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They were also using one of the models which was a better example of Finecast quality at the time.

 Grey Templar wrote:
They were also using one of the models which was a better example of Finecast quality at the time.

The dreaded Bubble Vent monster?

Hey, can someone send me the link to the endorsement video MWG did for BTP? I can't seem to get mine to work.

I'm getting a message saying that the video that MWG did for BTP was removed by the user, anyone else getting the same?

PhantomViper wrote:
I'm getting a message saying that the video that MWG did for BTP was removed by the user, anyone else getting the same?

Aye, it seems the fethers removed them because I went to get the link for techsol....

Wonder what that could mean.

Perhaps Shawn from BTP was upset about the quality of the endorsement and we are about to see a thread from him detailing his complaints with what MWG delivered compared to what he contracted with them to do.

It was probably removed due to the amount of commentary going on that was a mixture of calling Matt out as a shill, commending BTP for having only one army ever fall through the cracks after 8000 jobs (yeah right) and the general lack luster endorsement. I mean honestly, the "display" slide show at the end would be one of the stronger proofs to me to not use BTP. The quality was pretty much as bad as could be. (I also suspect there is a bit of back and forth happening between Matt and BTP, as mentioned above, Matt seemed to give the endorsement about as little effort as possible. I don't know what sort of deal he and Shawn have, but it did definitely feel like Matt didn't give the video his A game.)

 tenebre wrote:

 heartserenade wrote:
The new touched-up model is incredibly good, don't get me wrong. It's just that the base still bugs me. From what I have seen so far the base is the most lackluster in all of BTP's painted models. Then again, if they're doing it for free it might be too much of a hassle?

They charged me an extra $2 per base for "lava" that was not part of the model price. at least with the new paint job my eyes are not drawn to the base

Who is the "they" in this instance - BTP charged an extra $2 per base for the lava effect seen on the model on the right? Or the mystery studio would have charged that much extra to fix the lava?

I think the repaint looks good as-is, but going back and drybrushing a little orange or yellow onto the lava might make it pop more, and is something you could do later on if you decided it was worth the effort.

 techsoldaten wrote:
Wonder what that could mean.

Perhaps Shawn from BTP was upset about the quality of the endorsement and we are about to see a thread from him detailing his complaints with what MWG delivered compared to what he contracted with them to do.

I see what you did there

 Gullinbursti wrote:
It was probably removed due to the amount of commentary going on that was a mixture of calling Matt out as a shill, commending BTP for having only one army ever fall through the cracks after 8000 jobs (yeah right) and the general lack luster endorsement. I mean honestly, the "display" slide show at the end would be one of the stronger proofs to me to not use BTP. The quality was pretty much as bad as could be. (I also suspect there is a bit of back and forth happening between Matt and BTP, as mentioned above, Matt seemed to give the endorsement about as little effort as possible. I don't know what sort of deal he and Shawn have, but it did definitely feel like Matt didn't give the video his A game.)

MWG has done other endorsements, they are about the same quality. I don't think Matt has gotten the paid celebrity advertisement thing down yet.

Compare the BTP video with the one for Siege Studios and you be the judge.

http://www.miniwargaming.com/content/siege-studios-painting-commission-studio-showcase-awesome-pics-within

This other video is from yesterday. Shawn is selling off his own Eldar army. Of course, it's all Wave Serpents, Wraithknights and Wraithguard.

The original painters took the time to point out in the comments he said this is the one he said he would never sell off.




Starting to see a picture here.

What... lawyers are expensive

 techsoldaten wrote:

 Gullinbursti wrote:
It was probably removed due to the amount of commentary going on that was a mixture of calling Matt out as a shill, commending BTP for having only one army ever fall through the cracks after 8000 jobs (yeah right) and the general lack luster endorsement. I mean honestly, the "display" slide show at the end would be one of the stronger proofs to me to not use BTP. The quality was pretty much as bad as could be. (I also suspect there is a bit of back and forth happening between Matt and BTP, as mentioned above, Matt seemed to give the endorsement about as little effort as possible. I don't know what sort of deal he and Shawn have, but it did definitely feel like Matt didn't give the video his A game.)

MWG has done other endorsements, they are about the same quality. I don't think Matt has gotten the paid celebrity advertisement thing down yet.

Compare the BTP video with the one for Siege Studios and you be the judge.

http://www.miniwargaming.com/content/siege-studios-painting-commission-studio-showcase-awesome-pics-within

This other video is from yesterday. Shawn is selling off his own Eldar army. Of course, it's all Wave Serpents, Wraithknights and Wraithguard.

