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 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 warboss wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

HG's total complexity is the same as Robotech!
http://damommasboyz.com/sodapop/rtsquadrons/battlecry.html

Go count the different models Robotech offers. It's basically the same 20 sculpts, same hard plastic material, same issues.

What Robotech did different was to run off a lot more copies of things. That's why backers are getting 9 Valkyries instead of 5.

3x Valkyrie sprues (1 for each mode)
2x Destroid sprues
Mac II
Ghost
Lancer
Super Valkryie - add bitz
Armored Valkyrie
VEF/VT
Vf-4
Jotun
Rick Hunter - different stats, same Valk
Roy Fokker - different stats, same Valk

Battlepod
Officer Pod
Recon Pod - add bitz
Recovery Pod
Artillery Pods - add bitz
Glaug Sled
Male Power Armor
Female Power Armor
Gnerl Fighter
Miriya - different stats, same Valk
Khyron - different stats, same Valk
Zentraedi Light Infantry
Zentraedi Heavy Infantry

2 objectives packs with 6 different objective models
SDF-1

Depending on how you add that stuff together (and I'm not counting the various "experimental" unlocks as they're part of the regular sprues now and counting the 3 objectives in each pack as one sprue/sculpt), that comes to roughly 30 different products.

Heavy Gear has 16 currently according to this graphic:

Spoiler:

Robotech has 21 models, plus bitz and and terrain.
Heavy Gear has 16 models, plus bitz and terrain.

The workload is essentially similar.

I've listed them out for you and it isn't 21. You can keep sticking your head in the sand to not see the facts but that doesn't mean they're not right in front of you. Even if you subtract the 3 "bitz and terrain" stuff I included, it comes to 27... which is significantly more than 16.

Dude, if you insist to compare apples to oranges, then the "correct" count is 21 Robotech models (ignoring the Robotech bitz) vs 23 Gears (16 base models +7 bitz variants). In that case, Heavy Gear has more models but less revenue.

Otherwise, if you don't count a Gear with an Antenna (which HG names as a different thing), then you can't count a Pod or Valk with an antenna, simple as that. In which case, we are at 21 Robotech models vs 16 Heavy Gear models, as above.

I'm not counting any of those as separate. Here.. I'll put it in all caps... EVERY SINGLE KIT I LISTED IS A FULLY INDEPENDENT PRODUCT THAT DOES NOT REQUIRE ANY OTHER PRODUCT TO BUILD AND REQUIRES IT'S OWN SPRUE/MOULD. There are no "variants" that I listed as individual products. Any variants or combo sprues were listed as a SINGLE item (see the VEF/VT entry). The artillery pods are on a completely separate sprue, not just bits on the standard pod sprue and required separate moulds. The 3 valkryie sprues are not "variants" with different antenna but each significantly different mode that requires it's own sprue and is its own model. The glaug sled is a completely separate and independent model from the glaug and is not just a "bit" thrown in to the normal glaug kit. I'm not counting each variant of the veritech as separate which would correspond to your completely inaccurate comparison. Your argument is based completely on ignorance despite being presented with the facts. I'm not comparing apples to oranges but rather you're declaring apples to be a vegetable because you saw a red vegetable once.

To anyone looking to back the project the newest update has a recap of the most relevant Updates for new backers to make it easy for you to find the content you need.

Update #57

Here is the image of the current set for backers. Over a $300 value for only a $115 CAD (approx $100USD).
There are 68 hours remaining in the Kickstarter.



There has been some controversy about the make up of the final starter set since for retailers we started with a basic 16 miniatures: 6 boxes for $350 for FLGS retailers, with an option now unlocked for 46 miniatures or 6 boxes for $500 for retailers. This deal was alos to allow free shipping in North America.

We've had some feedback from retailers and clients who, though liking the set, have pointed out that the price point is quite high compared to a lot of the market. We've agreed that we will provide the rewards as written but will evaluate the mass market starter set that the Kickstarter is supporting to be in line with what is offered. This may mean a more restricted number of factions or miniatures in the final starter set as we do all the planning that will finalize the contents.

