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I didn't say it was practical, just that it wouldn't shock me to see someone dressed in something like that (at a rave)

Or Mardi Gras in Rio

Pretty much. I mean, I'm the last person to adhere to "your character must be dressed practically or she's BAD!" I think that's silly. This is fiction, 'practical' is a fluid concept, and cool looking means more to me than practical, but some outfits are just ludicrous and I can not take them seriously.

At least design your sexy fan service characters in a way that we could actually believe someone will dress like that (fantasy stories not withstanding). Chun Li might look silly from a practical stand point, but she has a cool look, and it's unique and stands out. it's a nice design. Christie's outfit might be absurd for what she's doing, but at least it looks like it might actually be worn by someone some where.

 LordofHats wrote:
Pretty much. I mean, I'm the last person to adhere to "your character must be dressed practically or she's BAD!" I think that's silly. This is fiction, 'practical' is a fluid concept, and cool looking means more to me than practical, but some outfits are just ludicrous and I can not take them seriously.

At least design your sexy fan service characters in a way that we could actually believe someone will dress like that (fantasy stories not withstanding).

I clicked on the link in your signature, well played sir, well played *slow clap*

However yes, you can have characters in "sexy" outfits if it actually makes sense for them to be in that outfit.

Example of how not to do it: Quiet in the upcoming MGS5: The Phantom Pain.

There is no reason an assassin would ever dress as she does. It is impractical in pretty much every way. She's in the spoiler:Bear in mind most promo material has her using a Sniper Rifle (so no possibility of boob distraction) and that the game is set in Afghanistan. She'll burn to a frisp in the day before freezing to death at night.

Frankly a bit disappointing considering how well designed The Boss was in MGS3. Before her you had Sniper Wolf in MGS1 who admittedly had her jumpsuit partially unzipped but at least she had a jumpsuit to unzip. Then there was Olga in MGS2 who...well, nothing wrong with her outfit at all actually.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

I clicked on the link in your signature, well played sir, well played *slow clap*

You know, I actually clicked on that bunny anytime I got irritated with Hats, and it really did make me feel better.

I clicked on it now though, because I liked that bunny. He was a cool bunny.

FFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUU-

 daedalus wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

I clicked on the link in your signature, well played sir, well played *slow clap*

You know, I actually clicked on that bunny anytime I got irritated with Hats, and it really did make me feel better.

I clicked on it now though, because I liked that bunny. He was a cool bunny.

FFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUU-

I know right?

Damn you Hats!

 A Town Called Malus wrote:


I clicked on the link in your signature, well played sir, well played *slow clap*

And thus the bait is taken

However yes, you can have characters in "sexy" outfits if it actually makes sense for them to be in that outfit.

Yeah I mean, I've said before I don't draw much issue with skimpy out fits or fan service. Dare I say, I enjoy both these things. My issue is that more often than not, a female character is subjected to serving little purpose beyond skimpy outfits and fan service. If I want to get excited from women I don't know there's porn (or you know, I can go out on a date or something).

Wasting my time with triviality is annoying. I dare to say I'm a connoisseur of story telling. I have seen this crap so many times, and so many opportunities for good characters wasted, it grew old many years ago.

There is no reason an assassin would ever dress as she does. It is impractical in pretty much every way. She's in the spoiler:

And yeah, this is kind of what I'm talking about. She's basically wearing a bra, a thong, and some pantyhose. Ignore for a moment that she's an assassin. Who the feth wears a bra, thong, and pantyhose, and nothing else? I

And yes, Boss was a great character with a great visual design.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 daedalus wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

I clicked on the link in your signature, well played sir, well played *slow clap*

You know, I actually clicked on that bunny anytime I got irritated with Hats, and it really did make me feel better.

I clicked on it now though, because I liked that bunny. He was a cool bunny.

FFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUU-

I do it because I'm evil (Now that its burned I'll probably reinstate the bunny )

EDIT: Hats to base. Day 3: Successful Rickroll confirmed

Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:Well, no. Most manga/anime I have heard about included violence.

