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2015/04/23 15:18:35
Subject: Anyone worked with Battlegrounds Wargaming (my terrible experience)
I've seen enough to have a pretty good feel on what's going on. And you keep digging yourself into a deeper hole with every post.
Little hint for you. The physical value isn't what I was talking about. You literally said to a customer "this means nothing to me." You told them that their time and money for their item is not worth it to you, the person they trusted to paint it.
Every little evasive post, every attempt to shift attention away from your responsibilities, every little "you're slandering my name" said to customers (real nice one there, good way to keep up a business image) tells me volumes about this situation. I've yet to see anything from you that shows me you give one tiny gak about your customers, other than as a means to maintain your income while shirking your obligations to them.
Battlegrounds Wargaming wrote: Sure Kevin that is no problem. Your last email just said otherwise. As I stated in that email, I'm a business we get Warhammer for cheaper then most. This hassle isn't worth what Warhammers physical dollar value is to us. The accusations of theft and fraud are just crazy as I've contacted everyone long after everyone stopped contacting me. I was in the clear yet I messaged you guys back to fix all of this. I clearly have everything here and I'm clearly not stealing.
Automatically Appended Next Post: The models aren't worth any great physical value to me. CURRAN you don't even know what is going on here at all.
I'll expect a tracking number by end of day, will keep the people in the thread updated.
Battlegrounds Wargaming: What is troubling to see as someone un-involved and a potential customer is this:
Your customer is dissatisfied with the (lack?) of timeline and no evidence of progress and wanted their product back and you are not entering any dialogue to address this. If say, some "block painting" was performed, then some minor payment could be issued and get the goods back to customer, this is easy customer service dialogue to get into.
Claims of product being sent and then sold off needs to be addressed as plainly and clearly as possible to send the message:
No matter what happens, your models are safe and can be returned to you at any time. This issue / rumor / complaint / allegation is enough to make me not touch your service with a ten foot pole.
Customers do not care what challenges you face, they hired your service, you agreed to it: be professional.
If you enter conditions of your choosing that can cause a delay, notify your customers, do not make them chase you.
I have a phone that can send email.
I can send not overly pretty progress pictures in under 5 minutes.
Or get a digital camera and go on a multitude of electronic devices and upload to then email.
"Messed-up internet" I hate to say is not an excuse in this day and age.
I handle supplier quality issues at my work and have had to give guidance to suppliers and my management.
You would fall under the category of being an unnecessary risk looking at the evidence so-far.
Take steps immediately to correct this if you plan on running a business with any hope of success.
A revolution is an idea which has found its bayonets.
Napoleon Bonaparte
2015/04/23 16:30:00
Subject: Re:Anyone worked with Battlegrounds Wargaming (my terrible experience)
Battlegrounds Wargaming wrote: No one here said the customers weren't appreciated. I said the models weren't worth anything to me therefore stealing them and theb selling them to make money would not be worth thia trouble. Your putting words in my mouth.
You mean the model that the customer trusted you to take care of? The model that the customer's time and money went into acquiring? Yeah. That's telling them that their time and effort is nothing to you.
Battlegrounds Wargaming wrote: No one here said the customers weren't appreciated. I said the models weren't worth anything to me therefore stealing them and theb selling them to make money would not be worth thia trouble. Your putting words in my mouth.
Dear Battlegrounds guy. As someone who is in the business let me give you a piece of advice. Get out of it now. You're clearly over your head here. Trust me when I say that the amount of money you THINK you will be making running a commission business will never match up to the reality. You've already got a black eye that will most likely never go away and trust me, in the flooded market where every day someone who can paint a miniature decently opens up a commission studio and a quick google search of your business name turns up this thread, people will want to go elsewhere to get their army men painted. Honestly, just send everything back and start looking for a career that has a future in it. If you want to paint on the side for some extra beer money do so, but don't keep trying to make it your business. You clearly don't have the knack for it. I don't say this to be mean, I say this as someone who is watching you dig a hole deeper and deeper for yourself.
