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So, I have seen many posts on here and other forums that attempt to attribute a whole lot to the Alpha legion. Everything from stated things from books all the way up to outlandish claims like Omegon is really Janus from the grey knights, Cypher is really Alpherius (a theory someone posted from a long time ago). It is getting a little ridiculous and the concept of the covert independent insurgent has gotten almost to the point of caricature. In my opinion the extent to which people have, and in many cases in serious legitimate attempts at connecting different ambiguities, have made the legion a joke. This wide conjecture is primarily due to the mysterious and Behind-the-scenes nature of the legions pre and post heresy. I know that GW has intentionally left the fluff ambiguous, but what do we know is concretely attributed to the alpha legion, and how much can we realistically attribute to them that hasn't been specifically stated?

I've not heard the Cypher is Alpharius one and that's nonsense. The only theory I've really heard about them is that Omegon is Janus which is very plausible. I don't think they're that silly, the whole point of them is that no one really knows for sure anything about them, and I don't see a problem with that. The problem is in the writing, now everything seems to be an AL plot, and some people seem to have got the idea that they're infallible and capable of anything (someone said 'they have no equals in the other legions' which isn't true). They do things differently to the other legions but there's pros and cons to their method of war. They make mistakes from time to time like all legions do.

Yeah I'll agree the AL have become a caricature. Honestly mostly of the "Alpha legion did it" posts I read, I read as a joke.

It's just as much of a joke as Orks firing bullets out of sticks or the Blood Ravens having everyone's weapons.

Mm. I love the Alpha Legion, but it has almost become like a meme now.

There is a difference in the AL and the other examples. The blood ravens may be known for stealing artifacts, but it doesn't define them. same for Orks. Their gestalt psyker field is interesting but it isn't the first thing you think of when you think of orks. also you can discuss orks without bringing that up. With AL the entire concept is based on the idea of total war meets insurgent, non traditional tactics, and you never know if the AL is behind it or not. And for some of their established fluff it is cool and interesting, but the sheer volume of serious conjecture over their accomplishments is too much. it has been taken too far i think.

I refer you to the thread in my signature.

I can't see your signature on my iPad.

Given the romanticized view people hold of RL clandestine organizations I think it fits fluff and fan theory wise. They obviously aren't involved in everything people claim they are. Gives them a nice miasma of misinformation to go with the bogeyman/space illuminati feel.

 KhorneIsLove wrote:
Given the romanticized view people hold of RL clandestine organizations I think it fits fluff and fan theory wise. They obviously aren't involved in everything people claim they are. Gives them a nice miasma of misinformation to go with the bogeyman/space illuminati feel.

I agree that some of it is necessary and definitely adds a mystique to the whole thing, which is good.

I don't want to come off as just being the guy who wants to rain on AL's Meme Parade, i created the thread to try to collect stuff that is genuinely attributable to AL, and maybe look at some of the less outlandish claims that could be plausible. like the whole White scars interaction, first with the orks and then with the ever changing cordon, those were really cool and definitively attributable to AL.

 ImAGeek wrote:
I can't see your signature on my iPad.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/570161/6379318.page

 GKTiberius wrote:

 KhorneIsLove wrote:
Given the romanticized view people hold of RL clandestine organizations I think it fits fluff and fan theory wise. They obviously aren't involved in everything people claim they are. Gives them a nice miasma of misinformation to go with the bogeyman/space illuminati feel.

I agree that some of it is necessary and definitely adds a mystique to the whole thing, which is good.

I don't want to come off as just being the guy who wants to rain on AL's Meme Parade, i created the thread to try to collect stuff that is genuinely attributable to AL, and maybe look at some of the less outlandish claims that could be plausible. like the whole White scars interaction, first with the orks and then with the ever changing cordon, those were really cool and definitively attributable to AL.

What was AL's interaction with the White Scars?

Whoever posited that Cypher is Alpharius doesn't have a very good grasp on established fluff. That's a ridiculous assertion. That being said, I get where you're coming from, but I don't think it's as widespread/negatively impacting as you think. Most of the Ancient Aliens-style Alpha Legion blaming is done in a tongue-in-cheek, we-know-it's-not-really-like-that-but-it's-so-absurdly-hilarious-that-we-say-it-anyways manner. It's not meant to be serious, so you shouldn't take it seriously. People who blame everything on the Alpha Legion in a sincere manner usually have little concept of the actual 40k fluff, in my experience. Some people have just taken to the idea that the Alpha Legion are an Illuminati-esque organization, which I don't think was ever the point.

