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 master of ordinance wrote:

I think that SM players hine because most of them are stuck in that timmy attitude and because GW makes Marines out to be unbeatable. So when you kill them or have something that is better than them.... Whooooo boy dont you know about just how OP FRFSRF is and as for that AV 14/13/10 tank with a Battlecannon.....
Just woe betide you if you should do anything other than scoop your vast piles of dead Infantry and wrecked vehicles off the table with anything other than a smile on your face or even dare to complain about just how broken that unit/formation is though or dare to not have fun removing your dead Imperial Guard. Then you are subject to the lecture of how this is the way that things go and you should expect it or told you are a whiner or a scrub.

I think another aspect that many people seem not to get is that defeating an opponent much weaker than you isn't really heroic. This is one of the reasons 5th edition GKs were so bloody idiotic - because they were so OP as to make demons the underdogs. But Emperor forbid SM players be required to use anything other than brute force to win battles.

So here is my Codex. Everything that is added, changed, or make up by me is in red.

Forward: This codex is intended for use in narrative campaigns and is most likely not completely balanced in traditional games of Warhammer 40k. The reason I have written this codex is to allow me to better represent the strategical and tactical doctrines of my guard regiment. The primary strategical and tactical doctrine represented by this Codex is the idea of Long Range Penetration, which is best exemplified by The Chindits, The Long Range Desert Group, Merrill’s Marauders and the 75TH Ranger Battalion. Additional strategical doctrines such as Long Range Reconnaissance Patrols, Air Calvary, and Airborne are also represented.

Here is the google Doc

 vipoid wrote:

I think another aspect that many people seem not to get is that defeating an opponent much weaker than you isn't really heroic. This is one of the reasons 5th edition GKs were so bloody idiotic - because they were so OP as to make demons the underdogs. But Emperor forbid SM players be required to use anything other than brute force to win battles.

Exalted

To think that they may have to engage more than two braincells though.... Scary

 master of ordinance wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

I think another aspect that many people seem not to get is that defeating an opponent much weaker than you isn't really heroic. This is one of the reasons 5th edition GKs were so bloody idiotic - because they were so OP as to make demons the underdogs. But Emperor forbid SM players be required to use anything other than brute force to win battles.

Exalted

To think that they may have to engage more than two braincells though.... Scary

Heroes are not measured by what they have accomplished, but rather by what they have overcome. Walls prove no obstacle to a giant, but a man must climb or fight his way to the other side. If both succeed in crossing the wall, then both are equally accomplished. While having both achieved the same goal, it is the man that is more admirable.

Well put.

Its kind of funny how one of the most expensive armies to collect and build up is somehow the worst...

If anyone thinks that BA/SW are winning with brute force, I have some bad news for you. It's not BS4 or 3+ armor making vanilla marines good.

Martel732 wrote:
If anyone thinks that BA/SW are winning with brute force, I have some bad news for you. It's not BS4 or 3+ armor making vanilla marines good.

Not really what people are complaining about, it's more this attitude that some SM players have. After reading GW fluff, where the SM are protrayed as nigh-unkillable murder machines that a normal human should have no chance of beating. So when normal humans start killing their models in the TT they get upset, because in the fluff it would take several hundred guardsmen to kill a single Space Marine. Well, most people don't have several hundred models, or in my case, litle round paper circles.

Martel732 wrote:If anyone thinks that BA/SW are winning with brute force, I have some bad news for you. It's not BS4 or 3+ armor making vanilla marines good.

No, but it helps. A lot. If you do not think so then try playing with BS 3 and armour that is ignored by almost every weapon in the game. What does it take to crack through a Marines plate? AP's 1, 2 and 3. In other words dedicated AT and specialist weapons. What does it take to punch through flak armour? AP 5 and better. In other words nearly every damn weapon out there.

saithor wrote:
Not really what people are complaining about, it's more this attitude that some SM players have. After reading GW fluff, where the SM are protrayed as nigh-unkillable murder machines that a normal human should have no chance of beating. So when normal humans start killing their models in the TT they get upset, because in the fluff it would take several hundred guardsmen to kill a single Space Marine. Well, most people don't have several hundred models, or in my case, litle round paper circles.

Exactly. Whilst I know that it does not apply to all Marine players you do tend to find that the majority of them are unable to conceive that they might not just automatically win against an Imperial Guard player and they might have to think about things like 'tactics' and 'strategy'. They get pissy and throw a mini hissy fit every time 30 Guardsmen manage to down A space marine. They complain and call Imperial Guard units "OP" when a lucky shot demolishes half a squad or they realise that a Leman Russ has more armour than a Predator.
They think they should just instantly win. They are wrong. But they can not understand this.