2015/04/23 17:04:32
Subject: Anyone worked with Battlegrounds Wargaming (my terrible experience)
Unprofessional behaviour aside, as a commission painter, I have hundreds to thousands of pounds worth of models pass through my hands every year. I work almost exclusively with new on-sprue or otherwise 'mint' models, usually bought as part of the commission. To me personally they're worthless other than as a material component in my work. I would make next to no profit in trying to sell them on compared to the value of the job they're booked as.
So, that point stands. But you can't go taking on work that you'll do in preference to a booked job without the blessing or understanding of your clients; they will rightfully flush your name and reputation right down the gakker, and those are the key assets in running a commission business of any sort, from plumbing to sculpture to mini painting.
2015/04/23 17:11:43
Subject: Re:Anyone worked with Battlegrounds Wargaming (my terrible experience)
Battlegrounds Wargaming wrote: No one here said the customers weren't appreciated. I said the models weren't worth anything to me therefore stealing them and theb selling them to make money would not be worth thia trouble. Your putting words in my mouth.
Unfortunate choice of wording but I understand the intent.
Putting I hope better words in your mouth: "Selling stolen property would create far more difficulty than it would ever be worth."
Unfortunately the allegation of an army of WHFB elves were put in your care and not returned with that person's other property still is unaddressed.
What happened to it?
Careful clear wording forgives much.
I could imagine saying this (not saying this happened):
Telling customer: Your army was crushed in a move, there were no survivors.
I am purchasing all of those units for replacement.
You had expended effort in assembling these models that I may not be able to readily replace.
Could we discuss what models I can send in addition to replacement to compensate?
Would you feel comfortable if I assemble to an equal or better standard?
Please forward any specific requests if so.
Or some trade on painting service time with the agreement your product takes priority when submitted?
People not knowing what is going on will always assume the worst.
Be direct and brutally honest, any customer worth having will appreciate it.
The damage may be done, but there are other ways to rise from the ashes.
BTW: if you are trying to pull a fast one: all room for "misunderstanding" is now gone.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/04/23 17:13:37
A revolution is an idea which has found its bayonets.
Napoleon Bonaparte
2015/04/23 17:18:04
Subject: Re:Anyone worked with Battlegrounds Wargaming (my terrible experience)
Battlegrounds Wargaming wrote: No one here said the customers weren't appreciated. I said the models weren't worth anything to me therefore stealing them and theb selling them to make money would not be worth thia trouble. Your putting words in my mouth.
Unfortunate choice of wording but I understand the intent.
Putting I hope better words in your mouth: "Selling stolen property would create far more difficulty than it would ever be worth."
Unfortunately the allegation of an army of WHFB elves were put in your care and not returned with that person's other property still is unaddressed.
What happened to it?
Careful clear wording forgives much..
To clarify my post, my brother had sent him a High Elf army as payment to get some space wolves painted. In the end the wolves were not painted, and he was told he couldn't get the elves back as they had been sold, nor was the money they were sold for returned to my brother.
Battlegrounds Wargaming wrote: See the misunderstanding here is that I need to continue business in order to even be able to paint these for everyone. If i can't survive of painting then I need a new job. Which will leave me almost no time to five you guys your money or your painting. Everyone's situation is slightly different. You guys think I'm just gathering more up to ignore when the truth is Im behind. I need to continue working group on old projects to catch up while working a bit here and there on new projects, if it doesn't happen this way I need get a job claim bankrupt And that's it.
