Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Mezmaron wrote:Damage results stack so shaken -> stun -> weapon -> immob -> wreck

I'm going to have so many haywire grenades

Buttons wrote:

Praxiss wrote:If power weapons are now AP3 wouldn't give Terminators (and other 2+ save models) a HUGE boost as they would now have a 2+ save against all attacks in CC?

Seems a little harsh to me.

I always felt like 2+ armour saves were pretty meaningless, yeah it is nice if you are getting shot at by bolters and stuff, but there are so many high AP weapons that stuff like storm shields are a must if you actually want survivability.

It's been my experience that it's not a few high-powered weapons that get rid of models with 2+ saves, it's loads of light weapons. You hit a unit of 5 terminators with 30-40 shots from a unit of burna boys or warbikers or lootas and the law of averages says you will kill a couple of them at least. I've lost a unit of 10 meganobs over thee turns to massed IG lasgun fire (Their transport got blown up on turn 2 and they're slow and purposeful...) and those bastards have two wounds!

On the other hand, I've had my Dark Eldar shooting smothered by a blanket of heavy bolters quite effectively. People have to much of a fixation on melta and power fists. Really!

Cheexsta wrote:
Please, this is a ridiculous jump of conclusions. Force Weapons are currently treated as power weapons, but if they're going to introduce a statline for all close combat weapons, then I seriously doubt that any weapon will "count as" or be "treated like" a power weapon any more. Force weapons will more likely have their own weapon statline, which in no way indicates that they'll also get the 5++ rule. There's no need to freak out about GK becoming even more powerful.

Of course, I'm making as many assumptions as you, but this solution seems far more likely to actually happen.

That's also assuming that Parry Saves qualify as Invulnerable saves...

i like the power wepon parry gives you reason to take them

I'd imagine the "can move 6" and fire everything" isn't going to be a blanket rule applied to all vehicles, but that there will be a "Heavy" quality given to some vehicles (like the Leman Russ or the Land Raider) which will enable them to move 6" and fire all weapons. Ravagers and most Flyers (well, the units that will be flyers) already have it, except up to 12" instead.

It has been pointed out before that Leman Russes don't quite have this rule yet, and I'd also like to say that Monoliths pretty much have this rule already (except it restricts them to only moving 6" as well).

warpcrafter wrote:

Buttons wrote:

Praxiss wrote:If power weapons are now AP3 wouldn't give Terminators (and other 2+ save models) a HUGE boost as they would now have a 2+ save against all attacks in CC?

Seems a little harsh to me.

I always felt like 2+ armour saves were pretty meaningless, yeah it is nice if you are getting shot at by bolters and stuff, but there are so many high AP weapons that stuff like storm shields are a must if you actually want survivability.

It's been my experience that it's not a few high-powered weapons that get rid of models with 2+ saves, it's loads of light weapons. You hit a unit of 5 terminators with 30-40 shots from a unit of burna boys or warbikers or lootas and the law of averages says you will kill a couple of them at least. I've lost a unit of 10 meganobs over thee turns to massed IG lasgun fire (Their transport got blown up on turn 2 and they're slow and purposeful...) and those bastards have two wounds!

On the other hand, I've had my Dark Eldar shooting smothered by a blanket of heavy bolters quite effectively. People have to much of a fixation on melta and power fists. Really!

While it's true that power weapons may not be as effective as multiple attacks, this is going to make disintegrator cannons very effective as the main source of anti-terminator. After all, my army relies partially on 2 squads of incubi to go in and kill marines as soon as I've popped all their transports, and this includes termies from the occasional land raider.

Dr. Delorean wrote:I'd imagine the "can move 6" and fire everything" isn't going to be a blanket rule applied to all vehicles, but that there will be a "Heavy" quality given to some vehicles (like the Leman Russ or the Land Raider) which will enable them to move 6" and fire all weapons. Ravagers and most Flyers (well, the units that will be flyers) already have it, except up to 12" instead.

