA/SW army with all the special Chapter-specific shenanigans. This way, everyone wins: we get rid the "Codex: Special Snowflake Marines" effect and BA/BT/DA/SW players will have a core army selection that won't degrade after each SM release.

Except then people would have to pay roughly $150 since they would need to raise the price of the current SM dex and then have to buy their supplement so its the same as having their own dex except far cheaper and more efficient since they dont have to pay for an extra hundred pages in rules and unit entries that they wont be using

2-3 pages won't double the price of a book. I don't think Games Workshop is really that stupid to do such a thing especially since Space Marines are the "Little Timmy" army. The other issue with your argument is that it could apply to any army with a variant army supplement like Farsight Enclaves. Why do Farsight Enclaves player have to pay $100 to get his army? Why can't they just get their own codex?

Pretty much this. With the addition that with the existence of Free Market on the Internet, you don't have to buy those books to have them. IfyouknowwhatImean

.

**Furyou Miko**

Thatguyhsagun wrote:

Now i normally find myself agreeing with you miko but not here. Infernus pistols yes i could see being limited. Not dropped alltogether however. The dispersing of all of our gear throughout the codex as well? that seems a bit OTT. Giving what makes BA their own army to any other army while unlocking them is like giving any army access to 4 meltas in a single squad. Thats the sisters niche and should be respected. It would take too much effort to roll the BA into the marine dex and we'd likely end up with something like the BT faced, but worse as we have many more unique options than the templars.

Except that Hand Flamers aren't the Blood Angels' niche. They're a piece of extremely common, generic wargear that has fallen out of favour with codex design for three editions and is only just being brought back into common usage. Inferno Pistols and Hand Flamers are the only two widely-available pieces of wargear that are semi-unique to Blood Angels. Everything else (Glaives Encarmine, Blood Chalice, etc) are unique to their specialist models. It's not like I suggested giving everyone access to Lucius Engines.

**Poly Ranger**

BT for example have Crusader squads that are different, CT and 2 spec characters.
We have:
-Multiple spec characters.
-Reclusiarch
-Libbys with access to different powers
-Different spec war gear/standards
-Priests
-Honour guard with different equipment options (jump pack but lack of relic blades comes to mind) with a 3+
-Sanguinary Guard
-Furioso dreads
-Libby dreads
-Death company
-Death company dreads
-Baal Predators
-Dedicated transport Land raiders
-Dreads in Heavy Support without a techmarine to unlock
-Red thirst
-Fast tanks
-Decent of Angels
-Deep striking land raiders
-Different rules for Vanguard Veterans
-Different missiles for Storm Ravens
-Chaplains as Elites
-Assault marines as troops

We don't have:
-CTs
-Thunderfire cannons
-Hunters
-Stalkers
-Ironclads
-Master of the forge
-Legion of the damned
-Honour guard with a 2+ and relic blades
-Centurion assault squads
-Centurion Devestator squad.

NO! We cannot be rolled into the vanilla dex with a CT and a couple of extra units. We are an army in its own right, totally seperate from C:SM for good reason.

**TheCustomLime**

niv-mizzet wrote:
TheCustomLime wrote:
The problem with having separate Marine codices is that there is flimsy justification for doing so when they share a good portion of their units with each other. You are basically buying a different book just to get more wargear and a couple of different rules. If Blood Angels was rolled into Codex: Space Marines what would they lose? Being on the front cover? They would be updated every time C:SM was so that is a nice boon to the Blood Angel players.

To represent a Blood Angels force accurately all you'd need is a Chapter Tactic that unlocks assault marines as troops, the unique Blood Angel units and a special rule or two.

I'll try and make a list right quick for you.

Red thirst, descent of angels, and assault squads as troops needs to be addressed.

A full set of Blood Angel theme psychic powers need to be addressed, and yes, we do need them. If Mephiston can't take wings of sanguinius, he's done.

