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Rather than ranking codicils by strength, they should be given a difficulty rating?
That should sort the men from the boys and their toys. ;-)

Allies certainly need to be taken into account, but it seems some weigh that too heavily.

Allies only need to be considered when they're Battle Brothers as they act as if they're in the same 'army' just like with Imperial Armours.
If they aren't Battle Brothers then they act as two separate forces and can't and don't provide direct support to each other.

SGTPozy wrote:
Allies only need to be considered when they're Battle Brothers as they act as if they're in the same 'army' just like with Imperial Armours.
If they aren't Battle Brothers then they act as two separate forces and can't and don't provide direct support to each other.

My grey knights and militarum tempestus don't do anything besides stand beside eachother

So we change the goal posts again. Units can directly support each other without ICs joining each others units or casting psychic powers. Does a tactical squad and a scout squad not support each other despite not joining one another? Its the same for a Firewarrior an Ad Mech Destroyer squad. If ICs joining and psychic powers were how we measured OP, then Ad Mech War Convocation is then not OP - no psychic powers and only one IC.

Tau can ally with GKs and SMs. Draigo can go in a cent star, hence Tau are OP. Tau can ally with Eldar and DE who can then take the crazy deepstriking wraithguard webway portal thingy mabob, thus Tau are OP.

Or is that nothing to do with the Tau at all? Much like the cent star has nothing to do with IG or BA. Just like a skyhammer as allies for tau will do just as much damage as a skyhammer as allies for BA or IG.

Edit: I'd just like to stress, I DO NOT think Tau are OP, I am using it as an example to highlight the absurdity of claiming BA, IG and others are OP or even just ok because they are IoM. I'd also like to say only 1 of my 4 armies are IoM, so I'd like to think I have a pretty unblinkered view on this.

"Much like the cent star has nothing to do with IG or BA."

This is pretty much it in my opinion. Cent Star makes SM and GK 'OP' as they're the factions making the combo bit having that combo with IG/BA doesn't make IG/BA OP.

However BA have their own Skitarii OPness and IG can do some crazy things using FW artillery stuff.

The skitarri are not BA. Are 5 drop pods, 5 scouts and a Sanguinary Priest OP? I'd like to think most rational people would say no. Are 5 drop pods, 5 scouts, a sanguinary priest, 3 units of 10 skitarri, a Dominus and 2 units of 3 destroyers OP... I'd personally say it definitely boarders on OP. So that's not the BA that's OP.
You can take the pods from SWs or SMs too, if you only want 3, and gain better units for the other slots, so BA are not the main culprits either, it just so happens that most people who want to hire a taxi fleet prefer to have more than 3. If you are calling BA OP just because of their drop pods (that all but 1 marine factions have) then I don't know what to say.

"However BA have their own Skitarii OPness"

There are no Skitarii in my BA codex. They are not BA. This is some of the worst logic I have ever heard in my life.

Even if this were somehow the case, I shouldn't have to buy two codices to field a single playable list.

As it goes, stuff like that should be CONSIDERED so for example BA might get some "points" for contributing to that and some more "points" for strong Allies, but in the end if it's weak on it's own and those are the only "points" then it doesn't count for much.

 CrashGordon94 wrote:
As it goes, stuff like that should be CONSIDERED so for example BA might get some "points" for contributing to that and some more "points" for strong Allies, but in the end if it's weak on it's own and those are the only "points" then it doesn't count for much.

BA's can still play well enough with basic MSU Marine tactics, including Grav spam, plus they also are the one army besides Sisters who can readily spam lots and lots of template weapons/melta.

