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Martel732 wrote:

 CrashGordon94 wrote:
Or maybe you're just too negative.
I don't doubt your army is in a bad place right now but it sounds like he's come up with ways it could at least work and you're just dismissing it because that would get in the way of complaining, or because they're not Scatterbikes.

Maybe. But I don't see you trying to build a functional list out of this codex. It's hard to beat IG with a non-tailored BA list. What does that tell you? I'd also like to point out that one has ever won an army swap against me. I find it hard to believe that you can magically produce a winning BA list with positive thinking.

As has been repeated many, many times, the BA get very few of the units that marine players actually use in practice. They are strictly inferior to vanilla, and BA demonstrate the problem with trying to make things work by relying on primarily meqs in 7th.

You don't see me trying to make a functional list out of that Codex because I despise the Blood Angels. They could have an absolutely awesome Codex (and apparently they did in earlier editions) and I still wouldn't touch it with a ten-foot pole.
Conversely the Dark Angels are my favorite faction in 40k and I had zeroed in on starting them back before their new Codex, even though the previous one was apparently crap.

I stand by what I said regarding you being too negative. I'm not someone going "lern 2 play n00b", I'm not arguing you have a strong 'Dex, just that you seem to be strongly determined to paint it as unusable and dismiss anything that says otherwise.

I can list the "good" units:

Grav bikers
DC with jump pack/ power fist
Frag Furiosos in pods
ASM with triple melta in a pod (I consider this mediocre, but I'll concede the point here)
MM attack bikes
2 X MM land speeders
Sanguinary priest (kinda)
Sternguard

The problem is that these things don't add up to anything that other lists give a crap about. Using drop pods basically turns off our chapter tactic, and every BA drop scheme is completely inferior to Skyhammer. We can't field enough dakka to make a dent, and then we get shot or spoiling assaulted off the table. That's basically how a BA game goes.

None of these choices can hold the jock strap of: FW librarian dude with grav cents.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ghazkuul wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 CrashGordon94 wrote:
Or maybe you're just too negative.
I don't doubt your army is in a bad place right now but it sounds like he's come up with ways it could at least work and you're just dismissing it because that would get in the way of complaining, or because they're not Scatterbikes.

Maybe. But I don't see you trying to build a functional list out of this codex. It's hard to beat IG with a non-tailored BA list. What does that tell you? I'd also like to point out that one has ever won an army swap against me. I find it hard to believe that you can magically produce a winning BA list with positive thinking.

As has been repeated many, many times, the BA get very few of the units that marine players actually use in practice. They are strictly inferior to vanilla, and BA demonstrate the problem with trying to make things work by relying on primarily meqs in 7th.

Isn't it fun Martel how a handful of people who don't play our armies continuously tell us how good our Codex is and that we need to stop complaining and L2P? If I actually cared a bit I would save their comments for whenever GW gets around to boning them just as hard as we have been and see what they have to say

I'll say this. There are more situations where the Orks can be counter-meta than BA. That's why I'd rate them as a better codex. However, this is a marginal benefit when there are so many builds that crush the viable Ork units. They're both bad, it's just that Orks sometimes have much better math going for them. They both have codices filled with unusable unit choices.

See, you made a list! If it was truly unusable like you make it out to be then you wouldn't have had any, let alone a list!

Best units aren't necessarily good units. And army synergy doesn't get factored into those lists very well.

That said, the only experience I've had with BA was back when Mephiston was the height of cheese.

Still suggests they aren't nearly as unusably awful as he often makes them out to be. That's all. Not claiming they aren't bad at the moment, just that he exaggerates their weaknesses even further still.
Notably I've seen a lot of other BA players who don't seem to bemoan their army nearly as hard.

Oh, come on... I literally just chose the Space Wolves and Orks as my armies. I haven't bought anything yet, but I started planning them out.