Automatically Appended Next Post: To the people saying call the police. Please just stop your getting everyone excited and just yesterday a customer was told by peel police that they have no legal jurisdiction to do anything. I had one officer harass me. To find out yesterday he wasn't allowed to and he did get in trouble when I mentioned it to his sergeant. Regardless I've made recent contact with everyone here. And the fact that I have had hundreds of customerservice and 4 issues. I think that's hardly enough to call me a the of meanwhile I'm here right now talking to every single one of you.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And thanks Talizar for understanding a bit. Your right but like I said everyone wants everything right now and I'm behind. I can't just wipe out these guys projects and pound them out in a few days. I have spoken to all these customers through email and have explained that their stuff is here and safe. Explained the delay as honestly as I could. I didn't need to tell anyone about my personal life but as I said before I do appreciate every customer and it makes me feel terrible to have this happen. This whole trying to stop me from moving on thing isn't working either considering the fact that you are all asking me to get a move on with this. All this is doing is slowing me down and creating a potential tial situation where I need to move on to a new job. And then I won't be able to help anyone. I don't want that. I want all these model back on all of your gaming tables looking great. You guys just have to be patient.
Automatically Appended Next Post: MButler said earlier I'm uploading pics every few hours to my fb page and such. I can't pay any more the I already do.
I've been reading this thread and have kept quiet till now.
First. You need to acknowledge that you are in the wrong here. You messed up. It happens. It's what is done after that counts. Revenue is the life blood of a business. How do you see driving more revenue with this hanging over your head? We are a small community and we all talk on more than just Dakka.
You need to make things right. You need to send the one person they're tank back like yesterday. You need to send the Space Wolves to the guy that sent you the High Elves. You need to complete the projects you have now and then scale down your "business". Maybe start locally and rebuild your reputation by completing orders on time and to standard. Get a feel for how long it actually takes you to finish a project. If you can't handle more than a squad or two at a time, only do that. It's hard to tell a customer you can not do something. It's much harder to tell them that you over committed and now your fethed. You are dealing with peoples money and they're hard earned hobby. You are messing with there emotional investment as well.
Now as I try to be responsible to the community I love. I will be posting today on my blog (6000+) readers warning about your "company" and it's issues. I will be more than happy to update as you make amends (if these customers see fit to verify that you have actually recompensed them).
If you don't have the models or the money to make things right you need to figure out what to do to get them (up to and including selling your own stuff to fix this). Your business is based on your reputation, right now you have a very bad one.
Fix your mess, If it takes time and effort than do that.
As to time. I work full time. I go to university full time (12 credit hours), I have 4 kids and a loving wife that all get my attention. I still manage to produce models to above table top standard in a timely fashion for posting to my blog, facebook page and soon to be YouTube channel. So time is not an excuse.
If you have any questions or issues feel free to PM me.
Battlegrounds Wargaming wrote: See thats the thing know one really knows what's going on. The space wolves were sent back months ago. He has already received everything except the tank he wanted me to finish. As for the high elves that were sold. Twinner sold them to our store for painting credit which he still has. If you sell something to a store that is in turn going to resell it, you can't change your mind. There are no refunds on that kind if thing. How could you possible go to a pawn store give them something then get mad months later when you say you want your stuff back and they say they sold it. As for the work load, I have no issue painting huge commissions. I have completed hundreds of commissions much larger then these on time many times. We just have issues with these few guys. I've painted over 100 miniatures just this week. Problem is that everyone keeps talking, no one knows the truth. Everyone has a half story and the ones that think they have the story don't even know what I still have or don't
He is right the space wolves were returned, unpainted. He never mentioned the high elves were sold to the store. Irvin traded them in to have the wolves painted, when they were not painted he expected them back. He was told they had been sold, so he had asked for the money that they were sold for. Instead of giving the money Sean insisted that he would only get painting credit, and that he would not get the money back. The problem is that would require us to trust him with models again, which would not happen. So in the end he basically stole high elves, offering a credit instead which would never be used. Irvin has over $1000 of credit with this guy from the work of the spreadsheets and the high elves. This is credit that will never get used, he has money from elves that he never did the work for, refused to give the elves or the money that they were sold for back to my brother. Your analogy with the pawn shop is flawed, as when you pawn something you are given funds in return (or in the case a paint job), if the pawn shop failed to provide these funds they would give the item back, they would not sell it and offer you another item which they themselves could not provide. If you find one person on this forum to agree with you I would happily think that this is common business practice. But as a matter of fact it isn't.
