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 Vaktathi wrote:
So...out of this entire thread, every single post has simply been to "make them crap" or "ban them".

Methinks you're either willfully ignoring what people are posting, or are are simply trolling. The vast majority of these suggestions would simply take the Eldar codex *mostly* back to it's 6E incarnation, which was still at damn near the top of the power pyramid.

There's a huge number of highly unnecessary buffs, and many made for completely non-gameplay related reasons, as explained earlier regarding jetbikes.

No, I'm the one who'e trolling this thread. Dman137 is just providing his insightful and constructive input into the balance problems in the Eldar codex.

Do you know why people spammed Wave Serpents in the last codex, aside form the Serpent Shield being OP? It's because many of the other units were simply sub-optimal and didn't measure up. Why take the Avatar of Khaine or a Phoenix Lord when you could just take a cheap Autarch to spam more Wave Serpents? Why take Aspect Warriors when Wraithguard with D-Scythes were so much better? Why take special characters when you could just spam a Seer Council?

With the buffs to Aspect Warriors and the associated formations, people now have a reason to take Aspect Warriors and alternate HQ units (inb4 Ghazkuul complains about Jain Zar again). Unfortunately, all or this is overshadowed by Wraithknights, D-Weapons, and Scatbikers. Tone down and eliminate those, and the Eldar codex stars to appear balanced, at least by post-Necron standards.

 TheNewBlood wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
So...out of this entire thread, every single post has simply been to "make them crap" or "ban them".

Methinks you're either willfully ignoring what people are posting, or are are simply trolling. The vast majority of these suggestions would simply take the Eldar codex *mostly* back to it's 6E incarnation, which was still at damn near the top of the power pyramid.

There's a huge number of highly unnecessary buffs, and many made for completely non-gameplay related reasons, as explained earlier regarding jetbikes.

No, I'm the one who'e trolling this thread. Dman137 is just providing his insightful and constructive input into the balance problems in the Eldar codex.

Do you know why people spammed Wave Serpents in the last codex, aside form the Serpent Shield being OP? It's because many of the other units were simply sub-optimal and didn't measure up. Why take the Avatar of Khaine or a Phoenix Lord when you could just take a cheap Autarch to spam more Wave Serpents? Why take Aspect Warriors when Wraithguard with D-Scythes were so much better? Why take special characters when you could just spam a Seer Council?

A lot of these weren't necessarily problems with things like Aspect Warriors being bad (though a few were, and the worst off ones still largely are, and are so because of larger reasons largely related to the core rules), as with other units simply being over the top good.

As is, they just made things like Wraithguard even better on top of it.

I don't see any (major) impetus to nerf things like the Avatar or Phoenix Lords.

With the buffs to Aspect Warriors and the associated formations, people now have a reason to take Aspect Warriors and alternate HQ units (inb4 Ghazkuul complains about Jain Zar again). Unfortunately, all or this is overshadowed by Wraithknights, D-Weapons, and Scatbikers. Tone down and eliminate those, and the Eldar codex stars to appear balanced, at least by post-Necron standards.

Well, that's a nebulous area. I don't think any of the 2015 books are particularly well balanced. To be perfectly frank, there's no way I'm ever going to be convinced that BS5 "AP0" Fire Dragons for 22pts a piece are "balanced" when they're one-shotting tanks at the same rate D-Weapons do, and at double the rate of something like an IG melta-vet or combi-melta Sternguard.

DMan137, just justify this for me please:

As a core troops choice you can take a unit of up to 10 models which can move 12", skip over terrain, is relentless, can all mount some of the best Heavy Weapons in the game and can move in the Assault phase too. And you think this is balanced reasonable and fair?

 master of ordinance wrote:
DMan137, just justify this for me please:

As a core troops choice you can take a unit of up to 10 models which can move 12", skip over terrain, is relentless, can all mount some of the best Heavy Weapons in the game and can move in the Assault phase too. And you think this is balanced reasonable and fair?

In the current meta yes, with SM getting so many tanks and necrons being next to impossible to kill, you need all the fire power you can get.

 Ghazkuul wrote:
Jetbikes, Move them to FA, 1 in 3 Heavy weapons, reduce Armor save to 4+.

