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So with all the worrying about demon factories ROFLSTOMPING everything,

I thought it would be best to assuage peoples fears.

This thread is NOT FOR COMPLAINING ABOUT DEMON FACTORY.

this thread is for listing hard or at least, very good, counters to the strategy.


hard counter #1

crowding out their table edge:

any mobile unit, skimmers, bikes, fast vehicles, drop pods, and so on can get into their zone by turn one or two, summoning spells only have a 6-12 inch range, and will generally scatter, causing mishaps.

counter #2
Have a very shooty army:

If you can bring an army like tau, eldar, IG, or shooty anything, you should have enough firepower to kill 10+ t3/4 5++ models and their herald/sorcerer each turn. Since they are 100% focussed on summoning things that cannot really shoot, you will have plenty of time to shoot them since your army is not being damaged as much as it would VS an army that actually can shoot you effectively.

Add in things like sniper, barrage and you can prioritze the targets that give them the most warp charges. they can only summon units that grant one warp charge, so taking out characters that grant 2-3 WC is ideal. Once they have less then 6 charges to spend on each summoning, their odds of getting it off become horrible.

Since they are trying to stay back and summon, they will also be crowding their board like a mofo, so blast and template weapons will be wreaking havoc.

counter #3:

grey knights.



thats not a comprehensive list by any means, but every single codex has either a "shooty" or a "speedy" solution to this.

Considering that all the tournaments will have demons at 1FOC, and you cannot ally with yourself, even with every HQ at ML 3, and every troops/elite/HS/fast filled to max with BOP's (6+3+3+3) they only get 21+d6 warp charges per turn, which will give them a 65% chance to get off 4 summoning spells @ 6dice each try, assuming average rolls of 3 extra warp dice. they now have 0 WC's left for any other power.

meaning they will likely get off 2-3 summons, and since the % to perils on each of those 4 tries is 26%, they will likely perils at LEAST once. Thats also not including problems due to DS mishaps.


please list out good counters that you have found, or any relevent tactical information regarding demon factory, or counters to it.

Again, this is not a whine and complain about demonfactory thread, please keep OT

I expect that horrors will be FAQ'd to only allow change powers. A likely oversight in editing.

FYi FAQ is already out,

yes, every unit with BOP in demon codex can get a summon power

 easysauce wrote:
FYi FAQ is already out,

yes, every unit with BOP in demon codex can get a summon power

I just looked for the faq after i had posted that and saw they were updated this morning.. I am actually baffled that they didnt make horrors change only.. but what can you do.. Personally I wont be going the rout of mass summoning, but I will likely try and get myself a nice bloodthirster at least some point throughout the game haha.

Played a 1000pt game this weekend to try out the new rules. My opponent had 4 heralds and a couple other nasties. He would summon up pink horrors, those pink horrors summoned more pink horrors, etc. I killed the heralds with shooting as fast as I could. In the end, it didn't matter, he had all the objectives with his summoned horrors, he summoned 2-3 units a turn.

In low point games, heralds are pretty scary. Bring a lot of shooting or awesome melee.

? how was he getting the 24 WC's to get 2-3 summoned units off each turn? 4 heralds is only 12 charges at ML 3. was he using summoned units to summon units the same turn they arrived? thats not allowed if he did.

sounds like you did the right thing targeting ML 3 heralds, you sure he played it right though?

 easysauce wrote:
? how was he getting the 24 WC's to get 2-3 summoned units off each turn? 4 heralds is only 12 charges at ML 3. was he using summoned units to summon units the same turn they arrived? thats not allowed if he did.

sounds like you did the right thing targeting ML 3 heralds, you sure he played it right though?

Did you factor in his Troop Choices being that they were probably MORE pink horrors generating anywhere between 1-3 Charges per squad?

He probably didn't.

A 1000 point army can run 4 teams of 16 horrors with relative ease, giving another 12 cast dice.

I didn't think summoned units could secure objectives. Must read when I get home.

"Unless otherwise noted, conjured units are scoring units". Page 398 of the Interactive edition.