8.5 special characters: Dante (includes make sanguinary guard troops rule,) Tycho/DC Tycho, Mephiston, Astorath (includes multiple death companies rule,) Seth, Corbulo, Sanguinor, Lemartes.

Special units: Sanguinary guard, Death Company, Sanguinary priests, Baal Predator, Reclusiarch, DC dreadnought, Furioso Dreadnought (they do have different loadout selections than ironclads,) Furioso Librarian, Honour guard with packs instead of arty armor, and a Sanguinary Novitiate. Chaplain as an elite choice instead of HQ.

Wargear: Angelus boltguns, infernus pistols, blood talons for dreadnoughts, bloodstrike missiles, melta availability on ASM's.

Vehicle rules: Rhinos, Razorbacks, Predators, Whirlwinds, Baal Predators, and Vindicators are all fast, and have different costs than normal SM versions.

Painting: BA and their successor chapters' paint schemes. Well-known ones that at least need a picture are Angels Sanguine, Flesh Tearers, Lamenters, Angels Encarmine, Knights of Blood, Blood Drinkers, and Angels Vermilion. Oh and of course all those unique units above need pictures, as well as the BA version of many of the other "shared" units.

Fluff: BA have a slightly different career path for their marines, so the "shared" units need to mention how BA does theirs differently, then each unique unit needs its own fluff page.

Think that's roughly it. Have fun with all those little footnotes you have to add to C:SM's options to get BA to work.

Well, I will address your points in reverse order. Fluff: There are 6 founding legions with their own way of doing things. What makes Blood Angels so special that each generic units needs their own little footnote for them? Just put it in a supplement or something.

Paint: One page or two should be enough.

Vehicle rules: Chapter tactics cover this nicely. Just add a blurb that says "All non land raider tanks gain fast".

Special wargear: As Furyou said.

Special units: The baal predator can just be a predator variant that you can only take if you use BA CT. Same for the other units and BA CT can allow you to take AM as troops. As for the SC I would remove a lot of them and throw them in a supplement. Same for the special powers.

**Poly Ranger**

TheCustomLime wrote:
niv-mizzet wrote:
TheCustomLime wrote:
The problem with having separate Marine codices is that there is flimsy justification for doing so when they share a good portion of their units with each other. You are basically buying a different book just to get more wargear and a couple of different rules. If Blood Angels was rolled into Codex: Space Marines what would they lose? Being on the front cover? They would be updated every time C:SM was so that is a nice boon to the Blood Angel players.

To represent a Blood Angels force accurately all you'd need is a Chapter Tactic that unlocks assault marines as troops, the unique Blood Angel units and a special rule or two.

I'll try and make a list right quick for you.

Red thirst, descent of angels, and assault squads as troops needs to be addressed.

A full set of Blood Angel theme psychic powers need to be addressed, and yes, we do need them. If Mephiston can't take wings of sanguinius, he's done.

8.5 special characters: Dante (includes make sanguinary guard troops rule,) Tycho/DC Tycho, Mephiston, Astorath (includes multiple death companies rule,) Seth, Corbulo, Sanguinor, Lemartes.

Special units: Sanguinary guard, Death Company, Sanguinary priests, Baal Predator, Reclusiarch, DC dreadnought, Furioso Dreadnought (they do have different loadout selections than ironclads,) Furioso Librarian, Honour guard with packs instead of arty armor, and a Sanguinary Novitiate. Chaplain as an elite choice instead of HQ.

Wargear: Angelus boltguns, infernus pistols, blood talons for dreadnoughts, bloodstrike missiles, melta availability on ASM's.

Vehicle rules: Rhinos, Razorbacks, Predators, Whirlwinds, Baal Predators, and Vindicators are all fast, and have different costs than normal SM versions.

Painting: BA and their successor chapters' paint schemes. Well-known ones that at least need a picture are Angels Sanguine, Flesh Tearers, Lamenters, Angels Encarmine, Knights of Blood, Blood Drinkers, and Angels Vermilion. Oh and of course all those unique units above need pictures, as well as the BA version of many of the other "shared" units.