Anybody know what to do now? Do I wait for a new edition, make a better configuration, or what? I don't want to give up on these guys... I mean, the only other armies I might like are the Astra Militarum and the Mechanicum. I don't like any of the xenos except for Orks, and I don't think I'll like being a heretic by choosing Chaos... help!

Probably because I constantly have it be a problem for me.

urbanknight4 wrote:Oh, come on... I literally just chose the Space Wolves and Orks as my armies. I haven't bought anything yet, but I started planning them out.

Anybody know what to do now? Do I wait for a new edition, make a better configuration, or what? I don't want to give up on these guys... I mean, the only other armies I might like are the Astra Militarum and the Mechanicum. I don't like any of the xenos except for Orks, and I don't think I'll like being a heretic by choosing Chaos... help!

Space Wolves are apparently still effective enough, even if they're "left behind", and apparently there are solid builds for Orks.

Martel732 wrote:Probably because I constantly have it be a problem for me.

Honestly, it sounds like it's because you only play against powergamers.

 CrashGordon94 wrote:

urbanknight4 wrote:Oh, come on... I literally just chose the Space Wolves and Orks as my armies. I haven't bought anything yet, but I started planning them out.

Anybody know what to do now? Do I wait for a new edition, make a better configuration, or what? I don't want to give up on these guys... I mean, the only other armies I might like are the Astra Militarum and the Mechanicum. I don't like any of the xenos except for Orks, and I don't think I'll like being a heretic by choosing Chaos... help!

Space Wolves are apparently still effective enough, even if they're "left behind", and apparently there are solid builds for Orks.

If I'm to believe some of the C:SM players I've met n the last month, SW are better than normal marines in almost every way, except formations...

Well there you go, Urban, you're probably at least halfway safe!

Well I play guard, and there's already a very nice thread on here about exactly what's wrong with them.

 Selym wrote:

 CrashGordon94 wrote:

urbanknight4 wrote:Oh, come on... I literally just chose the Space Wolves and Orks as my armies. I haven't bought anything yet, but I started planning them out.

Anybody know what to do now? Do I wait for a new edition, make a better configuration, or what? I don't want to give up on these guys... I mean, the only other armies I might like are the Astra Militarum and the Mechanicum. I don't like any of the xenos except for Orks, and I don't think I'll like being a heretic by choosing Chaos... help!

Space Wolves are apparently still effective enough, even if they're "left behind", and apparently there are solid builds for Orks.

If I'm to believe some of the C:SM players I've met n the last month, SW are better than normal marines in almost every way, except formations...

Grey Hunters are much better than tacs when assault matters. Currently, assault doesn't matter.

You wanna make blood angels better?

Use a skyhammer formation. Paint them red with white angel wings.

Problem solved.

You can charge out of DS, you can field grav cannons

That's just repainted vanilla marines.

Martel732 wrote:

 Selym wrote:

 CrashGordon94 wrote:

urbanknight4 wrote:Oh, come on... I literally just chose the Space Wolves and Orks as my armies. I haven't bought anything yet, but I started planning them out.

Anybody know what to do now? Do I wait for a new edition, make a better configuration, or what? I don't want to give up on these guys... I mean, the only other armies I might like are the Astra Militarum and the Mechanicum. I don't like any of the xenos except for Orks, and I don't think I'll like being a heretic by choosing Chaos... help!

Space Wolves are apparently still effective enough, even if they're "left behind", and apparently there are solid builds for Orks.

If I'm to believe some of the C:SM players I've met n the last month, SW are better than normal marines in almost every way, except formations...

Grey Hunters are much better than tacs when assault matters. Currently, assault doesn't matter.

This is weird. A lot of the game is focused on some good old power fist/chainsword action to the face, so why is it nerfed? Unless I'm not understanding what assault means... I'm really new here, no hate pls

And hey, I'm glad the Space Wolves are good, and that some consider them better than the vanilla Marines! In the fluff it is said they are supposed to be one of the most powerful SM chapters out there, but... I'm not sure I see that.