Include? Yes. But it's not celebrated to quite the same degree as it is here. That is my personal observation - maybe you've just been exposed to different stuff.

Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:I do not get bombarded with violence on the streets. Actually, there are much, much more big ads posters banking on sex to sell than on violence.

As I said, "we" are very big on teasing, whilst at the same time being very hypocritical when it comes to "actual" nudity. I have never seen a panties-dispenser here, though, or the same level of cartoon nudity that seems to be considered perfectly acceptable over there. What I have seen are numerous posters for games and movies that focus on portraying violence far more casually than Japanese media do - although there's certainly lots of stuff that uses it for "artistic shock value", it doesn't quite delve into the "popcorn cinema" violence I am used to from western media.
It's an interesting dichotomy, come to think of it. Almost as if violence over there is used more sparingly, but in greater extremes, whereas here it is firmly embedded in entertainment culture but spread out more evenly.

Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:Games about killing people. In both case.

You sure?

Though "about killing people" by itself would not have been a very good qualifier, anyways. I'd say there is a notable difference between a virtual person just falling down, or you blowing their head up in a rather graphic manner. When the latter is done with the intention to appeal to the target demographic, and said demographic considers it "cool" and "awesome", then that says something about those people.

And as for the gun argument, obviously it's difficult to find similar things in Europe due to stricter regulation and a more sensible approach to prevention, yet I know for a fact that the amount of knife-carriers at my old high school rose dramatically over the past decade. Needless to say, media exposure is not the only factor to blame - but I would say said a culture's media at the very least serve as an indicator, if not an amplifier of those tendencies. I'm not sure how much you follow international news, but maybe you've heard about how the German states are currently debating to send bills to soccer game organisers because they've had to send more and more troops to keep order because the associated riots have been getting progressively worse? And this escalation is happening across the country. Nowadays there's an actual "violence tourism" where certain types of people travel to demonstrations with the specific intent to start a fight with the cops and "have some fun". This is something that has been discussed in the interior ministry of the EU. I've never really heard of anything remotely similar from Japan.

 Lynata wrote:
But it's not celebrated to quite the same degree as it is here.

Well, shonen are usually all about the main character beating the gak out of anything that stands between him and his goal. Seinen are seinen because they are too violent, dark and edgy to be shonen.

 Lynata wrote:
As I said, "we" are very big on teasing, whilst at the same time being very hypocritical when it comes to "actual" nudity.

And I mentioned both non-sexual nudity in children's movie, and very sexual nudity on one of the most successful TV-show. What kind of nudity would satisfy you, again? Close-ups on genitals? We do not have panties-dispenser here, but we do have sex shops, you know. They sell stuff for sex.

 Lynata wrote:
What I have seen are numerous posters for games and movies that focus on portraying violence far more casually than Japanese media do - although there's certainly lots of stuff that uses it for "artistic shock value", it doesn't quite delve into the "popcorn cinema" violence I am used to from western media.
It's an interesting dichotomy, come to think of it. Almost as if violence over there is used more sparingly, but in greater extremes, whereas here it is firmly embedded in entertainment culture but spread out more evenly.

Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:Games about killing people. In both case.

You sure?

Pokemon, and apparently the first game, is all about forcing captive, tamed animals to fight for the enjoyment of their owners. How casual is this violence, to you?

 Lynata wrote:
And as for the gun argument, obviously it's difficult to find similar things in Europe due to stricter regulation and a more sensible approach to prevention, yet I know for a fact that the amount of knife-carriers at my old high school rose dramatically over the past decade.

I do not think I would have been even allowed to come with a knife in my high school. Actually, I think if a cop mistook my switchcomb for a switchblade, that could get me in trouble, I think. My swiss army knife is okay, but it would make a terrible weapon, because it was not designed for that. It was design to include a bottle opener and a screwdriver.