WK: Remove Strength D weapons, they have no place in 40k. 100pt increase MINIMUM. MC not Gargantuan.

Firedragons or whatever the feth they are called: They are melta not super fething melta, AP1 not AP0.

Not allowed to ally with DE because it doesnt make any fething sense.

All Eldar Units have a 5-10% increase in cost.

Exarchs 1 W, not 2.

Wraith: no D scythes here either, no place in 40k.

Phoenix Lords: Fine, they can be this completely OP im ok with that, but they cost an extra 30-50pts each.

Jetbikes: I'm actually against you on that one, it's like the dark Angels loss of ability to do their theme, or the White scars to do theirs. Plus that people take it from the formation anyway, I suggest making it 1 for every 3 and gaining a special rule where they can't take a compulsory troop choice as a unit of 3. The armour save though is warranted, their not space marines, they're eldar, also WS,BS 3.

WK: quite frankly i disagree, it's either rid of the gargantuan and reinstate distort for wraith-cannon and sword (but stay at 300) or up the points by 80 (not 100 since the loss of the distort) but make the default the sword + shield and the main cannon for a additional 10.

Aspect & exarcs: FD's lose ap0 gain tank hunter and immunity to splosions, exarch gains ap0 but costs 20
WS's flickerjump only used 1once during the enemies shooting phase, exarch is 20
SS's gain rending on lances, lose underslung gun but retain 3+ save, exarch is 20
HB's mirrorswords on exarch gain ap2, acrobatic gives ability to assault from transports (moving restrictions) exarch is 20
DR's exarch becomes 20 points
SS's exarch is 20 points if it's not already the claw becoms specialist
SH's exarch is 20 points, jink allowed against attack on flyer,
Spectres need serious fix, I've already sent FW an email and elicited the "homebrew" it response
DE no longer battle brothers

D-scythes change to 1-5 like a flamer in a squad, both cannon and flamer change to back to distort.
Phoenix lords: Woah, Woah, Woah quite frankly I want to tell you to off, but I'm more civilised. They should all gain the special rule : 1 Cad. all gain an invulnerable save, (Asurman changes to 3++ and re-roll saves of 1 warlord trait), Jain zar retains the ability to disarm but only in the first turn and the Int and WS penalty is decreased to -3. Karandras gains the bonus attacks rule, Fuegan gains tank hunter and an extra shot, baharroth sword changes to ap2 with +1 str. All lords allow aspect troops and fearless on that troop plus a 20-30 point increase along with stat increases, why they aren't on par with a generic DE succubus confuses me.

Blade storm changes to +1 shots if battle focus running isn't used, and the ability to rend on ap3 (DA keep their ap2)
Guardians + warwalkers: change back to WS,BS 3 these guys are militia and their stats should reflect it more
Farseers: go back to having to pay for runes, also fix the defensive runes(I.e old useful form but within a short radius)
Autarchs: the proclaimed master of strategy have little to prove it, impose a point increase and better their strategical abilities.
Yriel: this guys should be badass, give him the improved strat rules reflect his spear better than the weak thing it is and give the ability for a bike.
Eldrad: this guy is a psychic master, give him the improved runes and his redeploy rules and put him back up to the 220/230.
Illic: his sniper now wounds on a 3+ a generic vindicare shouldn't be better.
Rangers & pathfinders: long rifles rend on 5+ and wound on 3+ double points to be a pathfinder with shrouded and precision rules, Rangers to 13-16 points each.

As you guys can tell, I love my Phoenix lords and they DONT need any more time on the useless part of the codex section.
And all you guys saying to scrap the eldar book, quite frankly it's unfair, I love my aspect and Exodite force to bits and my PL's and avatar are some of my best models.

I want to point out again that of all the top-table builds at tournaments currently, Eldar are the only ones that can just take a CAD and roll with it and expect to do well.

Everyone else needs multiple detachments to abuse ally interactions or spam a non-troop, free point summons, all aerial lists to invalidate 90% of enemy shooting, rerollable 2++, invisibility, or formations with other silly bonuses in line with the rest of this junk.

Literally no other army can walk into a big event and say "oh I just brought a single CAD" and expect to do as well as they do.