Martel732 wrote:

 Selym wrote:

 CrashGordon94 wrote:

urbanknight4 wrote:Oh, come on... I literally just chose the Space Wolves and Orks as my armies. I haven't bought anything yet, but I started planning them out.

Anybody know what to do now? Do I wait for a new edition, make a better configuration, or what? I don't want to give up on these guys... I mean, the only other armies I might like are the Astra Militarum and the Mechanicum. I don't like any of the xenos except for Orks, and I don't think I'll like being a heretic by choosing Chaos... help!

Space Wolves are apparently still effective enough, even if they're "left behind", and apparently there are solid builds for Orks.

If I'm to believe some of the C:SM players I've met n the last month, SW are better than normal marines in almost every way, except formations...

Grey Hunters are much better than tacs when assault matters. Currently, assault doesn't matter.

Tell that to my Templars. My infantry units will be very disappointed to learn that their last dozen games never happened

He probably would too... He seems to think that because melee isn't as good as it was before that suddenly it's worthless now.

 Selym wrote:
Best units aren't necessarily good units. And army synergy doesn't get factored into those lists very well.

That said, the only experience I've had with BA was back when Mephiston was the height of cheese.

I have a strong suspicion this cheese you speak of cannot be eaten.

 urbanknight4 wrote:

 Selym wrote:
Best units aren't necessarily good units. And army synergy doesn't get factored into those lists very well.

That said, the only experience I've had with BA was back when Mephiston was the height of cheese.

I have a strong suspicion this cheese you speak of cannot be eaten.

It was french and over 1000 years old.

 CrashGordon94 wrote:
He probably would too... He seems to think that because melee isn't as good as it was before that suddenly it's worthless now.

It's worthless when all your units die before they can assault. And GH die just like crappy old tac marins.

Martel732 wrote:

 CrashGordon94 wrote:
He probably would too... He seems to think that because melee isn't as good as it was before that suddenly it's worthless now.

It's worthless when all your units die before they can assault. And GH die just like crappy old tac marins.

If you only field 10-20 bodies and forgot to use transports, yeah.

My Templars do quite well by putting around 30 pairs of boots on the ground per 1500 points, and all take transports (or bikes, or jump packs). T2 assault is almost always guaranteed unless I'm nearly tabled.

 Selym wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 CrashGordon94 wrote:
He probably would too... He seems to think that because melee isn't as good as it was before that suddenly it's worthless now.

It's worthless when all your units die before they can assault. And GH die just like crappy old tac marins.

If you only field 10-20 bodies and forgot to use transports, yeah.

My Templars do quite well by putting around 30 pairs of boots on the ground per 1500 points, and all take transports (or bikes, or jump packs). T2 assault is almost always guaranteed unless I'm nearly tabled.

I've lost 53 FNP marines to Eldar in one turn before. That was with the old FNP bubble. I can't see how 30 is going to cut it.

I've lost 53 FNP marines to Eldar in one turn before. That was with the old FNP bubble. I can't see how 30 is going to cut it.

something something, dont play our armies something something L2P something something darkside.

 Selym wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 CrashGordon94 wrote:
He probably would too... He seems to think that because melee isn't as good as it was before that suddenly it's worthless now.

It's worthless when all your units die before they can assault. And GH die just like crappy old tac marins.

If you only field 10-20 bodies and forgot to use transports, yeah.

My Templars do quite well by putting around 30 pairs of boots on the ground per 1500 points, and all take transports (or bikes, or jump packs). T2 assault is almost always guaranteed unless I'm nearly tabled.

It also helps if you use the proper amounts of terrain and include at least a pair of LoS blocking pieces... Pretty much the only players at the LGS I've seen who continue to whine & moan that "assault sucks" are those stubborn people who insist on playing games against gunlines on planet bowling ball.

I can run a decent Assault phase with Tzeentch Daemons of all things! Including the use of allied Warptalons... Yes, that's right, Warptalons!!