There was concern raised that this was Dream Pod 9 changing the terms of the kickstarter. That we were bound by the stated goal of a 46 miniature starter set to produce that set for retail and are somehow contractually obligated to produce that for the market even if the market would then tell us that we had to draw back our plans. We understand completely that our rewards cannot change in any way and we will fulfill those conditions to our backers by giving them an awesome set of miniatures for their support of the kickstarter.

However in our FAQ we clearly state:

Q) Will there be a retail version of the Core Starter Set and how much will it cost?
A) Yes, we will have a Retail Basic Pledge level at the start with 6 copies of the Basic Starter Set of 16 miniatures for a $350 CAD pledge, with a SRP of $79.99 USD ($92 CAD) each.
We'll be announcing an updated retailer package after the Kickstarter is done and we see how may stretch goals have been unlocked.

No matter how many stretch goals are unlocked, our business plan of producing a new core starter set to rejuvenate the Heavy Gear Blitz brand has not changed, and that is what our backers are helping us to do. If the new starter set has to be scaled back from the originally intended number of figures to something friendlier to beginner players then that is the correct thing to do. It's a business decision and one that we're OK to make. The Starter set for retail might be near the same number of miniatures our backers are getting as a reward for more $ or it might be significantly less. If we decide that the North versus South is the best kit to make then maybe we get a 12 v 12 starter set for $80-100 depending on what's in there. Maybe we get a North and South Leagueless tag team versus CEF with Caprice Support with 12 v 10 in the set for $80-$100. It's a question of complexity versus ease of play for a new player. Value versus Cost.

The backers will get their rewards of all the models that get unlocked, and after that there will be a new starter set released for the mass market. That's pretty much what we've covenanted with our backers to do and it's what we will do.
Cheers!
Dave


Automatically Appended Next Post:
PS Gentlemen the conversation you are having about other kickstarters is very off topic and in danger of starting a flame war. Please keep the conversation on the topic of news about the Kickstarter as that is this thread's purpose.

Cheers!
Dav

 DP9Dave wrote:

We've had some feedback from retailers and clients who, though liking the set, have pointed out that the price point is quite high compared to a lot of the market. We've agreed that we will provide the rewards as written but will evaluate the mass market starter set that the Kickstarter is supporting to be in line with what is offered. This may mean a more restricted number of factions or miniatures in the final starter set as we do all the planning that will finalize the contents.

There was concern raised that this was Dream Pod 9 changing the terms of the kickstarter. That we were bound by the stated goal of a 46 miniature starter set to produce that set for retail and are somehow contractually obligated to produce that for the market even if the market would then tell us that we had to draw back our plans. We understand completely that our rewards cannot change in any way and we will fulfill those conditions to our backers by giving them an awesome set of miniatures for their support of the kickstarter.

However in our FAQ we clearly state:

Q) Will there be a retail version of the Core Starter Set and how much will it cost?
A) Yes, we will have a Retail Basic Pledge level at the start with 6 copies of the Basic Starter Set of 16 miniatures for a $350 CAD pledge, with a SRP of $79.99 USD ($92 CAD) each.
We'll be announcing an updated retailer package after the Kickstarter is done and we see how may stretch goals have been unlocked.

No matter how many stretch goals are unlocked, our business plan of producing a new core starter set to rejuvenate the Heavy Gear Blitz brand has not changed, and that is what our backers are helping us to do. If the new starter set has to be scaled back from the originally intended number of figures to something friendlier to beginner players then that is the correct thing to do. It's a business decision and one that we're OK to make.

Dave, I'd point out that that feedback is EXACTLY what you got prior to the kickstarter from certain posters including myself. I've said all along that the $115 price point was too high and was pretty much ignored as was the poll you yourself specifically set up to see what fans wanted in the starter despite the results being overwhelming and the direction wanted crystal clear. As for your FAQ where you "clearly state" the above, you added that just a few days ago when you also started hinting at the changes. You may be surprised to find out that KS time stamps changes/additions to the FAQ portion. It wasn't clear because it specifically contradicts what was stated for a month prior to the KS and for 80% of the duration of the KS right up until just a few days ago.

