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 Melissia wrote:
Boltguns are not gyrojet weapons. Gyrojet weapons are one-stage, while boltguns are two-stage.

Who says you couldn't ad a "boost" stage to a gyrojet? I read a 70s article on gyrojets and apparently there where occasionally problems getting the round clear of the barrel - a small conventional charge to push it out might solve that.

Also going by illustrations + models Bolters and heavy bolters have some kind of casing - there's an ejection port on both models and in many illustrations there are definitely casings popping out. Bolt pistols are caseless though - no ejection port.

the "casing" would most likely be a metal sleeve that holds the first stage in place against the Bolt. Seeing as there are several different types of ammo for bolters it is most likely that a round can be loaded manually without emptying the magazine, something that would be useful for Sternguard.

As bolt pistols don't have special ammunition it is most likely that their magazines are issued pre-loaded, in which case there would be no need to handle individual rounds, making the "casing" redundant.

Just a query: could a bolter round potentially be rail-propelled?

Sure it could, as long there is magnetizable material to be railed. But why? chemical combustion is so much more effective.

 Flinty wrote:

 WarlordRob117 wrote:
another factor to consider is the velocity of the round... a .50 cal round has been known to shred people just by passing within proximity of them, due to residual shrapnel and particles traveling with and splintering from the round... I imagine a .75 would do the same thing lol

If a bolter round passes close enough then it would pick up the local mass increase and detonate anyway.

I suspect you're under-estimating the fusing on a bolter round. They're fused to explode after achieving penetration, so if the increased mass of merely passing by something set them off the whole idea wouldn't work - they'd explode before hitting the target.

Anfauglir wrote:I've been wondering about the Guard officer armoury having access to Boltguns, too. Is it in the rulebook or Guard codex about the .50 version?

No. Such versions exist only in licensed material, which as we know may deviate from the studio's vision by considerable margin. In GW's Inquisitor RPG, everbody uses the same bolters.

mad_eddy_13 wrote:Who says you couldn't ad a "boost" stage to a gyrojet?

Would it still be called gyro-jet then, though? That may be the problem people have with using this term - I mean, by the same token we could say it wouldn't be hard to add a rocket stage to a conventional bullet...

mad_eddy_13 wrote:Bolt pistols are caseless though - no ejection port.

Hmmh, you bring up an interesting point there. That said, it could be a matter of interpretation:

 Lynata wrote:

Anfauglir wrote:I've been wondering about the Guard officer armoury having access to Boltguns, too. Is it in the rulebook or Guard codex about the .50 version?

No. Such versions exist only in licensed material, which as we know may deviate from the studio's vision by considerable margin. In GW's Inquisitor RPG, everbody uses the same bolters.

I'd forgotten about this when I first read Anfauglir's post, but there was an article in white dwarf around the time of the Guard codex release before the current one where it was explained that Guard officers were awesome because they were S4, the same as a Space Marine, so they must really work out (and that that was why they could carry bolters).

 Furyou Miko wrote:

 Lynata wrote:

Anfauglir wrote:I've been wondering about the Guard officer armoury having access to Boltguns, too. Is it in the rulebook or Guard codex about the .50 version?

No. Such versions exist only in licensed material, which as we know may deviate from the studio's vision by considerable margin. In GW's Inquisitor RPG, everbody uses the same bolters.

I'd forgotten about this when I first read Anfauglir's post, but there was an article in white dwarf around the time of the Guard codex release before the current one where it was explained that Guard officers were awesome because they were S4, the same as a Space Marine, so they must really work out (and that that was why they could carry bolters).

Hmm, I was kinda hoping to avoid having to imagine all non-Astartes who use Bolters having Chris "Bolder Basher" Redfield arms in order to use Marine weapons...

Wouldn't it stand to reason, just going on an Astartes' increased size compared to humans, that the ones supplied by the Munitorum would have to be stripped down, smaller and lighter versions? And if chambered in .75, wouldn't they need some sort of advanced stabilisation mod/reduced recoil installed to prevent the user wrecking their arm and shoulder ligaments after every use?

The lexi states that the Munitorum Bolters "pale in comparison to their larger cousins", citing the 5th Guard Codex (p. 88), but I'm not sure if the citation is for the final sentence only (the supplier), or the whole paragraph. Anyone have page 88 of the 5th Guard Codex on hand?

Page 88 in the IG codex is pictures. There isn't anything about the Munitorum bolters in the weapon description on p.68 either.