The original painters took the time to point out in the comments he said this is the one he said he would never sell off.





Starting to see a picture here.

Are those jet bikers even finished? Seems like they forgot to paint the guns on them

 RiTides wrote:

 tenebre wrote:

 heartserenade wrote:
The new touched-up model is incredibly good, don't get me wrong. It's just that the base still bugs me. From what I have seen so far the base is the most lackluster in all of BTP's painted models. Then again, if they're doing it for free it might be too much of a hassle?

They charged me an extra $2 per base for "lava" that was not part of the model price. at least with the new paint job my eyes are not drawn to the base

Who is the "they" in this instance - BTP charged an extra $2 per base for the lava effect seen on the model on the right? Or the mystery studio would have charged that much extra to fix the lava?

I think the repaint looks good as-is, but going back and drybrushing a little orange or yellow onto the lava might make it pop more, and is something you could do later on if you decided it was worth the effort.

BTP charged for the base. the new studio is doing all touch up work 100% free. I only mentioned that because someone asked about the basing charge.

 Ustrello wrote:

Are those jet bikers even finished? Seems like they forgot to paint the guns on them

I am sure they are a level 7 and are supposed to look that way.

We're getting some moments of introspection from Shawn in the latest BTP video. They are insightful




A few things to note:

- At 1:19, Shawn and his man Chad are going through the list of projects to make sure everything's 'on the rails.' You can tell Chad has everything under control because he points at his eyes. He must have come on after tenebre's army shipped.

- At 1:32, Shawn has an exchange with Shannon. You can tell right away she enjoys being the subject of his videos.

- At 2:08, Shawn reminds you about that half off special on those things that the xenomorph drop pods... er, uh, seed pods. It's about 400% thicker than GW's new Tyranid thing but comes with half the sides.

- At 3:00, Shawn goes on about how he appreciates all the fans and clients, before saying it's great to come to his studio every day and he loves that this is his profession. Then he talks about how he's always seeking deeper meaning, and pauses to share a view of the fresh fallen snow through a dirty screen. Moving on, Shawn goes on to remind everyone how Blue Table Painting is improving vastly, constantly revamping and looking to give that better experience to their customers.

I trust things are improving now with Chad keeping all those things on the rails and Shannon sitting in silent judgement.

@tenebre, remember, this is the man walking around with your money. He does not strike me as the type who is good at hanging onto it. You might want to follow the advice on the following site:

http://www.canb.uscourts.gov/faqs#FAQnational

 techsoldaten wrote:

 Ustrello wrote:

Are those jet bikers even finished? Seems like they forgot to paint the guns on them

I am sure they are a level 7 and are supposed to look that way.

We're getting some moments of introspection from Shawn in the latest BTP video. They are insightful




A few things to note:

- At 1:19, Shawn and his man Chad are going through the list of projects to make sure everything's 'on the rails.' You can tell Chad has everything under control because he points at his eyes. He must have come on after tenebre's army shipped.

- At 1:32, Shawn has an exchange with Shannon. You can tell right away she enjoys being the subject of his videos.

- At 2:08, Shawn reminds you about that half off special on those things that the xenomorph drop pods... er, uh, seed pods. It's about 400% thicker than GW's new Tyranid thing but comes with half the sides.

- At 3:00, Shawn goes on about how he appreciates all the fans and clients, before saying it's great to come to his studio every day and he loves that this is his profession. Then he talks about how he's always seeking deeper meaning, and pauses to share a view of the fresh fallen snow through a dirty screen. Moving on, Shawn goes on to remind everyone how Blue Table Painting is improving vastly, constantly revamping and looking to give that better experience to their customers.

I trust things are improving now with Chad keeping all those things on the rails and Shannon sitting in silent judgement.

@tenebre, remember, this is the man walking around with your money. He does not strike me as the type who is good at hanging onto it. You might want to follow the advice on the following site:

http://www.canb.uscourts.gov/faqs#FAQnational

Its like watching joke propaganda movies, except he is totally serious. I'm doing my part springs to mind.

 techsoldaten wrote:


@tenebre, remember, this is the man walking around with your money. He does not strike me as the type who is good at hanging onto it. You might want to follow the advice on the following site:

http://www.canb.uscourts.gov/faqs#FAQnational

Shawn's going bankrupt?

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:


Shawn's going bankrupt?

I never said that, and have no reason to assume so.

