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 Resin Glazed Guardsman wrote:
I'm at the point where I'm going to start asking my opponents if its ok to run some of the apocalypse formations for my IG.

I might have to start collecting that xenos army soon..

I'm at the point of considering getting some Chaos Sorcerer models, and using them to attach a Librarius Conclave to my IG. Buff them all to gak.

I shall rain heretical fire!

Why would you have to ask to use IG Formations? GW made all of that legal, all the time.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
Why would you have to ask to use IG Formations? GW made all of that legal, all the time.

They're talking about making the ones that are Acopalypse only usable in regular games.

I'm pretty sure that 7E does away with "Apocalypse only". Just play them. It's not like they'll turn IG into OP...

Can anyone come up with a good way of actually representing Long Range Penetration within the confines of 40k?
My force's aviation detachment, its command structure, its paint scheme and its name (The First Arkan Volunteer Group (1st AVG)) is inspired by the Flying Tigers. Its ground operations are inspired by Merrill's Marauders, the 75th Ranger Regiment during the battle for signal hill, the Chindits, the Long Range Desert Group, and Long Range Reconnaissance Patrols carried out during Vietnam.

I have Written a Codex

The function of Long Range Penetration groups is to raid and disrupt enemy operations, cut off or hamper supply chains, and leave enemy front lines more susceptible to blocking actions during offensive initiatives. Either you let the group continue to harry your supplies and attack you where you are tactically disadvantaged, or divert additional resources in order to find them and take them out. To get the tactical advantage over a long range penetration group you have to commit resources, time, and manpower to locate and exterminate them. A committal of the resources leave your front lines in a weaker position making you more susceptible to an enemy offensive. The primary advantage is that a group such as this can operate and maneuver in terrain that would be unsuitable, or disadvantageous to conventional forces. Most vehicles are not able to perform well at all within the environments that a LRP would operate. The problem is that I need concentrated firepower on the tactical level when strategically LRPGs are generally vastly outnumbered in every other logistical metric. I don't want to restrict my opponents on what they can take, but a LRPG chooses its engagements and it makes no sense to fight large, brutish, or otherwise unwieldy enemies in the confines of the tactical and strategical doctrines that a LRPG utilizes.

Run this with a Scion Air Cav formation and a few supporting flyers.

Catachan Ambush Patrol:

1 Infantry Platoon
1-3 Veteran squads
Infiltrate, Move Through Cover, Outflank. The formation has Shrouded until it moves in open ground, shoots, or assaults. Also, due to traps, enemies assaulting through cover must make dangerous terrain tests.

Catachan Ambush patrol is apocalypse only. Furthermore, traditional guard platoons require far too many men, who are at the individual level incapable of performing any results. Platoons border far too much on the horde side. Typically I will 4 veteran squads all with camo cloaks, but am going to be replacing 2 veteran squads for assault squads (see codex above). I have 7 sentinels that I use, along with vendetta air support. While I can supplement my weak ground forces via airsupport, the nature of 40k artillery and its necessary presence on the board forces me to abstain from using it (aside from master of ordinance).

These are all self imposed restrictions and I realize that such a play style only appeals to a small minority; I just wish I could use actual GW rules to represent my force.

 Blacksails wrote:
Hey, Martel, this thread is about the Guard.

If you'd like to discuss marines and any of their actual or perceived failings, I'm sure there are plenty of other threads.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 The Deathless Host wrote:
As far as I can see we are going to get regimental doctrines what do you guys think they will be?

My personal expectations:
Cadians - reroll 1s to hit with lasguns (honestly their so generic that I don't know what to give them)
Catachans - stealth (army wide)
Steel Legion - all transports are assault craft and hatred (orks)
Valhallan Ice warriors - 6+ send in next wave (OP but I soooooooo want that back)
Tallarns - move through cover

I doubt we'd get doctrines, but if we did, I'd actually not go the route about having a doctrine for a specific popular/official regiment. Not all Valhallans, for example, are about piling more bodies on the enemy. Not all Tallarns are on foot (in fact, they are one of the most mechanized and talented tank regiments in the Imperium), and Cadians do a bit of everything.

If doctrines were to happen (if I was writing, for example), I'd pick a regiment style or composition. So, off the top of my head as examples, I'd have doctrines for; Light Infantry, Grenadiers, Mechanized Infantry, Armoured Company, Siege Regiment, and Airborne Regiment. I'm sure I'm missing some obvious ones, but that's neither here nor there. That way, if you want to play a Cadian army, you can run them as a Kasrkin force, or as a tank army, or as a siege company without being pigeon-holed into a singular aspect of your regiment's skill set.