The alleged reasoning behind the rumour is to remove bookkeeping from phase to phase, ie. what a vehicle does in the Movement phase cannot have any bearing on what it does in the Shooting phase.

I understand it as all vehicles being able to move 6" initially. Then, in the Shooting phase, they can fire or move again, or some combination depending on Type (standard can fire everything or move another 6" and fire 1 weapon, for example; Fast can move another 6" and fire everything, or move 12" and fire one weapon...)

I LOVE the ideia of AP3 power weapons... I think they should aways have been like that... More tham it, i think all CCW should have AP: chaiswords? AP6, Power Weapons? AP3, Vibro Blades? AP4...

And i think some rare CCWs should have AP2, lets say Eldar Power Weapons on dedicated units (Banshees), Thunder Hammers, and/or Power Klaws...

Dont forget that Power Fists and Lightning Claws work per rules as Power Weapons, so they would stay with an AP3, and the Parry rule would be for Power Weapons without special rules (like thise LCs, PFs, and Force Weapons, who ignore armor as power weapons, using the RAW from 5th).

I dislike the idea of AP3 power weapons. If they can cut through anything like we are told in fluff, why is terminator armour an exception?

p_gray99 wrote:While it's true that power weapons may not be as effective as power weapons

Indeed!

Because fluff also says a lot of other ridiculous stuff which doesn't make for a good game. Like Ghazghkhull Thrakka having such thick skin that bolter rounds have no effect on him. Last time I checked a boltgun could still wound him on a 5+.

TBD wrote:

p_gray99 wrote:While it's true that power weapons may not be as effective as power weapons

Indeed!

Sorry, didn't notice that. Fixed it.

I'm in favor of AP for weapons in CC but I would like to see some pistol types become effective in CC as well.

Bolt Pistol: AP 5
Plasma Pistol: AP 2
Infernus Pistols: AP 1

...as examples.

I'm not in favor of giving more CC weapons like Banshee power weapons an AP of 2. Power klaws, power fists, and the Exarch power weapons should probably be AP 2 but not the rank and file Banshees. And I don't have any TEQ models in my army.

How about splinter pistols in C.C. giving poisoned attacks?

Instead of a bonus attack, you should simply be allowed to shoot the pistol while in close combat, full profile and everything. At your melee opponents only, of course.

Not sure how i feel about the suggestion that powerweapons are only ap3. So now storm sheilds are redundant? and we can just start playing terminator hammer instead of infantry or tank hammer. Lists like Deathwing will become the norm. And to all ye non TEQ capable lists, well, your screwed.

Yeah, i sincerly hope that this is wrong, as are the rules concerning dueling, and the multiple hits on front armor AV14 thing. That sounds weak as well.

Jidmah wrote:Instead of a bonus attack, you should simply be allowed to shoot the pistol while in close combat, full profile and everything. At your melee opponents only, of course.

Even more so if it becomes move assault shoot (sorry if that has been shot down, not to sure on that on) otherwise pistols and assault weapons are effectivly useless

sennacherib wrote:Not sure how i feel about the suggestion that powerweapons are only ap3. So now storm sheilds are redundant? and we can just start playing terminator hammer instead of infantry or tank hammer. Lists like Deathwing will become the norm. And to all ye non TEQ capable lists, well, your screwed.

Yeah, i sincerly hope that this is wrong, as are the rules concerning dueling, and the multiple hits on front armor AV14 thing. That sounds weak as well.

Like i said before if my deathwing get a massivly needed buff i will be happy, i dont want OP though just nasty enough to make GK and SW worry a little. Remember that DW at the moment in the hands of a skilled player do "alright to good" but anyone else they get groin punched easily, and if you playing GK or SW who can do what you do but better and cheaper (sometimes) then its a real uphill struggle, i just want them to ballance the playing field a little.

Nitros14 wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:Anecdotally the game seemed to suffer greatly from the intensely overpowered army books "designed for eighth" and eighth itself seemed to kind of push out the community that had cared about game balance and had been concerned about the direction balance had gone with recent army books. Whichever rumors you wish to believe go ahead and believe them, but I've never heard a single store owner or rumor state that fantasy is doing better after eighth and I've heard quite a few that state the opposite. Where there's smoke there is often fire.