Furthermore, there is some merit to the idea that Omegon founded the Grey Knights. It's not some random idea that came out of nowhere because there was an empty spot in the lore; there's some established hints that make it a harmless, not completely unfounded theory.

The "Alpha Legion did it" jokes have become like the Chuck Norris jokes of 40k; always there, but losing their comedic value due to overuse. I don't let Chuck Norris jokes rustle my jimmies, so I would recommend you do the same with regards to AL jokes.

Don't sweat it OP. Most of the Alpha Legion comments are just a joke, because the Alpha Legion's fluff has become just that, a bad joke.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
Don't sweat it OP. Most of the Alpha Legion comments are just a joke, because the Alpha Legion's fluff has become just that, a bad joke.

You should really stop drinking that Haterade. It's fattening! That picture is hilarious, though.

To answer the thread title directly - Yes, really.

Of course, your consternation is understandable, given your user name.

But you're just going to have to be comfortable with the fact that Janus was who he was - Alpharius, er, Omegon - or, Alpharius!

Either way - yeah!

 Darth Bob wrote:

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
Don't sweat it OP. Most of the Alpha Legion comments are just a joke, because the Alpha Legion's fluff has become just that, a bad joke.

You should really stop drinking that Haterade. It's fattening! That picture is hilarious, though.

You should be the one most upset. After all, it's your favorite Legion's fluff that's being ruined.

I haven't played Alpha Legion since 2nd Edition. When they were still awesome.

Da Mediokre Painta wrote:

 GKTiberius wrote:

 KhorneIsLove wrote:
Given the romanticized view people hold of RL clandestine organizations I think it fits fluff and fan theory wise. They obviously aren't involved in everything people claim they are. Gives them a nice miasma of misinformation to go with the bogeyman/space illuminati feel.

I agree that some of it is necessary and definitely adds a mystique to the whole thing, which is good.

I don't want to come off as just being the guy who wants to rain on AL's Meme Parade, i created the thread to try to collect stuff that is genuinely attributable to AL, and maybe look at some of the less outlandish claims that could be plausible. like the whole White scars interaction, first with the orks and then with the ever changing cordon, those were really cool and definitively attributable to AL.

What was AL's interaction with the White Scars?

In Scars Jaghatai Khan was sent by Horus (apparently with no good reason) to the Chondax System to find off some Waaggh!, away from the council of Nikea, where the Khan would have stood with his friend, Magnus the Red. After the campaign on Condax, the Khan was chilling (mostly because of the Warp Storms he couldn't go anywhere) when two brawling fleets, the remaining SW fleet after Prospero and an unusually large AL fleet, came into his fleet's sensor range. The AL fleet kept the WS from engaging nor escaping. The Khan was pissed that the AL fleet did not hail the Khan, so he ordered a surprise attack on the AL, and found out many of the AL battle barges were disguised cargo ships. The Khan got a message for aid from Russ, but Khan wasn't sure what's happening because the WS fleet received contradicting messages about Istavaan V and Prospero, and opted to do nothing. After the Khan figured out that Horus had turned against the Emperor, the WS comm is cleared and Dorn sent his regards and told the Khan to head for Terra immediately, the Khan said "Screw you guise, I'm going to Prospero" to both Dorn and Russ and left for Prospero.

It was reveal in a psychic conversation between some WS lodge members and possibly Erebus that the Alpha Legion's presence was not part of the Warmaster's plan, and the Khan believed that the Alpha Legion was there to push the WS back to Terra (such is the reason why they held the WS fleet and distorted the incoming messages to WS until Dorn's order came through). Of course what the Alpha Legion really wanted is anybody's guess, or, if it was the Alpharius' order to do so or Omegan's, or that if Alpharius is really Alpharius, or Omegan, or the Battle Barges are Omegan, or... oh heke, the joke is getting really old.

I've always chosen to kind of merge the old and newer fluff. Due to ease of which Alpharius was convinced by a group of xenos with an advanced 3D TV to betray his father, I've always seen the hubris and pride of the Alpha Legion as what greased that particular wheel. The old fluff says that the Alpha Legion turned to prove they were the best SMs, starting with Guilliman alienating Alpharius through poor social skills and setting him down that particular road of consternation and feeling of unappreciation, eventually resulting in their galactic guerilla warfare.

Yeah, I kind of miss the Alpha Legion = martial pride thing that existed once upon a time. The current "I'ma gotta secret" thing is kinda bleah for me.

Understand my disappointment; much of my persona Imperial fluff stems from an older view of the Alphas, who are key players in my stories. With the change much of what I wrote was undone - hence my bias.