Oh yes I know that all regiments are unique but GW is more likely to make doctrines for each specific product line. Rather than more general regimental types.

Give all CC and PC free power fist, and the same for sergeants. Voila, you are slightly competative in this AP2 meta that is going on in 7th.

Free chimeras for a full infantry platoon (50 inf) wouldnt hurt either. The SM gets it, so why not AM?

Free power weapon, or W2 for commissar would also help. heck, look at what you get for a 25 point W1 model elsewhere.

HP 5 for LR would also help.

 triplegrim wrote:

Free chimeras for a full infantry platoon (50 inf) wouldnt hurt either. The SM gets it, so why not AM?

Because free units is terribad design, and the Marines have to take a whole damn SM company.

 Selym wrote:

 triplegrim wrote:

Free chimeras for a full infantry platoon (50 inf) wouldnt hurt either. The SM gets it, so why not AM?

Because free units is terribad design, and the Marines have to take a whole damn SM company.

So what? An entire platoon is just as many models as a SM company and far less efficient for the points cost.

 master of ordinance wrote:

 Selym wrote:

 triplegrim wrote:

Free chimeras for a full infantry platoon (50 inf) wouldnt hurt either. The SM gets it, so why not AM?

Because free units is terribad design, and the Marines have to take a whole damn SM company.

So what? An entire platoon is just as many models as a SM company and far less efficient for the points cost.

I like the IG, and would like them to actually be viable, but 10 IG and a Chimera for 50 points is a bit far.

 Selym wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

 Selym wrote:

 triplegrim wrote:

Free chimeras for a full infantry platoon (50 inf) wouldnt hurt either. The SM gets it, so why not AM?

Because free units is terribad design, and the Marines have to take a whole damn SM company.

So what? An entire platoon is just as many models as a SM company and far less efficient for the points cost.

I like the IG, and would like them to actually be viable, but 10 IG and a Chimera for 50 points is a bit far.

Except the Chimera should be 45 to 50 points anyway. and Chimeras are hardly the best in their line. Under the current rules any basic Infantry unit baring Imperial Guard that get on their flank can shoot them and wreck them with their basic small arms. BS 3 heavy weapons have terrible accuracy and the only ones likely to hit are the Heavy Flamers..... Which require you to get right up to the enemy to use.

I agree that free chimeras for infantry squads would probably be too far. But, I'll also say that free Razorbacks are a lot better than free Chimeras - as the former can actually take useful weapons. Being able to spam TL Lascannons, Lascannons and TL Plasmaguns, and TL Assault Cannons is infinitely more useful than being able to spam BS3 Heavy Bolters and BS3 Multilasers.

Although I think the bigger issue is that it wouldn't take many platoons before your deployment zone is gridlocked with chimeras.

 Sledgehammer wrote:
Can anyone come up with a good way of actually representing Long Range Penetration within the confines of 40k?
My force's aviation detachment, its command structure, its paint scheme and its name (The First Arkan Volunteer Group (1st AVG)) is inspired by the Flying Tigers. Its ground operations are inspired by Merrill's Marauders, the 75th Ranger Regiment during the battle for signal hill, the Chindits, the Long Range Desert Group, and Long Range Reconnaissance Patrols carried out during Vietnam.

I have Written a Codex

The primary idea of Long Range Penetration is that raiding action will disrupts enemy operations, supply lines, and leave enemy front lines more susceptible to blocking actions during an offensive. Either you let them continue harrying your supplies and attacking you where you are tactically disadvantaged, or divert additional resources in order to find them and take them out; which leaves your front lines in a weaker position. The primary advantage is that a group such as this can operate and maneuver in terrain that would be unsuitable, or disadvantageous to conventional forces. Most vehicles are not able to perform well at all within the environments that a LRP would operate. The problem is that I need concentrated firepower on the tactical level when strategically LRPs are generally vastly outnumbered in every other logistical metric. I don't want to restrict my opponents on what they can take, but a LRP chooses its engagements and it makes no sense to fight large, brutish, or otherwise unwieldy enemies in the confines of the tactical and strategical doctrines.

By the sounds of it you want a new deathworld codex, which by all accounts the catachan codex was seeing it could be used for any style of deathworld, not just jungle.