Hey, we have this great thread that has miraculously survived for 40 pages.

Let's not throw it all to gak about comparisons to marines or your experiences with the attitudes of the players behind them.

That all said, I'd love to see arty batteries (the proper arty ones, not the SPG kind) in the codex. One unit entry with three options; Bassie, Medusa, Heavy Mortar...scratch that, four, Quad Mortar too. Then have another entry for all the SPG variants; Bassie, Medusa, Colossus, Griffon, Wyvern. And make enclosed compartment cheaper. Honestly, 15pts is way too much. No more than 10pts is much more reasonable if you're making entire batteries like that.

Yesssss, the Quad Mortar. I do wish that we could have that old gem at a reasonable price ....

We need the old artillery back too. And at prices that actually make sense too.

What was the Quad Mortar?

The current prices aren't terrible. Wyvern needs to go up in price, especially if the Griffon ever wants to see the table again (under the far fetched, hypothetical it even comes back [it won't]), but other than that, Bassie could use a cut of ~10pts. Its not bad, but its not great either and has walked the line of mediocrity for some time now.

Medusa was also reasonable, put could use a 5-10pts cut too, plus I'd love if the option for Breacher shells allowed you to pick every turn what shell you fired.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 vipoid wrote:
What was the Quad Mortar?

Off the top of my head...

Small blast (4 of them), S5 AP5, Pinning, -1 ld check. Its arty, so T7 and W2 plus crew for sponging. Something around 50pts I believe. In the order of 48-60" range.

Good unit. Basically the spiritual father to the Wyvern.

 vipoid wrote:
What was the Quad Mortar?

4 small blasts of beauty with a -1 check to the enemies LD on the pinning check.

As far as I can see we are going to get regimental doctrines what do you guys think they will be?

My personal expectations:
Cadians - reroll 1s to hit with lasguns (honestly their so generic that I don't know what to give them)
Catachans - stealth (army wide)
Steel Legion - all transports are assault craft and hatred (orks)
Valhallan Ice warriors - 6+ send in next wave (OP but I soooooooo want that back)
Tallarns - move through cover

I'd be astonished if we got anything resembling regimental doctrines. That sort of thing is reserved for Space Marines.

In any case, what sort of bonus do you think the Vostroyan Firstborn would get?

 vipoid wrote:
I'd be astonished if we got anything resembling regimental doctrines. That sort of thing is reserved for Space Marines.

In any case, what sort of bonus do you think the Vostroyan Firstborn would get?

Realistically? They get immunity to all effects associated with low temperatures, like how the Chimera can cross water features.

Logically: Str 4 Lasguns, and half-price Carapace armour.

I'm at the point where I'm going to start asking my opponents if its ok to run some of the apocalypse formations for my IG.

I might have to start collecting that xenos army soon..

 Resin Glazed Guardsman wrote:
I'm at the point where I'm going to start asking my opponents if its ok to run some of the apocalypse formations for my IG.

This.
All AM/IG apocalypse formations should be put into the codex with a bit of tweaking of the formations that require large numbers of models

The apocalypse formations seem to be a good foundation for some decuiron style love for us.

Mechanised company with a couple of free special rules (can move a bit faster plus stubborn and furious charge) near objectives seems kinda UP to me if anything - but I'll take what I can get.

I love the idea of having endless ranks on platoons and being able to muster forces back after every turn. It would actually make platoons worth taking. That and a slight points drop per guardsman and I'll be running guardsman tides.

 master of ordinance wrote:

Martel732 wrote:If anyone thinks that BA/SW are winning with brute force, I have some bad news for you. It's not BS4 or 3+ armor making vanilla marines good.

No, but it helps. A lot. If you do not think so then try playing with BS 3 and armour that is ignored by almost every weapon in the game. What does it take to crack through a Marines plate? AP's 1, 2 and 3. In other words dedicated AT and specialist weapons. What does it take to punch through flak armour? AP 5 and better. In other words nearly every damn weapon out there.

saithor wrote:
Not really what people are complaining about, it's more this attitude that some SM players have. After reading GW fluff, where the SM are protrayed as nigh-unkillable murder machines that a normal human should have no chance of beating. So when normal humans start killing their models in the TT they get upset, because in the fluff it would take several hundred guardsmen to kill a single Space Marine. Well, most people don't have several hundred models, or in my case, litle round paper circles.