Under current popular fluff you'll never know what the Alphas have done. They take credit for actions of others, blame others for their own work and spread lies about everyone with fervor.

Sounds like the Alphas have become Tzeentchian pawns to me, scheming just to scheme because it's their nature. And no, you can't fool the Architect of Fate as some Alphaphiles claim; he's a god who can see into your soul and manipulate your moral weaknesses. If you think you're acting on your own behalf, think again; You are the puppet that dances to Tzeentch's tune. If the K-sons are a manifestation of Tzeentch's magical aspect, the Alphas are a perfect manifestation of his scheming side.

I think the Alphas can't even keep their own lies straight at some point. As currently presented they're neither heroic nor sympathetic, devolving into a pack of congenital liars. All because they decided to believe the lies told to them by a secret society? Really?

I find claims that they're actually loyal to the Emperor to be unconvincing. If they were still loyal at some point the Alphas would have to realize the very future they were trying to change had come true because of their actions. Had they remained loyal the Heresy would have been easily crushed and the Emperor quite probably would not have become a corpse-god. They had to realize they had been played. When the Alphas could not prevent the outcome of the Horus Heresy why did they continue down the Chaos path? Why not withdraw into the shadows and try to change the Imperium through covert action? Why not work against the forces that had made fools of them? Because they 'couldn't be forgiven'? Really? Covert ops guys don't think in terms of forgiveness, only outcomes.

Without Alpha perfidy the Imperium would have recovered more quickly from the Heresy and could have been guided away from a stagnant bureaucratic theocracy into something better. But no, they stuck with Chaos, cause... reasons (known only unto the Alphas themselves).

Pity, they had such potential, too. A Legion that is subtle and elegant, with every move measured and economical, would have been a nice contrast to the flamboyant drama that characterizes most of the other Legions. But alas no, just another caricature.

There are plenty of other Legions who had special ops aspects as part of their makeup. Night Lords turned secret terror ops into a vicious science. Thousand Sons had their Hidden Ones, who were more spec ops than standard scouts. Word Bearers had persuasive psyops (proselytizing) down to a fine art. The Alphas would have done better to emphasize some aspect of spec ops instead of trying to seize the whole pie for themselves. Everybody likes pie; they shoud have shared the pieces.

Why GW had to take a perfectly satisfactory seed like the Aloha Legion and turn it into something silly and exaggerated escapes me. But there you go.

My two teef.

Whilst I never read or knew about the old Alpha Legion Fluff, I don't believe the new stuff is silly or a joke. How can you fight a Legion when you don't know where they are, what they've done or what they're capable of? I can understand what some people say about other Legions having Spec Ops etc. but I don't believe the Alpha Legion are quite like that.. for example, in modern combat a Spec Ops team such as the SAS goes in and gets stuff done - you still know it's the SAS after the fact and you can attribute their accomplishments accordingly. The Alpha Legion embroil themselves in so much ambiguity and misdirection that you can never be sure of what they can or can't do. In that way they can even inflate their image by having events, not even related to them, possibly attributed to their actions etc.

For a relatively small Legion, they cast a huge footprint across the entire galaxy simply because no-one knows the details. Their biggest accomplishment is developing this reputation which affects so much. Drop a hint that the Alpha Legion is operating in a zone and you'll sow paranoia and dissension, they'll be looking over their shoulders and keeping one eye on their own allies.

Oh look, we're being reinforced by Ultramarines - or are we?


I'm not sure whether the Alpha legion is in fact Loyalist or not, but whatever the case, they are effective at what they do... which is making everyone unsure about what they do.

I like the Alpha Legion's fluff, I do think a lot of people take it to an extreme as a joke though.

Wasn't Alpharius told that in order for the Imperium to survive he had to join the traitors? If so that really justifies how during the Heresy why he acted "on Horus's side", but meanwhile was running his own sorties and missions that Horus didn't know/understand.

I do think the idea of Omegon being Janus is a very interesting one, one of my favorite potential plot twists.

I would say they were at risk of becoming flanderized if it weren't for the fact every damn legion is flanderized. I love the idea of them planning and scheming large weaving plots and traps, its very un-space marine-like and very Tzeentchian. At times they almost remind me of the Reasonable Marines.

then make them tzeenchian and make that part of the fluff. This ambiguous are they, arent they, who are they, they are everyone... thing doesn't facilitate anything other than to just be annoying and further the caricature stereotype

 Shadowclaimer wrote:

Wasn't Alpharius told that in order for the Imperium to survive he had to join the traitors? If so that really justifies how during the Heresy why he acted "on Horus's side", but meanwhile was running his own sorties and missions that Horus didn't know/understand.