Not sure whether they get Objective Secured if summoned by a unit in a Battleforged Combined Arms detachment though.

Armoured Battle Group.

If the daemons plan is just to summon horrors then they aren't going to be able to do much against a wall of AV13. Mix in some Eradicators for ignores cover, some Beast hunter vanquishers for any MC that turn up and take a bunch of demolisher cannons for everything else.

You can get a lot more than 21 warp charges.

For example...

HQ #1 Kairos Fatewaever = ML4
HQ #2 Heralds of Chaos (4x Heralds of Tzeentch) = ML3 x4
Troops 6x 16 Pink Horrors = ML1 * 6, but generating 3 warp charges each.

That alone is 34 dice. Factor in ML3 Daemon Princes for Heavy Support, etc and you're even higher.

Also, summoned Daemons are VERY unlikely to scatter if you have an Icon of Chaos on the board. Even if you don't, they are free for summoned units of Pink Horrors, so subsequent summons wouldn't scatter. Also, a casting of the 1 warp charge Scorched Earth power prevents scatter.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And the plan I think is to summon Horrors (or more likely Heralds) who can then pop themselves and become Greater Daemons.

So far the clown-car list is to summon horros, who then sacrifice to heralds, then summon GDs to beatface. Takes 3 turns but once going it sure seems unstoppable.

One good counter I'm thinking of is GK henchmen in psybacks. They are cheap but the psybacks themselves get banishment and sanctuary (1 warpcharge each) so roll up and start weakening those deamons while in the safety of the vehicle.

 Kriswall wrote:
You can get a lot more than 21 warp charges.

For example...

HQ #1 Kairos Fatewaever = ML4
HQ #2 Heralds of Chaos (4x Heralds of Tzeentch) = ML3 x4
Troops 6x 16 Pink Horrors = ML1 * 6, but generating 3 warp charges each.

That alone is 34 dice. Factor in ML3 Daemon Princes for Heavy Support, etc and you're even higher.

Also, summoned Daemons are VERY unlikely to scatter if you have an Icon of Chaos on the board. Even if you don't, they are free for summoned units of Pink Horrors, so subsequent summons wouldn't scatter. Also, a casting of the 1 warp charge Scorched Earth power prevents scatter.

each horror unit counts as a lvl 1 psyker right? so only +1 warp charge point per unit, regardless of how big the unit is.
And the plan I think is to summon Horrors (or more likely Heralds) who can then pop themselves and become Greater Daemons.

nevermind i found it in the daemon codex.

so they generate more warp charge points per size... but being a lvl1 caster can only cast one power per turn. awesome.

Isnt this still under the assumption that they will roll the GD power?

its not like they can just up and pick the right powers.

Footguard would be a good counter too.

Oh you summoned 6 extra units in your psychic phase?

Shame I still have 300 more models on the board than you do.

That can ignore cover, shoot twice or snipe out your herads depending on how I feel.

GK IFVs getting Banishment and using embarked henchman psykers as additional warp charge to cast it just might be the silliest thing in the edition. I love it.

 buddha wrote:
So far the clown-car list is to summon horros, who then sacrifice to heralds, then summon GDs to beatface. Takes 3 turns but once going it sure seems unstoppable.

One good counter I'm thinking of is GK henchmen in psybacks. They are cheap but the psybacks themselves get banishment and sanctuary (1 warpcharge each) so roll up and start weakening those deamons while in the safety of the vehicle.

Why not just go straight from Pink Horrors to Greater Daemons?

If you've taken 4 heralds, chances are one will have the Portaglyph as well for more free troops of Pink Horrors, just keep trying to cast Possession. If you arent successful, wait a round.

Also, it seems Plague Bearers who have FNP conferred to them are the best option for point sacking since you can negate the wound necessary for casting Sacrifice (hah) Or just have a Great Fat Bastard cast it since he can (And highly likely WILL) have FNP 4+ From Biomancy's new Endurance.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, Riftbringer

GoliothOnline wrote:

 buddha wrote:
So far the clown-car list is to summon horros, who then sacrifice to heralds, then summon GDs to beatface. Takes 3 turns but once going it sure seems unstoppable.