However, Don't the IG use a similar pattern to the SOB? After all, the SOB aren't enhanced either.

I think that's a bad reference. The 5th edition Guard codex is the current one as far as I know, and page 88 is a colour splat about Ogryns. It also states Dark Heresy as a source for the same paragraph, and we know Dark Heresy has different standards to codex 40k.

Saying that the Munitorium provides Guard bolters is like saying that the Adeptus Mechanicus make tanks. Essentially true, but missing the point - the Munitorium provides all guard weapons. They're the Guard's logistics division.

All the current Guard codex has to say on the matter is;

Boltgun: The boltgun or 'bolter' is a rare and devastating weapon amongst the ranks of the Imperial Guard. It fires self-propelled missiles or 'bolts' that explode upon penetrating its target, blowing it apart from the inside.
[Boltgun stats]

Bolt Pistol: Bolt Pistols are smaller versions of bolters. Favoured amongst the ranks of officers and Commissars, they are a potent symbol of status as well as a lethal side arm.
[Bolt Pistol stats plus several other weapons]

Heavy Bolter: An enormous version of the bolter, the heavy bolter fires fist-sized bolts at the enemy with a staggering rate of fire.

Edit: The Crusader - Sororitas use Godwyn De'az pattern bolters, which are (from the look of them) based off the older Umbra pattern bolters rather than the current Godwyn pattern. Older Guard models also tend to have Umbra pattern bolters, because... well, all older models apart from Sisters had Umbras. ^^;

 Lynata wrote:

mad_eddy_13 wrote:Who says you couldn't ad a "boost" stage to a gyrojet?

Would it still be called gyro-jet then, though? That may be the problem people have with using this term - I mean, by the same token we could say it wouldn't be hard to add a rocket stage to a conventional bullet...

mad_eddy_13 wrote:Bolt pistols are caseless though - no ejection port.

Hmmh, you bring up an interesting point there. That said, it could be a matter of interpretation:

Well based off the Ultra Marines movie the Bolt has a pair of rotating sections that provide spin to stabilize the round in flight while the Gyrojet has fins that fold out to provide the same function. In both cases the launcher barrel is not rifled allowing for higher velocity shots - the round itself provides the spin.

As for the bolt pistol ejection port - hell yeah, just like the C98

 The Crusader wrote:
Page 88 in the IG codex is pictures. There isn't anything about the Munitorum bolters in the weapon description on p.68 either.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
I think that's a bad reference. The 5th edition Guard codex is the current one as far as I know, and page 88 is a colour splat about Ogryns. It also states Dark Heresy as a source for the same paragraph, and we know Dark Heresy has different standards to codex 40k.

Hmm. Looks like lexi can be discounted on this, then. A shame.

Saying that the Munitorium provides Guard bolters is like saying that the Adeptus Mechanicus make tanks. Essentially true, but missing the point - the Munitorium provides all guard weapons. They're the Guard's logistics division.

Not really, as they come from different sources/supply chains eventually. All bolters may start in an Ad-Mech factory, but the point remains - Guard issue Boltguns pass through the DM before reaching the armoury, Astartes issue ones don't. Therefore the question remains: do the Ad-Mech produce a smaller, human variant specifically to supply the DM with, or do the DM get the surplus models and modify them in-house for non-Astartes users?

Apparently, the Rogue Trader Rulebook (p. 121-122) states: "Some models are designed specifically for normal humans which include smaller grips and lighter construction, though these variations are rarely as finely fashioned as Space Marine weapons."

However, again that's a lexi citation. And I don't know how reliable or official the RT rules are anymore within current fluff...

Anfauglir wrote:Wouldn't it stand to reason, just going on an Astartes' increased size compared to humans, that the ones supplied by the Munitorum would have to be stripped down, smaller and lighter versions? And if chambered in .75, wouldn't they need some sort of advanced stabilisation mod/reduced recoil installed to prevent the user wrecking their arm and shoulder ligaments after every use?

I'm sure they'd be missing out on some gizmos - if you look at the cross-section, the gun has a whole lot of tech attached to it, from palm-print sensors to auto-repair mechanisms ... I simply assume that the different from Marine to human versions would be that, just like with power armour, the latter offers the same basic properties, but misses out on some advanced features that are "nice to have" but not truly necessary.

The Crusader wrote:However, Don't the IG use a similar pattern to the SOB? After all, the SOB aren't enhanced either.