Furthermore, lets try a experiment, because frankly I think you are lying and do not have my models nor anyone else's left. I see you have a phone with internet access, thanks to the photo of my message you posted. Please by the end of the day take a picture of my tank, and bulter's high elves and post it on this forum. In the picture please include a piece of paper with today's date written on it and your dakka handle. This is a task which I could do in mere seconds, so by the end of the day should be more then sufficient time. Please do not say they are packed, if they are, unpack them, as your reputation is on the line. There is literally no excuse you could give for not having the pictures up by the end of the day. Please make sure the pictures are somewhat clear aswell.
twinner wrote: Furthermore, lets try a experiment, because frankly I think you are lying and do not have my models nor anyone else's left. I see you have a phone with internet access, thanks to the photo of my message you posted. Please by the end of the day take a picture of my tank, and bulter's high elves and post it on this forum. In the picture please include a piece of paper with today's date written on it and your dakka handle. This is a task which I could do in mere seconds, so by the end of the day should be more then sufficient time. Please do not say they are packed, if they are, unpack them, as your reputation is on the line. There is literally no excuse you could give for not having the pictures up by the end of the day. Please make sure the pictures are somewhat clear aswell.
But dude, photography takes a lot of time, and there's so many models to paint!
Not counting the huge amounts of time it takes to compose a post on a non-mobile friendly forum on a mobile phone...
"...and special thanks to Judgedoug!" - Alessio Cavatore "Now you've gone too far Doug! ... Too far... " - Rick Priestley "I've decided that I'd rather not have you as a member of TMP." - Editor, The Miniatures Page "I'd rather put my testicles through a mangle than spend any time gaming with you." - Richard, TooFatLardies "We need a Doug Craig in every store." - Warlord Games "Thank you for being here, Judge Doug!" - Adam Troke
2015/04/23 19:27:19
Subject: Anyone worked with Battlegrounds Wargaming (my terrible experience)
Call the police. If what you say is accurate you have been defrauded. There is no jurisdictional issue, it happened in the same province, there is a paper trail. After you call the police, file charges in small claims.
It seems quite clear that this will not be resolved anytime soon any other way. If there is no wrong-doing, nothing will happen, if there is, let the authorities and courts deal with it.
But to me, when someone says 'don't call the police, they get in trouble for bothering me because they have no jurisdiction' that clearly says the opposite to me lol.
I don't have much sympathy for people who defraud their customers and confiscate both money and goods, intentionally or not, this is what has happened. Intention or no intention, the consequences should be the same too.
Battlegrounds Wargaming wrote: What are you talking about. I've said many times that it's my fault and we are behind. I also said I feel terrible about what's happened and I just want to fix this for everyone And that I want nothing more then to see they back on these gentlemens game tables
Below are all your posts. You said you were "sorry" ONCE, after being called out on your sleezy attempts at explaining away your failures to deliver the work you were contracted to do..
Spoiler:
Battlegrounds Wargaming wrote:I've contacted everyone here. If I was trying to get away with anyone things in wouldn't have contacted anyone. Yes there are issues with your commissions but business has to go on. No business on this earth would put everything to a stop. Everyone's projects are being worked, we obvious have a few of us waiting, it can't all be done at once. So we need to all just be patient. As MButler has stated I sent him pics of part if his project And we are in the middle of a move here so things are all over the place.
Automatically Appended Next Post: There are 4 people right now all asking for pictures of progress, it is not humanly possible for us to be able to do that all at once.
Ash.o we have spoken a lot recently up until this move. Where we had no Internet for a short time.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I'm uploading images every few hours to all social platforms and my website. Everyone here can follow along with everything we are doing here by checking out those pages periodically. Images pertaining to your projects will be sent to each of your individually through email shortly after the photos are taken
Battlegrounds Wargaming wrote:Giving everyone photos of progress on their work at once isn't possible. Painting takes time and I only have two hands.
