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Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





California

I am curious if the dropper bottles are more expensive or something. Since it seems every key is going with droppers with the exception of p3 and GW. From what I hear he p3 bottles are also great but I personally prefer droppers. If GW ever switches to them ill defiantly by there paints. Tell them I'm sticking with Vallejo.
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka






 wowsmash wrote:
I am curious if the dropper bottles are more expensive or something. Since it seems every key is going with droppers with the exception of p3 and GW. From what I hear he p3 bottles are also great but I personally prefer droppers. If GW ever switches to them ill defiantly by there paints. Tell them I'm sticking with Vallejo.


The bottles themselves? No.

But when I'm shilled for over 4 bucks a color. (3.70 before tax 4 and some change after.) The dropper botles have more paint to them.

When I picked up my first Vallejo, I thought that they were messing with me on the price. 2.50, to 3.00. compared to the pots? yeah, 17 ML Vallejo tp 12 in the GW pots, now.
New pots are smaller and cost more.

As of now, as I run out I go to Vallejo.



At Games Workshop, we believe that how you behave does matter. We believe this so strongly that we have written it down in the Games Workshop Book. There is a section in the book where we talk about the values we expect all staff to demonstrate in their working lives. These values are Lawyers, Guns and Money. 
   
Made in us
Last Remaining Whole C'Tan






Pleasant Valley, Iowa

 bkiker wrote:
I've watched a lot of the GW videos and I'm wondering what is there to comment on them. To me, their videos are basically commercials. Why do I want to write a comment on a commercial?


Do you understand that the internet supports bidirectional communications even if specific companies only use half the capacity?

Do you understand that just because you don't want to participate in the comments in a video, many, many other people find value in them and enjoy the interaction, and questions and discussion?

I'll be frank. I think you're being intentionally obtuse with this whole thread. There was a thread started the other day where a retailer went to a convention for games manufacturers and he discussed what he perceived as a poor show from GWS, and he contracted that with the presentation that other retailers in a similar space provided. In passing, he mentioned a technical problem with a computer. Your analysis of this harped on the technical problem as if that was the majority of his post, glossed over the contrast with other similarly situated retailers, and then launched into all these (frankly, laughable) analogies about how you paid for a truck and the engine failed, so finecast is actually awesome.

Every post you have made in this thread has the tone of someone who doesn't hear what the other people are really saying, and wants to go right on not hearing it. And, you know, that's OK. If you want to host a white knight hoedown, that's your business and you'll find no shortage of partners wanting to line up on both sides of the aisle. I know the game, I play it, it's OK.

But these pretensions of pretending you truly wish you could understand why - just stop.




 lord_blackfang wrote:
Respect to the guy who subscribed just to post a massive ASCII dong in the chat and immediately get banned.

 Flinty wrote:
The benefit of slate is that its.actually a.rock with rock like properties. The downside is that it's a rock
 
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut




 nectarprime wrote:
kb305 wrote:


They designed those screw on paint pots to dry out to make you buy more (the 12ml ones, look it up if you dont know what im talking about). that was back in early-mid 2000s.


Then why do I have 2 dozen of these pots still that are perfectly fine and not dried out, even when sitting for years with no use? Just sounds like angry people and their conspiracy theories.


i guess you must have the 12 ml GW pots from magical fairy pony land. It's well known that those pots were atrocious. Just sounds like GW white knight fan boys and their damage control.
   
Made in us
Last Remaining Whole C'Tan






Pleasant Valley, Iowa

kb305 wrote:
They designed those screw on paint pots to dry out to make you buy more (the 12ml ones, look it up if you dont know what im talking about). that was back in early-mid 2000s.


This seems unlikely. If you have a bunch of paint, and it dries out super fast, are you going to think

"oh, this paint dried out, I better buy more"
or
"man, this paint dried out already? It sucks; I should buy more paint from any of the dozen other paint manufacturers".

I presume Games Workshop makes the best paint they are capable of making, and their bottle refinements have been in pursuit of that. If they controlled 100% of the paint market, or nearly that, perhaps we could entertain this theory.


 lord_blackfang wrote:
Respect to the guy who subscribed just to post a massive ASCII dong in the chat and immediately get banned.

 Flinty wrote:
The benefit of slate is that its.actually a.rock with rock like properties. The downside is that it's a rock
 
   
Made in us
Wraith






kb305 wrote:
 nectarprime wrote:
kb305 wrote:


They designed those screw on paint pots to dry out to make you buy more (the 12ml ones, look it up if you dont know what im talking about). that was back in early-mid 2000s.


