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wtwlf123 wrote:But it still provides two full turns of Fleet right?

Two player turns, not game turns. So you won't get the benefits in more than one of your own turns.

Beer4TheBeerGod wrote:

wtwlf123 wrote:For those with a lot of 6th ed. Ork experience, how have Challenges changed CC?

The old strategy of losing orks off the back line of combat while inflicting PK wounds with the squad's Nob is more-or-less over now, ya?

How are assault-based Ork lists handling this issue?

Yes, you can no longer rely on a hidden PK nob to survive and tear apart space marines. I've heard some players talk about just not using nobs at all, which I'm not convinced us but am seriously considering. Nobs seriously suffer in terms of what weapons they can bring. A power klaw, while fantastic against vehicles, sucks against anything other than a throw away character. Necron Lords with their mindshackle scarabs are particularly insane. On the other hand PK Nobs remain the primary means by which you can reliably destroy vehicles and in fact have gotten much better at that job since vehicles are so much easier to hit.

I'm keeping my PK Nobs for now. I seriously consider the likelihood of surviving during challenges. Against something I have no shot (including mindshackle scarabs) I'll just refuse the challenge and let my boyz do the work. Against another upgrade character it will depend on how much damage they can do. Most upgrade characters can't reliably do 2 wounds to a T4 model in a single round of assault, so against those characters I'll accept the challenge and let my PK do its job.

Give the Nob a Big Shoota (or Rokkit, maybe). It's "Ork in the mob" not "Boy in the mob" in the rules, so you can give you Character (Nob) an Assault 3, 36" range Str5AP5 gun to try and get sniping sixes with.



For Flash Gitz, I run about 6. I'm trying to get a few more modelled up. And 40 points is the cost of a Meganob, so I don't consider it too much. And yes, a Warphead would be amazing with them.

Interesting thing is, with the 2x FoC at 2000, GW's managed to essentially fix most of what was keeping Flash Gitz from being more used- lack of Heavy Support, and lack of Wierdboy support for them- but then they also went and gave them a bonus rule of ignoring cover. Now, when you really, really want a small infantry squad removed, you just point Gitz at them, no matter where they are.

wtwlf123 wrote:I had another question about Ghazghkull's errata'd PotW! ability: It was "nerfed" in that it only adds a bonus to the running phase and you can't run and charge anymore. But it still provides two full turns of Fleet right? I don't care about his PotW! only guaranteeing a 6 for running so long as I still get back to back turns with Fleet for my entire Waaagh!-ing force.

The Fearless part was also removed. Whether on purpose or by accident is unclear.

I am unsure why the Zzap gun dislike. I get the downsides, but the upsides have served me well. Admittedly I have had games where they did nothing, in 5th, but in 6th I've roasted LR and Termies, marine and Eldar bikes, and popped a bike captain with one shot. All in one game. Kannons would be more consistent but the chance for a terminator or AV 14 kill has worked. Not superior. Just a right tool for the job sort of thing.

I think in 6th everything in our codex finally has a place without being 100% worthless, even the Gitz. Heck, I'm actually eager to use things like artillery and Flash Gitz and Tankbusters more. Lobbas are barrage. Start pointing at special weapons eh?

I know the new codices coming out will skew power levels, but we've got some awesome troops, heavy, flyers, fast, and some of our elites are scary dangerous and everyone knows it. I know Kans and Dreads are relegated to theme and fluff without a lot of consideration in the list building, but I ran a unit of kans with the lead rolling extra armor and riggers for all and immobilization just gave me more units. For their points grotzookas and KMB are good and might be the way to go. AP 2 S8 is not bad at all.

Just my observations after a few games on a few things. I don't think we are nerfed. I always ran shoota boyz in 5th and the practice will pay off in 6th. Our Dakka lists, IMO, will be something to reckon with. Just can't trust in the overwhelming assault by T2-3. More likely a T4-5 finishing assault after blowing units away or whittling them to minor threats. I look forward to NOT moving a ton of boys very far, just rolling a ton of dice and watching as they fume as they inevitably fail saves.

Ive played a couple games where I left the PK off the nob, and didnt like it at all. I either wished I had it for krumping good armor saves, or wished I had it because of MC or the like. Just leave the Nob in the back, and go from there, because trust me, that PK is STILL very much needed.

but is it needed on all the troups choices? or we take it on about half the units and add in more boys?