Fluff: BA have a slightly different career path for their marines, so the "shared" units need to mention how BA does theirs differently, then each unique unit needs its own fluff page.

Think that's roughly it. Have fun with all those little footnotes you have to add to C:SM's options to get BA to work.

Well, I will address your points in reverse order. Fluff: There are 6 founding legions with their own way of doing things. What makes Blood Angels so special that each generic units needs their own little footnote for them? Just put it in a supplement or something.

Paint: One page or two should be enough.

Vehicle rules: Chapter tactics cover this nicely. Just add a blurb that says "All non land raider tanks gain fast".

Special wargear: As Furyou said.

Special units: The baal predator can just be a predator variant that you can only take if you use BA CT. Same for the other units and BA CT can allow you to take AM as troops. As for the SC I would remove a lot of them and throw them in a supplement. Same for the special powers.

What about Death Company, Death Company dreads, Sanguinary guard, jp honour guard, furioso dreads, libby dreads, red thirst, decent of angels, dedicated transport land raiders, Priests, Reclisiarch's, divination librarians, elite slot chaplains and scout on the baals?

**Boniface**

What about have a supplement to codex marines which includes some unique bits and units.
Then give chapter tactics and FOC changes and done.

I think this should also be done for DA and SW too.

Although doing this could lead to codex marines.
Supplements required:
Dark Angels
Blood Angels
Ultramarines
Space wolves
Salamanders
Iron hands
Imperial fists
Raven guard
White scars
Black Templar
Etc.

Which has it's advantages and disadvantages.

**Furyou Miko**

DT Land Raiders are not iconic, Red Thirst and DoA are Chapter Tactics fodder, as are Divination Librarians (SFR: Mantis Warriors), Sanguinary Guard are just Honour Guard who come with relic blades, Furioso Dreadnoughts are already part of the main codex as they were originally conceptualised, Librarian Dreadnoughts should be available to everyone anyway, Priests are just variant Apothecaries and don't need special rules, Reclusiarchs - the Black Templars had them, too! - and the other two have precedent as being included as "Only this Chapter may take these" units.

Could easily have Death Company and Bhaal Predators as "Only armies with CT: Blood Angels may take this unit", just like Crusaders and Black Templars.

**FirePainter**

With regards to psychic powers it is of note that of all the 6th edition dexes: DA have 1 unique power and thats on a SC, SM have none, Chaos has a bunch, and tyranids have their own table. So far no loyalist marines have had any special powers outside the BRB why do BA NEED to have unique powers?

**kronk**

I honestly don't care, either way, but you should add a poll to this thread!

Edit: Double post!

**Poly Ranger**

The thing is DA, SW and BA are massively different from the c:sm compared to those other ex legions. They play completely differently on the table top. That variety adds much to the game. To roll them all in to one takes so much away. BA would need FAR more different rules and unit entries compared to the smurfs.
Apart from the baseline stats of the basic troops they are completely different armies. They just happen to share the name 'space marine'.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

FirePainter wrote:
With regards to psychic powers it is of note that of all the 6th edition dexes: DA have 1 unique power and thats on a SC, SM have none, Chaos has a bunch, and tyranids have their own table. So far no loyalist marines have had any special powers outside the BRB why do BA NEED to have unique powers?

Wings of sanguinius is essential for mephiston and libby dreads.
Shield of sanguinius is a staple power in many lists and is often essential to survivability when trying to get across the board.
Sword of sanguinius adds a lot to the options of a librarian, being able to go st10 is massive.
Fear of darkness laced around an army is a strategy all of its own.
Blood rage is a power that really helps BA in assault.
Access to Divination is a huge advantage for BA too.

