Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

When you mindshackle a monstrous creature, can you make it Smash Attack itself? If no, then why not?

Thanks.

Do mineshakles allow you to make it attack itself? If so I'd say yes.

Yes, d3 attacks vs. the unit. If there's only critter in the unit, it attacks itself.

If yes... it's d3 attacks. Would smash reduce the attack by half? What if you rolled a one or two?

I say no as smash is not the benefit or ablity of the MCs "weapon"

 whembly wrote:
If yes... it's d3 attacks. Would smash reduce the attack by half? What if you rolled a one or two?

Half rounded up so 1 or 2 would both be 1 IIRC.

MSS do not cause Attacks, it causes automatic Hits. So an MC with 1 Attack can Smash itself for D3 hits.

Assuming you can smash.


You dont have permission to use abilities outside of the weapon it is using.

(unless i missed some sort of faq)

Yeah, I'm of the mindset you can not. It doesn't say you can trigger rules/traits unless its on the weapon. I play crons and nids so I'm on both sides of this fence.

Side question that just popped into my head.

Would MSS be able to use a tyranid tail biomorph?

No, Smash is not allowed by rule.

a model or his unit that is MSS suffers D3 hits

Smash by rule halves the attacks.

MSS does not grant the model "attacks" so there is nothing to "halve."

The model or his unit mere suffer D3 hits and thus bypass the part where you could make Smash work.

 Desubot wrote:
I say no as smash is not the benefit or ablity of the MCs "weapon"

In that case, Preferred Enemy and Poisoned (Nurgle, Toxin Sacs) shouldn't work either as they are abilities of the model itself and not of the weapon.

But no one plays it that way.

40k-noob wrote:
No, Smash is not allowed by rule.

a model or his unit that is MSS suffers D3 hits

Smash by rule halves the attacks.

MSS does not grant the model "attacks" so there is nothing to "halve."

The model or his unit mere suffer D3 hits and thus bypass the part where you could make Smash work.

MSS is basically attacks that auto-hits his own unit. From the Necron codex:

"Instead of attacking normally, he inflicts D3 hits on his own unit when it is his turn to attack." (Necron codex, p.81)




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 FirePainter wrote:
Side question that just popped into my head.

Would MSS be able to use a tyranid tail biomorph?

Yes, I believe that you can.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 whembly wrote:
If yes... it's d3 attacks. Would smash reduce the attack by half? What if you rolled a one or two?

 Happyjew wrote:
MSS do not cause Attacks, it causes automatic Hits. So an MC with 1 Attack can Smash itself for D3 hits.

I agree here with Happyjew.

I just don't know... nothing in the MSS rules gives you permission to activate special rules the model has, only the ones the weapons have.

If you MSS my tryant that has a bone sword and you roll a 6 to wound, sure I'll eat the ID but thats the weapon not the model.

 jy2 wrote:

 Desubot wrote:
I say no as smash is not the benefit or ablity of the MCs "weapon"

In that case, Preferred Enemy and Poisoned (Nurgle, Toxin Sacs) shouldn't work either as they are abilities of the model itself and not of the weapon.

But no one plays it that way.

Yep that would be correct.
But RAW you dont get it. and my local does not allow smash (which doesn't matter as we dont have many necron players)

The FAQ

“At the start of the Fight sub-phase, randomly select an enemy
model in base contact with the bearer of the mindshackle
scarabs. That model must immediately take a Leadership test
on 3D6. If the test is passed, the mindshackle scarabs have no
effect. If the test is failed, the victim strikes out at his allies.
Instead of attacking normally, he inflicts D3 hits on his own
unit (or himself, if on his own or in a challenge) when it is his
turn to attack. These hits are resolved at the victim's Strength
and benefit from any abilities and penalties from his Melee
weapons (the controller of the mindshackle scarabs chooses
which weapon he uses, if there is a choice). If he is still alive,
the victim returns to the owning player’s control once all blows
in that round of combat have been struck.”

 Desubot wrote:
I say no as smash is not the benefit or ablity of the MCs "weapon"

So would a monstrous creature without a special weapon get an armor save if it attacked itself?
That's if I remember correctly and it is Smash that provide the attacks AP 2.

Actually im going to have to retract my last post.

As thinking about it. they are still attacks that just auto hit d3 times. so you would benefit from PE and poison and ap 2 as those are passive bonuses that are active always. however you still do not have permission to activate the smash it self to halve and double strength.