Grav spam? We have nothing apart from bikes to put them on and we don't get bikes as troops. We don't have access to Grav Cents or Grav devs, our tacticals can't take grav cannons, so what grav spam are you referring to?
Also, almost every single army in the game can spam flamers and/or melta.
SMs: Sternguard, command squad, tacticals, assault marines, bikes, attack bikes, assault cents, dreads, speeders.
Eldar: Fire dragons and wraithguard are the best flamer and melta around.
CSMs: Havocs, Chosen, Termis, marines, oblits, dreads, hellbrutes, helldrakes.
SWs: See many of the SMs options.
DAs: See many of the SM options.
IG: Platoons, spec squads, vets, chimeras, side sponsoons on all tanks, hellhounds and varients.
Renegades: See IG.
Tyranids: Biomorphs such as electroshock grubs, carnifex spit, pyrovores.
Tau: Battle suits equipped to the wazoo
Orks: Burna boyz and tank bustaz (last one is their version of melta)
Inquisition: 42pts for a squad with 3 melta or 3 flamer + 4pt bullet sponges

But yeh you're right, only BA can spam flamers and melta. So THATs why people who have no experiance with them think BA are ok. Now I'm beginning to see the misunderstanding. We have to spam weapons that other armies don't spam because they find sub optimal compared to the rest of their own arsenal, to stand a remote chance and people see that as 'what BA are good at'. It's beginning to click now.

Experiment 626 wrote:

 CrashGordon94 wrote:
As it goes, stuff like that should be CONSIDERED so for example BA might get some "points" for contributing to that and some more "points" for strong Allies, but in the end if it's weak on it's own and those are the only "points" then it doesn't count for much.

BA's can still play well enough with basic MSU Marine tactics, including Grav spam, plus they also are the one army besides Sisters who can readily spam lots and lots of template weapons/melta.

No, they really can't. I live it.

" So THATs why people who have no experiance with them think BA are ok."

BA are probably pretty rare now and people just hear "middle tier" and nod their heads. They don't bother to go look and see that BA get practically nothing that vanilla marines are using in their power lists. And we get nothing in return of substance.

Martel732 wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:

 CrashGordon94 wrote:
As it goes, stuff like that should be CONSIDERED so for example BA might get some "points" for contributing to that and some more "points" for strong Allies, but in the end if it's weak on it's own and those are the only "points" then it doesn't count for much.

BA's can still play well enough with basic MSU Marine tactics, including Grav spam, plus they also are the one army besides Sisters who can readily spam lots and lots of template weapons/melta.

No, they really can't. I live it.

" So THATs why people who have no experiance with them think BA are ok."

BA are probably pretty rare now and people just hear "middle tier" and nod their heads. They don't bother to go look and see that BA get practically nothing that vanilla marines are using in their power lists. And we get nothing in return of substance.

Excepting Harlequins and DE as I know nothing and little of them repectively, I can literally build stronger mono dex armies from every single other dex than I can BA. And list building is a sad, sad, hobby of mine.

Harlequins: need a flyer with some anti armor punch. That's it.

Poly Ranger wrote:

Tyranids: Biomorphs such as electroshock grubs, carnifex spit, pyrovores.

Bad example. Very few models can access Electroshock Grubs, the Carnifex has never had a Flamer (unless there were some old biomorph I have forgotten from past editions) so I assume you meant the Tyrannofex, and Pyrovores are the worst units in the entirety of 40K. MOST armies can spam Flamers, but Nids are one exception. I do not believe there is anything in the Codex with the Melta rule either, though they Nids have always struggled to deal with armour outside assault.

My SW dreadnoughts don't have 4 attacks.

My troops and dreddies can't take some fancy detachment and get free transports.

Other than that SW are awesome and you can go straight to skitnja

Poly Ranger wrote:
Grav spam? We have nothing apart from bikes to put them on and we don't get bikes as troops. We don't have access to Grav Cents or Grav devs, our tacticals can't take grav cannons, so what grav spam are you referring to?
Also, almost every single army in the game can spam flamers and/or melta.
SMs: Sternguard, command squad, tacticals, assault marines, bikes, attack bikes, assault cents, dreads, speeders.
Eldar: Fire dragons and wraithguard are the best flamer and melta around.
CSMs: Havocs, Chosen, Termis, marines, oblits, dreads, hellbrutes, helldrakes.
SWs: See many of the SMs options.
DAs: See many of the SM options.
IG: Platoons, spec squads, vets, chimeras, side sponsoons on all tanks, hellhounds and varients.
Renegades: See IG.
Tyranids: Biomorphs such as electroshock grubs, carnifex spit, pyrovores.
Tau: Battle suits equipped to the wazoo
Orks: Burna boyz and tank bustaz (last one is their version of melta)
Inquisition: 42pts for a squad with 3 melta or 3 flamer + 4pt bullet sponges

Didn't see Necrons in that list.
Don't you fething tell me that Gauss is as good as melta.