If it wasn't for how ridiculously good eldar unit quality is, we could just nix all formations and the other silly stuff from paragraph 2 above and be back to a somewhat balanced game. As is though, if we just got rid of all that without doing anything about eldar, they would go unopposed atop their throne of power.

Also after thinking a bit, I think starting with:
Bikes: +5 points
Scatter lasers: +5 points
Wraithknight: +100 points, must be 25% covered for cover save a la vehicle rules.
Fire dragons: lose +1 vehicle damage chart
Warp spiders: -1 str on shots, 1 warp jump per game turn TOTAL. IE no reactive jumps if you jumped on your turn.
Powers: limit fortune to 5 rerolls/turn, and only targets psyker and his unit, remove apoc size blast option from the blast power.

I bet with those in place, eldar wouldn't be nearly as hated, and armies could put up a much better fight with just unit quality and not relying on broken force multipliers like some of the ridic formations.

Dman137 wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
DMan137, just justify this for me please:

As a core troops choice you can take a unit of up to 10 models which can move 12", skip over terrain, is relentless, can all mount some of the best Heavy Weapons in the game and can move in the Assault phase too. And you think this is balanced reasonable and fair?

In the current meta yes, with SM getting so many tanks and necrons being next to impossible to kill, you need all the fire power you can get.

So you actually think that 10 12" plus assault move relentless heavy weapons are fair?

Welcome to eldar players. And you thought sm were bad.

Indeed. I am beginning to think SM players may not be the worst...

 master of ordinance wrote:
Indeed. I am beginning to think SM players may not be the worst...

Well Space Marine players are certainly bad. We just have to accept that they're the lesser of two evils.

I play chaos

 Konrax wrote:
I play chaos

*sniff* *sniff*
Smells like Heresy

point re-balancing on the hugely under costed models. A reworking of scatter bike spam, maybe 1 in 3?

maybe one day they will change it back to 1-3 heavy weapons but until then I'm going to enjoy my 30+ scattbikes, picked up a few more the other day.

 Brennonjw wrote:
point re-balancing on the hugely under costed models. A reworking of scatter bike spam, maybe 1 in 3?

For a troops choice 1 in 5 is more than enough.

Removal or severe pints increase of the Wraith Brigade and its corresponding D spam.

 master of ordinance wrote:

 Konrax wrote:
I play chaos

*sniff* *sniff*
Smells like Heresy

Don't worry it's Alpha Legion and tzeentch, were the good bad good bad bad guys

 master of ordinance wrote:

 Brennonjw wrote:
point re-balancing on the hugely under costed models. A reworking of scatter bike spam, maybe 1 in 3?

For a troops choice 1 in 5 is more than enough.

Removal or severe pints increase of the Wraith Brigade and its corresponding D spam.

Make bikes worse then they were before this codex lol

 hiveof_chimera wrote:

 Ghazkuul wrote:
Jetbikes, Move them to FA, 1 in 3 Heavy weapons, reduce Armor save to 4+.

WK: Remove Strength D weapons, they have no place in 40k. 100pt increase MINIMUM. MC not Gargantuan.

Firedragons or whatever the feth they are called: They are melta not super fething melta, AP1 not AP0.

Not allowed to ally with DE because it doesnt make any fething sense.

All Eldar Units have a 5-10% increase in cost.

Exarchs 1 W, not 2.

Wraith: no D scythes here either, no place in 40k.

Phoenix Lords: Fine, they can be this completely OP im ok with that, but they cost an extra 30-50pts each.

Jetbikes: I'm actually against you on that one, it's like the dark Angels loss of ability to do their theme, or the White scars to do theirs. Plus that people take it from the formation anyway, I suggest making it 1 for every 3 and gaining a special rule where they can't take a compulsory troop choice as a unit of 3. The armour save though is warranted, their not space marines, they're eldar, also WS,BS 3.

WK: quite frankly i disagree, it's either rid of the gargantuan and reinstate distort for wraith-cannon and sword (but stay at 300) or up the points by 80 (not 100 since the loss of the distort) but make the default the sword + shield and the main cannon for a additional 10.