One good counter I'm thinking of is GK henchmen in psybacks. They are cheap but the psybacks themselves get banishment and sanctuary (1 warpcharge each) so roll up and start weakening those deamons while in the safety of the vehicle.

Why not just go straight from Pink Horrors to Greater Daemons?

If you've taken 4 heralds, chances are one will have the Portaglyph as well for more free troops of Pink Horrors, just keep trying to cast Possession. If you arent successful, wait a round.

Also, it seems Plague Bearers who have FNP conferred to them are the best option for point sacking since you can negate the wound necessary for casting Sacrifice (hah) Or just have a Great Fat Bastard cast it since he can (And highly likely WILL) have FNP 4+ From Biomancy's new Endurance.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, Riftbringer

Well, as Desubot pointed out, they still have to successfully roll to get both the Herald and GD powers. I was just pointing out the general idea. If they start the game with 4 lvl 3 tzeentch heralds (as in almost any case they would) they have a very good chance of getting both on multiple casters. They summon the horrors first turn to add warpcharge, then summon Heralds for easier sacrifice into GDs the next turn. I don't play it, this is just how the playstyle was explained to me.

If your counting on psychic powers to save you from demon army your out of your mind, they have 30+ dispel dice.

if you planned to user psychic powers AT ALL, your have another thing coming.....unless you have your own 20+ dice....

 Kriswall wrote:
You can get a lot more than 21 warp charges.

For example...

HQ #1 Kairos Fatewaever = ML4
HQ #2 Heralds of Chaos (4x Heralds of Tzeentch) = ML3 x4
Troops 6x 16 Pink Horrors = ML1 * 6, but generating 3 warp charges each.

That alone is 34 dice. Factor in ML3 Daemon Princes for Heavy Support, etc and you're even higher.

Also, summoned Daemons are VERY unlikely to scatter if you have an Icon of Chaos on the board. Even if you don't, they are free for summoned units of Pink Horrors, so subsequent summons wouldn't scatter. Also, a casting of the 1 warp charge Scorched Earth power prevents scatter.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And the plan I think is to summon Horrors (or more likely Heralds) who can then pop themselves and become Greater Daemons.

sorry, but why are troops choices of ML one BOP's getting 3 charges a turn?
not saying you are wrong, just want to know why, somthing about full unit size right?

also, how many points is all that?

doesnt seem like there is anything that can actually shoot past 24",

and it seems like thats the whole army tied up in generating charges, only to summon more t3 5++ demons which are not really game breaking.

the other summoning spells still have to be rolled for after all, and once you have units within 12" of them, scatter or not, they wont be summoning things. also crowded in their end still

 easysauce wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:
You can get a lot more than 21 warp charges.

For example...

HQ #1 Kairos Fatewaever = ML4
HQ #2 Heralds of Chaos (4x Heralds of Tzeentch) = ML3 x4
Troops 6x 16 Pink Horrors = ML1 * 6, but generating 3 warp charges each.

That alone is 34 dice. Factor in ML3 Daemon Princes for Heavy Support, etc and you're even higher.

Also, summoned Daemons are VERY unlikely to scatter if you have an Icon of Chaos on the board. Even if you don't, they are free for summoned units of Pink Horrors, so subsequent summons wouldn't scatter. Also, a casting of the 1 warp charge Scorched Earth power prevents scatter.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

And the plan I think is to summon Horrors (or more likely Heralds) who can then pop themselves and become Greater Daemons.

sorry, but why are troops choices of ML one BOP's getting 3 charges a turn?
not saying you are wrong, just want to know why.

also, how many points is all that, doesnt seem like there is anything that can actually shoot past 24",

HORRORS have a rule that based on unit size they provide x amount of warp charges. If they have at least 16 models in the unit they provide 3.

also the horrors can use the fmales of tzeentch spells to unleash ranged doom, but it eats into their warp charges, but they have plenty!

yes, but how many PTS has that list spent on generating the 36 warp charges,

can someone answer that pls? its important to figure out how many PTS of shooting they dont have.