Has anyone used the Burna Wagon now? I'd imagine it's just as awesome, but with added Wall of Death goodness.

virx67 wrote:Why not just keep the nobz way in the back? Sure, they are monsters at CC, but since you remove at the front, it doesn't really help them. I will be running them as the absolute last person to get into a melee, only coming to the front if they are fighting a weak opponent or a vehicle. I've always viewed their only purpose for the boss pole, and as a vehicle cracker. Anything else was just icing on the cake.

They can still be targeted by precision shooting and can be challenged. Personally I like having them be about 5" away from the carnage when they charge. That way they can avoid having a wound allocatted to them and yet still be capable of getting their attacks in thanks to the 3" pile-in move.

Anvildude wrote:
Give the Nob a Big Shoota (or Rokkit, maybe). It's "Ork in the mob" not "Boy in the mob" in the rules, so you can give you Character (Nob) an Assault 3, 36" range Str5AP5 gun to try and get sniping sixes with.

I was already doing that for my shoota boyz in 5th edition, but I hadn't considered the benefit of precision shots. My nobs are already modeled with big shootas so I might just give that a shot in my slugga boy squad. Especially since I can still snap fire while my battlewagon is running around and sixes are what I would care about the most anyway. If it kills a single special weapons character it's made its points.

Beer4TheBeerGod wrote:They can still be targeted by precision shooting and can be challenged.

Just remember that if he's not engaged, he can't be challenged.

I was already doing that for my shoota boyz in 5th edition, but I hadn't considered the benefit of precision shots. My nobs are already modeled with big shootas so I might just give that a shot in my slugga boy squad. Especially since I can still snap fire while my battlewagon is running around and sixes are what I would care about the most anyway. If it kills a single special weapons character it's made its points.

Can't precision shot when Snap Firing.

One of the things to think about is if you don't take a nob or a pk, what can you get instead? It's 45 points (for the typical pk / bp / arma) which doesn't seem like much but let's say you dropped them from two squads, now we're at 90. Now let's drop the 3 big shootas or rokkits and that's another 30-60, we'll say 120 points total from 2 big squads. That's a dakka jet, or another squad of 20 shoota boyz, or 8 more lootas! Now, would that make up for not having a nob? That's the question. With that said, if you're using trukk or battlewagon boyz you're probably always going to want that nob and his upgrades.

Obviously gonna depend heavily on what you're trying to do and your list but for me, I wasn't getting much out of the nob upgrades as my shootas tend to find an objective and sit there while my lootas / dakka jets / kannons blast away. In that sense I'm able to bring more "toyz" while keeping a lot of scoring units in cheap boyz squads.

However, playing against my friends I don't see much av 14 which could be a huge weakness. I just wonder though, how often does a nob in a boyz squad actually get to melee a landraider or something? My opinion is that a geared nob leader for boyz squads probably isn't worth it. He's either going to be super effective and cleave down like 3 MEQ, do nothing to avoid the challenge, or die without doing anything. I feel like the first scenario is probably the least likely though, if your opponent knows what they're doing at all because they can significantly reduce the number of meatshields your nob gets and in some scenarios like nob bikers charging you, they would still get invul saves AND FNP now against your pk. Not to mention there are all kinds of ways to avoid them all together, deep striking directly behind the nob, jump packs can significantly change the angle of attack, snipers, precision shooting from other characters, barrage weapons, challenges, etc.

definitely needs more experimenting and testing though for sure, like I said, might just be the people im playing against or my list but I don't miss my nob leaders at all... so far....

Beer4TheBeerGod wrote:They can still be targeted by precision shooting and can be challenged.

If they're not engaged in combat, they can't be challenged though... right?

And since they pile in at their Int step, they still get to attack even though they can't be challenged!

Dribble Joy wrote:And since they pile in at their Int step, they still get to attack even though they can't be challenged!

Good. I was hoping there would be a way to abuse this. So the pile in move happens after the challenge can't be issued, so you can attack with the PK and avoid being locked in a challenge?

Indeed. Simply ensure the nob is over 2" from a friendly model in BtB at the start of a combat and he can't be challenged.

Of course, since the rules for assaulting state that you must get as many models into BtB and engaged as possible, this does require a degree of placement/planning.

Since the topic was brought up again, I'll repost the details as to how a Nob can be hidden:

1. "Challenges are issued at the start of the Fight sub-phase, before any blows are struck." pg. 64. This means this is before the initiative step pile-in moves.

2. "A model is engaged in combat, and must fight if:

- During its initiative step, it is in base contact with one or more enemy models.
- During its initiative step, it is within 2" of a friendly model in base contact with one or more enemy models in the same combat." pg 23.