Aspect & exarcs: FD's lose ap0 gain tank hunter and immunity to splosions, exarch gains ap0 but costs 20
WS's flickerjump only used 1once during the enemies shooting phase, exarch is 20
SS's gain rending on lances, lose underslung gun but retain 3+ save, exarch is 20
HB's mirrorswords on exarch gain ap2, acrobatic gives ability to assault from transports (moving restrictions) exarch is 20
DR's exarch becomes 20 points
SS's exarch is 20 points if it's not already the claw becoms specialist
SH's exarch is 20 points, jink allowed against attack on flyer,
Spectres need serious fix, I've already sent FW an email and elicited the "homebrew" it response
DE no longer battle brothers

D-scythes change to 1-5 like a flamer in a squad, both cannon and flamer change to back to distort.
Phoenix lords: Woah, Woah, Woah quite frankly I want to tell you to off, but I'm more civilised. They should all gain the special rule : 1 Cad. all gain an invulnerable save, (Asurman changes to 3++ and re-roll saves of 1 warlord trait), Jain zar retains the ability to disarm but only in the first turn and the Int and WS penalty is decreased to -3. Karandras gains the bonus attacks rule, Fuegan gains tank hunter and an extra shot, baharroth sword changes to ap2 with +1 str. All lords allow aspect troops and fearless on that troop plus a 20-30 point increase along with stat increases, why they aren't on par with a generic DE succubus confuses me.

Blade storm changes to +1 shots if battle focus running isn't used, and the ability to rend on ap3 (DA keep their ap2)
Guardians + warwalkers: change back to WS,BS 3 these guys are militia and their stats should reflect it more
Farseers: go back to having to pay for runes, also fix the defensive runes(I.e old useful form but within a short radius)
Autarchs: the proclaimed master of strategy have little to prove it, impose a point increase and better their strategical abilities.
Yriel: this guys should be badass, give him the improved strat rules reflect his spear better than the weak thing it is and give the ability for a bike.
Eldrad: this guy is a psychic master, give him the improved runes and his redeploy rules and put him back up to the 220/230.
Illic: his sniper now wounds on a 3+ a generic vindicare shouldn't be better.
Rangers & pathfinders: long rifles rend on 5+ and wound on 3+ double points to be a pathfinder with shrouded and precision rules, Rangers to 13-16 points each.

As you guys can tell, I love my Phoenix lords and they DONT need any more time on the useless part of the codex section.
And all you guys saying to scrap the eldar book, quite frankly it's unfair, I love my aspect and Exodite force to bits and my PL's and avatar are some of my best models.

I actually agree with a lot of what you're saying.

WK should be Gargantuan. The model is HUGE. It just needs to be priced accordingly.
With the Exarchs, I think 15 points is enough. They're not good enough to be priced 20 points, the only time people would take them is for the Aspect Host. I see no reason a Scorpion's Claw should be nerfed, the thing is 30 points and assault is weak enough as it is. The only real assault units worth a damn right now are coming off assault transports, or are fast (Thunderwolves, beasts, etc.). Scorpions are neither.

I think the game wants to move away from assaulting from transports and I think that's okay, but Banshees seriously need some oomph. They need to be at least as fast as beasts to be worth a damn especially since they don't hit particularly hard anyway. I think they need to be able to strike first like they used to be able to, maybe via a -2 to initiative, and be able to run and charge. Acrobatic still let's them add +3 to run distance but not to charge. Swooping Hawks don't really need a change, their attack is actually pretty hard to land and they're pretty squishy.

Shining Spears is an interesting unit. I think the only niche left to be filled is a CC AP2. No one uses them right now because they're pretty bad compared to shooting. Give them just a flat AP2 and Hit and Run and I think they'll be decent.

Formation wise, give Guardians back their +1 to BS and WS if in a Guardian Host, to represent Ulthwe Black Hosts. If Jetbikes are BS3, I think they can stay at 17 points, just make scatter lasers +15 points instead, and let them get BS4 with a new Windrider formation (with additional tax units, e.g. more Vypers, mandatory Shining Spears, etc.). 32 point BS3 Scatter Lasers on Jetbikes isn't very scary.