Matter of interpretation again - the 3E WH 'dex states that the weapons used by the SoB are "the equal to any Space Marine Chapter" (p.2), yet that does not necessarily have to mean that there are no differences at all. Just that they work just as well in battle and achieve comparable results.
That being said, the Sisters do wear power armour, and as such may be able to carry heavier weaponry such as larger boltguns. The heavy bolter, for example, is carried by a single Sister, whereas the IG tends to deploy them only in teams. According to Necromunda, it is quite possible for people to operate heavy bolters solo, they just have to be strong enough to carry them. See also: Sergeant Harker in the IG 'dex.

GW's fluff has always stressed that people's main problem in handling bolt weapons is not any sort of recoil (which hasn't been touched upon at all) but rather their heavy weight. Those guns are huge, and they and their ammunition are bound to weigh quite a bit.
Since "Inquisitor" gives everyone the same bolters, I see no reason to assume any notable differences in capabilities.

Anfauglir wrote:Therefore the question remains: do the Ad-Mech produce a smaller, human variant specifically to supply the DM with, or do the DM get the surplus models and modify them in-house for non-Astartes users?

I could imagine it's both. And in other cases, it may not be an AdMech model at all.

From the description in the Guard Codex, it sounds that personal bolt weapons, with exception of the Commissar's standard issue weapon (and status symbol), are heirlooms rather than issued by the Munitorum. The kind of stuff that noble gets presented by his father before he takes command of that PDF regiment bound to be tithed to the Emperor. And who knows where his father got hold of that one. In Necromunda, low-grade bolt weapons are produced even in the underhive, and I doubt the AdMech has anything to do with those weapon shops.

 Lynata wrote:

Anfauglir wrote:Therefore the question remains: do the Ad-Mech produce a smaller, human variant specifically to supply the DM with, or do the DM get the surplus models and modify them in-house for non-Astartes users?

I could imagine it's both. And in other cases, it may not be an AdMech model at all.

From the description in the Guard Codex, it sounds that personal bolt weapons, with exception of the Commissar's standard issue weapon (and status symbol), are heirlooms rather than issued by the Munitorum. The kind of stuff that noble gets presented by his father before he takes command of that PDF regiment bound to be tithed to the Emperor. And who knows where his father got hold of that one. In Necromunda, low-grade bolt weapons are produced even in the underhive, and I doubt the AdMech has anything to do with those weapon shops.

Yeah, I guess the most reasonable assumption one can make about the boltguns found in the IG armoury are somewhere between the two; not the master-crafted, sanctified holy artifacts made by and for the Emperor's finest, yet not the cheap knock-offs produced by and for hive gangers and other low-tier miscreants (which I always viewed as being more akin to autoguns, rather than bolters). Again, I guess the higher up the chain the officer goes the higher the chance of getting their hands on higher grade models, whether it be battlefield trophy, ceremonial reward/gift, heirloom, etc.

 Furyou Miko wrote:

 Flinty wrote:

 WarlordRob117 wrote:
another factor to consider is the velocity of the round... a .50 cal round has been known to shred people just by passing within proximity of them, due to residual shrapnel and particles traveling with and splintering from the round... I imagine a .75 would do the same thing lol

If a bolter round passes close enough then it would pick up the local mass increase and detonate anyway.

I suspect you're under-estimating the fusing on a bolter round. They're fused to explode after achieving penetration, so if the increased mass of merely passing by something set them off the whole idea wouldn't work - they'd explode before hitting the target.

So some kind of timing device then. Alternatively a round passing a few cm from an enemy torso must surely pick up a similar amount of mass in proximity to the bolt as would be gained from a head shot.

Supposedly it explodes a fraction of a second after impact so that it has a chance to penetrate before exploding. Otherwise it'd be pretty harmless and easy to defend against.

 Flinty wrote:


So some kind of timing device then. Alternatively a round passing a few cm from an enemy torso must surely pick up a similar amount of mass in proximity to the bolt as would be gained from a head shot.

It's HIGHLY unlikely that someone with a bolter will go for a headshot though. Modern military training says to aim for centre mass because headshots are tricky and essentially pointless when firing modern weapons at human-size targets. A bolter is used for the same reason - to allow centre mass shots against gribbly monsters instead of the much riskier 'showboat' headshots.

Therefore it makes sense that the bolter would be fused for a body-shot against whatever target is currently the enemy of the day.

 Flinty wrote:

 WarlordRob117 wrote:
another factor to consider is the velocity of the round... a .50 cal round has been known to shred people just by passing within proximity of them, due to residual shrapnel and particles traveling with and splintering from the round... I imagine a .75 would do the same thing lol

If a bolter round passes close enough then it would pick up the local mass increase and detonate anyway.