Exactly. Whilst I know that it does not apply to all Marine players you do tend to find that the majority of them are unable to conceive that they might not just automatically win against an Imperial Guard player and they might have to think about things like 'tactics' and 'strategy'. They get pissy and throw a mini hissy fit every time 30 Guardsmen manage to down A space marine. They complain and call Imperial Guard units "OP" when a lucky shot demolishes half a squad or they realise that a Leman Russ has more armour than a Predator.
They think they should just instantly win. They are wrong. But they can not understand this.

Remember the days when Space Marine chapters were 'rare' and the the Imperial Gurad were the bastons of the human race. Marines were only called on for the big problems like Abbadon or Purging a Hive world. Sigh, the memories. Now chapters are a dime a dozen and every space marine is as strong and tough as 50 men. only Space Marines can keep the aliens and traitors at bay.

" If you do not think so then try playing with BS 3 and armour that is ignored by almost every weapon in the game."

I have. It wasn't so bad. You just need a philosophy of not caring how many of your guys die. Although I'm almost there with BA anyway.

"What does it take to crack through a Marines plate?"

Or forcing 50+ saves a turn. That works too, and is more reliable because then cover doesn't matter.

Hey, Martel, this thread is about the Guard.

If you'd like to discuss marines and any of their actual or perceived failings, I'm sure there are plenty of other threads.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 The Deathless Host wrote:
As far as I can see we are going to get regimental doctrines what do you guys think they will be?

My personal expectations:
Cadians - reroll 1s to hit with lasguns (honestly their so generic that I don't know what to give them)
Catachans - stealth (army wide)
Steel Legion - all transports are assault craft and hatred (orks)
Valhallan Ice warriors - 6+ send in next wave (OP but I soooooooo want that back)
Tallarns - move through cover

I doubt we'd get doctrines, but if we did, I'd actually not go the route about having a doctrine for a specific popular/official regiment. Not all Valhallans, for example, are about piling more bodies on the enemy. Not all Tallarns are on foot (in fact, they are one of the most mechanized and talented tank regiments in the Imperium), and Cadians do a bit of everything.

If doctrines were to happen (if I was writing, for example), I'd pick a regiment style or composition. So, off the top of my head as examples, I'd have doctrines for; Light Infantry, Grenadiers, Mechanized Infantry, Armoured Company, Siege Regiment, and Airborne Regiment. I'm sure I'm missing some obvious ones, but that's neither here nor there. That way, if you want to play a Cadian army, you can run them as a Kasrkin force, or as a tank army, or as a siege company without being pigeon-holed into a singular aspect of your regiment's skill set.

Martel isnt actually too bad. Its just he fails to see things quite from our perspective.

Yeah, I get that forcing 50+ saves is effective but first you have to inflict 50+ wounds which requires 150+ hits and 300+ shots from the average Guardsman.

And at least they are getting saves, unlike the 100+ Guardsmen whom just died to amassed whatever fire.

All of which is not particularly relevant to the thread.

I'm sure there are other threads where you could discuss the fragility or lack thereof of marines of colour x.

My point is that the tanks need fixed, not the guardsmen. The guardsmen are fine at what they do. Particularly with access to "no cover" orders.

"And at least they are getting saves, unlike the 100+ Guardsmen whom just died to amassed whatever fire."

With cover, AP -, AP 6, AP 3, and AP 2 weapons, guardsmen are more efficient at soaking damage. So guardsmen are only actively poor compared to marines in the open against AP 5 and 4. Or AP 4/5 that ignores cover. Lots of players like me have ditched almost all the AP 4 out of their lists for various reasons. (It's basically useless against Eldar now, for example)

However, guard tanks are in the same cesspool that all other vehicles are right now. So I'm not sure a codex could address this issue.

add special rule: crazy hassan. at the beggining of the game roll a d6. on a 6 crazy hassasn sells you camels for cheap. count all your models as bike. in addition these arent just any cammels. these are fine quality camels and they give all models 2+ re rollable invuln saves all weapons sD sD hammer of wrath d6 hammer of wrath 7 wounds each

 master of ordinance wrote:
Yeah, I get that forcing 50+ saves is effective but first you have to inflict 50+ wounds which requires 150+ hits and 300+ shots from the average Guardsman.

Hence my notion that Vox allows Guardsmen to fire twice if they don't move...

Blacksails, it is impressive how far this thread has gotten, but I think at this point eveybody has said all that there can be said. We posted a lot of idas for fixes, people agreed and disagreed on them, we all admitted that it was unlikely that any of these would actually be implemented, we had a few posts on guys who thought that IG is OP, and after that my memory goes hazy. I might repost some of the ideas I had for rediscussion, I jsut need to find them first.