3. "Characters that cannot fight or strike blows (including those that are not engaged with an enemy model) cannot issue challenges." pg. 64. This means your Nob can't issue a challenge either, because of clause 1.

4. "Characters that cannot fight or strike blows (including those that are not engaged with an enemy model) cannot accept challenges." pg. 64. This means Nobs that are not engaged as per clause 2 cannot accept challenges. Cannot accept challenges != refusing challenges.

5. "Models make their attacks when their Initiative step is reached.... Note that certain situations, abilities and weapons [Emphasis mine] can modify a model's Initiative." pg. 23. This means that a Nob piles in at I1 because of his PK and also attacks at I1 because of the PK.

6. "Wounds from Precision Strikes are allocated against an engaged model (or models) of your choice in the unit he is attacking, rather than following the normal rounds for Wound allocation." pg. 63. This means that a Nob cannot be picked out in combat because he is not engaged as per clause 2.


Note that of course this really only works in the first round of combat. Once the second round starts, the Nob can of course be challenged or be hit by Precision Strikes since he should be clearly engaged.

Thanks for that clarification.

And props on the 1K posts.

AresX8 wrote:Since the topic was brought up again, I'll repost the details as to how a Nob can be hidden:

1. "Challenges are issued at the start of the Fight sub-phase, before any blows are struck." pg. 64. This means this is before the initiative step pile-in moves.

2. "A model is engaged in combat, and must fight if:

- During its initiative step, it is in base contact with one or more enemy models.
- During its initiative step, it is within 2" of a friendly model in base contact with one or more enemy models in the same combat." pg 23.

3. "Characters that cannot fight or strike blows (including those that are not engaged with an enemy model) cannot issue challenges." pg. 64. This means your Nob can't issue a challenge either, because of clause 1.

4. "Characters that cannot fight or strike blows (including those that are not engaged with an enemy model) cannot accept challenges." pg. 64. This means Nobs that are not engaged as per clause 2 cannot accept challenges. Cannot accept challenges != refusing challenges.

5. "Models make their attacks when their Initiative step is reached.... Note that certain situations, abilities and weapons [Emphasis mine] can modify a model's Initiative." pg. 23. This means that a Nob piles in at I1 because of his PK and also attacks at I1 because of the PK.

6. "Wounds from Precision Strikes are allocated against an engaged model (or models) of your choice in the unit he is attacking, rather than following the normal rounds for Wound allocation." pg. 63. This means that a Nob cannot be picked out in combat because he is not engaged as per clause 2.


Note that of course this really only works in the first round of combat. Once the second round starts, the Nob can of course be challenged or be hit by Precision Strikes since he should be clearly engaged.

Excellent.....

The problem with that, as Jidmah has pointed out, and Ive seen in most of my games so far, is that you have a pretty good chance of getting a HIGH charge distance, and when that happens, your Nob WONT miss combat and WILL be challenged. So yes, you CAN position your nob to have a better chance of not being challenged, but so far in 6th, my Nobs have been challenged everytime

KingCracker wrote:The problem with that, as Jidmah has pointed out, and Ive seen in most of my games so far, is that you have a pretty good chance of getting a HIGH charge distance, and when that happens, your Nob WONT miss combat and WILL be challenged. So yes, you CAN position your nob to have a better chance of not being challenged, but so far in 6th, my Nobs have been challenged everytime

Right, it's only really useful if you plan to get charged which as an ork probably isn't your best option, though it's not terrible if you have a bunch of shoota boyz for overwatch!

Cracker, show me where in the rulebook that it says the Nob must make his charge move before the other Boyz. Pg. 63 says nothing about him having to make his charge move first, only that he must Pile In before other models if there are others going at the same initiative step as him (which for us is not the case).Just stick him in the very back of the mob, let the Boyz charge first, and he can't be challenged.

AresX8, show me how a 9+ inch charge move when your not very far away will keep your nob out of the assault? I never said anything about when the nob makes his moves, as it doesnt say he has to go first. Again, Im not saying you cannot do what is being discussed, Im simply saying, its harder then you lot are making it out to be.

You don't have to move the full 9 inches?

Pg. 21, under Charge Move -> Moving Charging Models
"All of the models in a charging unit make their charge move - up to [emphasis mine] the 2d6 distance you rolled earlier - following the same rules in the Movement phase, with the exception that they can be moved within 1" of enemy models."