I think people knee jerk a lot on Eldar. Barebones, there's only a few problem units. Scatterbikes, Wraithknight, PERHAPS Wraithguard. Those are the big things. If the WK was 400 points and Scatter bikes were nerfed (e.g. back to 1 in 3, with scatter lasers costing +15 points), WG were say 50 points base, with 60 for D-scythes, you'd instantly balance Eldar, regardless of the big scary D. Seriously, whoever thinks battle focus is a problem needs to re-evaluate...everything. If there was a massive rebalance for ALL the high powered codexes, such as Space Marines and Necrons, then yes maybe a few other things need tweaking, but nothing else in the eldar codex is overpowered. People here call for nerfs on things like Striking Scorpions and I'm like, really? Who thinks Scorpions are OP?

Tau are coming in a few months now. With codex creep all codices will improve, maybe not to Eldar levels but to better contest each other. Like I said, there's only really 2 major things in the Eldar codex that need fixing.

 krodarklorr wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
Indeed. I am beginning to think SM players may not be the worst...

Well Space Marine players are certainly bad. We just have to accept that they're the lesser of two evils.

Why are you effectively labeling all marine players as whiny bitches?

And then effectively calling all eldar players power gamers?

Sounds to me like YOU have a chip on your shoulder. Wanna hug it out bud?

 Formosa wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
Indeed. I am beginning to think SM players may not be the worst...

Well Space Marine players are certainly bad. We just have to accept that they're the lesser of two evils.

Why are you effectively labeling all marine players as whiny bitches?

And then effectively calling all eldar players power gamers?

Sounds to me like YOU have a chip on your shoulder. Wanna hug it out bud?

I mean, most SM players I've known complain about their book...a lot.

niv-mizzet wrote:
I want to point out again that of all the top-table builds at tournaments currently, Eldar are the only ones that can just take a CAD and roll with it and expect to do well.

Everyone else needs multiple detachments to abuse ally interactions or spam a non-troop, free point summons, all aerial lists to invalidate 90% of enemy shooting, rerollable 2++, invisibility, or formations with other silly bonuses in line with the rest of this junk.

Literally no other army can walk into a big event and say "oh I just brought a single CAD" and expect to do as well as they do.

If it wasn't for how ridiculously good eldar unit quality is, we could just nix all formations and the other silly stuff from paragraph 2 above and be back to a somewhat balanced game. As is though, if we just got rid of all that without doing anything about eldar, they would go unopposed atop their throne of power.

Also after thinking a bit, I think starting with:
Bikes: +5 points
Scatter lasers: +5 points
Wraithknight: +100 points, must be 25% covered for cover save a la vehicle rules.
Fire dragons: lose +1 vehicle damage chart
Warp spiders: -1 str on shots, 1 warp jump per game turn TOTAL. IE no reactive jumps if you jumped on your turn.
Powers: limit fortune to 5 rerolls/turn, and only targets psyker and his unit, remove apoc size blast option from the blast power.

I bet with those in place, eldar wouldn't be nearly as hated, and armies could put up a much better fight with just unit quality and not relying on broken force multipliers like some of the ridic formations.

The reason people take a CAD with eldar is to spam Scatbikers as much as possible. Throw in a Seer Council on Jetbikes and a Wraithknight and you're golden. I can guarantee you that if you take away the Eldar's power to abuse the CAD, all you'll see is a lot more Aspect Hosts, especially now that ITC allows a single duplicate formation.

The problem with Scatbikers isn't just their cost, it's the sheer number of shots they put out. Make them 27 points base, increase the Scatter Laser by 5 points, and limit heavy weapons to 1 in 3 and they suddenly start to look more balanced.

I agree that superheavies need to follow the rules for cover like vehicles, not MCs. Letting a Wraithknight or an Imperial Knight "toe in" to cover is just dumb.

Fire Dragons and Warp Spiders are where I disagree. Fire Dragons have the extra +1 on damage tables because its all they can do. Sternguard have specialist ammo, Command Squads can mix-and-match ans take power weapons. Fire Dragons have a meltagun, melta bombs, and nothing else on a T3 body. Let's also not forget that back in 6th edition any meltagun had a 50/50 chance of instakilling a vehicle. Warp Spiders are slightly undercosted, and should probably be 22 points a model. S6 is necessary to let them be a threat to vehicle side armour. I can agree on not letting them Flickerjump if they used their warp jump generators in the movement phase.

Here's an easier fix for Fortune: only let it target a unit other than the one that is attempting to manifest the power. Now you need two really expensive deathstars to get the most out of Fortune. I also agree about getting rid of the Apoc blast on Eldrich Storm, as the power is good enough already.