I thought I had a KS problem

Thanks to Page 14 here, I no longer feel bad. At all.

Gracias!

In the lead up to the Kickstarter there were many voices telling us many things and we made the choice that a two side (Terra Nova vs Invaders) box would be more interesting than another North v South box. We had to face the fact that if the kickstarter barely took off and we only got our basic goal that we would only get two factions. In that case we knew that for sheer popularity we would have to have the North and South factions since that is what would have the greatest long term benefits for production costs.

We underestimated how much players really gravitate to one faction or the other. The reality of what we have to do with the Blitz starter is getting clearer to us. If anyone's good advice was overlooked then all I can do is ask for your sympathy. Making decisions like that is hard because we can try to be innovative or we can can follow the flow. I'd compare it to trying to follow a forum thread that is growing faster than you can read it, there's just no way to catch everything being said.

Hey, 799 backers!

Cheers!
Dave

I'm....not clear on this. In simple words, what's happened that's got people upset?

@Cergorach I have read your comments here, in the KS, and DP9 discussion threads for the KS.

I respect your decision, and I respect you for laying out your decision clearly to everyone. It is your investment. If you do change your mind, or don't, it won't change the fact that you are clearly a fan of the game. So I hope to continue to see you around. God bless.

Edit: Firebreak, just a decision by the Pod concerning retail sets.

 warboss wrote:

As for your FAQ where you "clearly state" the above, you added that just a few days ago when you also started hinting at the changes. You may be surprised to find out that KS time stamps changes/additions to the FAQ portion. It wasn't clear because it specifically contradicts what was stated for a month prior to the KS and for 80% of the duration of the KS right up until just a few days ago.

We update the FAQ for typos for how the phrasing matches the question being asked. IIRC on the 16th we had only just reached the 13th stretch goal where we had originally stated we would open up a larger retail set as a reward level for the brick and mortars.

I'll get the original text from Rob tomorrow as it is on his computer at the office. Then it can be compared side by side.

A good quote from the Kickstarter comments section in relation to this: "I think it's a far more valuable, to me as a consumer, to know that the company I am purchasing from is flexible and willing to make changes than knowing that they're not going to budge from a point come Hell-or-high-water."

Even though the kickstarter is not going to finish as high as we would have hoped the good news is that it means we might be able to shorten our schedule due to less models needing to be 3D sculpted and a shorter production run being required. It's not a great consolation prize but worthy of note.
Cheers!
Dave

@warboss - stop being ridiculous. SPM didn't reinvent the basic Valk or Pod for the ELINT versions. They didn't say "welp, throw all of that work on the basic Pod away, because this one has an antenna." They're not as ridiculous as you are proving yourself to be.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DP9Dave wrote:
PS Gentlemen the conversation you are having about other kickstarters is very off topic and in danger of starting a flame war. Please keep the conversation on the topic of news about the Kickstarter as that is this thread's purpose.

Cheers!
Dav

Dave, the comparison with Robotech is very relevant.

Compared to Robotech, DP9 has 1/10 the revenue to do 80-90% of the same design work.

Ninja Division / Palladium ended up running over a year late on initial delivery of their project, despite vastly greater financial resources to work with.

With the 4-fold increase in scope, from 4 models to 16, what makes you think you can deliver on time in November, 2015? What are you going to do better, faster (12 months vs 18 months), and cheaper (1/10 the budget) compared to those guys, so that this project doesn't drag far into 2016? Or even 2017?

Does the quoted price still hold for a short production run of 1000-2000 units to support <1000 backers vs a standard production run of 5000+ units?

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
@warboss - stop being ridiculous. SPM didn't reinvent the basic Valk or Pod for the ELINT versions. They didn't say "welp, throw all of that work on the basic Pod away, because this one has an antenna." They're not as ridiculous as you are proving yourself to be.

And you're being incredibly ignorant thinking that the 3d modelling is the end all and be all off the work and cost involved in bringing a model to the tabletop. Having some parts of a 3d model that you can reuse saves you nothing on the new mould or the cost per shot in making those models. If anything, the 3d modelling cost is the smaller compared with the other two. Take your blinders off before responding next time. You've shown a consider lack of common sense and reading comprehension since you started posting again after all those years away.