So, they have highly sensitive sensors in the bolts?

Tethgar wrote:So, they have highly sensitive sensors in the bolts?

I've provided a quote on page 1.

 Melissia wrote:
I never said it was significantly more powerful. I said it was significant, period.

Also, to toy with a tangent, the area of a 9mm circle is actually closer to 19% less than a 10mm circle, while the area of a 19mm circle is closer to 9.8% of a 20mm circle. Math is funny like that.

You said thicker, which is a reference to diameter, not volume.

Math isn't very funny. It's actually fairly specific.

 Furyou Miko wrote:

 Flinty wrote:


So some kind of timing device then. Alternatively a round passing a few cm from an enemy torso must surely pick up a similar amount of mass in proximity to the bolt as would be gained from a head shot.

It's HIGHLY unlikely that someone with a bolter will go for a headshot though. Modern military training says to aim for centre mass because headshots are tricky and essentially pointless when firing modern weapons at human-size targets. A bolter is used for the same reason - to allow centre mass shots against gribbly monsters instead of the much riskier 'showboat' headshots.

Therefore it makes sense that the bolter would be fused for a body-shot against whatever target is currently the enemy of the day.

In my view, Marines are high-tech super soldiers with decades or centuries of experience and are dripping in targetting equipment, recoil suppressors and autosenses. I doubt that they are going to limit themselves to only firing at centre of mass.

I would imagine that the bolts would be fused to be effective for a variety of target points (limbs, heads, whatever) and you also get the benefit of being able to finesse a shot near a target in cover for the round to detonate behind the cover. This use for explosive rounds for taking out targets behind walls/in trenches/etc was being mooted for the OICW project from a few years back, so its certainly valid.

[edited for snark]

a gun that has a rocket propelled cartridge has very little recoil, if you just have a small conventional charge to get it clear before the rocket goes off... although the rocket propelled conventional bolt is very non doable realisitcally

but even with a 1" projectile recoil is minimal in that situation,

hence why the whole rocket propelled thing, which is only in some fiction, is jsut fantasy

today, there are .75"+ shotguns widely available, not comfortable to shoot as a pistol, but doable, and two handed no issues, even for non steroided non guard umies

Where does the stalker pattern bolted come into all this?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 mad_eddy_13 wrote:

 Lynata wrote:

mad_eddy_13 wrote:Who says you couldn't ad a "boost" stage to a gyrojet?

Would it still be called gyro-jet then, though? That may be the problem people have with using this term - I mean, by the same token we could say it wouldn't be hard to add a rocket stage to a conventional bullet...

mad_eddy_13 wrote:Bolt pistols are caseless though - no ejection port.

Hmmh, you bring up an interesting point there. That said, it could be a matter of interpretation:

Well based off the Ultra Marines movie the Bolt has a pair of rotating sections that provide spin to stabilize the round in flight while the Gyrojet has fins that fold out to provide the same function. In both cases the launcher barrel is not rifled allowing for higher velocity shots - the round itself provides the spin.

As for the bolt pistol ejection port - hell yeah, just like the C98

C96 = intercourse if intercourse were a gun

 Phosis T'Kar Jr wrote:
I was looking through the SM codex and reading a few books- and I'm interested about something. They say that bolter rounds are mass-reactive (explosive). So in accordance to what I know- If I was shot in the chest by a bolter, would I blow up? Or, is there going to be a huge hole in my chest?

Playing the Warhammer40k: Space Marine Game shows that bolter rounds are not that explosive......But in 'Wrath of Iron' they describe the victims as blowing up like 'walking grenades'-or is that an exaggeration?

Your views on this?

That's an exaggeration.

What bolt-rounds do it they penetrate, and then explode- so if it's a headshot, the head explodes, but if it's a chestshot, the more appropriate response would be the chest being split in half. Though a Critical Hit! Might actually cause them to detonate. With horrific effects on the enemy's morale.

The Stalker Pattern bolts always seemed to me an even more awesome example of GW fluff goblins writing stuff that sounds good

Even with magical future tech I'm not sure how you could put together a viable round using compressed gas as a propellant that is held inside the round itself. Especially one that is supposed to be accellerating a mercury cored round! I would be happy to be proven wrong by physical chemists/chemical/mechanical engineers on this point!

Tethgar wrote:
Where does the stalker pattern bolted come into all this?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 mad_eddy_13 wrote:

 Lynata wrote:

mad_eddy_13 wrote:Who says you couldn't ad a "boost" stage to a gyrojet?