Alpharius eventually betrayed those guys who told him he had to join the traitors for the Imperium to survive (actually, NOT for the Imperium to survive. It was for Chaos to be destroyed, and humanity along with it).

So basically Alpharius right now is betraying EVERYONE. This continues in later stories where he's continually screwing with everyone, including himself.

Of course, given that many normal Alpha Legionaires can pose as Alpharius and so can his brother Omegon, who also doesn't seem to be seeing eye-to-eye with him, one possible explanation for this is all these incidents of Alpharius betraying everyone are because it's all different Alphariuses doing it.

While things like "Cypher is Alpharius!" or "Abaddon is Alpharius!" etc are just jokes and should not be taken seriously, these jokes were born about because the actual official fluff is honestly not that far off with how "OMG MYSTERIOUS was it the Alpha Legion that did it!?" it is.

 GKTiberius wrote:
then make them tzeenchian and make that part of the fluff. This ambiguous are they, arent they, who are they, they are everyone... thing doesn't facilitate anything other than to just be annoying and further the caricature stereotype

Wait so, if they were Tzeenchian that would be fine, but because they aren't it isn't? I mean I can understand not liking them but that seems a bit if a double standard. AL actually have goals, we just don't know them. Tzeench has really arbitrary goals or just likes to mess things up for no reason. He can't have an end goal purely because that end goal couldn't last, because he'd have to change it. AL have an end goal, that's undisclosed.

Warboss Gorhack wrote:

I find claims that they're actually loyal to the Emperor to be unconvincing. If they were still loyal at some point the Alphas would have to realize the very future they were trying to change had come true because of their actions. Had they remained loyal the Heresy would have been easily crushed and the Emperor quite probably would not have become a corpse-god. They had to realize they had been played. When the Alphas could not prevent the outcome of the Horus Heresy why did they continue down the Chaos path? Why not withdraw into the shadows and try to change the Imperium through covert action? Why not work against the forces that had made fools of them? Because they 'couldn't be forgiven'? Really? Covert ops guys don't think in terms of forgiveness, only outcomes.
Without Alpha perfidy the Imperium would have recovered more quickly from the Heresy and could have been guided away from a stagnant bureaucratic theocracy into something better. But no, they stuck with Chaos, cause... reasons (known only unto the Alphas themselves).

Actually, the reason they side with Chaos is because someone, I forget who, probably the eldar, reveal to Alpharius/Omegon that the Chaos Gods want Horus to fail, because the emotions of the current Imperium are making them stronger, and a dying Imperium will create even more never-ending bloodshed. However,should Chaos actually win, humanity would die out and the emotions the Gods draw their power from would cease. Therefore, The AL try to get Chaos to win by joining Horus's side, and swinging the balance in his favour, thus defeating the Chaos Gods at the cost of humankind.
_____________________________________________________________________________________________________
Also, referring to OP, The Alpha legion is literally a full blown meme to the extent of Tactical Genius (and that's coming from me). |

Yeah. It's the Cabal who tell them. Although, we don't know if 1. The Cabal were actually telling the truth, or 2. The AL belive them. They might be following their own agenda. We don't really know the goal of Alpharius, and Omegons looks to be different too.

 ImAGeek wrote:
Yeah. It's the Cabal who tell them. Although, we don't know if 1. The Cabal were actually telling the truth, or 2. The AL belive them. They might be following their own agenda. We don't really know the goal of Alpharius, and Omegons looks to be different too.

Oh god why

 CREEEEEEEEED wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:
Yeah. It's the Cabal who tell them. Although, we don't know if 1. The Cabal were actually telling the truth, or 2. The AL belive them. They might be following their own agenda. We don't really know the goal of Alpharius, and Omegons looks to be different too.

Oh god why

Except that was in Legion, the first modern fluff for the AL. So the meme hadn't been played out then.

Also, you can't exactly blame the writers for how far the readers take something. I find the portrayals of the AL in the FW and BL fiction to be fine, it's people on here and other sites that are annoying about them.

 ImAGeek wrote:

 CREEEEEEEEED wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:
Yeah. It's the Cabal who tell them. Although, we don't know if 1. The Cabal were actually telling the truth, or 2. The AL belive them. They might be following their own agenda. We don't really know the goal of Alpharius, and Omegons looks to be different too.

Oh god why

Except that was in Legion, the first modern fluff for the AL. So the meme hadn't been played out then.

Also, you can't exactly blame the writers for how far the readers take something. I find the portrayals of the AL in the FW and BL fiction to be fine, it's people on here and other sites that are annoying about them.

Fair enough