Battlegrounds Wargaming wrote:Your not understanding, they want to see progress pics. Progress pic take time as you need to paint to gain progress. We can only gain progress on a few projects at a time, therefore we can only supply photos of a few projects at a time. As we are discussing here, we have moved recently so if anyone wants pics of anything uncompleted I have to wait until the studio is back in order and everything is unpacked To do so.
Battlegrounds Wargaming wrote:Curran, your not understanding. This issue is out dating the move. I am talking customers here that know what I'm talking about. I've been asked for pics of uncompleted models as well as progress pics. Two very different things. Painting takes time which is why everyone can't have progress pics at once and sure I can take pics of uncompleted stuff for the people that asked as it become available as it is packed still.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Kevin the last email I got from you two weeks ago says nothing about shipping it back you. Asked for photos of progress. Meaning to me that you wanted it painted.
Battlegrounds Wargaming wrote:You have heard us reach out to you publically. Despite the hundreds of email we have between each other. Any further business between clients can be spoken to on an email basis.
Battlegrounds Wargaming wrote:In the end stuff like this is the stuff that doesn't help time lines. I tried to stay off this page for while but it needed to be shown in was contacting everyone. I apologize for all the issues and the most I can say is we need to be patient as we we are getting to everyone, one at a time.
Battlegrounds Wargaming wrote:Sure Kevin that is no problem. Your last email just said otherwise. As I stated in that email, I'm a business we get Warhammer for cheaper then most. This hassle isn't worth what Warhammers physical dollar value is to us. The accusations of theft and fraud are just crazy as I've contacted everyone long after everyone stopped contacting me. I was in the clear yet I messaged you guys back to fix all of this. I clearly have everything here and I'm clearly not stealing.
Automatically Appended Next Post: The models aren't worth any great physical value to me. CURRAN you don't even know what is going on here at all.
Battlegrounds Wargaming wrote:No one here said the customers weren't appreciated. I said the models weren't worth anything to me therefore stealing them and theb selling them to make money would not be worth thia trouble. Your putting words in my mouth.
Battlegrounds Wargaming wrote:See the misunderstanding here is that I need to continue business in order to even be able to paint these for everyone. If i can't survive of painting then I need a new job. Which will leave me almost no time to five you guys your money or your painting. Everyone's situation is slightly different. You guys think I'm just gathering more up to ignore when the truth is Im behind. I need to continue working group on old projects to catch up while working a bit here and there on new projects, if it doesn't happen this way I need get a job claim bankrupt And that's it.
Automatically Appended Next Post: To the people saying call the police. Please just stop your getting everyone excited and just yesterday a customer was told by peel police that they have no legal jurisdiction to do anything. I had one officer harass me. To find out yesterday he wasn't allowed to and he did get in trouble when I mentioned it to his sergeant. Regardless I've made recent contact with everyone here. And the fact that I have had hundreds of customerservice and 4 issues. I think that's hardly enough to call me a the of meanwhile I'm here right now talking to every single one of you.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And thanks Talizar for understanding a bit. Your right but like I said everyone wants everything right now and I'm behind. I can't just wipe out these guys projects and pound them out in a few days. I have spoken to all these customers through email and have explained that their stuff is here and safe. Explained the delay as honestly as I could. I didn't need to tell anyone about my personal life but as I said before I do appreciate every customer and it makes me feel terrible to have this happen. This whole trying to stop me from moving on thing isn't working either considering the fact that you are all asking me to get a move on with this. All this is doing is slowing me down and creating a potential tial situation where I need to move on to a new job. And then I won't be able to help anyone. I don't want that. I want all these model back on all of your gaming tables looking great. You guys just have to be patient.
Automatically Appended Next Post: MButler said earlier I'm uploading pics every few hours to my fb page and such. I can't pay any more the I already do.
