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 MWHistorian wrote:

 Kirasu wrote:
To me it's about how a company treats their customers. Yes, GW has terrible rules and hgh prices but what really gets me is that it's become apparent in the last few years that at BEST they think nothing of their customers or fans and at worse they have active contempt for them.

That's what really turned me away from GW

Same here. I can look over a lot, but I can't look over that.

That feeling when you're trying to justify to your wallet to buy a new box of minis, and then GW simultaneously converts to a cheaper method of production and raises prices across the board.

And thereafter considers a change of box art worthy of a 5-10% price hike.

Started in 5th ed when the Black reach starter was on $50. Played plenty of games at home, LGS and tournies.
6th comes around and I keep playing, but rules + WAACCAH = no fun.
7th come out 22 months later, I read the rules and "DEEP SIX" them.

Playing Dropzone commander now . If you want a game with a solid no swiss cheese holes in it to exploit = try dropzone commander (DzC). Plus hawk wargames has great online support for the game.

I was introduced to 40k at the end of 2nd edition. I started playing in 3rd ed, and played all the way through until I started to taper off in 5th. Played maybe three games of 6th and was not impressed. In between the editions I also started to play Warhammer Fantasy around the time the Lizardmen first came out. I also had some Skaven that I looted from my brother. Stopped playing Fantasy around 7th ed I think , shortly after the new book came out that got rid of the special spawnings . I also started playing Flames of War British infantry company, For King and Country! Whichever edition that was.

I have bought a lot of 40k, Fantasy and Flames of War, although I for the most part stopped play Warhammer, I still collected a lot of models. I now vow to not buy GW anymore (it won’t last, I keep making up excuses ) simply because over the years I have seen a slight quality drop and a major price increase. Plus the short turnaround from 6th to 7th, they started to release sloppy rules adding super heavies and D weapons into normal games, and over all silly things. This is where some of the excuses come in, I am going to buy some misc boxes of guard and empire to build three warbands for Necromunda and I am also going to build a 30k army. Hay, its Forge World, not GW .

We now try to get games in every other Friday. We play mostly FoW, FoW Vietnam, X-Wing, some Force on Force and Battlefleet Gothic. I got a Necromunda book for 4 bucks at the FLGS so I am going to build up some gangs for us to play with, to further break up the game cycle. I also hoping we can start playing so old hammer, go back to the 5th ed 40k rules.

I have looked into some other games but none of them really intrigue me. Plus we don’t have a very large playing group here so most games would just be with my brother and friend. I’m not really into the other models like Infinity and Malifaux so I’m just going to stay away from them. I do like the Warmachine models but the other two really aren’t into it all that much. On the other hand me and my brother are considering Dust miniatures, they look exciting!

 Selym wrote:

Spoiler:

 MWHistorian wrote:

 Kirasu wrote:
To me it's about how a company treats their customers. Yes, GW has terrible rules and hgh prices but what really gets me is that it's become apparent in the last few years that at BEST they think nothing of their customers or fans and at worse they have active contempt for them.

That's what really turned me away from GW

Same here. I can look over a lot, but I can't look over that.

That feeling when you're trying to justify to your wallet to buy a new box of minis, and then GW simultaneously converts to a cheaper method of production and raises prices across the board.

And thereafter considers a change of box art worthy of a 5-10% price hike.

Aston Martins are built using Ford Mondeo/Vauxhall Vectra parts and you pay a premium for AMs! Not sticking up for GW there, just pointing out driving down costs whilst inflating profits isn't a purely GW symptom.

 monders wrote:

Aston Martins are built using Ford Mondeo/Vauxhall Vectra parts and you pay a premium for AMs! Not sticking up for GW there, just pointing out driving down costs whilst inflating profits isn't a purely GW symptom.

And why should we care what another company with a completely different business model does or doesn't do?

 monders wrote:

Aston Martins are built using Ford Mondeo/Vauxhall Vectra parts and you pay a premium for AMs! Not sticking up for GW there, just pointing out driving down costs whilst inflating profits isn't a purely GW symptom.

Because there's a lot more to an Aston Martin than just making a Mondeo and adding a new badge. They tried that with the Cygnet (Toyota IQ) and it didn't go down well. Whilst AM's use Ford parts, it's entirely re-engineered where needed. There's no point re-tooling for components if you have access to suitable components already, it saves you money and time to focus on the value add stuff.

I have not left GW for good, I don't think. The Ork Codex has, however, been the final nail in the coffin of my purchasing for the immediate future.