 Lynata wrote:
I'm not sure how much you follow international news, but maybe you've heard about how the German states are currently debating to send bills to soccer game organisers because they've had to send more and more troops to keep order because the associated riots have been getting progressively worse?

Hooligans is nothing new, but really, I am sure Japan has some equivalent.

 Ashiraya wrote:
Guys.

I was playing some Mortal Kombat 9 earlier, and I thought.

Why are there no decently nice-looking female characters?

I mean, I really like Scorpion, Raiden and especially Sub-Zero (Sub-Zero <3) but a few women would be nice for variation.

Thing is, all women in that game either have huge breasts, fight in a bikini (sometimes less) or wear high heels in combat, sometimes all of them.

While it's fair if some prefer that, I would prefer something different. Something akin to a female Cyber Sub-Zero.

Why doesn't this exist?

Compare so you see what I mean.

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

To be fair, Mortal Kombat is basically a B-style Asiaploitation fight game, and outfits in fighting games are generally not that sensible. For the spectacle and all that nonsense.
That said...what is with Sonya's top? I just don't get it

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
To be fair, Mortal Kombat is basically a B-style Asiaploitation fight game, and outfits in fighting games are generally not that sensible. For the spectacle and all that nonsense.

Well, there trading sensible for kick-ass, and there is trading sensible for sexy. I mean, if Raiden was designed the same way, he would look like this (a bit NSFW, I guess, just like the other pics):

I should get one of those.

If you do have the body to wear them and still look good, go for it.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
To be fair, Mortal Kombat is basically a B-style Asiaploitation fight game, and outfits in fighting games are generally not that sensible. For the spectacle and all that nonsense.

Well, there trading sensible for kick-ass, and there is trading sensible for sexy. I mean, if Raiden was designed the same way, he would look like this (a bit NSFW, I guess, just like the other pics):

Spoiler:

Except he wouldn't, because it doesn't follow any internal logic nor context (and yes, B-material still follows it's own sort of logic. Try replacing the deadites with clowns in Evil Dead. It just wouldn't work.)
The ninja girls are clearly designed after pop-culture's view of kunoichi. Them being sexy is reasonable within the context of the source material, that is, B-style exploitation.
Raiden is meant to be a pseudo-asian thunder god. He is not a sex god.
You cannot just go "but X would look silly if they did Y!" It doesn't work like that. You might as well paint an elephant pink and claim how silly it looks, and how therefore how silly roses are because they are pink.

My problem with Sonya is that her top does appear to follow any internal logic nor context. I mean, what is it even meant to be. It does not compute.

Also, are you implying that kick-ass cannot be sexy? I do believe that one could trade in sensible for kick-ass AND sexy.

MK is a bad example. It blatantly caters to men in each and every regard because female MK players are more of a myth than the Holy Grail.

 Sigvatr wrote:
MK is a bad example. It blatantly caters to men in each and every regard because female MK players are more of a myth than the Holy Grail.

There's that too.
Hence the B-style internal logic, gratuitous physics-defying violence and character design, and an setting that would give a super computer a hernia just by thinking about it.

Game of Thrones gets some of its attention here because of its nudity and "sexposition" (story exposition during sex scenes) and is not truly representative of most American media. Heck, it's on a premium cable network. Sexual scenes are very censored on our basic television, while we allow a lot more violence. We are much more excepting of fantasy violence than sex here.

Football is very violent. We love the game and a good part of it is about the massive hits. People run full speed to put someone down and hurt them. We eat it up. Right now we have a major lawsuit going on about the possibility of permanent brain damage from playing.

But back on topic, the last few MK games have getting weirder with their women fighter designs. They were looking more and more like clones with ridiculous implants. MK X is looking better, but they had no where to go but up. Street fighter has done a much better with creating a variety of female body types.

I always wondered if the excessive fan service of DOA affected it being considered a "respectable" fighting game. It has been awhile since it was a major part of EVO, right? I played DOA 2, and the system was fun. But man, it could be embarrassing.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Try replacing the deadites with clowns in Evil Dead. It just wouldn't work.