Would it still be called gyro-jet then, though? That may be the problem people have with using this term - I mean, by the same token we could say it wouldn't be hard to add a rocket stage to a conventional bullet...

mad_eddy_13 wrote:Bolt pistols are caseless though - no ejection port.

Hmmh, you bring up an interesting point there. That said, it could be a matter of interpretation:

Well based off the Ultra Marines movie the Bolt has a pair of rotating sections that provide spin to stabilize the round in flight while the Gyrojet has fins that fold out to provide the same function. In both cases the launcher barrel is not rifled allowing for higher velocity shots - the round itself provides the spin.

As for the bolt pistol ejection port - hell yeah, just like the C98

C96 = intercourse if intercourse were a gun

I see you're from the class of 96 (and I was calling it a 98 ).

mad_eddy_13 wrote:Well based off the Ultra Marines movie the Bolt has a pair of rotating sections that provide spin to stabilize the round in flight while the Gyrojet has fins that fold out to provide the same function. In both cases the launcher barrel is not rifled allowing for higher velocity shots - the round itself provides the spin.

Yeah, one of the many cases of conflicting fluff. Comparing this to the Codex material we see that Abnett's movie round is almost twice as long compared to the more "stubby" GW studio version, and that the barrel is rifled in the material published by the latter..
As usual it comes down to us having to pick what we like more.

Flinty wrote:In my view, Marines are high-tech super soldiers with decades or centuries of experience and are dripping in targetting equipment, recoil suppressors and autosenses. I doubt that they are going to limit themselves to only firing at centre of mass.

I think this could actually depend on the Chapter culture. Firing at center mass will always be more reliable, regardless of how much experience or technology you involve. On the other hand, not every Chapter aims at maximum efficiency when it comes to combat doctrine.

Also, headshots make for much more epic reading.

Flinty wrote:Even with magical future tech I'm not sure how you could put together a viable round using compressed gas as a propellant that is held inside the round itself. Especially one that is supposed to be accellerating a mercury cored round! I would be happy to be proven wrong by physical chemists/chemical/mechanical engineers on this point!

I'm no chemist or engineer, but are the tech level of available injection machinery and the stability/resistance of the container not the only limitations for pressure?
The trickier thing would be the level of penetration at a velocity of at best ~340 m/sec, but I suppose that's what the mercury is for, basically increasing the kinetic energy by compensating lower speed with higher mass...

All in all, I think this is just one of the areas where we should simply accept the technobabble for what it is and move on - there are way weirder things in 40k than this.

As for the C96 ... I didn't even notice the loose resemblance. Good call.

Lynata wrote:

Flinty wrote:In my view, Marines are high-tech super soldiers within decades or centuries of experience and are dripping in targetting equipment, recoil suppressors and autosenses. I doubt that they are going to limit themselves to only firing at centre of mass.

I think this could actually depend on the Chapter culture. Firing at center mass will always be more reliable, regardless of how much experience or technology you involve. On the other hand, not every Chapter aims at maximum efficiency when it comes to combat doctrine.

Also, headshots make for much more epic reading.

It may only be more reliable when shooting at humans or humanoids. With some tyranid gribblies you might actually be better off shooting all the limbs off first before actually trying to kill the damn things

Agree on the epic quality though

Also on the poing about the stalker rounds, I'm pretty sure you're limited by liquids being generally incompressible. Sure you get down to liquid co2 or n2 or something, but I'm not sure that that is enough to give the round a decent kick. Given he additional strength of power armour marines might just be better off throwing sharp rocks

If you hit centre mass with a bolt, you've got a good chance of blowing one or more limbs off anyway. A bolter would have made Dead Space so much easier.

Then again the 'bolter' in ME3 sucks. Worst sniper rifle in the game.

Only if you can get through the armour, which is not guaranteed even with bolters. Limbs are always harder to armour properly if you want to keep mobility

I can imagine them being massive and heavy as all get out. But if a regular SM boltgun is .75 and the heavy boltgun is 1.00, then how much ammo could they possibly carry? I don't ever see extra mags on the minis or the art and, even though the Devastator/Havoc backpack is pretty large, I can't see them having much in the way of ammo. Maybe a few bursts and that's because the mentioned fire rate of the heavy boltgun is known to be prodigious, something akin to an MG 42 or higher.

Which brings me to my next question: have they ever stated a fire rate for these weapons that anybody knows of?