**Vaktathi**

I wish BA had been rolled into C:SM. They're still rather codex adherent in chapter structure and operation. Most of their stuff would have been very easy to integrate. Descent of Angels could have been their Chapter Tactics, Baal Preds could have just been a BA chapter tactics specific weapon swap for a Predator, the Furioso dread at this point is a needless differentiation on an Ironclad and originally was just a 2x DCCW dread. Only a couple units would have needed their own unit entry, plus the characters.

They already share 80% of the same weapons, wargear, stats, units, etc. and most of the rest is simple weapon or USR swaps and are nowhere near as different as some are making them out to be.

Seriously, it would have been turbo simple.

The primary reason they have their own book is tradition/inertia and to have another MEQ release to keep those kits selling throughout and edition cycle.

**Poly Ranger**

Furyou Miko wrote:
DT Land Raiders are not iconic, Red Thirst and DoA are Chapter Tactics fodder, as are Divination Librarians (SFR: Mantis Warriors), Sanguinary Guard are just Honour Guard who come with relic blades, Furioso Dreadnoughts are already part of the main codex as they were originally conceptualised, Librarian Dreadnoughts should be available to everyone anyway, Priests are just variant Apothecaries and don't need special rules, Reclusiarchs - the Black Templars had them, too! - and the other two have precedent as being included as "Only this Chapter may take these" units.

Could easily have Death Company and Bhaal Predators as "Only armies with CT: Blood Angels may take this unit", just like Crusaders and Black Templars.

So CT BA includes:
-Red Thirst
-DOA
-Access to priests with wargear options (3 for 1 in elites)
-Honour guard with jps
-Access to blood talons or frag cannons on ironclad (furios dreads)
-Fast tanks
-Assault marines as troops
-Divination on librarians
-Special uniys inc;
-Death co
-Reclusiarch
-Baal Preds with scout

I can see other vanilla players getting annoyed at our extensive list of CT...

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh and death co dreads...

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Believe me I have tried to take my BA as a 'counts as' Raven guard.
1.) I cant yake half the uniys I own as they don't even exist in c:sm
2.) My tactics totally change as assault marines are no longer scoring and I have no fast tanks any more.
3.) My assault squads do not have furious charge, 5+ fnp and a 5+ cover save in the open so are therefore pants.
4.) I cannot take special characters.

I want to play BA like BA play and with C:SM this is impossible UNLESS you put in extensive amounts of CT, Spec characters and extra units that would just make other chapter players jealous.
It just doesnt work!

**Maniac_nmt**

TheCustomLime wrote:

2-3 pages won't double the price of a book. I don't think Games Workshop is really that stupid to do such a thing especially since Space Marines are the "Little Timmy" army. The other issue with your argument is that it could apply to any army with a variant army supplement like Farsight Enclaves. Why do Farsight Enclaves player have to pay $100 to get his army? Why can't they just get their own codex?

Why did the Farsight Enclaves even need a supplement (or why would they need a stand alone codex)? Would it have been that hard to roll them into Codex: Tau Empire and call it a day? Not really, but it wouldn't have made GW that much more money. Basically one paragraph of rules, a few bits of special wargear, and some special characters.

Could have easily been done without the supplement given you could already field a special Farsight squad with the codex as is.

**MajorStoffer**

If the supplement system wasn't the complete waste that it is (and the lack of releases in quite some time is telling), BA would be a perfect choice for a "proper" supplement.

Their core units and doctrine is shared with C:SM, and while they have a fair number of special units, these are a byproduct of a questionable decision by GW, in my opinion, to make various marines more divergent to sell more MEQ kits. However, with a supplement you could keep all your diversity, and set a model for what a supplement *should* look like; lots of special characters you can convert or use from existant models, a fair number of unique units, and restricted access to some units in the core book.

However, this is based on an important premise; supplements which were actually worth it. The reality of GW is, however, BA would lose a lot by any of GW's methods of "consolidation," they are more, kit wise, divergent than BT, and until GW learns how to behave like an intelligent company, they ought to have their own book until GW is ready to take supplements seriously.