 DP9Dave wrote:

We update the FAQ for typos for how the phrasing matches the question being asked. IIRC on the 16th we had only just reached the 13th stretch goal where we had originally stated we would open up a larger retail set as a reward level for the brick and mortars.

I'll get the original text from Rob tomorrow as it is on his computer at the office. Then it can be compared side by side.

No need, I've found it.

Will there be a retail version of the Core Starter Set and how much will it cost?
Yes, we will have a Retail Basic Pledge level at the start with 6 copies of the Basic Starter Set of 16 miniatures for a $350 CAD pledge, with a SRP of $79.99 USD ($92 CAD) each.
If we reach stretch goal #13 a Retail Core Pledge Level with 6 copies of the new Core Starter Set Retail Version will become available for Retail Backers, with 46 minis and color quick start rulebook for a $500 CAD pledge, with a SRP of $114.99 USD ($132 CAD). It would not include any additional miniatures past those of stretch goal 13, that our normal backers would get.

Retailer Core Pledge Level $500 CAD (Unlimited Retail Backers) (Available after Stretch Goal 13 Unlocks)
Retailer Core Level – This reward level gets you 6 copies of the War for Terra Nova - Core Starter Set retail version. The contents of the retail version will include all miniatures up to and including Stretch Goal 13, including 46 miniatures with a variety of eighteen figures and all materials required to play. Proof of brick and mortar retailer status is required to select the Retailer Core Pledge Level. Pledge reward will ship out in our 4th wave. Includes shipping for USA and Canadian Retailer Backers. International Retailer Backers pay actual shipping costs.

http://dp9forum.com/index.php?showtopic=16567&page=8#entry290335

And more recently from the KS comments from November 2nd in regards to specifically this same question of what the retail version will be:

Creator Dream Pod 9 on November 2
@ William. Right now the retail version will only be the Basic Starter Set with 16 miniatures. It is our desire the have one the would include the miniatures up to the $105K stretch goal, and we need everyone's support to pay for the plastic molds and make that and higher stretch goals a reality.

and the earlier question that this answers:

"@DP9, was reading the front page again, will the original 16 model starter set be available at retail addition to the 46 model starter set? The core set we end up with here will be the final retail version? (up to the $105k stretch goal) or have I misunderstood something?"

Dave, don't get me wrong. You have the right to change the retail version to whatever you want legally as long as you still meet the KS obligations. Just let's not pretend that it is "clear" or that this isn't a big change. For over a month in this current version of the KS plans (I won't go back to check on the previous two previews posted on the forums but it may go back even further), we've been consistently told that the stretch goals unlock extras in the retail version as well up to goal #13/$105k. Some folks pledged based on the premise that they were improving the retail version that would grow the community and future customers would get. That changed sometime over the last couple of days when things like the FAQ question and update started singing a different tune. Again, you have the right to change anything you want in the retail version as a company but not to pretend that it has been what you've been saying all along. You quoted someone who praises the company for being responsive but the above can also be construed as a lack of a clear vision and planning. For a company with a history of broken promises and short sighted decisions stretching back decades that is supposedly turning over a new leaf (again), this type of a change this late in the KS game is troubling. If this is in response to retailer feedback, why the heck wasn't that feedback elicited in the MONTHS preceding the KS? Or at least last month when the same issues were brought up by fans/customers/future and potential pledgers? Why did this only happen in the final week of the campaign? That isn't proactive but reactive bordering on procrastination. For a company that is asking for the money upfront a year ahead of time, that isn't a good thing. It begs the question of what other seemingly common sense things were missed.





Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:


With the 4-fold increase in scope, from 4 models to 16, what makes you think you can deliver on time in November, 2015? What are you going to do better, faster (12 months vs 18 months), and cheaper (1/10 the budget) compared to those guys, so that this project doesn't drag far into 2016? Or even 2017?