I still intend to build and paint what I have in spare time and enjoy that part of my collection as much as possible.

The wife and I are about to get into Star Trek Attack Wing, which will, from all I am reading, provide a much better gateway drug to wargaming for her than 40k was doing (so many books and minor rules she became quickly uninspired, along with her growing resentment of how much of our money it eats). She will be starting a Dominion fleet and I'll be bringing Romulans.
It goes to show the level of nerd I am that I am already sourcing minis for more correct scale for home games and working out alternative minis for timeline inaccurate models (we want to bring DS9 era fleets).

Also my love of fishkeeping is calling me back in a big way and I'm attempting to secure a 180gallon tank 2nd hand atm, which will be all sorts of money sink unto it's self, at least initially.

 monders wrote:


Aston Martins are built using Ford Mondeo/Vauxhall Vectra parts and you pay a premium for AMs! Not sticking up for GW there, just pointing out driving down costs whilst inflating profits isn't a purely GW symptom.

My Jag is also made from some Mondeo parts. Find me a production model Mondeo that is as comfortable, or as quick as my Jag, and I'll sell all my other games systems and play 40k exclusively...

An X-Type?

Cars are made of all sorts of parts. I had a Wolseley 1500 once and was surprised to find the suspensions were from MG.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
An X-Type?

Cars are made of all sorts of parts. I had a Wolseley 1500 once and was surprised to find the suspensions were from MG.

Most likely. I got one and it's great. But then Mondeos are pretty good to begin with and from what I can gather the X-Type is something like 90% re-engineered. Even if it's using Mondeo parts it's a very different beast.

It's worth noting that the Mondeo ST220 is probably faster than the X-Type 3.0 V6, but the rest of them won't be as fast as the Jag equivalents, or as luxurious. Or have 4x4

Aye, an X type. Great fun motor. Not come across the ST220, but I'm nae selling my stuff.

I enjoy burning off the boy racers in my 'old man' car. All below 70 mph and legal of course.

 Eggs wrote:

I enjoy burning off the boy racers in my 'old man' car. All below 70 mph and legal of course.

I do the same in my Audi Ohh, and because I'm near a US military installation, I "get" the privilege of showing all those morons who dump 30-50k into a Mustang, Camaro or some other Pony car, that they ain't very special

Guys, please take discussion of automobiles to the Off Topic sub-forum. Thanks!

Have gotten into a lot of heated discussions with people in this thread! Despite the fact that I think a lot of the criticism of GW on the forums is unjustified, I do think there are a couple of problems which have led to me looking at alternatives [so far X-Wing and Infinity].

The first big issue for me is the IGOUGO system. I find it very difficult to immerse myself in the narrative when I could walk the dog, have a cigarette, and come back without it influencing the game. Horde armies only exacerbate this problem.

The second is the amount of time it takes to play. I've played a number of 7 or 8 hour games, and I'll be honest, by the end I just want the game to finish, win or lose. 3 hours is about the sweet spot for me, any more and I'm brain-dead for 48 hours afterwards.

So, partially left GW [although it is very difficult to get a game of Infinity/X-Wing], and still flirting with a few game systems,

When I first started dabbling in x wing, I had no opponents apart from the wife. A post on dakka, and a search on Facebook turned up enough local opponents to start up a 12 person league, with one around the corner!

A little bit of legwork went a very long way for me. Hope you find some opponents. I'm finding the game a breath of fresh air.

 tyrannosaurus wrote:
The first big issue for me is the IGOUGO system. I find it very difficult to immerse myself in the narrative when I could walk the dog, have a cigarette, and come back without it influencing the game. Horde armies only exacerbate this problem.

The second is the amount of time it takes to play. I've played a number of 7 or 8 hour games, and I'll be honest, by the end I just want the game to finish, win or lose. 3 hours is about the sweet spot for me, any more and I'm brain-dead for 48 hours afterwards.

Both large problems with enjoying the game for sure. Systems like deadzones limited activations per player until all units have been activated is much more engaging. The rapid turns of Dreadball is really engaging. 15-20 minute games of Dreadball let you smash out a few, trying different teams and tactics without a loss of tactical depth. Both games scale from one to 6 or so player with no problems, but of course an increase in time required that's well worth it.

A while ago some of us were working on a Deadzone 40K conversion... I let my involvement lapse due to health issues that I hope to resolve soon, but if we ever get it finished it will be a great way to play 40k at the skirmish level. 40k is awesome, GWs tabletop rules are not.