Yeah, evil clowns totally never work. That is why they do not make entire B-movies about clowns killing people.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Raiden is meant to be a pseudo-asian thunder god. He is not a sex god.

While almost every goddess ever is going to be sexy, goddess of sex or not goddess of sex. This is the annoying double-standard. Whether or not it comes from another genre's double standard does not change the fact it is an annoying double standard. And even in B-movies, you can find action girls that are not nearly as sexualized as those examples from MK that were posted. Like this. And this is a goddamn movie about women in prison, with about every named character being a woman. I mean, even the female ninja from Alien versus Ninja looks extremely tame compared to those pictures . Actually, remove the high heels, and I think she is basically what Asiraya was looking for…

 Sigvatr wrote:
MK is a bad example. It blatantly caters to men in each and every regard because female MK players are more of a myth than the Holy Grail.

How can you say there are a myth when you figuratively have one just in front of you? That… does not make any sense!

I specified Evil Dead. Not just any B-Movie. But since you want to go that rout, let's try replacing the Killer Clowns with kittens.

Are those action girls you speak of kunoichi? Or more specifically, the typical pop-culture perception of a kunoichi?
Look them up on google. They tend to be quite...extravagant.

Also, Is Gozer sexy?

 AdeptSister wrote:
Game of Thrones gets some of its attention here because of its nudity and "sexposition" (story exposition during sex scenes) and is not truly representative of most American media.

Okay, let me put it another way. What are all those Japanese movies or series with ton of nudity that are on basic television and are representative of most Japanese media?

 AdeptSister wrote:
Football is very violent.

And really, really a U.S. thing. For the rest of the world, football is not violent because it is soccer.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
I specified Evil Dead. Not just any B-Movie.

So, why did you spoke about a B-movie that includes no ninja to say what a B-movie influenced game should include in terms of ninja?

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
I specified Evil Dead. Not just any B-Movie.
Also, Is Gozer sexy?

I'd hit it... in the face, with a positron collider.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Are those action girls you speak of kunoichi? Or more specifically, the typical pop-culture perception of a kunoichi?

I wrote
“I mean, even the female ninja from Alien versus Ninja looks extremely tame compared to those pictures . Actually, remove the high heels, and I think she is basically what Asiraya was looking for…”
…
I guess that means yes, some of them are kunoichi, because as far as I can tell, kunoichi is just a more esoteric way to say female ninja.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
I specified Evil Dead. Not just any B-Movie.

So, why did you spoke about a B-movie that includes no ninja to say what a B-movie influenced game should include in terms of ninja?

To point out that even B-Movies needs internal context and logic?

Here is the original line :

"...and yes, B-material still follows it's own sort of logic. Try replacing the deadites with clowns in Evil Dead. It just wouldn't work."

It wasn't about ninjas. It was about logic.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Are those action girls you speak of kunoichi? Or more specifically, the typical pop-culture perception of a kunoichi?

I wrote
“I mean, even the female ninja from Alien versus Ninja looks extremely tame compared to those pictures . Actually, remove the high heels, and I think she is basically what Asiraya was looking for…”
…
I guess that means yes, some of them are kunoichi, because as far as I can tell, kunoichi is just a more esoteric way to say female ninja.

True. However, when you type kunoichi into google, you do not get tame. You get quite the opposite.
In fact, some of the girls in DoA are meant to be kunoichi.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
But since you want to go that rout, let's try replacing the Killer Clowns with kittens.

I think you are looking for this.
Stop fighting. Anything goes for B-movies. Anything. It is like Rule 34, only with B-movies .


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
To point out that even B-Movies needs internal context and logic?

No, they do not.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
True. However, when you type kunoichi into google, you do not get tame. You get quite the opposite.

So, some people do it sexy, some do not. Therefore MK has to make all of them sexy. Where is the logic in that?

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
But since you want to go that rout, let's try replacing the Killer Clowns with kittens.