A good question... and one IIRC that I asked about a half dozen times in two separate KS preview threads to no avail. Unless they (correctly) budgeted the time for ALL the stretch goals to be completed by the delivery due date of Nov 2015, there is no way that the quadrupling of the workload from the initial "funded" level won't delay the KS further. If it is delayed, they can't say they weren't warned.

 DP9Dave wrote:
PS Gentlemen the conversation you are having about other kickstarters is very off topic and in danger of starting a flame war. Please keep the conversation on the topic of news about the Kickstarter as that is this thread's purpose.

I'd say that comparing one KS with other similar ones, to try and ascertain possible challenges and troubles that might arise is pretty much on topic, Dave.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
@warboss - stop being ridiculous. SPM didn't reinvent the basic Valk or Pod for the ELINT versions. They didn't say "welp, throw all of that work on the basic Pod away, because this one has an antenna." They're not as ridiculous as you are proving yourself to be.

Hm, I don't really think that gauging the project's complexity and above all costs involved by the amount of different sprues needed to be made is all that ridiculous. I mean, yes, the different valks' and regults' sprues can share most of the 3d design, but they still needed to be made into separate sprues, so at least cost wise is important to differentiate them.

As far as we know, the current HG KS project (with the current achieved SGs) needs to make a grand total of 16 different, separate sprues, as they are rolling the variant mini stretches into the original sprues. If I'm not mistaken, the Robotech project is going to need more than 16 separate sprues to complete all the designs. The problem for HG, of course, is that they'll need to do a very significant amount of separate sprues in a very tight budged, whereas the Robotech project had a lot more dough to spare (and... well, see how well the Robotech project is doing right now).

Taken from the KS page :

Finally there is a chance that we cannot provide a model that has been included in the kickstarter due to problems with the molding process or simply not enough interest in that figure as an add on sale. If that is the case then we will provide backers with the opportunity to use some credit to choose from the other models produced.

Should that happen, will you also offer reimbursements ?

 HudsonD wrote:
Taken from the KS page :

Finally there is a chance that we cannot provide a model that has been included in the kickstarter due to problems with the molding process or simply not enough interest in that figure as an add on sale. If that is the case then we will provide backers with the opportunity to use some credit to choose from the other models produced.

Should that happen, will you also offer reimbursements ?

I would hope so. If they have difficulty with the caprice frankensprue as I suspect, dropping that would pretty much decimate the value for anyone who pledged specifically for that faction (whether on the $115 pledge or the smaller 1 faction level).

The major plus point DP9 has is the ability to change their designs (slightly) is they need to for ease of manufacture,

as a licenced product (with extra complications) the Robotech stuff had to be done to match old animation cells with no wiggle room for stuff that was a pain to mould or requires fiddly bits to add on...

plus all the time and money spent on back and forward from ninja divison to palladium to harmony gold and back.. repeat as many times as needed

this SHOULD allow DP9 to save considerable time and money and quite possibly come up with an easier to assemble product

whether they've asked enough to do so I'm uncertain but I think they do have a shot

 HudsonD wrote:
Taken from the KS page :

Finally there is a chance that we cannot provide a model that has been included in the kickstarter due to problems with the molding process or simply not enough interest in that figure as an add on sale. If that is the case then we will provide backers with the opportunity to use some credit to choose from the other models produced.

Should that happen, will you also offer reimbursements ?

Backers will be able to Choose from what is available. There is no reason at this time to believe that there will be any problems. We were originally planning to offer a couple of figures as only add-on sales and wanted the option to not offer them if there was too little interest.

Just in case there are problems the backer will be offered an alternate selection. We cannot offer reimbursements on a project like this due to most of the money being invested in molds.

Cheers!
Dave

 DP9Dave wrote:

 HudsonD wrote:
Taken from the KS page :

Finally there is a chance that we cannot provide a model that has been included in the kickstarter due to problems with the molding process or simply not enough interest in that figure as an add on sale. If that is the case then we will provide backers with the opportunity to use some credit to choose from the other models produced.

Should that happen, will you also offer reimbursements ?

Backers will be able to Choose from what is available. There is no reason at this time to believe that there will be any problems. We were originally planning to offer a couple of figures as only add-on sales and wanted the option to not offer them if there was too little interest.