Warpath v3? is coming out soon which will hopefully provide a nice, clean mass combat ruleset for us to use because there's definitely something to be said for large scale 28mm combat.

Make sure you don't discount the problems others have with the game just because you don't share them though. A little empathy goes a long way ; )

 Eggs wrote:
When I first started dabbling in x wing, I had no opponents apart from the wife. A post on dakka, and a search on Facebook turned up enough local opponents to start up a 12 person league, with one around the corner!

A little bit of legwork went a very long way for me. Hope you find some opponents. I'm finding the game a breath of fresh air.

Yep forums are how I've found gamers to play with, along with recruiting IRL and PC gamer friends. The smaller games like Dreadball and Deadzone, X-wing no doubt too are so much easier to sell people on. The dakka player finder sounds good, but thankfully my state has it's own tabletop forum that's very active, managing multiple groups, interaction from shops and so on so that's been great. Not a dig at those that enjoy gaming in shops, but it's really not my thing - I much prefer clubs and games organised online to be played at houses. More relaxed, easier to organise etc.

 Yonan wrote:

 tyrannosaurus wrote:
The first big issue for me is the IGOUGO system. I find it very difficult to immerse myself in the narrative when I could walk the dog, have a cigarette, and come back without it influencing the game. Horde armies only exacerbate this problem.

The second is the amount of time it takes to play. I've played a number of 7 or 8 hour games, and I'll be honest, by the end I just want the game to finish, win or lose. 3 hours is about the sweet spot for me, any more and I'm brain-dead for 48 hours afterwards.

Both large problems with enjoying the game for sure. Systems like deadzones limited activations per player until all units have been activated is much more engaging. The rapid turns of Dreadball is really engaging. 15-20 minute games of Dreadball let you smash out a few, trying different teams and tactics without a loss of tactical depth. Both games scale from one to 6 or so player with no problems, but of course an increase in time required that's well worth it.

This is a similar situation to Malifaux and Helldorado... In Helldorado especially, how you do from Turn 1, affects the initiative phase of Turn 2, and Turn 2 goes to 3, etc. Beyond turn 1, the initiative can shift wildly, depending on your actions, etc. Malifaux is fairly similar in that there's no real "set" order of play, the person who got the better initiative and went first will always go first, and each player alternates actions until all models have been activated.

For me IGOUGO is not inherently bad as long as a) one turn's worth of movements can't significantly cripple an enemy without a chance of them fighting back and b) one turn won't take one million years to finish.

Although I still prefer Infinity's ARO approach.

IGOUGO has the advantage of simplicity, though given the amount of complexity in a lot of the rest of the rules, I suspect it is there because the designers in 1980 could not think of anything better.

There are many other games which use IGOUGO. Often they mix up the turn sequence with things like charge reactions and defensive firing, which prevent it belonging all to the phasing player. Fantasy and 40K have incorporated some of these ideas in recent editions.

A skirmish level game however is arguably more suitable to use the kind of card activation system used in various historical wargames. It would be easy to introduce it as an option. There are a number of different ways of using the basic idea.

The Maelstrom cards are a nod in that direction. They allow the player to game the objectives rather than the unit tactics. I do not think that approach suits a short, skirmish level game.

 Ensis Ferrae wrote:
Malifaux is fairly similar in that there's no real "set" order of play, the person who got the better initiative and went first will always go first, and each player alternates actions until all models have been activated.

In Malifaux Initiative is flipped for each turn, so there's no guarantee who goes first. You can burn a soul stone to cheap the initiative flip if you really want first activation though.

Even then, with the alternating activations you're never waiting long between actions, and you can easily spend most of that time thinking about what you're going to do next anyway as there's always a lot going on.

Ensis Ferrae wrote:
This is a similar situation to Malifaux and Helldorado... In Helldorado especially, how you do from Turn 1, affects the initiative phase of Turn 2, and Turn 2 goes to 3, etc. Beyond turn 1, the initiative can shift wildly, depending on your actions, etc. Malifaux is fairly similar in that there's no real "set" order of play, the person who got the better initiative and went first will always go first, and each player alternates actions until all models have been activated.

heartserenade wrote:For me IGOUGO is not inherently bad as long as a) one turn's worth of movements can't significantly cripple an enemy without a chance of them fighting back and b) one turn won't take one million years to finish.

Although I still prefer Infinity's ARO approach.

Kilkrazy wrote:IGOUGO has the advantage of simplicity, though given the amount of complexity in a lot of the rest of the rules, I suspect it is there because the designers in 1980 could not think of anything better.