I would agree, The AP2 would apply just like poison would. ( Except for the tail attacks of course)

So strength at ap2..

 Desubot wrote:
Actually im going to have to retract my last post.

As thinking about it. they are still attacks that just auto hit d3 times. so you would benefit from PE and poison and ap 2 as those are passive bonuses that are active always. however you still do not have permission to activate the smash it self to halve and double strength.

But there is precedence that you do.

FAQ allows you to force the MSS recipient to activate his force weapons. So why is he able to use his force weapons and not his Smash attacks if fighting with claw and teeth?




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Roci wrote:
I would agree, The AP2 would apply just like poison would. ( Except for the tail attacks of course)

So strength at ap2..

That just doesn't make sense to me. You are already using the Smash rule to hit at AP2. What in MSS lets you pick and choose which part of a USR you can or cannot use? To me, it's either all or nothing. You either hit with all of the rules for Smash or you hit with none of it.

 jy2 wrote:

 Desubot wrote:
Actually im going to have to retract my last post.

As thinking about it. they are still attacks that just auto hit d3 times. so you would benefit from PE and poison and ap 2 as those are passive bonuses that are active always. however you still do not have permission to activate the smash it self to halve and double strength.

But there is precedence that you do.

FAQ allows you to force the MSS recipient to activate his force weapons. So why is he able to use his force weapons and not his Smash attacks if fighting with claw and teeth?

Force is an ability of the weapon it self.

So is Smash if a model is fighting with teeth or claw.

Teeth and claw counts as a CCW

But Smash is a model based rule not a weapon special rule.

the weapon it self doesn't suddenly get smash.

I would say no to smash,
I thought all MC cc attacks were AP2 tho, regardless if they smash

Either way, I would say anything the weapon does is what you can do, but any abilities that are always active (preferred enemy) would obviously still be used because thats what the model does

also in another FAQ it specifically says that daemon weapons dont get extra attacks.. because MSS causes auto hits

 jy2 wrote:

 Desubot wrote:
Actually im going to have to retract my last post.

As thinking about it. they are still attacks that just auto hit d3 times. so you would benefit from PE and poison and ap 2 as those are passive bonuses that are active always. however you still do not have permission to activate the smash it self to halve and double strength.

But there is precedence that you do.

FAQ allows you to force the MSS recipient to activate his force weapons. So why is he able to use his force weapons and not his Smash attacks if fighting with claw and teeth?




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Roci wrote:
I would agree, The AP2 would apply just like poison would. ( Except for the tail attacks of course)

So strength at ap2..

That just doesn't make sense to me. You are already using the Smash rule to hit at AP2. What in MSS lets you pick and choose which part of a USR you can or cannot use? To me, it's either all or nothing. You either hit with all of the rules for Smash or you hit with none of it.

All Nids have claws and teeth and if you looked at the profile for claws and teeth it wouldn't include the rule for smash. If you look at a force weapon profile you will see the force rule. If I had to choose an all or none way to play it. I would choose none at all.

I look at things like the ap2 part of smash or stuff like poison as a constant passive ability. When you look at stuff like tail biomorphs, they have rules that tell you that you can't apply this benefit. So unless you have something like that is going to happen. The smash attack doesn't ever have to happen. It a USR based on the model typed not by what they are fighting with.

I get it from a fluff standpoint but I don't see it written that way.

Its pretty straight forward...
The model that is attacking, is still the exact same model that is doing the attacks, he is just hitting himself,
but when you have to chose any specific rule,
you may only chose to use rules that are from the weapon
so smash... you have to make a choice.. does it come from the weapon.. no.. so no...
force weapon.. you have to chose to activate, does it come from the weapon.. yes... so yes...

 jy2 wrote:
So is Smash if a model is fighting with teeth or claw.

Not all MCs are TMCs; some of them actually use weapons!

I believe the answer should be yes. As written, though, I believe it is "no." Per the quoted FAQ above, MSS makes you hit your own unit at the model's strength, and with the bonuses/penalties of any associated weapon. "Smash" isn't associated with the MC's weapons (unlike, say, a Powerfist on a Wraithlord).

I do believe that the AP2 part of Smash functions, though - IIRC, the wording is something along the lines of "melee attacks from a MC are resolved at AP 2," and the attacks caused by MSS are indeed from the MC. That will likely address questions of Poison/Preferred Enemy as well.

Here is my point.