Dman137 wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

 Brennonjw wrote:
point re-balancing on the hugely under costed models. A reworking of scatter bike spam, maybe 1 in 3?

For a troops choice 1 in 5 is more than enough.

Removal or severe pints increase of the Wraith Brigade and its corresponding D spam.

Make bikes worse then they were before this codex lol

Im sorry, having stupid amounts of manoeuvrability and more firepower than any other troops choice in the game is not enough for you? Too bad because I am tired of seeing Eldar players with scatbike spam and the like rip other armies apart like they are nothing. 10 Bikers with insane manoeuvrability and more firepower than many Super Heavy vehicles whilst costing less than said SH's is stupid in itself but being able to take them as troops - now thats a whole new level of fethed up.

 krodarklorr wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
Indeed. I am beginning to think SM players may not be the worst...

Well Space Marine players are certainly bad. We just have to accept that they're the lesser of two evils.

This is where I finally have a sense of relief for spending an hour a night working on 1800 pts of fluffy and obscure IF successors in a CAD...

So, no thoughts on what I put in the first page? I've seen a lot of people here repeating parts of what I already do in my houserules...

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
So, no thoughts on what I put in the first page? I've seen a lot of people here repeating parts of what I already do in my houserules...

Maybe put them in the Proposed Rules section?

jwr wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
Indeed. I am beginning to think SM players may not be the worst...

Well Space Marine players are certainly bad. We just have to accept that they're the lesser of two evils.

This is where I finally have a sense of relief for spending an hour a night working on 1800 pts of fluffy and obscure IF successors in a CAD...

There was a hint of sarcasm in my post, and if you read above, you'll know that it mainly stems from all of the (vanilla) Space Marine players that I've seen.

What would you change in the eldar codex to make it balanced.?

Pretty much everything imo.

Newer codices utilizing their special formations might be able to compete with the eldar (and usually only these formation which is a problem in itself), but compared to any 6th edition codex the codex creep seen in the new eldar book is on a whole new level.

The whole game needs bringing down a level, but eldar are in need of it the most.

Sub 300 point T8 6W 3+ save GMC with D weaponry......lol.

Make the WK like 600 pts

Get rid of blade storm

Get rid of holo fields or make them one use only

Make that reroll in the psychic phase have some kind of drawback to it.

feth that book

Big Blind Bill wrote:

What would you change in the eldar codex to make it balanced.?

Pretty much everything imo.

Newer codices utilizing their special formations might be able to compete with the eldar (and usually only these formation which is a problem in itself), but compared to any 6th edition codex the codex creep seen in the new eldar book is on a whole new level.

The whole game needs bringing down a level, but eldar are in need of it the most.

Sub 300 point T8 6W 3+ save GMC with D weaponry......lol.

The biggest problems with Eldar are Scatbikers, D-Weapons, and the Wraithknight. Those are the things most in need of change. Fix those, and the book suddenly becomes much more balanced.

Las wrote:Make the WK like 600 pts

Get rid of blade storm

Get rid of holo fields or make them one use only

Make that reroll in the psychic phase have some kind of drawback to it.

feth that book

Considering that Imperial Knights are only around 350-450 points, 600 is a bit much.

Bladestorm can go away when grav and undercosted MCs go away.

Are you thinking of the Serpent Shield? They already made that one use only. And I don't think a 5++ save on a vehicle is that overpowered...

I suggested that Fortune cannot target the unit that attempted to manifest it. With that, Fortune bacomes powerful, but more situational.

Eldar have broken units, not a broken codex as a whole.

The only change I feel needs for the elder cidex is wraithknights are undercosted by 100points. That's all

I would like GW to clarify the warp spiders rules seems unintended for them to jump around a dozen times a turn but that's not a change.

I would like a global change to str d. A roll of 2-5 still d3 no pen table, roll of 6 is 3 hull and pen table no invul save. 6plus d6 and pen table is just broken when you put a 500+ model on table and it's gone in a single hit. It's also better for future str d weapons such as when forgeworld updates all thier distortion wpns to str d.

While eldar codex has a ton of strong units the only unit that is shown to be disgustingly broken in competetive play is wraith knight spam.