But the man in that video has a lot on his mind and it ain't all good. If he was into me for 5-figures, I would be watching every financial indicator I can.

xxvaderxx wrote:

 heartserenade wrote:
Personally, it reminded me of a video miniwargaming did a while back to advertise the values of Finecast:

What is the tittle of that video? "First Impressions", if i remember correctly, they latter did a video about how they would not sell Fine cast any more because of the high failure rate.

As a new product first impressions, i would say that video is adequate, the detail in Fine Cast is and has always been awesome, like any other well done product resin, the problem has always been failure rate(miscasts), which is not immediately apparent as to be mentioned on a first impressions video.

i beg to differ...
the detail on Finecast is not awesome, it is missing...
i have my first three Finecast minis here, and they are only two months old...
while i was impressed with the look of the minis on the sprue, and thought i would have to eat all of my negative words about the material over the last few years, upon closer inspection, the casts are missing details that a metal model would never lose...
hoses, corners, and fingers seem to be especially bad...
Sergeant Chronus suffers badly from this...
the bendy staff on Chief Librarian Tigurius is also a concern...
the bubbles are not as bad as previous examples i had seen, but are still a problem...

not to drag this further off-topic, but i will be doing a review of these models before, and during, the painting...
these guys in no way compare to any of the "well done product resin" that i have from Studio McVey, Rackham, Ilyad, and a bunch of other companies that actually did do well with their products, and for the same price, or less, than Finecast...

cheers
jah

 techsoldaten wrote:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:


Shawn's going bankrupt?

I never said that, and have no reason to assume so.

But the man in that video has a lot on his mind and it ain't all good. If he was into me for 5-figures, I would be watching every financial indicator I can.

Well you certainly implied it by posting a link to a government resource on how to find out if someone is bankrupt.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:


Shawn's going bankrupt?

I never said that, and have no reason to assume so.

But the man in that video has a lot on his mind and it ain't all good. If he was into me for 5-figures, I would be watching every financial indicator I can.

Well you certainly implied it by posting a link to a government resource on how to find out if someone is bankrupt.

I think he was saying to check to make sure that BTP wasn't on the list of businesses that are filing for bankruptcy

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

Well you certainly implied it by posting a link to a government resource on how to find out if someone is bankrupt.

Yeah, wow.

Removing this to keep personal / family issues out of the thread. Everyone should know what PACER is and use it.

 techsoldaten wrote:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

What do you think is on his mind?

Ways to wriggle out of any responsibility?

While some discussion of the topic is of course fine, let's not speculate about bankruptcy / spend too long discussing that without evidence indicating such. Thanks.

 techsoldaten wrote:

Finances and family issues are what guys his age tend to worry about the most, and they are typically tied together. Pacer is just this wonderful resource for keeping tabs and everyone should know about it. I don't have a resource for tracking nationwide divorce filings, but there's probably one out there if anyone wants to share.

What do you think is on his mind?

I really don't think we need to be looking into someone's marital status, please and thank you. We know he's a husband and father, we do not need to be willing on something unpleasant in some ghoulish fashion, thanks.

I also don't wish Blue Table, as an employer or business, bankruptcy. I just wish he'd do some damage control, process improvement and be more willing to fall on his sword in regard the lack of quality with this case.

I think we're really better served taking the moral highground here and concentrating on issues of business practice and quality, not veering into any sort of muckraking.

That's well said, MGS! I think the main thing here is that tenebre gets restitution. The problem, of course, is that that restitution is not coming from BTP, but from an outside source, and that he's having to go through the courts to get any traction with BTP itself.

I think they would be much better off making a video directly addressing this failed commission, giving a partial refund, and basically admitting their wrongdoing and how they plan to improve going forward. They haven't done that, so they can't get a full pass, but your point is well taken that I don't think it's good to wish for them to fail... I do wish for them to "see the light", though, and reform their process which is obviously extremely lacking (as evidenced by this thread, and other testimonials that have come up regularly, but just not gotten this much attention).

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:

Finances and family issues are what guys his age tend to worry about the most, and they are typically tied together. Pacer is just this wonderful resource for keeping tabs and everyone should know about it. I don't have a resource for tracking nationwide divorce filings, but there's probably one out there if anyone wants to share.

What do you think is on his mind?

I really don't think we need to be looking into someone's marital status, please and thank you. We know he's a husband and father, we do not need to be willing on something unpleasant in some ghoulish fashion, thanks.

I also don't wish Blue Table, as an employer or business, bankruptcy. I just wish he'd do some damage control, process improvement and be more willing to fall on his sword in regard the lack of quality with this case.