Then why do I have 2 dozen of these pots still that are perfectly fine and not dried out, even when sitting for years with no use? Just sounds like angry people and their conspiracy theories.


i guess you must have the 12 ml GW pots from magical fairy pony land. It's well known that those pots were atrocious. Just sounds like GW white knight fan boys and their damage control.


C'mon now, some people who aren't white knights have posted that their screw-on-lid pots haven't dried out. I know all mine did, but I never cleaned them. That could've possibly been intentional on GW's part, that is, they assumed there'd be people who would forget or not think to clean the edges so that the lids would stay on tight, but that doesn't seem likely.
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka






 Ouze wrote:
 bkiker wrote:
I've watched a lot of the GW videos and I'm wondering what is there to comment on them. To me, their videos are basically commercials. Why do I want to write a comment on a commercial?


Do you understand that the internet supports bidirectional communications even if specific companies only use half the capacity?

Do you understand that just because you don't want to participate in the comments in a video, many, many other people find value in them and enjoy the interaction, and questions and discussion?

I'll be frank. I think you're being intentionally obtuse with this whole thread. There was a thread started the other day where a retailer went to a convention for games manufacturers and he discussed what he perceived as a poor show from GWS, and he contracted that with the presentation that other retailers in a similar space provided. In passing, he mentioned a technical problem with a computer. Your analysis of this harped on the technical problem as if that was the majority of his post, glossed over the contrast with other similarly situated retailers, and then launched into all these (frankly, laughable) analogies about how you paid for a truck and the engine failed, so finecast is actually awesome.

Every post you have made in this thread has the tone of someone who doesn't hear what the other people are really saying, and wants to go right on not hearing it. And, you know, that's OK. If you want to host a white knight hoedown, that's your business and you'll find no shortage of partners wanting to line up on both sides of the aisle. I know the game, I play it, it's OK.

But these pretensions of pretending you truly wish you could understand why - just stop.





+1

Point being, just because you are not participating in the conversation doesn't mean anything.

GW is gakking up even more so these days, and just because you ignore it doesn't mean it isn't happening.



At Games Workshop, we believe that how you behave does matter. We believe this so strongly that we have written it down in the Games Workshop Book. There is a section in the book where we talk about the values we expect all staff to demonstrate in their working lives. These values are Lawyers, Guns and Money. 
   
Made in au
Sneaky Striking Scorpion





Brisbane, Australia

I'll just leave this here... suffice to say, the amount of bashing is proportionate to the amount of ill-will towards the community, especially the ramped up efforts in the last 6 months.


The Decade of Dickishness

Note: The following does not include the regular price increments, frankly there are too many to list. I'm sure there are many more addages to this, but these are the standout cliff notes.

2003 -

Online Sales in North America blocked, restricted only to GW Online Sales via their webstore. Distribution of goods outside US prohibited.

2009 -

Games Workshop send correspondence to eBay, requesting restrictions be imposed on the resale of any GW produced merchandise. eBay effectively flip them off.

2011 -

UK Embargo, blocking sales of GW product to anywhere outside of the UK.

Finecast (Failcast) is introduced as a cost cutting measure to the company, albeit at a much higher price to the consumer. Due to the high amount of defects in Finecast product casting some major retailers temporarily stop stocking it (Wayland Games in particular).

Further to the price hike on resin models an additional price rise is brought in shortly after in line with their 6 month/yearly "inflation" costs.

2012-

GW stores introduce single staffer model. Stores now close during lunchtimes. Provision of paints/materials that were previously a hobby starter "value add" are now revoked.

Mark Wells departs as CEO under speculative circumstances, his position being absorbed into the existing Director role (Tom "BIG CASH!" Kirby).

2013 -

Space Marine trademark. An Independent author a book removed from Amazon due to a claim by GW that they own the term "Space Marine". Games Workshop cops a bashing and it is cited that there are no grounds for such a long standing term to be considered "owned".

Social Media withdrawal. Games Workshop in the wake of the trademark backlash remove their HQ England and North American Facebook pages in a bid to silence the anger from fans and authors alike. GW cite that pushing customers to "local" pages is their reasoning for this - really this is a means to decentralising the backlash so customers have no central point of information on the subject. Comments are (and have been) disabled on YouTube to cripple any further negative response from being seen publicly.

Direct only rulebook announced which annoys many retailers. Not being able to sell the rulebook to the miniatures they stock is the reasoning behind this.