I think you are looking for this.
Stop fighting. Anything goes for B-movies. Anything. It is like Rule 34, only with B-movies .

But then it wouldn't be Killer Clowns from Outer Space, wouldn't it?
Yes, everything goes in a B-movie. That's what makes it fun. But even they have their own sort of logic to follow. Otherwise it stops being fun and just goes into what-the-feth-is-this-gak territory.

Does White-fire follow it's own sort of logic?

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Does White-fire follow it's own sort of logic?

…
I do not think so. Watch it and tell me if you can find any . Or read those: http://www.nanarland.com/Chroniques/chronique-whitefire-white-fire.html .

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Does White-fire follow it's own sort of logic?

…
I do not think so. Watch it and tell me if you can find any . Or read those: http://www.nanarland.com/Chroniques/chronique-whitefire-white-fire.html .

If there is no logic, then wouldn't the absence of logic be logical in itself

Okay. Then I guess I see it now. MK cannot have female character that dress like this ninja from Alien versus Ninja because its own internal logic is that every female character ever should be showing as much skin as possible. Change the internal logic, then.

 Lynata wrote:
Include? Yes. But it's not celebrated to quite the same degree as it is here. That is my personal observation - maybe you've just been exposed to different stuff.

The distinction that needs to be drawn is less about the presence of violence and more about how the violence comes about.

In a lot of US productions, it goes like this; Hero meets bad guy -> Hero decides bad guy is a douche -> Hero beats up bad guy to save the day

In Anime/Manga this does happen, but more often it goes like this; Hero meets friend -> Bad guy attacks hero and friend -> Hero tries to reason with bad guy -> Bad guy is a douche about it -> Hero and friend beat up bad guy

In US media, battles and violence are often forgone conclusions from the get go, with the characters largely being perfectly okay with violence. In Manga though you often have characters who attempt to reason, don't like fighting (but are really good at it anyway), or who like fighting but don't generally fight if they can avoid it. The big point is that Japanese fiction contains lots of underlying pontifications about the value of violence. (Bolded because it is really important )

Take Naruto as an example. The series started off as a general action series very much like one you might find in the US (hence why it has consistently been the #1 manga/anime in America since it's release), but over time the series evolved to spend rather copious amounts of time focusing on the negative effects of violence, how it only leads to more violence, and the struggle of key characters as they search for an answer to find peace and it's not necessarily about killing the bad guy (many of Naruto's villains are not killed directly by the heroes). EDIT: American media tends to present violence as a physical confrontation, while many Japanese series' treat it as a spiritual/emotional confrontation.

I.E. Yes. Manga/Anime often contains lots of violence, more than you'd find in many Western series, but Manga/Anime rarely trivialize or celebrate that violence in the same way American media does.

And really, while you find lots of sexual content in their media, I'm not even sure it's what I'd call 'sex obsessed.' Often sex content is treated in one of two ways; very seriously (Suzuka, which was very serious and mature about its sexual content and the consequences of teen sex) or in a mocking fashion (Ichigo 100% and most Harem mangas/animes). At times, it can feel extremely perverted, and at others it feels almost like they don't even think much about sex, at least not like we do. Our culture almost forces us to treat sex very seriously as very serious business, but at times I get the sense that at least the idea of sex isn't as big a deal in Japan as it is for us. The act I'm sure is still very serious to them, but the idea seems one they're far more comfortable with or grounded in.

That said...what is with Sonya's top? I just don't get it

I know right? I mean yeah it draws your eyes to the luscious melons, but only because you're trying to figure out wtf she's wearing XD

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Okay. Then I guess I see it now. MK cannot have female character that dress like this ninja from Alien versus Ninja because its own internal logic is that every female character ever should be showing as much skin as possible. Change the internal logic, then.

The problem there is that it's an established series with an established theme. The Ott nature and character designs is what makes MK MK.
I suppose it is possible to revert to some of the earlier character designs though. No breach of internal logic and consistency there.