If you roll a 9" charge and you're only 5" away from the enemy, you can just move the 5" to close the gap and have all of the Boyz block off the Nob. I've been doing this in every single game and my Nob has never been challenged on the first round of combat.

Dribble Joy wrote:

Beer4TheBeerGod wrote:They can still be targeted by precision shooting and can be challenged.

Just remember that if he's not engaged, he can't be challenged.

I was already doing that for my shoota boyz in 5th edition, but I hadn't considered the benefit of precision shots. My nobs are already modeled with big shootas so I might just give that a shot in my slugga boy squad. Especially since I can still snap fire while my battlewagon is running around and sixes are what I would care about the most anyway. If it kills a single special weapons character it's made its points.

Can't precision shot when Snap Firing.

Oh wow. Such tiny details that make HUGE differences. Also thanks to AresX8 for that helpful primer on combat. Remember order of charging on assault:

1) Move into base contact with a fresh enemy model.
2) Move into base contact with a previously engaged model.
3) Move within 2" of a squad mate.

Please note these rules also mean with some clever movement you can bridge a 6" gap for purposes of multi-charging, say if there's a nearby vehicle or something.

1) Engage every model in the first squad. Do your best to position your boyz such that you minimize the space in between models so that as few models as possible apply to step 2.
2) Fill up the "gaps" until you can no longer placed models in B2B contact with enemy models.
3) Make a conga line to the second target with the 2" spacing.
4) Engage the second target.

I know it would require some very lucky rolls and some very clever maneuvering on the part of the assaulting player, but it's another tool in the toolbox.

Kharrak wrote:*Zzap Guns are really great. That automatic glance means they can potentially remove two hull points per shot - at at very least, a single hull point on any target

Is everyone sure about this one ... does the Zzap Gun causes an extra Hull Point of damage or do you only add the Crew Shaken effect ?

It's under debate.

It would make ZZapps a tad more useful for the points, but my gut tells me that they just add a shaken effect in addition to whatever else they do, not take an extra HP.

Sorry for just jumping into the thread with questions, but I was wondering how peope view how well Kommandos (with Snikrot) work with the new rules?

Thanks in advance

I'm afraid that they now suck diseased donkey, most times.

You can't assault on the turn you come in, rendering Snikrot a tad useless.

The heavy weapons the squad carries 'might' do some damage, just like in 5th, but the squad is basically overpriced boyz in paper armour, who will die come the enemy shooting turn.

In 5th you could pretty much guarantee tying up/killing a devestator team or killing a vehicle with them when they dropped in, but in 6th they really aren't worth it.

Beer4TheBeerGod wrote:

1) Move into base contact with a fresh enemy model.
2) Move into base contact with a previously engaged model.
3) Move within 2" of a squad mate.

This is what makes it possible to fail hiding your nob on the charge. In the previous post's example if you charge 9 inches with enemies 5 inches away, you HAVE to engage each enemy model in base to base, so if you have 20 boyz and they have 10 of whatever, 10 boyz will essentially surround them in b2b. Then step 2 says you have to move any more orks in range into contact with a previously engaged guy, so most of the orks are now engaged. Finally, step 3 your nob gets pulled within 2 inches of a mate and is now engaged.

Clearly the more boyz you have and the less models the enemy being charged has makes a big difference in being able to hide your nob, on top of how many extra inches you make on the charge. Assuming this is all correct in some ratio's / situations it does seem impossible to "always hide your nob" though. Realistically, you probably should be able to "most of the time" IF you didn't roll a huge charge / needed distance difference and / or have a lot of boyz to enemy models.

If you needed 8 inches and roll 9 for example, it would be much much easier to keep the nob unengaged as your front units wouldn't be able to surround the enemy in most cases and limit the amount of bodies needed to fulfill 1) and 2) and you can move on to 3). Then you just need a 1 boy barrier between the engaged b2b boyz and the nob because step 3 only says "move within 2" of a squad mate" So move the nob 2 inches away from that "barrier" boy and you're good to go. I think that would work but could be wrong.

A recent Throne of Skulls tourney was won by an Ork list that included Snikrot. He was used to distract/split the fire of the armies he was up against by plonking a unit of orks on their back lines.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
By the way, what do you guys think about the FW Armoured Battlegroup as allies? No need to buggar about with poncy 'umies, just lots of looted tanks...

OP wrote:26.) You can now throw tankbusta bombs. Throw, as in 8" AP4 assault 1.

I couldn't find this anywhere. Where is this listed?