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FFG and their pre-painted minis is a very good point. If I didn't have to paint Tau, good lord would Games Workshop have so much more of my money. They might be gently nudging towards that right now, in fact, with the new starter kits made with colored plastic.

I don't know if, in our lifetimes, we'll get to a point where at-home 3D printing can compete with professional stuff (/molding) for a sane price, but it is going to happen one day. (Of course, that will/could change a lot more than mini gaming.)

 DP9Dave wrote:
[..] The currency issue was a bad one and we had always planned that it could get bad for us, just never this bad, and for so long. In the end mistakes were made and hard lessons learned, such as how we should have been buying USD earlier to guard against fluctuations.

There is some truth to all that; yet there would probably have been less flap had that information not been sat on for so long as things drug on the past year+, nor did it help the situation much any that barely two weeks ago you were still posting hype saying everything was going perfectly.

 DP9Dave wrote:
[..] The thing that bothers me is that people automatically consider that we can just switch up the plastic models for metal. When you consider the cost of the materials that decision would kill the kickstarter dead, so that is not possible.
When the kickstarter was on I made the point that unlike most miniatures kick starters we actually have an in-house production facility and that if there was a disaster such as the molds falling off the transport ship and ending up a the bottom of the ocean then at the vary least we would be able to produce some kind of replacement ourselves using the insurance money. With many companies there would never be the possibility of this so advantage to us, but it doesn't help in a situation like this.

Again, due to scale, there is some truth to all that, nevertheless it still caught you having intimated something a bit different back during the KS.

However....
Offering small refund amounts for those few backers who absolutely do not want any other add-ons or DP9 store merchandise in place of either their Tigers or Sidewinders could not possibly have been that great a total loss.
Potentially, there is also the additional benefit of avoiding some, or maybe even quite a lot, of the ill will such a fiat engendered, whether that disappointment was voiced or not.

The decision to offer a rather pitiful, almost insulting really, discount on a two-pack of either (but not oddly enough the single blister, unless it simply was not mentioned) Gear makes it look as if no funds period can be spared after stating only a majority had been spent on the molds.
Unlike in the past Robert truly needs to understand (or be made to understand) that if folks, be they backers or potential customers, don't like something or don't want something then he will have to accept that fact and be done with the issue.

Something like cost (time & resources) plus only a 15-25% mark-up on each two-pack of models might have been a more reasonable offering for those willing to take advantage of it, so that it was still at an attractive price point compared to what was dropped from the KS box.
Overall, I think the manner in which this was handled comes across as a thinly veiled cash grab following already having spent what funds were pledged by the backers.

 DP9Dave wrote:
[..] musing/
I'm also sure that every game company producing in metal right now is looking at plastic as the only way forward.

Approximately what percentage of the overall KS funds pledged has been earmarked for any potential bulk discount on the total number of ''pops'' produced (above that of the KS backers) that are intended solely to fill retail boxes for the warehouse.
Because even though backers have to pay all the S&H/customs/VAT associated with their reward(s), it does not sound at all like the Pod has enough funds in reserve after redoing most of the 3D sculpts to try and spend the rest gambling on an industry exposure that may not or does not match reality.

There just may not be that many gamers or potential gamers out there willing to take a chance on the title, and there is surely a whole lot of competition for whatever disposable $$$ their budget will support.
Playing it safe may be the wiser course of action; if [X] amount of funds are spent to produce an overabundance of retail boxes y'all simply can't ask for it back afterwards if the product doesn't move fast enough to bring in any worthwhile profit.

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So, to Dave: I'm the one who brought up the "metal instead" in this thread. My misunderstanding I guess. I just figured that this was one of those thing that DP9's "promise" covered.

The point you made about an actual disaster, such as the ship with everything on it sinking is perfectly fine, you just weren't as clear back a couple years ago when it was said. (or I'm remembering wrong)

One of the little irritants though with the change is that I'm loosing two models (4 because I'm getting two starters). -1 TIger, and -1 sidewinder, +1 acco (whole thing x2). That isn't counting the three I had as add-ons. Sure I'm getting some guns, but based on the sprues shown, I'm getting the weapons I want already.

Now I understand that things happen, and I'm not mad, just a bit worried. The KS is already 3 months behind, and falling farther, granted for what I feel is a good reason, and now this.