 Mantorok wrote:

Poly Ranger wrote:
Grav spam? We have nothing apart from bikes to put them on and we don't get bikes as troops. We don't have access to Grav Cents or Grav devs, our tacticals can't take grav cannons, so what grav spam are you referring to?
Also, almost every single army in the game can spam flamers and/or melta.
SMs: Sternguard, command squad, tacticals, assault marines, bikes, attack bikes, assault cents, dreads, speeders.
Eldar: Fire dragons and wraithguard are the best flamer and melta around.
CSMs: Havocs, Chosen, Termis, marines, oblits, dreads, hellbrutes, helldrakes.
SWs: See many of the SMs options.
DAs: See many of the SM options.
IG: Platoons, spec squads, vets, chimeras, side sponsoons on all tanks, hellhounds and varients.
Renegades: See IG.
Tyranids: Biomorphs such as electroshock grubs, carnifex spit, pyrovores.
Tau: Battle suits equipped to the wazoo
Orks: Burna boyz and tank bustaz (last one is their version of melta)
Inquisition: 42pts for a squad with 3 melta or 3 flamer + 4pt bullet sponges

Didn't see Necrons in that list.
Don't you fething tell me that Gauss is as good as melta.

It's cheaper and everywhere.
And works on everything. Even those FW vehicles who are immune to melta.

 Selym wrote:

 Mantorok wrote:

Didn't see Necrons in that list.
Don't you fething tell me that Gauss is as good as melta.

It's cheaper and everywhere.
And works on everything. Even those FW vehicles who are immune to melta.

True, but the reason it's cheaper and plentiful is because its worse.
Glances always suck compared to pens.

Tell that to my Russes. A squad of Necron Warriors is more worrying to me than a unit with 1-2 meltaguns.

Unless they have krak grenades or meltabombs and are assaulting me.

 Mantorok wrote:
Glances always suck compared to pens.

A single lascannon in a Guard Squad: a glance sucks compared to a penetrate.

A unit of Necrons with Gauss weapons: three glances are enough to do the job.

With the current vehicle rules, glances are practically as good as a penetrate if you can get enough of them. No one can get more glances than Necrons!

 Elric of Grans wrote:

Poly Ranger wrote:

Tyranids: Biomorphs such as electroshock grubs, carnifex spit, pyrovores.

Bad example. Very few models can access Electroshock Grubs, the Carnifex has never had a Flamer (unless there were some old biomorph I have forgotten from past editions) so I assume you meant the Tyrannofex, and Pyrovores are the worst units in the entirety of 40K. MOST armies can spam Flamers, but Nids are one exception. I do not believe there is anything in the Codex with the Melta rule either, though they Nids have always struggled to deal with armour outside assault.

Yeh I agree, I struggled with nids tbf. I do remember Carnifex having a plasma like template biomorph. Didn't know it'd been scrapped.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mantorok wrote:

Poly Ranger wrote:
Grav spam? We have nothing apart from bikes to put them on and we don't get bikes as troops. We don't have access to Grav Cents or Grav devs, our tacticals can't take grav cannons, so what grav spam are you referring to?
Also, almost every single army in the game can spam flamers and/or melta.
SMs: Sternguard, command squad, tacticals, assault marines, bikes, attack bikes, assault cents, dreads, speeders.
Eldar: Fire dragons and wraithguard are the best flamer and melta around.
CSMs: Havocs, Chosen, Termis, marines, oblits, dreads, hellbrutes, helldrakes.
SWs: See many of the SMs options.
DAs: See many of the SM options.
IG: Platoons, spec squads, vets, chimeras, side sponsoons on all tanks, hellhounds and varients.
Renegades: See IG.
Tyranids: Biomorphs such as electroshock grubs, carnifex spit, pyrovores.
Tau: Battle suits equipped to the wazoo
Orks: Burna boyz and tank bustaz (last one is their version of melta)
Inquisition: 42pts for a squad with 3 melta or 3 flamer + 4pt bullet sponges

Didn't see Necrons in that list.
Don't you fething tell me that Gauss is as good as melta.

Yeh but I did say 'almost every single army' :-p, plus gauss is on almost everything.

 Jimsolo wrote:
Dark Eldar- Wych Cult units (barring Reavers) suck so hard it's insane. Every HQ unit in the codex is horrible when compared to other HQs. (So bad, many DE players take a 10 pt retinue as their sole HQ.) Lack access to the new over-formations that are becoming a thing. Overall, it lacks external balance. (And on a personal note, I think GWs policy of removing all units without models during the last round of dex updates hit us harder than any other army.)

Covens grant access to super formations. They're not bona-fide pants-on-head stupid like the Decurions but they're there nonetheless.

Poly Ranger wrote:
Grav spam? We have nothing apart from bikes to put them on and we don't get bikes as troops. We don't have access to Grav Cents or Grav devs, our tacticals can't take grav cannons, so what grav spam are you referring to?
Also, almost every single army in the game can spam flamers and/or melta.
SMs: Sternguard, command squad, tacticals, assault marines, bikes, attack bikes, assault cents, dreads, speeders.
Eldar: Fire dragons and wraithguard are the best flamer and melta around.
CSMs: Havocs, Chosen, Termis, marines, oblits, dreads, hellbrutes, helldrakes.
SWs: See many of the SMs options.
DAs: See many of the SM options.
IG: Platoons, spec squads, vets, chimeras, side sponsoons on all tanks, hellhounds and varients.
Renegades: See IG.
Tyranids: Biomorphs such as electroshock grubs, carnifex spit, pyrovores.
Tau: Battle suits equipped to the wazoo
Orks: Burna boyz and tank bustaz (last one is their version of melta)
Inquisition: 42pts for a squad with 3 melta or 3 flamer + 4pt bullet sponges

But yeh you're right, only BA can spam flamers and melta. So THATs why people who have no experiance with them think BA are ok. Now I'm beginning to see the misunderstanding. We have to spam weapons that other armies don't spam because they find sub optimal compared to the rest of their own arsenal, to stand a remote chance and people see that as 'what BA are good at'. It's beginning to click now.

BA's can put out a much greater volume of template and/or melta than other armies, as you have widespread access to additions such as the Heavy flamer, Hand flamer, Meltagun and Inferno pistols... Only Sisters and perhaps Guard can field as much or more across their army as BA's can.

A basic Tac Squad w/Heavy flamer + paired Hand flamers is only 100pts. Slap 'em in a Drop Pod for risk-free deployment, and that unit is a threat to most other Obsec units simply due to the sheer amount of auto-hits they can generate. (and they'll cripple most horde units en mass)

BA Assault squads are essentially Raptors +1 in every way for example. They gain access to the same ability to carry double Meltas on the cheap or double Plasmas for better anti-TEQ work, with an equally tiny DS footprint, and overall much better special rules than their Chaos counterparts get. The only other loyalist Marines who can get that are SW's, who then get hosed by the fact their assaulters are BS3 Bloodclaws!
Or they can still take 3 bike squads loaded with Grav/Combi-Gravs, and instead take a Jump pack Command squad loaded with Meltas or Plasma guns.

Massed Furiosos in Drop Pods are definitely scary. Frag Cannon + Heavy flamer is again capable of simply decimating entire squads. (even 3+ or better saves due to S6 + Rending on the pair of Frag templates).