Battlegrounds Wargaming wrote:See thats the thing know one really knows what's going on. The space wolves were sent back months ago. He has already received everything except the tank he wanted me to finish. As for the high elves that were sold. Twinner sold them to our store for painting credit which he still has. If you sell something to a store that is in turn going to resell it, you can't change your mind. There are no refunds on that kind if thing. How could you possible go to a pawn store give them something then get mad months later when you say you want your stuff back and they say they sold it. As for the work load, I have no issue painting huge commissions. I have completed hundreds of commissions much larger then these on time many times. We just have issues with these few guys. I've painted over 100 miniatures just this week. Problem is that everyone keeps talking, no one knows the truth. Everyone has a half story and the ones that think they have the story don't even know what I still have or don't
-------------------------------------------------------
"He died because he had no honor. He had no honor and the Emperor was watching."
Saying: 'It's no big deal, I took money, goods and made a business arrangement. I have failed to live up to my end 100% for 6 months, refused to return or produce the goods or money, fallen out of contact for very long stretches, and all I can offer now is the same promises I have broken 20 times already. What is the problem?' is not a solution I would be willing to accept at this point. If it was reversed, would you?
What you have done will at the very least carry liability in small claims, whether you like it or not, you have done wrong here and have caused quantifiable financial damage and hardship to your clientele. Fortunately, it's not up to you to decide if it's a big deal, or if it is illegal. We have the law to do that, so this is why I say skip the middle man and find out where you really stand instead of engaging in conjecture. Unless you were fully incorporated, bankruptcy won't help you out either, you, and your personal possesions and money are directly liable, business still existing or not.
I figure you better start tangibly making right with all these people, absolutely immediately, with pics of models, tracking numbers and bank refunds A.S.A.P or things could get very rough for you. You are completely and uniquely in control of resolving this situation without the need for legal intervention. If it is going to be fixed without the law, then only you are capable of doing that, and there is no reason in the world you should expect someone who has been waiting 6 months to wait longer.
All IMHO. But we've seen this scenario play out before with others, some intentionally, some not. But whether you meant to or not, a scam is a scam, and when you take money and don't give back what you promised when you promised it, from multiple people, that's called a scam.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/04/23 19:39:13
You realize that claiming bankruptcy does not excuse your debts, right? It isn't a get out of debt free card. It simply means that banks are going to get involved in sorting out your debts and finances.
Or like on said I claim bankruptcy tomorrow and erase all this from my memory. Start fresh. You are making this harder. I've given up on this name a long time ago. At this point I'm just trying to get everyone everything before I have to close. Which in turn means all money will be gone.
Ah, more attempts at dodging your responsibility and projecting it unto anybody but you. Who'd have thunk it?
-------------------------------------------------------
"He died because he had no honor. He had no honor and the Emperor was watching."
@Battlegrounds: I read the transcript, multiple times you were asked outright to return things with absolutely no ambiguity, you said no. Looks like you just wore him down into 'choosing' the only actual hope of an option you left open for him to get anything back no? That's not much of a choice in my eyes.
Anyways, @Twinner I have stated what I would do in your shoes, no real need to go on on my part. I wish all parties good luck, hopefully this can be resolved fully and shortly. That being said, if nothing happens, then you should look out for yourself and get the ball rolling on making a claim for your money and goods back legally. If there isn't a legal problem here, then nothing will happen. But if there is, you will be afforded a bit of safety and have a trail of accountability with the small claims court to actually get a judgement. It's not 'no big deal' when someone takes your money and property and doesn't live up to their end. It most certainly is a big deal.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/04/23 19:46:46
Legion: Dark Angels 
8.200 
3.300 
3.100 
5.500 
2.500 
3.200 
3.000
" - Rick Priestley "I've decided that I'd rather not have you as a member of TMP." - Editor, The Miniatures Page "I'd rather put my testicles through a mangle than spend any time gaming with you." - Richard, TooFatLardies "We need a Doug Craig in every store." - Warlord Games "Thank you for being here, Judge Doug!" - Adam Troke 