Yeah, it was in case they were unable to deliver on the plastics, such as the tools sinking to the bottom of the Pacific.

In the great scheme of things it's a couple of miniatures, and it's not like it's a pre-order. The whole point of Kickstarter is to support a business so it can get going. They can give incentives and whatnot, but the idea is that we give them money and hopefully they stay in business; if we received some products in return then that's even better.

People that pledge $1 so they can be rude about it, well, I don't know what to say about that. I suppose every dollar helps.

Nomeny wrote:
People that pledge $1 so they can be rude about it, well, I don't know what to say about that. I suppose every dollar helps.

I don't think anyone pledged $1.00 CAD just so they can be rude about it but rather they likely only pledged that much because they were worried there would be preventable and forseeable complications like this one that would negatively impact their pledge. I personally don't think that the negative changes made to the deal are significant enough to warrant the reaction they are getting but each person sees the situation differently. I suppose my reaction would be harsher had I pledged more than $1 especially if I had done so specifically for Polar forces.

 warboss wrote:

Nomeny wrote:
People that pledge $1 so they can be rude about it, well, I don't know what to say about that. I suppose every dollar helps.

I don't think anyone pledged $1.00 CAD just so they can be rude about it but rather they likely only pledged that much because they were worried there would be preventable and forseeable complications like this one that would negatively impact their pledge. I personally don't think that the negative changes made to the deal are significant enough to warrant the reaction they are getting but each person sees the situation differently. I suppose my reaction would be harsher had I pledged more than $1 especially if I had done so specifically for Polar forces.

This. I pledged $1 because I was interested but not convinced, and the further development didn't sell me enough to upgrade it.

Nomeny wrote:
[..] The whole point of Kickstarter is to support a business so it can get going. They can give incentives and whatnot, but the idea is that we give them money and hopefully they stay in business; if we received some products in return then that's even better.

You pledge and then you get the rewards at whatever level you pledged.
There is no ''if'', period; because if a company is not obligated to give you anything then you have made a donation and not a pledge.

And while supporting their business may on some levels be the point of them doing a KS, from what I've seen in practice most companies/creators only end up collecting enough to offer a limited set of items that can't otherwise be produced with existing resources.
If in the end it turns out the company is solvent enough that it can take advantage of a new manufacturing process or single product and keep offering either in the future, well, that is not always something that can be foreseen no matter the intent.


There were good reasons I asked Dave earlier on this page about funding going towards ''pops'' intended only for the distribution or warehousing of retail boxes; primarily because from the Pod's own comments there doesn't seem to be enough left over in the KS take/budget to do that.

 Smilodon_UP wrote:

 DP9Dave wrote:
[..] musing/
I'm also sure that every game company producing in metal right now is looking at plastic as the only way forward.

Approximately what percentage of the overall KS funds pledged has been earmarked for any potential bulk discount on the total number of ''pops'' produced (above that of the KS backers) that are intended solely to fill retail boxes for the warehouse. [..]

By collecting the funds, DP9 is now obligated to reward their backers, but if insufficient funds are left to produce retail stock then quite simply the Pod will have to accept that not enough is left and retail boxes aren't going to happen.

 Albertorius wrote:

 warboss wrote:

Nomeny wrote:
People that pledge $1 so they can be rude about it, well, I don't know what to say about that. I suppose every dollar helps.

I don't think anyone pledged $1.00 CAD just so they can be rude about it but rather they likely only pledged that much because they were worried there would be preventable and forseeable complications like this one that would negatively impact their pledge. [..]

This. I pledged $1 because I was interested but not convinced, and the further development didn't sell me enough to upgrade it.

I guess we've circled back to that ''just give them $$$ and everything'll work out'' meta again....

Can't find an opponent locally? - take advantage of [this] bundled sale to get you everything one player needs to play.
Can't get anyone to play the game? - take advantage of [this] sale on the [current] ruleset, which will have an errata, FAQ, and (another) edit soon; we promise.

Your army list got invalidated by the [current] ruleset? - buy [these] new more expensive models, some of which are in [this] sale btw, to fix it by fielding completely different types of combat groups for which you'll also need [these] models.