Just in case there are problems the backer will be offered an alternate selection. We cannot offer reimbursements on a project like this due to most of the money being invested in molds.

Cheers!
Dave

If you were originally planning that but are now (from the wording of the post above) not planning it anymore, wouldn't it make sense to remove that catch all disclaimer instead of leaving it in since the original reason is moot? As it stands, you can pretty much choose unilaterally to not make whatever ends up inconvenient or costly no matter what you promised in the KS with that blanket statement. That caprice frankensprue is too troublesome? You can just drop it and force folks to pick more minis that they already have in all likelihood.

Here is the text from the Kickstarter Preview:

Will there be a retail version of the Core Starter Set and how much will it cost?
Yes, we will have a Retail Basic Pledge level at the start with 6 copies of the Basic Starter Set of 16 miniatures for a $350 CAD pledge, with a SRP of $79.99 USD ($92 CAD) each.
If we reach stretch goal #13 a Retail Core Pledge Level with 6 copies of the new Core Starter Set Retail Version will become available for Retail Backers, with 46 minis and color quick start rulebook for a $500 CAD pledge, with a SRP of $114.99 USD ($132 CAD). It would not include any additional miniatures past those of stretch goal 13, that our normal backers would get.

Here is the current updated text in response to feedback:

Yes, we will have a Retail Basic Pledge level at the start with 6 copies of the Basic Starter Set of 16 miniatures for a $350 CAD pledge, with a SRP of $79.99 USD ($92 CAD) each.
We'll be announcing an updated retailer package after the Kickstarter is done and we see how may stretch goals have been unlocked. Last updated: Sun, Nov 16 2014 8:31 PM EST

Note that one of the current available reward levels is a Retailer reward level for six sets at $500 with shipping included for North America. So the condition is met.

48 Hours left!

Cheers!
Dave




Automatically Appended Next Post:
@Warboss - Most kickstarters have a statement like that - Cav had one. It's a prudent move for situations that come up. What you seem to be insinuating is gross and wilful negligence on our part and I feel that is unwarrented and insulting.

It's a kickstarter. It's economic democracy in action. Back it now, or not, the choice is yours.
*shrug*

Cheers!
Dave

 DP9Dave wrote:

@Warboss - Most kickstarters have a statement like that - Cav had one. It's a prudent move for situations that come up. What you seem to be insinuating is gross and wilful negligence on our part and I feel that is unwarrented and insulting.

It's a kickstarter. It's economic democracy in action. Back it now, or not, the choice is yours.
*shrug*

Cheers!
Dave

No, what I'm flat out stating is that DP9 does what is best in the short term for DP9 regardless of the negative long term consequences to themselves or the immediate and lasting negative consequences to the community. It is absolutely the pattern that the company has displayed for two decades that is supposedly changing with this Kickstarter. Disappointing surprises are a common complaint with DP9 and that blanket disclaimer pretty much leaves any change you feel is good for the company open with no refund option for the customer. You've just "amended" what you previously had stated for over a month in the last days of the KS... and you're surprised that a catch all "get out of jail free with no refund" clause is raising an eyebrow? You're right... it is democracy in action. It is my choice to back it or not and it is yours (and Robert's) to fulfill or ignore significant portions since you feel strongly about leaving the supposedly unnecessary disclaimer in. We'll see how this all turns out a year from now at the estimated delivery date.

JohnHwangDD wrote:
Dave, the comparison with Robotech is very relevant.

Compared to Robotech, DP9 has 1/10 the revenue to do 80-90% of the same design work.

Ninja Division / Palladium ended up running over a year late on initial delivery of their project, despite vastly greater financial resources to work with.

With the 4-fold increase in scope, from 4 models to 16, what makes you think you can deliver on time in November, 2015? What are you going to do better, faster (12 months vs 18 months), and cheaper (1/10 the budget) compared to those guys, so that this project doesn't drag far into 2016? Or even 2017?

The revenue to tooling ratio does seem very iffy here. So much design and tooling to make injection moulded plastics, but a small amount of money to cover it.