New trade guidelines for distributors and retailers. Canada now unable to partake in online sales at a retail level. Stores close as a result. Direct only ordering limits (reduced to 10% in some cases) imposed on distributors and retailers, reducing profit and forcing sales towards GW Online. Distribution and retail of goods outside North America & Canada now prohibited.

Bitz sales are also prohibited at risk of the affiliated account being cut off from supply.

Digital book price rise. Books on iTunes are raised to that of hardback prices.

GAMA and other Retailer events. GW basically flip everyone the bird, bringing in a single blank demo table. Their "paint workshop" was nothing more than a "Here's a space marine and five paints - have at it"... and a single rep repeating the same line in response to angered retailers "There's nothing I can do, but i'll pass on your concerns". No comments, no feedback, just stone walling.

Stock delayed to retailers, whilst plenty is available online via GW Direct. This is seen as a means to boost online sales through GW direct web/mail order channels, whilst reducing profit loss normally occurring by sales through retail/distribution channels.

EDIT: Added eBay shenanigans from 2009.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/04/12 07:07:56


ERROR: Reality.sys corrupted. Reboot Universe? Y/N

Project Thread - http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/547860.page

Eldar - 105,000pts (Estimated), Tyranids - 15,000pts

Dras'Volharr Craftworld Project http://wcwdb.blogspot.com.au/ 
   
Made in gb
The Last Chancer Who Survived




United Kingdom

 Morachi wrote:
I'll just leave this here... suffice to say, the amount of bashing is proportionate to the amount of ill-will towards the community, especially the ramped up efforts in the last 6 months.


The Decade of Dickishness
Spoiler:

Note: The following does not include the regular price increments, frankly there are too many to list. I'm sure there are many more addages to this, but these are the standout cliff notes.

2003 -

Online Sales in North America blocked, restricted only to GW Online Sales via their webstore. Distribution of goods outside US prohibited.

2011 -

UK Embargo, blocking sales of GW product to anywhere outside of the UK.

Finecast (Failcast) is introduced as a cost cutting measure to the company, albeit at a much higher price to the consumer. Due to the high amount of defects in Finecast product casting some major retailers temporarily stop stocking it (Wayland Games in particular).

Further to the price hike on resin models an additional price rise is brought in shortly after in line with their 6 month/yearly "inflation" costs.

2012-

GW stores introduce single staffer model. Stores now close during lunchtimes. Provision of paints/materials that were previously a hobby starter "value add" are now revoked.

Mark Wells departs as CEO under speculative circumstances, his position being absorbed into the existing Director role (Tom "BIG CASH!" Kirby).

2013 -

Space Marine trademark. An Independent author a book removed from Amazon due to a claim by GW that they own the term "Space Marine". Games Workshop cops a bashing and it is cited that there are no grounds for such a long standing term to be considered "owned".

Social Media withdrawal. Games Workshop in the wake of the trademark backlash remove their HQ England and North American Facebook pages in a bid to silence the anger from fans and authors alike. GW cite that pushing customers to "local" pages is their reasoning for this - really this is a means to decentralising the backlash so customers have no central point of information on the subject. Comments are (and have been) disabled on YouTube to cripple any further negative response from being seen publicly.

Direct only rulebook announced which annoys many retailers. Not being able to sell the rulebook to the miniatures they stock is the reasoning behind this.

New trade guidelines for distributors and retailers. Canada now unable to partake in online sales at a retail level. Stores close as a result. Direct only ordering limits (reduced to 10% in some cases) imposed on distributors and retailers, reducing profit and forcing sales towards GW Online. Distribution and retail of goods outside North America & Canada now prohibited.

Bitz sales are also prohibited at risk of the affiliated account being cut off from supply.

Digital book price rise. Books on iTunes are raised to that of hardback prices.

GAMA and other Retailer events. GW basically flip everyone the bird, bringing in a single blank demo table. Their "paint workshop" was nothing more than a "Here's a space marine and five paints - have at it"... and a single rep repeating the same line in response to angered retailers "There's nothing I can do, but i'll pass on your concerns". No comments, no feedback, just stone walling.

Stock delayed to retailers, whilst plenty is available online via GW Direct. This is seen as a means to boost online sales through GW direct web/mail order channels, whilst reducing profit loss normally occurring by sales through retail/distribution channels.

Oh, GW...
   