 Selym wrote:

 triplegrim wrote:

Free chimeras for a full infantry platoon (50 inf) wouldnt hurt either. The SM gets it, so why not AM?

I like the IG, and would like them to actually be viable, but 10 IG and a Chimera for 50 points is a bit far.

Really? 10 IG are only really worth maybe 40 pts, and the Chimera's HBs are worth 10 pts, at best.

That's why I advocate all weapon upgrades in a Company to be free.

Hmmm...

Well. It is a block of 55 bodies, plus additional.

A Chimera is worth around 45-50 points.

45*6 = 270 points.
50*6 = 300 points

A SM Battle Company can allow for up to around 500 points of free stuff.

PCS = 30 pts
IG Squad = 40 points
Chimera = 45 / 50 points

Cost of platoon without freebies = 500 / 530
With freebies = 230 points

You've about halved the cost of a mech platoon, and made a much worse variant of the freebies spam that the SM.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Current pricing:

Chimera = 65 points
65*6 = 390 points


PCS = 30 pts
IG Squad = 50 points
Chimera = 65 points

Cost of platoon without freebies = 670
With freebies = 280 points

Still pretty bad.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

Really? 10 IG are only really worth maybe 40 pts, and the Chimera's HBs are worth 10 pts, at best.

That's why I advocate all weapon upgrades in a Company to be free.

I think free weapon upgrades would be better than free chimeras.

 Baldeagle91 wrote:

 Sledgehammer wrote:
Can anyone come up with a good way of actually representing Long Range Penetration within the confines of 40k?
My force's aviation detachment, its command structure, its paint scheme and its name (The First Arkan Volunteer Group (1st AVG)) is inspired by the Flying Tigers. Its ground operations are inspired by Merrill's Marauders, the 75th Ranger Regiment during the battle for signal hill, the Chindits, the Long Range Desert Group, and Long Range Reconnaissance Patrols carried out during Vietnam.

I have Written a Codex

The primary idea of Long Range Penetration is that raiding action will disrupts enemy operations, supply lines, and leave enemy front lines more susceptible to blocking actions during an offensive. Either you let them continue harrying your supplies and attacking you where you are tactically disadvantaged, or divert additional resources in order to find them and take them out; which leaves your front lines in a weaker position. The primary advantage is that a group such as this can operate and maneuver in terrain that would be unsuitable, or disadvantageous to conventional forces. Most vehicles are not able to perform well at all within the environments that a LRP would operate. The problem is that I need concentrated firepower on the tactical level when strategically LRPs are generally vastly outnumbered in every other logistical metric. I don't want to restrict my opponents on what they can take, but a LRP chooses its engagements and it makes no sense to fight large, brutish, or otherwise unwieldy enemies in the confines of the tactical and strategical doctrines.

By the sounds of it you want a new deathworld codex, which by all accounts the catachan codex was seeing it could be used for any style of deathworld, not just jungle.

While their home world is not a deathworld, the overall terrain is very similar to catachan (except everything isn't trying to kill you). Imagine the Appalachian mountain range, deciduous forests, pine forests, Endor, and other temperate green zones with dense foilage. Plant, fungi, and other non-animal organisms (no not amoebae and bacteria) grow at a ridiculous rate due to the sun's unique radiation (or some other hand wave non-scientific bs) causing virtually the entire planet to be forest.

Due to the growth rate plants can be farmed very quickly. The only real limit on production is manpower. While the growth rate is a boon in agriculture, it is a burden elsewhere. Roads cannot be maintained because they are reclaimed by nature within a years end. Aircraft and walkers must be used as a means of transportation instead. With the entire planet outside of settlements, essentially being wilderness it gives outlaws and heretics places to hide. These dissidents and traitors generally grow illicit drug producing plants as a means of funding their operations. The local PDF is constantly seeking out contraband and those that produce it.

The munitorum does not require official regiments to be levied from the planet because Arkan can better serve the imperium through agricultural production. Seeking a way to serve the greater imperium at large, veterans of the PDF sought official leave from their duties. The governor himself signed for each individual granting them leave and the ability to form a volunteer group, that due to its unique structure can operate outside of the bureaucratic red tape of the munitorum and other political entities.

I have never seen the death world book but If it is anything like what you are saying, then I would certainly like another.

 vipoid wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

Really? 10 IG are only really worth maybe 40 pts, and the Chimera's HBs are worth 10 pts, at best.