The list he wrote, sans upgrades of any kind (except the add'l PMLs for the Tzeralds) is 1544pts.

Don't forget that Fateweaver generates 8WC per turn.

So that's 38 WC per turn, and you're paying 41ppWC. Not bad (although not the best).

Still leaves room for two Burning Chariots in a 1750 game, which would add some high Str shooting that this list lacks.

 Elric Greywolf wrote:
The list he wrote, sans upgrades of any kind (except the add'l PMLs for the Tzeralds) is 1544pts.

Don't forget that Fateweaver generates 8WC per turn.

So that's 38 WC per turn, and you're paying 41ppWC. Not bad (although not the best).

Still leaves room for two Burning Chariots in a 1750 game, which would add some high Str shooting that this list lacks.

fateweaver does NOT get 8 a turn, hes ML 4 = 4 a turn, having 8 powers =/= generating 8 charges.

so 1544 pts all dedicated to generating charges, compared to 1544pts worth of guard/eldar/tau shooting, you are putting fewer models on the table then they will be taking off with good lists.

Loopstah wrote:
Footguard would be a good counter too.
Oh you summoned 6 extra units in your psychic phase?
Shame I still have 300 more models on the board than you do.
That can ignore cover, shoot twice or snipe out your herads depending on how I feel.

really depends, if there is LOS blocking terrain they can sit there summoning all day.

If not they the horrors just gtg and have cursed earth popped so they have a nice cover save and a 4++ that rerolls 1s. Pretty hard to wipe off the board when they camp in their own deployment zone and you have to run up to get into lasgun range.

 easysauce wrote:

fateweaver does NOT get 8 a turn, hes ML 4 = 4 a turn, having 8 powers =/= generating 8 charges.

You're correct, but for the wrong reason. He is two PML4 Psykers (as stated in his entry). But in my excitement over that, I missed where it also specifies that he only generates 4WC. The specification is necessary, because without it he WOULD generate 8WC, since he IS two Psykers. Since it does specify that he only gets 4WC, he only gets 4WC.

 Elric Greywolf wrote:

 easysauce wrote:

fateweaver does NOT get 8 a turn, hes ML 4 = 4 a turn, having 8 powers =/= generating 8 charges.

You're correct, but for the wrong reason. He is two PML4 Psykers (as stated in his entry). But in my excitement over that, I missed where it also specifies that he only generates 4WC. The specification is necessary, because without it he WOULD generate 8WC, since he IS two Psykers. Since it does specify that he only gets 4WC, he only gets 4WC.

fair enough,

my point is though, if you get 2nd turn with a summon list, against any competent opponent who is shooty, or mobile, which is a lot of builds, even before this demon factory thing existed, you will lose, and you will lose badly.

enough armies can force 60+ wounds a turn on your 5++ demons that you will lose units, which throws a real kink in your plans. same with units that can move 18+ inches in one turn, you will crowd yourself out and not be able to summon.

So while demon factory might be a viable list, its not over the top op as some seem to think it is, there are some very hard counters to opponents who just want to crowd out their backfield, ignore midfeild/your side, and just DS unit after unit in their own side

I'm sorta in the same boat. I don't think that it will be quite as over-the-top as some of these early playtests have shown. I think they got a lot of lucky dice rolls, and perhaps some misunderstandings of the Psychic phase, that went into these "awesome" first games with Daemon Factories.

Have you played a game against a list like this? When you do, using one of your mobility counters, will you update this thread?

I'm also excited to see how GK do against Daemons. Losing Warp Quake in favour of Banishment means that they're even more tailored to fight Daemons, and less adaptable against other armies. I'd like to see this classic matchup go down in 7e.

 easysauce wrote:
Thats also not including problems due to DS mishaps.

If a conjuration power creates a unit from Codex: Chaos Daemons and that unit’s Army
List Entry includes the option to take an Icon of Chaos, an Instrument of Chaos and/or
the option to upgrade one model to a character, you may take any of these options for free
provided you have the appropriate model available.

Those icons prevent scatter, I'd imagine there'll be one or two in the list to start with to get the ball rolling.