Actually one of the nice things about 8th is the general balance of the army books. All of the new books have been really well balanced, Ogres slightly on the strong side, Tomb Kings slightly on the weak side Some of the old 7th edition books are still a bit too strong but nothing like 40k's Grey Knights.

One of the things I like about Fantasy is all the different varied armies that are viable whereas in 40k you see endless Grey Knights, Space Wolves and Blood Angels. Tons of 40k armies are in variously broken states (Tyranids, Chaos Marines, Tau, Sisters, Daemons, Eldar etc) while only Wood Elves and Brettonians are really bad.

Obviously anecdotally all I can say is how fantasy is doing around here. I can say that our local big Fantasy tournament Gottacon had a much bigger fantasy showing this year and that since 8th there's been a lot more people down to play fantasy.

I mean as fun as 7th and 30 power dice Daemons, the game being decided almost entirely by how well you could eyeball your charge distance and cavalry/monsters blowing up almost anything with a frontal charge was...

Man, you must be way off in your way of thinking here. First of all, 8th edition in WFB made the one most imbalancing efforts ever made to the game if you think about all army books. That is the main problem. Amries like Wood Elves, Bretonnia and so on are utterly worthless atm and players will stop playing. It's also very one sided games when large infantry blobs are dominating the meta.

When it comes to 40k I just can't beleive those who complain about Grey Knights when there are a Necrons Codex out that instantly wins th UK Masters, which is filled with good players. Look at reality and don't just be a GW fanboy.

You are most welcome to like the WFB 8th edition rules, but look at reality and not just in your own meta.

p_gray99 wrote:I dislike the idea of AP3 power weapons. If they can cut through anything like we are told in fluff, why is terminator armour an exception?

They can't cut through anything, and never have. Personally, I approve of a return to the situation where the heaviest personal armour requires anti-vehicle weapons to penetrate. If a Guardsman with a power sword can't kill a buggy, he shouldn't have much chance against a suit of superheavy armour either.

AlexHolker wrote:

p_gray99 wrote:I dislike the idea of AP3 power weapons. If they can cut through anything like we are told in fluff, why is terminator armour an exception?

They can't cut through anything, and never have. Personally, I approve of a return to the situation where the heaviest personal armour requires anti-vehicle weapons to penetrate. If a Guardsman with a power sword can't kill a buggy, he shouldn't have much chance against a suit of superheavy armour either.

I seem to remember reading in the old Incubus description that their axes (yes it was axes back then) could happily carve through anything, and the only reason they couldn't hurt vehicles was because there wasn't enough force applied, rather than it being anything to do with the weaponry.

sennacherib wrote:Not sure how i feel about the suggestion that powerweapons are only ap3. So now storm sheilds are redundant? and we can just start playing terminator hammer instead of infantry or tank hammer. Lists like Deathwing will become the norm. And to all ye non TEQ capable lists, well, your screwed.

Yeah, i sincerly hope that this is wrong, as are the rules concerning dueling, and the multiple hits on front armor AV14 thing. That sounds weak as well.

Well there are still weapons that still don't give an armor save. Necron Warscythes are an example of this, as they specifically state 'no armor saves of any kind may be taken'

Taken from Herey Online: http://www.heresy-online.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=959935713&d=1339896870

A cover? A cover with DarkAngels on it ?
( tactical marking on the marine in front )

Another BT cover? fantastic.

EDIT: Are they DA? 'cos I really can't tell at that size

1hadhq wrote:A cover? A cover with DA on it ?

Indeed, he looks quite black templarish with his tabard though! I wonder if it's the BRB; we didn't have a faction specific cover since the 3rd.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Charax wrote:EDIT: Are they DA?

Yes, it's DA. The green marine with red DA tactical marks and red bolter is the giveaway.

Idc for the cover (looks gakky though => no necrons!), just scan the rules part already!