Don't like the plastic KS sculpts, or don't need any more of those models? - pledge $115CAD anyways.
Don't like the computer game, where almost no one is ever on to play against, being made by a company whose own future is in doubt? - drop the $$$ anyways, because hey, it's only another $40USD.



I still see just a bit of a disconnect in all that.
Likewise, if pledging $1 doesn't entitle anyone to question, complain, or ''be rude'', why does spending $150,406 collected from 1,015 folks allow the same.

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 Mmmpi wrote:
So, to Dave: I'm the one who brought up the "metal instead" in this thread. My misunderstanding I guess. I just figured that this was one of those thing that DP9's "promise" covered.

The point you made about an actual disaster, such as the ship with everything on it sinking is perfectly fine, you just weren't as clear back a couple years ago when it was said. (or I'm remembering wrong)

One of the little irritants though with the change is that I'm loosing two models (4 because I'm getting two starters). -1 TIger, and -1 sidewinder, +1 acco (whole thing x2). That isn't counting the three I had as add-ons. Sure I'm getting some guns, but based on the sprues shown, I'm getting the weapons I want already.

Now I understand that things happen, and I'm not mad, just a bit worried. The KS is already 3 months behind, and falling farther, granted for what I feel is a good reason, and now this.

Well the molds are being made right now. We'll have updates as we get them for you. They should be done by March. At this point we're still looking at the production run for fundraising fulfillment happening before April. As things progress we will adjust. As we've said all along, we'd rather take a little extra time and get it right than rush it. I'm happy that we're only three months late at this point. Getting all the backer rewards out by the end of June is starting to look very possible with the Wave 1 being shipped in April if all goes without a hitch (Knock wood). AS I've said, not an ideal situation, but not enough to sideline the project.

-Dave

And heck, it could be worse: http://www.pcworld.com/article/3028601/software/ant-simulator-game-canceled-after-devs-blow-kickstarter-funds-on-strippers-and-booze.html?utm_source=fark&utm_medium=website&utm_content=link

Wasn't the whole thing supposed to designed and made in the US ? I remember DP9 very proudly boasting about this, and how it'd make things much easier by staying on the same continent.
I certainly don't remember any mention of a Chinese company in there...

Production of the actual plastic bits is happening in the US, as I understand it.

Correct. Plastic Production will be done with an American company on the mainland USA. The molds are made in China since that is where you have to go to get molds like this made at a cost effective price. The US company we are working with exclusively makes their molds in China.

Wait, do you mean I could have had strippers instead? Damnnn. Well that boat sailed a long time ago. I'm joking of course, I would have spent that money on filling my basement with dice three feet deep.

-Dave

So, the KS has the weapon sprues up. Some of them look cool, though a lot of that depends on the look of the model carrying it.

In-progress photos of the mold plates are up!

Indeed. I'm glad to see that it's progressing.

Nomeny wrote:
In-progress photos of the mold plates are up!

Now if only the renders that got used to cut them had been like the very few examples shown during the KS campaign, then the Pod could have garnered another few hundred $$$ from at least one person, what with the pledge manager still being open and all.
But of course since the crappy barely even toy-like designs were considered ''good enough'' by the Pod for this, we can all certainly know what to expect from any similar projects should any be offered in the future; just imagine the renders if less money got collected.

 HudsonD wrote:
Wasn't the whole thing supposed to designed and made in the US ? I remember DP9 very proudly boasting about this, and how it'd make things much easier by staying on the same continent.
I certainly don't remember any mention of a Chinese company in there...

 DP9Dave wrote:
[..] The molds are made in China since that is where you have to go to get molds like this made at a cost effective price. The US company we are working with exclusively makes their molds in China.

Yeah, as far as I can find out searching back posts and threads here or elsewhere that part was never specifically mentioned at all.
In fact, China was made mention of by Dave only one time here, in relation to whether or not companies there need earthquake insurance.

So no, there was no transparency on that issue.


About the same really as how almost an entire month later both Dave and Robert are still ducking the question that cutting enough unlocked models to not make a sixth steel mold was anything more than padding the budget towards producing retail boxes a la Palladium Books.
The decision clearly never had any consideration given for the backers as the ~$15K (from pledges) was available for another mold; from all appearances TPTB in Pod-land simply didn't want to spring for it just for the sake of ''two models'' folks can already buy in the revamped for NuBlitz! (2014) GP boxes.