There are many other games which use IGOUGO. Often they mix up the turn sequence with things like charge reactions and defensive firing, which prevent it belonging all to the phasing player. Fantasy and 40K have incorporated some of these ideas in recent editions.

I've found that all activation mechanics have their place if they serve the objective of the rules.
-For a Fast Play game like KoW, that also has a damage accumulation system for units and no casualty removal, a very strict IGOUGO speeds up the game while not giving the starting player too much of an advantage.
-For a skirmish game like SBH, IGOUGO is used, but the gambling activation mechanic makes it less certain and it doesn't overly slant the advantage.
-WM has a smaller number of units and many of them are quite powerfull, so "alternating activation" keeps things a bit more balanced.
-Various games use card activation. I can't speak to many of them directly, but it is a way of keeping players on their toes and making in-the-moment decisions count as much as overall strategies or listbuilding.
-Lastly, reaction mechanics such as 5150 or Tomorrow's War are designed to make players both think far ahead in terms of strategy as well as to take a lot of the results out of the hands of the player and more accurately simulate the chaos of battle.

There are others, and they all have their place. I think the only bad reaction system is one that doesn't serve the game. The other problem we face is that many folks think a given rulset's activation mechanic is bad, when it's really just not their style. Many folks don't like games that take away some of their decision making, and some don't like games that put as much emphasis on list-building as in-game-strategy. Sometimes the game is truly flawed, but in many (perhaps most?) cases it's just not your style of game.

The above is why I'm such a strong advocate of not staying within the boundaries that any game company sets. If you like the models and fluff, but not the rules, find some rules that better fit your playsyle. If you love the rules, but not the models, choose your own. Etc, etc. As long as you can find some like-minded gamers (I realize this is difficult) you don't have to buy the whole package.

text removed.

reds8n

Heavy Metal wrote:
I see after taking a haitus from this forum it has not learned to pull its head out of its ass and only grown to have similar toxicity levels as League of Legends communities.

Tsk, tsk, tsk.

Maybe you have the wrong thread? I don't see any toxicity here. I see a lot of positive conversation about games we love...and one we want to love. Valid criticism isn't toxic. In fact, there hasn't been any negativity on this thread until you came along and insulted everyone. Well done.

Heavy Metal wrote:
I see after taking a haitus from this forum it has not learned to pull its head out of its ass and only grown to have similar toxicity levels as League of Legends communities.

Tsk, tsk, tsk.

To your right are two features you might fine handy; The Ignore feature and the Alert Mod button.

Only one person in this thread has been rude.

Very true, I thought he might like to talk to a Mod since people enjoying other games is "Toxic" to him.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I started wargaming in 1994 when I picked up the 40k 2nd edition box. I think for me, I've never really like the background of the game. I think I loved the idea of 40k much more than the reality. So I've had a long and sometimes torturous relationship with this game. I haven't quit just yet, but I'm going to get rid of a lot of my extra stuff. I figure one army for each GW game will be sufficient in the future. I'm going to stop playing, more than actually quit the game. It will be fairly easy since most of my group has already stopped playing.

Where I'm going:

All Quiet on the Martian Front: I jumped in on the Kickstarter and it has proven to be a lot of fun so far. I've mainly been doing demo games for my friends.

Drop Zone Commander: I haven't been able to get many games in so far, but I really like it. The starter set is great.

Hordes: I've had Trollbloods for a while. I kind of consider myself a "fluff" gamer because always pick my Warlock based on story over rules, because I just love Gunbjorn. I have several of the other Warlocks, but I never seem to get around to them.

I also play: Flames of War, DUST Warfare, Bolt Action, SAGA, & Black Powder.

It really is a great time for alternative war games.

Heavy Metal wrote:
I see after taking a haitus from this forum it has not learned to pull its head out of its ass and only grown to have similar toxicity levels as League of Legends communities.

Tsk, tsk, tsk.

I think you should be stripped of your user name...

Also, believe that comparing the Dakka community to League of Legends is mentioned specifically in the forum rules as an instant banning offence?

Shall we make a collective positive effort to get back on topic?

Do non-wargaming stuff count? Because now i'm spending things on other hobbies that are used to be reserved for 40k, since I don't need to spend much on the other wargames. Nowadays I'm taking up archery and boxing so my hobby money now goes to making my bow more expensive.

Well this is kind of a wargames forum so probably people are not so interested in your spending on archery. (I arched at university for a few years. Fun sport.)

You can air that kind of stuff in the OT Forum if you like.