I think we're really better served taking the moral highground here and concentrating on issues of business practice and quality, not veering into any sort of muckraking.

Areally you telling me I bought all these pitchforks for nothing?

 RiTides wrote:
That's well said, MGS! I think the main thing here is that tenebre gets restitution. The problem, of course, is that that restitution is not coming from BTP, but from an outside source, and that he's having to go through the courts to get any traction with BTP itself.

I think they would be much better off making a video directly addressing this failed commission, giving a partial refund, and basically admitting their wrongdoing and how they plan to improve going forward. They haven't done that, so they can't get a full pass, but your point is well taken that I don't think it's good to wish for them to fail... I do wish for them to "see the light", though, and reform their process which is obviously extremely lacking (as evidenced by this thread, and other testimonials that have come up regularly, but just not gotten this much attention).

It all reeks of a company taking on too much, to me. This is always going to be a cottage industry but Shawn seems to see himself as the Henry Ford of the painted army revolution. I've watched the Blue Table videos for a long long time, back to their start out and he's always been a larger than life character (and one I was fond of for a long time) but after a while seemed to start introducing some quite 'out there' ideas about business and politics and personal development, none of which really have much place in a 'we paint toy soldiers' online company. There's a lot of 'If I build it, they will come' and other lofty notions about clothing lines and becoming the next Adepticon with his valhalla event and lots and lots of other schemes and odd business mantras. Whilst all of this higher vision scheming is going on, he's seemingly pushed the painting of armies (the thing that pays the rent) into a conveyor belt of 'churn it out asap and grab the cash' presumably to engage in pursuing these grand ideas...

He needs to get his house in order, remember who's paying both him and his employees salaries, eat a metric ton of GENUINE humble pie (not the passive aggressive 'I'm sorry you're not happy with the product', but actual 'wow, y'know, we let the ball slip and now we need to actually fix this') , not engage in denial and defense and do some of that soul searching he's constantly alluding to about the actual product, what his company produces, what other companies are producing and if he can really meet the claims he makes. The defense of 'But I'm a dreamer/visionary/rulebreaker/entrepreneur' won't matter for gak if you're a) using your immediate profit to dabble in these potentially disastrous ventures and b) forgetting what puts the food on the table and more importantly why you loved it in the first place before you decided you were bigger than it and want to make your legend. You can make your legend on a buffered, safe amount of saved profit when you know your business is running both efficiently and that quality is assured.

Right now, with what I'm seeing, the quality is far from assured and worse still, we have a business owner in complete denial over it. Blue Table, this is your wake up call, the OP will simply not use your services again, but how you've behaved has been viewed by hundreds if not thousands on this forum alone, coupled with it's spill over onto other forums, MWG's youtube and then the spread of word of mouth.

This should have you panicking, Blue Table, it should have you reacting, not with defensive horse gak like you pulled with MWG's 'endorsement video', but with actual, solid quality control changes and willingness to improve. Re-examine your current standards, compare them to how you used to put out armies and how your competitors put out armies.

Admitting you have a problem is the first step to overcoming it.

What do you mean by "OUT there business ideas" MGS

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:
It all reeks of a company taking on too much, to me. This is always going to be a cottage industry but Shawn seems to see himself as the Henry Ford of the painted army revolution. I've watched the Blue Table videos for a long long time, back to their start out and he's always been a larger than life character (and one I was fond of for a long time) but after a while seemed to start introducing some quite 'out there' ideas about business and politics and personal development, none of which really have much place in a 'we paint toy soldiers' online company. There's a lot of 'If I build it, they will come' and other lofty notions about clothing lines and becoming the next Adepticon with his valhalla event and lots and lots of other schemes and odd business mantras. Whilst all of this higher vision scheming is going on, he's seemingly pushed the painting of armies (the thing that pays the rent) into a conveyor belt of 'churn it out asap and grab the cash' presumably to engage in pursuing these grand ideas...

Can't really fault your post. It seems there's a real mantra these days, of moving on to grander things, from your humble origins. But those humble origins, if they stay as the core of your business, are far too important to neglect. I don't work in anything to do with wargaming. But we have customers, and the reality is that you need to manage your customers' expectations. If they don't expect to see unpainted areas, and details left off, then you have a problem.

I don't think anybody who has read the descriptions for level 4 and level 6 can think that this army is at that quality, as it stands now. Further, they didn't follow directions from the customer. From the videos, it sounds like he'd have been happy to pay more, if that would truly rectify the situation. Or wait longer.