ShadarLogoth wrote:

Agamemnon2 wrote:I don't think GW ignores the Internet anymore. I just think they hate all of us. I know my local GW manager has always done his best to disparage and belittle all GW hobby forums and people who post on them. Either he's a massive tool by choice, or it's some kind of party spiel he's been ordered to push.

Well, I don't if I would call it hate, however if you worked for GW and everywhere you turned you had people spewing vitriol at the company just because they can't figure out how to win games with their plastic toy soldiers...how would you feel?

I remember having a similar discussion with a blackshirt. Great guy, non judgmental, however he said he simply stopped visiting forums because he got sick of being shouted down by the vocal minority for having the audacity to disagree with their assessment of random unit A.

GW deserves a fair bit of criticism, but just look at the knee jerk reactions and negative perceptions on this very thread. Extreme amounts of hyperbole gets thrown around by some, largely grounded in baseless assumptions about ineptitude that couldn't possibly co-exist with a company as successful as GW. The difficulty level they present themselves with having a massive amount of armies with a massive amount of options is that some options aren't go to work with some strategies as well as others, and ultimately some options are simply going to fall out of favor whenever a paradigm shift is made with a new codex/edition . However, instead of looking into themselves, or just realizing you can't always win a game with dice, people rage on the company, as if winning was some how a part of the contract when you bought your models.

Not that I can't empathize with this mentality. I tried long and hard to get my old Pariahs to work only to see them get less and less competitive with each successive edition. However, I feel in general GW has made huge strides in creating a more balanced and dynamic game since I started playing 12 years ago.

Excellent points....

In fact, this part is gold "everywhere you turned you had people spewing vitriol at the company just because they can't figure out how to win games with their plastic toy soldiers...how would you feel?"

However, instead of saying "its the nature of the beast, and the beast is nasty mean and evil" they could look at other companies and see if things are different.

I don't think it has quite hit them yet in how they should be more interactive with their customers, instead of fostering a feeling they are being ignored.

For example, if lots of people were complaining that they "did not win a game" and there was a thread that said "Having problems winning with ARMY X? ". Or even a message of "we realize there was a mistake in CODEX X, we are working with our playtesters to come up with a balanced solution, until such we suggest discussing it with your opponent".

Other companies manage it...sure, it is still hard (really hard, ever read the blizzard forums, another company was WOTC and their Star Wars games - the designers would actually answer questions, and occasionally fix rules) but the problem is not that "its hard" its that GW does not try. Communications is one of the hardest things for companies to get ...and gw is terrible at it.

They either ignore it (we will just raise prices and see what happens) or have communication that is so far from reality that its worthless (their pr on the finecast stuff). Managing a community is very hard; but if you don't even try...its disastrous.

Also, its not just that some of the rules are bad...that can happen to any company (you never have an infinite amount of time to play test) its that so many of them are, and how readily apparent they are.

Even in this example, if GW bothered to communicate, they could say "hey, give this a chance, it was not as bad in playtesting" or "oops, that one slipped through...".

So in summary; they can either manage the situation or stick their head in the sand and become a victim of it.

Now, I hear a lot of these rumors (getting back on topic) and some of them...well, they DO seem broken (how the heck and I gonna kill termies if my power weapons are ap3???) but we have to wait and see everything, to see the context before we freak out. Tragically, gw does not have a great track record here....but one can hope.

Personally, so far, some of these changes feel good...I do think a land raider should be harder to kill than a single shot, but easier than 300...and so far, these new rules sound like they might do that. We shall see....what two weeks?

Gah Heresy is work blocked, any kind soul willing to rehost the pic on imgur or some similar free hosting site, as I'm in work for another five hours.

to refuse an obvioius and much needed buff to basic infantry to protect the sanctity of a gun that was both rare and unliked anyway is silly.

And did I do that or is it just your wishful thinking?

Bolters need a buff as do all rapid fire weapons BUT that also means the better ones like stormbolters need their own buffs to keep them within the fluff (being better then "simple" bolters) and point cost.
There needs to be an inventive to take and use both.