Sure, BA's aren't an auto pilot army of super cheese, but you can still do some very scary alpha strike lists based around MSU and multiple CAD's. (especially when taking the BA's unique detachment for the extra Furioso/Fragioso slot.
The one big thing that's clearly lacking for BA's is that like Dark Eldar, they're really isn't a true Deathstar unit available, unlike the other 7th ed books.

And while the vocal minority think it's an irrelevant fact, BA's do get a helluva lot out of their ability to take a wide range of Battle Bros level allies, giving them a lot more synergies to play with than the majority of Xenos get.

I agree that SW's have more going for them in terms of pure cheddar power, (mainly due entirely to Thundercav deathstars), and that BA's are easily now the least 'well off' of the various Loyalist Marine books.
But they are still head and shoulders above the likes of Chaos Marines especially (aka: Codex: Plaguemarines/Nurgle Oblits/Heldrakes and occasionally Jugger Lords), and Tyranids who are so shoehorned into specific builds that 80%+ of their books may as well not exist! And the latter is truly boned when it comes to allied help, while the former at least have Daemons to prop them up.

" but you can still do some very scary alpha strike lists based around MSU and multiple CAD's."

BA suck at alpha strikes.

", BA's do get a helluva lot out of their ability to take a wide range of Battle Bros level allies, giving them a lot more synergies to play with than the majority of Xenos get.
"

Those aren't BA .

"But they are still head and shoulders above the likes of Chaos Marines especially (aka: Codex: Plaguemarines/Nurgle Oblits/Heldrakes and occasionally Jugger Lords), and Tyranids who are so shoehorned into specific builds "

Nope.

Please just stop, because you clearly understand nothing about how the BA do not fit into the current state of 7th ed 40K.

Or maybe you're just too negative.
I don't doubt your army is in a bad place right now but it sounds like he's come up with ways it could at least work and you're just dismissing it because that would get in the way of complaining, or because they're not Scatterbikes.

 CrashGordon94 wrote:
Or maybe you're just too negative.
I don't doubt your army is in a bad place right now but it sounds like he's come up with ways it could at least work and you're just dismissing it because that would get in the way of complaining, or because they're not Scatterbikes.

Maybe. But I don't see you trying to build a functional list out of this codex. It's hard to beat IG with a non-tailored BA list. What does that tell you? I'd also like to point out that one has ever won an army swap against me. I find it hard to believe that you can magically produce a winning BA list with positive thinking.

As has been repeated many, many times, the BA get very few of the units that marine players actually use in practice. They are strictly inferior to vanilla, and BA demonstrate the problem with trying to make things work by relying on primarily meqs in 7th.

Martel732 wrote:

 CrashGordon94 wrote:
Or maybe you're just too negative.
I don't doubt your army is in a bad place right now but it sounds like he's come up with ways it could at least work and you're just dismissing it because that would get in the way of complaining, or because they're not Scatterbikes.

Maybe. But I don't see you trying to build a functional list out of this codex. It's hard to beat IG with a non-tailored BA list. What does that tell you? I'd also like to point out that one has ever won an army swap against me. I find it hard to believe that you can magically produce a winning BA list with positive thinking.

As has been repeated many, many times, the BA get very few of the units that marine players actually use in practice. They are strictly inferior to vanilla, and BA demonstrate the problem with trying to make things work by relying on primarily meqs in 7th.

Isn't it fun Martel how a handful of people who don't play our armies continuously tell us how good our Codex is and that we need to stop complaining and L2P? If I actually cared a bit I would save their comments for whenever GW gets around to boning them just as hard as we have been and see what they have to say

Eldar never get boned. At worst, they are average. At worst. Because scatterlaser spam is always a thing. What varies is the durability/cost of the platforms edition to edition.

 Ghazkuul wrote:
Isn't it fun Martel how a handful of people who don't play our armies continuously tell us how good our Codex is and that we need to stop complaining and L2P?

Always fun...