Oddly enough TPTB at DP9, despite ample evidence to the contrary on a number of occasions, insist on thinking their player- and fan-base is composed of 13 to 18 year old folks just starting out in the world.
However, when a title's audience is primarily folks in their mid-to late 30s, 40s, and even 50s, there are lots of folks who've contributed to and run projects or whatnot, if not portions of companies - people who do know responsibility.

 DP9Dave wrote:
[..] Imagine being in the trenches through this making these decisions and be glad you don't have to be the one to make them.

Could explain why those not drinking the kood-aid are so easily able to see though the attempted smoke screens, hype, and double-talk to get a real read on how Dream Pod 9 operates.

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I think it would be nice if this thread were used for the KS content, instead of HG General Discussion. Like it says in the subject.

Otherwise, we should have the Mods lock this thread.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Look! The Pod shared a new picture on the KS:

... and a new Update announces a matchmaking service!

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
... and a new Update announces a matchmaking service!

Sweet! I like candlelit dinners, walks on the beach, and 150tv urban skirmishes. I'm hoping I find that special someone who shares the same interests!

In all seriousness, it's nice that they're doing something on that front. The pessimist in me just thinks that I'll see one lonely blip in my major US metro area if I sign up.

I'd start with coffee before committing to serious gaming.

There are 100s of HG players across the world. If you live in a major metro, there should be another player. The big question is whether you'd be willing to drive across town for a game of HG. In the greater SoCal area, that can be a big hurdle.

Evey time I see those, the nearest players tend to be in other countries, so...

I've actually run into a couple people in my area who play/want to play. This might actually be useful. Is it HG only, or can I use it for my other games too?

 Mmmpi wrote:
I've actually run into a couple people in my area who play/want to play. This might actually be useful. Is it HG only, or can I use it for my other games too?

I just registered in my a few minutes of down time. There is a list of games to choose from (about two dozen) with most of the best sellers. For instance, 40k X-wing and Heavy Gear were on there from my personal play interests but Halo Fleet Battles was not. And, as I predicted, no opponents within the largest search paramater they allow (100 miles). I know it's early but it just reinforces my own personal experience visiting virutally (via forums) and physically most stores in that area inquiring about HG interest in the past. Eh, who knows. The guy I bought RAFM stuff from didn't know about the plastics when I mentioned them and I offered for us to try the rules out (he has a small blitz collection as well) when the final version shakes out the end. Since he lives roughly 100 miles away (the store we met at was around 70 miles away and he said he lived another 30 miles past it), it won't be a regular thing but maybe I'll get a game a season in if we both end up liking/tolerating the rules.

Yeah, 100 miles is a very long way. Farther than I'd want to drive for a game of HG. For me, I'll have better luck working on KL.

Just signed up for Rumbl myself. I figure I'll see how it pans out. I had no opponents for HG in 100 miles, but I didn't have any 40K opponents in the same range, and my local 40k meta is fairly active. There could be at least a few possible opponents who just don't have the service.

I wouldn't expect much else to be there. 40k players generally don't have to jump through hoops to find opponents given it's the most popular game out there according to ICV2 and has been for at least a decade. Also, the app/site/program is still in beta apparently and quite buggy so I'd guess that the few 40k players listed probably signed up primarily for another game or just accidentally stumbled onto it. I wouldn't read much into a lack of 40k players. If anything, I'd say simply ask your local players if they've even heard about the app. I'm guessing almost all will say no.

HG/DP9 though is doing a concerted active push to get folks to sign up though so a lack of player numbers in that particular case in a few months would be an accurate indicator of simply a lack of players overall. If you backed the KS, you got a message about it. If you visit their forums, you got a message about it. If they have an email mailing list, you'll probably get one there too. They're trying to organize fans in anticipation of the plastics release and I think that is a good idea at least in theory.

I don't disagree with anything. My point was perfectly clarified when you said we'll see in a few months.

In theory, the KS backers will find each other via this Grindr app, seeding the gaming community, and creating a groundswell of retail demand. Profit!

Technically it's Rumbl. Grindr will find you something else...

Nomeny wrote:
Technically it's Rumbl. Grindr will find you something else...

I'm pretty sure he knows, he was just being 'funny'.