Objectively, if tenebre's remarks are all factual (and they seem to be, as they aren't being refuted) about his efforts to get this resolved to his satisfaction, BTP have simple failed in their efforts.

This army itself, is of immense value (OOP minis, rare minis, custom sculpts). I can very well understand why he wouldn't send it back to BTP, when their obvious immediate concern is in silencing his criticism, rather than satisfying him in the first place.

If they requests/levels were undercosted, then that sucks, but as a business you just pick up the tab.
If you under-quote, then you absorb the difference, if you can do it while staying solvent, or talk to the customer and negotiate. You don't half-ass it then try and stifle their criticism.

People are reacting negatively, because of the customer service experience they are seeing play out. If tenebre didn't have a youtube channel, and post a video that picked up traction all over the net war-games community, what are his chances, do you think, of getting this resolved successfully?

That's a scary thought. There seem to be a number of people out there, defending BTP, because they had great experiences. That's fine, I understand why you'd be mystified, but do you really think tenebre's problem is one of his own making? It's hard to understand where that view comes from.

Here's my simple take:

If you say you'll do something, as a business, then you better follow through.
If you change what you are going to do, and you don't talk to the customer, then you better be prepared to remediate the result.
If the customer asks you to do certain things, then you need to comply, and as promptly as possible. When they ask for more photos, you should take them. This is really their only chance to inspect the works before you ship them back.

It appears:
BTP failed to follow the agreed to scheme.
They took liberties with the commission.
They failed to stick to the timelines they suggested were likely, from the outset. (not a big deal, but can be frustrating as the customer. Even if you don't care if the job takes two months, if you are promised two weeks, it's going to be more frustrating if they fail to deliver.)
Tenebre wasn't given access to communicate with the artist doing the actual work.
They failed to acknowledge specific requests, said they'd make all the changes requested, then post up the result which indicated they hadn't done so. There were several iterations of this.
It seems like they then communicated that the job was done, that tenebre needed to pay up, or the army would be sold off. Let me remind you, that at this point the MINIMUM risk for tenebre was around $10,000. Given the comissioned sculpts, the conversions he'd done himself, the OOP models, etc it's probably higher than that lower bounding esimate. At this point, he has no choice but to pay up, they have him over a barrel. If you believe BTP, then this was a mix-up. I personally find that hard to credit, as this one of the biggest commission jobs I've seen on BTP. They certainly aren't dime a dozen.
BTP then made several offers, a number of which have been withdrawn after being accepted, or being discussed.
They've not talked specifically on this job. They've not admitted any wrongdoing.
Everything so far from BTP has been carefully worded to imply that they are going out of their way to be reasonable, with an unreasonable customer.

The funny thing is, everything above could have been changed. If a few of the things above hadn't happened, in the way they did, then this might not have blown up. If BTP, had made the fixes tenebre asked for, he might have accepted the army, even though it wasn't to his specification.

Now, this entire episode could have been a huge negative for people running commission painting businesses. But it looks like a great opportunity.
In any job, clear communication, and management of expectations are key. If you can't do something the customer accepts, let them know. Many customers are happy with an alternative suggestion.
If you talk them through the process, and get them involved as early as possible in critiquing your work, then you'll have spent less time working on a scheme that doesn't satisfy the customer.
Anyone working in commission painting, or interested in getting commission painting done should listen to the Independent Character's podcast episode on commission painting. It covers a LOT of experiences/services/etc.

Lastly, it's great to see someone picking up the tab to fix this army. We don't know who it is, or what the agreement is. But it is interesting that they've (presumably) opted to keep it quiet. Maybe they are trying to reach out to BTP on behalf of tenebre to get it all sorted before this ends up in court. Whatever the agreement, if tenebre has the assurance of getting his army fixed, at no additional cost, that's just brilliant. Kudos to this mystery painting studio! The in progress stuff looks great, and certainly much more "on theme" with tenebre's requests (ie the bloodyness). And come on, details picked out, that shouldn't be an extra on a model as big as that!

Tenebre: Will we eventually find out who helped you with getting your army fixed up? They don't want to remain completely anonymous, do they?

Well said, MGS. I feel a very similar way and I'm glad someone took the time to say it better than I might have. I sincerely hope Shaun reads this and thinks on it. There are a lot of us out there that aren't baying for blood but are also really disgusted with the way things are. I hope he's capable of the changes necessary so he can be truly successful one day.