 Albertorius wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
SPM didn't reinvent the basic Valk or Pod for the ELINT versions. They didn't say "welp, throw all of that work on the basic Pod away, because this one has an antenna."

Hm, I don't really think that gauging the project's complexity and above all costs involved by the amount of different sprues needed to be made is all that ridiculous. I mean, yes, the different valks' and regults' sprues can share most of the 3d design, but they still needed to be made into separate sprues, so at least cost wise is important to differentiate them.

As far as we know, the current HG KS project (with the current achieved SGs) needs to make a grand total of 16 different, separate sprues, as they are rolling the variant mini stretches into the original sprues. If I'm not mistaken, the Robotech project is going to need more than 16 separate sprues to complete all the designs. The problem for HG, of course, is that they'll need to do a very significant amount of separate sprues in a very tight budged, whereas the Robotech project had a lot more dough to spare (and... well, see how well the Robotech project is doing right now).

I believe the hard work is the sculpting and separation, not sprue layout; although there is additional cost to cut a new tool to mold from. Sprues can be reconfigured, or mini-sprues added. Or tools designed with gates. For example, I might lay out a sprue as [A [BASE] C] with the ability to gate off A and/or C when I run the machine. This allows me to have a BASE, BASE+A, BASE+C, or BASE+A+C as 4 "different" sprues. If the base is a Valk, A is Super, and C is ELINT, I can cover all 4 combinations of ELINT Super Valkyrie with a single smart tool, even though I produce 4 separate SKUs for 4 "different" models. The incremental cost of Super and ELINT are very small, as their complexity is relatively low.

Or I could GW it and always produce everything, including Armored as part of that sprue, and sell it as a "4-in-1" kit, leaving a ton of "bitz" left over.

As of this morning, DP9 is now obliged to make 17 models. It's a lot of work, despite having what appears to be a full calendar year to work with. Robotech was a year late, and has only delivered Wave 1. I'm very curious how DP9 proceeds and delivers on a shoestring budget. Especially with these later units being large models requiring larger tools to be cut.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

Or I could GW it and always produce everything, including Armored as part of that sprue, and sell it as a "4-in-1" kit, leaving a ton of "bitz" left over.

Yes please!!

Gimmie those spare Gear parts!

 DP9Dave wrote:

 HudsonD wrote:
Taken from the KS page :

Finally there is a chance that we cannot provide a model that has been included in the kickstarter due to problems with the molding process or simply not enough interest in that figure as an add on sale. If that is the case then we will provide backers with the opportunity to use some credit to choose from the other models produced.

Should that happen, will you also offer reimbursements ?

Backers will be able to Choose from what is available. There is no reason at this time to believe that there will be any problems. We were originally planning to offer a couple of figures as only add-on sales and wanted the option to not offer them if there was too little interest.

Just in case there are problems the backer will be offered an alternate selection. We cannot offer reimbursements on a project like this due to most of the money being invested in molds.

Cheers!
Dave

What the feth is this "choose from what is available" gak? If the only thing you make available are Jagers, because Spitting Cobras become too expensive to produce, are we to presume that swapping in more Jagers is a suitable resolution to not getting Spitting Cobras? Especially if we are only backing due to the sheer variety of models? Or maybe the whole thing becomes a mess, so we get 90% credit in the DP9 store against a dramatically reduced number of existing metal models at then-current MSRP?

At this time, there is plenty of reason to believe there might be problems, both for manufacturing / production Kickstarters in general, and DP9's total inexperience with the particulars of styrene model design and production.

This YMMV / CYA stuff does not engender confidence. What you are literally saying is that you can unilaterally change the terms of delivery at a whim, and that you refuse to refund for product not delivered. Either DP9 is committed to producing all of the things that they have promised (17+ types of models in hard styrene plastic), or they are not. If everything is up in the air, because you don't know what you're doing, then none of these stretch goals matter.

So which is it? What is DP9's actual commitment? What is DP9 really promising?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 DP9Dave wrote:
PS Gentlemen the conversation you are having about other kickstarters is very off topic and in danger of starting a flame war. Please keep the conversation on the topic of news about the Kickstarter as that is this thread's purpose.