There's a lot more to it than that. Sacrificial units really hose up assault as well. Remember that the opponent chooses what gets assaulted but a shooting army always gets to choose the target.

There are also many battlefields that legitimately don't have LOS blocking terrain. Think eastern front in WWII. And said terrain serves to slow down assault units as well. It's far from a 100% win.

 urbanknight4 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Selym wrote:

 CrashGordon94 wrote:

urbanknight4 wrote:Oh, come on... I literally just chose the Space Wolves and Orks as my armies. I haven't bought anything yet, but I started planning them out.

Anybody know what to do now? Do I wait for a new edition, make a better configuration, or what? I don't want to give up on these guys... I mean, the only other armies I might like are the Astra Militarum and the Mechanicum. I don't like any of the xenos except for Orks, and I don't think I'll like being a heretic by choosing Chaos... help!

Space Wolves are apparently still effective enough, even if they're "left behind", and apparently there are solid builds for Orks.

If I'm to believe some of the C:SM players I've met n the last month, SW are better than normal marines in almost every way, except formations...

Grey Hunters are much better than tacs when assault matters. Currently, assault doesn't matter.

This is weird. A lot of the game is focused on some good old power fist/chainsword action to the face, so why is it nerfed? Unless I'm not understanding what assault means... I'm really new here, no hate pls

And hey, I'm glad the Space Wolves are good, and that some consider them better than the vanilla Marines! In the fluff it is said they are supposed to be one of the most powerful SM chapters out there, but... I'm not sure I see that.

Play what you like. There are only two certainties in 40k; your army will be at the top and the bottom of the power scale during its lifetime, and the prices will only go up. Stick with the army that catches your imagination.

7th edition is more heavily focused on shooting than assault. Previous editions had the reverse. Making assaults less common and in some match ups a really bad tactical choice. Now this all depends on the meta you play in. The rules in a vacuum are slanted towards shooting armies, but certain factors impact this. One the actual armies in the meta and player skill. A mediocre player with a great list or a great player with a mediocre list can easily dominate a meta. A great player with a great list is almost untouchable, and a mediocre player with a mediocre list will only know suffering.

Let's for example look at my meta's main armies:

In a vacuum:
Great: Dark Angels
Good: Khorne Dameonkin
Mediocre: Blood Angels, Chaos Space Marines, Orks

Adjusted for player's skill:
Great: Dark Angels, Orks
Good: Blood Angels, Chaos Space Marines
Mediocre: Khorne Dameonkin

So if you only used my meta to base your opinion than Orks are a power army. Player's skill skews the power level something fierce and a lot of posters ignore it when relating anecdotes to back up their opinions. Plus your opponent's opinion of your power level hardly ever matches your own opinion. Take the gauss argument up thread as an example' The necron player is thinking of all the times it failed, thus it sucks and the opponent is thinking of all the times it worked, so it must be overpowered.

Player skill is important, but so is a players LACK of skill. If your opponent sucks then you have a good chance to win. I beat a Greyknights Death star army because he didn't know how to play his army and my boyz tarpitted him the entire game and my PKs demolished his terminators.

In a vacuum is the only way to judge a codex's power level because thats the only for sure way. Even tournaments aren't a good scale because they always have wicked restrictions on things like Eldar.

And both of the DA and Ork players are named Mike, so that must be an overpowered name as well.

Experiment 626 wrote:

BA's can put out a much greater volume of template and/or melta than other armies, as you have widespread access to additions such as the Heavy flamer, Hand flamer, Meltagun and Inferno pistols... Only Sisters and perhaps Guard can field as much or more across their army as BA's can.

whaaat??
Space marines can actually get the most flamers in a unit,and I really can't wait to see it used. But since I play eldar I never will :(
oh and for reference its a vanguard squad with fire hawks chapter tactics all with dual flamers oooh yeah!

Imperial Knights: Not as good as wraith knight being less than 300pts and has great benefit from Gargantuan Creature.