That's why I advocate all weapon upgrades in a Company to be free.

I think free weapon upgrades would be better than free chimeras.

Of course it is. Nearly every IG unit takes weapon upgrades. Only Mech IG takes Chimeras. Weapon upgrades are both more flexible and more thematic for most players.

Up to three free Flammenwerfers/Plasmaguns/Meltaguns per 10 men?

I'll bite. Though, gotta bear in mind, that's 15-45 extra points per IG squad we're getting for free, at current costing. Though, admittedly, they're worth about half their current costs anyway, due to expendability and reduced BS.

Free powerfists for the their sergeants. 2 free special wepons for the squad, and 1 free heavy weapon.

Radio and medic optional. Would make them interesting to play.

Or even that each squads member had a role;

Sergeant, Medic, Radioman, 3 Spec weapons, 2 Heavy Weapons, Demolitions man (krak grenades?) and scout (shotgun, and pistol/ccw)

Would make it more complicated, but sure more fun.

That would make units be very schizo. You'd never get all that to work together in a normal game, where you'd have 30-200 men.

the IG needs flexability, they also need a strong back bone...they are the brunt of imperial forces, yet they got expensive crap units, no real gimmicks(the lame orders don't count). I'm not expecting space marine type units or things but gak they can't even gunline it without getting their colon expanded by bottom tier armys. I tried so many angles to try and squeeze wins, the blob, mobile mech..i think a price reduction with the addition of formations that actually make sense and represent the faction would be a huge increase. I like most other IG players(i'm assuming) liked the challenge of squeeshy troops backed by heavy armor, but hell even in the current state of the game a leman can get trashed in a heart beat.

 Sledgehammer wrote:
I have never seen the death world book but If it is anything like what you are saying, then I would certainly like another.

The Catachan Codex for all intensive purposes was a deathworld dex. You could replace the jungle with desert, ruins, forests, swamps etc. Then again even to use the normal jungle type the rules at the time was you had to ask your opponent if you were allowed to use the force.

At the end of the day everything got a 6+ armour save but a 1+ cover save in their specific types of cover. Moved through terrain easier, added some jungle fighting rules, made it harder for the enemy to see you, easier for you to see them. Booby traps which you brought like units, but deployed in a unique way.

Basically reduced the variety of your force, gave you the option of having some specialized CC guard infantry, made it a footslogger force, and ties the enemies hands behind their back.

 Selym wrote:
That would make units be very schizo. You'd never get all that to work together in a normal game, where you'd have 30-200 men.

I agree. I wrote it when I was drunk. Would be a good idea for a skirmish game perhaps.

I'd say infantry squads would be interesting for me if they cost 75 points, with a chimera and a power fist or combi-melta(pistol?) for the sergeant.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Crimson Heretic wrote:
the IG needs flexability, they also need a strong back bone...

And what will be done, is that bane blades becomes the new shiny. I dont obect, I have several of those.

I have a Hellhammer...

Buff Russes and 'Blades, and I'm gonna get hard when I see the new Dex.

 Selym wrote:
Up to three free Flammenwerfers/Plasmaguns/Meltaguns per 10 men?

I'll bite. Though, gotta bear in mind, that's 15-45 extra points per IG squad we're getting for free, at current costing. Though, admittedly, they're worth about half their current costs anyway, due to expendability and reduced BS.

FREE weapon upgrades on the Sgt, FREE Heavy & FREE Special - you could potentially see Sgts with BS3 PP & WS3 S3 PF, for example, plus BS3 Lascannon. Not to mention BS3 Lascannon HWTs, along with BS3 all-Plas SWTs. Simply because those upgrades become FREE, which makes them automatically playable.

Also, need to offer Chimeras to the HWTs and SWTs for the Mech Platoons. Tho a Transport 6 Chimera variant with an upgraded Turret Gun (ML / Autocannon) would be very fair for CCS / PCS / HWT / SWT.

How about that 1 LR could join infrantry squad ? (1 tank to 10 guardsman) Guardsman would give it a constant cover (or vice versa) and tank could overwatch if charged (whole squad) and mayby fire sponsors into its own melee fight ? (with possibility of hitting own men in case of a miss)

Additionally every guardsman unit with vox and who disn't receivr any order this turn could act as a spotter for artillery (all or just one spotter per 1 artillery unit)?

To make Heavy Flamers viable for Leman Russes they could add a 5+ upgrade to make them torrent. They are kind of useless as they are now.