Prefered Enemy, Poison, Smash....they are all part of the natural ability of a model. Whey you get mindshackled, you can use all of those rules (MC's will still hit themselves at AP2 due to Smash). So why can you selectively pick and choose which part of the Smash rule you can or cannot use? Just like when you force a target to force weapon himself with MSS, he cannot choose to not attack at AP3 or to not expend a Warpcharge. He has to do all it. So why would a model be forced to smash himself at AP2 but yet not have to do it following the other rules for Smash?

 Desubot wrote:
Teeth and claw counts as a CCW

But Smash is a model based rule not a weapon special rule.

the weapon it self doesn't suddenly get smash.

Yes, and so is Poison a model based rule and not a weapon special rule (i.e. plaguebearers, toxin sac Tyranids).

The weapon itself is already fighting with the attributes of Smash, at least for MC's.

 KonTheory wrote:
I would say no to smash,
I thought all MC cc attacks were AP2 tho, regardless if they smash

Either way, I would say anything the weapon does is what you can do, but any abilities that are always active (preferred enemy) would obviously still be used because thats what the model does

also in another FAQ it specifically says that daemon weapons dont get extra attacks.. because MSS causes auto hits

All MC cc attacks are AP2 because they are using the rules for Smash.

The daemon weapon FAQ is refering to the number of attacks, which is not what I am debating in this thread. It is irrelevant.

 Roci wrote:

All Nids have claws and teeth and if you looked at the profile for claws and teeth it wouldn't include the rule for smash. If you look at a force weapon profile you will see the force rule. If I had to choose an all or none way to play it. I would choose none at all.

I look at things like the ap2 part of smash or stuff like poison as a constant passive ability. When you look at stuff like tail biomorphs, they have rules that tell you that you can't apply this benefit. So unless you have something like that is going to happen. The smash attack doesn't ever have to happen. It a USR based on the model typed not by what they are fighting with.

I get it from a fluff standpoint but I don't see it written that way.

The profile for the claws and teeth do not include the rule for Preferred Enemy or Poison also. So why do you get to use those with Mindshackles?

Also, keep in mind that 40K is a permissive ruleset. Unless it gives you restricted access (i.e. unless it limits/restricts which parts of a USR you get to use), you get full access to all the rules of a USR if you have/get to use the USR.

 Janthkin wrote:

 jy2 wrote:
So is Smash if a model is fighting with teeth or claw.

Not all MCs are TMCs; some of them actually use weapons!

I believe the answer should be yes. As written, though, I believe it is "no." Per the quoted FAQ above, MSS makes you hit your own unit at the model's strength, and with the bonuses/penalties of any associated weapon. "Smash" isn't associated with the MC's weapons (unlike, say, a Powerfist on a Wraithlord).

I do believe that the AP2 part of Smash functions, though - IIRC, the wording is something along the lines of "melee attacks from a MC are resolved at AP 2," and the attacks caused by MSS are indeed from the MC. That will likely address questions of Poison/Preferred Enemy as well.

Claws and teeth are classified as CCW, as are regular swords, axes, etc. You'll find that the majority of MC's, with the exception those that you actually buy weapons for (i.e. Nemesis Greatsword for dreadknights, balesword for a GUO, Staff of Change for a Lord of Change) are in essence fighting with claws and teeth figuratively speaking.

If you can't smash yourself, then you wouldn't be hitting yourself at AP2. I don't believe you can pick and choose which part of the rule/USR that you can or cannot use.

As a side note, arent smash attacks treated as AP1?

No, they are AP2.

 jy2 wrote:
Here is my point.

Prefered Enemy, Poison, Smash....they are all part of the natural ability of a model. Whey you get mindshackled, you can use all of those rules (MC's will still hit themselves at AP2 due to Smash). So why can you selectively pick and choose which part of the Smash rule you can or cannot use? Just like when you force a target to force weapon himself with MSS, he cannot choose to not attack at AP3 or to not expend a Warpcharge. He has to do all it. So why would a model be forced to smash himself at AP2 but yet not have to do it following the other rules for Smash?

You can Force Weapon because a) the Weapon has the Force rule, and b) the FAQ gives you permission to use the model's psychic charge.

An MC hits itself with AP2, because the Smash rule says that all attacks from the MC are resolved at AP 2.

You don't get to use the "double strength" part of the Smash rule because nothing gives you permission to make that choice; it's not an "every attack made by the model" ability (like the AP2), nor is it a property of the weapon being used.