Cheers!
Dav

Dave, the comparison with Robotech is very relevant.

Compared to Robotech, DP9 has 1/10 the revenue to do 80-90% of the same design work.

Ninja Division / Palladium ended up running over a year late on initial delivery of their project, despite vastly greater financial resources to work with.

With the 4-fold increase in scope, from 4 models to 16, what makes you think you can deliver on time in November, 2015? What are you going to do better, faster (12 months vs 18 months), and cheaper (1/10 the budget) compared to those guys, so that this project doesn't drag far into 2016? Or even 2017?

Does the quoted price still hold for a short production run of 1000-2000 units to support <1000 backers vs a standard production run of 5000+ units?

Dave, how come you refuse to answer this question?

I see that you very deliberately skipped over the question of scope expansion against a fixed timeframe.

Are you just assuming that your "Get out of jail, free" clause covers it?

From what I can tell about the Robotech kickstarter, since I am not a backer, is that they realized going into production that the planned level of articulation would take up a lot more space for parts in their molds than they had planned. Then it sounds like they got stuck in morass of dealing with overseas production issues. It's been bewildering trying to figure out what exactly went wrong there but a lot of money like that means that they probably had to scale up production to a much higher level than they thought they needed to at first. It sounds like they are in the process of shipping out to backers and are being given the run around by customs. It's clear that they've had a lot of unexpected problems but that happens, people get their stuff, and life goes on. 85000 comment is however a lot of comments...


How can we produce as much as we are planning in the time frame, in the quantity required?
By listening to the guidance of our plastics producer, who we have a very close relationship to now. We know we're inexperienced, so we're getting the guys with the best expertise we can on our side. They think that November 2015 for delivery of the rewards is ludicrous, they expect to be up and running much faster than that. They're used to much faster turnaround speeds than that and they are appalled at the length of time other kickstarters have taken to ship.

We used the numbers we were given by the best experts we could find and then added a healthy safety margin to be sure. Plus we started designing our 3D models only after finding the tolerances and discussing how many parts to make them in and how they would cast with the most detail. Most companies that I can see start with a raw digital model, then go to manufacturing and get laughed at for what they are trying to do and have a long process of redesign and review. We've sidestepped all that with planning, something we're getting better with all the time.


The assurance you have that we can produce?
You have the best assurance possible. You have the assurance that we still want to be in business after the rewards ship.

We know that it's no good creating these expectations and then not meeting them. But we also know that there's going to be problems. Problems happen. And we'll solve them. And what we learn from the process will make future crowd funding projects we do run smoother and better than this one. None of these models are something that we can't produce in metal or resin and even if disaster hits and the molds are destroyed by Godzilla there will be insurance and we'll be able to fix the problem by re-making the molds or in a pinch we can produce in metal or resin as a last resort. Unlike some companies who have no backup production we know that come hell or high water these models are getting made if we have to do them ourselves, again, as a last resort.

Cheers!
Dave

If the plastics company tanks, say, then the backers get all their minis from the KS in metal or resin without any added cost? Hell, that sounds fair to me. I mean, I'd prefer even bad plastic to metal, but still, that's a decent disaster scenario plan.

Dave, thank you for the reply. I appreciate you taking the time to give a complete response, and I appreciate the corporate commitment. That is very helpful.

Final 36 hours are almost here, and thanks to the new Backers we have broken $120,000 and have unlocked the Earth's stealth Frame, the BF2-25.

The Core Starter Set has now added 1 of these apiece, along with the recon drones.

 Firebreak wrote:
If the plastics company tanks, say, then the backers get all their minis from the KS in metal or resin without any added cost? Hell, that sounds fair to me. I mean, I'd prefer even bad plastic to metal, but still, that's a decent disaster scenario plan.

It would suck Armadillo Beast to have to do that but yeah, in case of Act of God, we have a backup plan that we'd prefer never to use.
It's always better to have a plan and not need it, than it is to need a plan and not have it.

I always wonder how much earthquake insurance companies operating in China have to keep...

Cheers!
Dave