Made in au
Sneaky Striking Scorpion





Brisbane, Australia

Also a good (if very jaded) read - http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Games_Workshop

ERROR: Reality.sys corrupted. Reboot Universe? Y/N

Project Thread - http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/547860.page

Eldar - 105,000pts (Estimated), Tyranids - 15,000pts

Dras'Volharr Craftworld Project http://wcwdb.blogspot.com.au/ 
   
Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

 Morachi wrote:
The Decade of Perfectness

2003 -

Internet freeloaders in the US are finally dealt a decisive blow. It is a great day for brick and mortar stores.

2009 -

Games Workshop comes to an understanding with eBay regarding the sales of our products.

2011 -

Internet freeloaders in the UK are finally dealt a decisive blow. It is a great day for brick and mortar stores.

Citadel Finecast, the single greatest revolution in the history of miniature making, is released to the masses. It proves to be a huge success, and has outsold GW's metal models every quarter since its release. The detail is simply amazing on these models. They have to be seen to be believed.

Just like every year, the prices don't go up at all.

2012-

GW stores now go to the 1-man store model, where customers can come in and get whatever they need in a convenient location. The single staff member has knowledge across all areas, and this will increase sales.

We bid a fond farewell to CEO Mark Wells.

2013 -

Absolutely nothing happened with Amazon. We've never even heard of it.

From now on all interaction will be done on a store by store basis, rather than an overall company basis. Individual store Facebook pages remain whereas the redundant company Facebook pages are removed.

A new flyer expansion is released! This is great news!

Internet freeloaders in North America (including Canada this time!) are dealt another blow, cutting down on their unscrupulous behaviour. It's another great day for brick and mortar stores, such as MiniWarGaming, a highly successful Canadian brick and mortar store.

Internet freeloaders who highly inflate the prices of GW store are put to the sword.

A price adjustment is made to our online eBooks, bringing them in line with the rest of the hardcopy line and making choices far easier for our dedicated customer base.

GW proudly displays all the Games Workshop Hobby has to offer at GAMA and many other other retailer events. There were a few technical hiccups with our laptop, but that happens to everyone, right?

The knock-on effect of the Memphis plant's closure causes a slight delay to the Tau release. It is quickly and efficiently resolved.


Fixed.

(/White Knight)

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/04/12 09:36:34


Industrial Insanity - My Terrain Blog
"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
Made in gb
The Last Chancer Who Survived




United Kingdom

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
 Morachi wrote:
The Decade of Perfectness

2003 -

Internet freeloaders in the US are finally dealt a decisive blow. It is a great day for brick and mortar stores.

2009 -

Games Workshop comes to an understanding with eBay regarding the sales of our products.

2011 -

Internet freeloaders in the UK are finally dealt a decisive blow. It is a great day for brick and mortar stores.

Citadel Finecast, the single greatest revolution in the history of miniature making, is released to the masses. It proves to be a huge success, and has outsold GW's metal models every quarter since its release. The detail is simply amazing on these models. They have to be seen to be believed.

Just like every year, the prices don't go up at all.

2012-

GW stores now go to the 1-man store model, where customers can come in and get whatever they need in a convenient location. The single staff member has knowledge across all areas, and this will increase sales.

We bid a fond farewell to CEO Mark Wells.

2013 -

Absolutely nothing happened with Amazon. We've never even heard of it.

From now on all interaction will be done on a store by store basis, rather than an overall company basis. Individual store Facebook pages remain whereas the redundant company Facebook pages are removed.

A new flyer expansion is released! This is great news!

Internet freeloaders in North America (including Canada this time!) are dealt another blow, cutting down on their unscrupulous behaviour. It's another great day for brick and mortar stores, such as MiniWarGaming, a highly successful Canadian brick and mortar store.

Internet freeloaders who highly inflate the prices of GW store are put to the sword.

A price adjustment is made to our online eBooks, bringing them in line with the rest of the hardcopy line and making choices far easier for our dedicated customer base.

GW proudly displays all the Games Workshop Hobby has to offer at GAMA and many other other retailer events. There were a few technical hiccups with our laptop, but that happens to everyone, right?

The knock-on effect of the Memphis plan's closure causes a slight delay to the Tau release. It is quickly and efficiently resolved.

/sarcasm


Fixed.

(/White Knight)

Fix'd what you fix'd
   
Made in ca
Executing Exarch






 Morachi wrote:
I'll just leave this here... suffice to say, the amount of bashing is proportionate to the amount of ill-will towards the community, especially the ramped up efforts in the last 6 months.


The Decade of Dickishness

Note: The following does not include the regular price increments, frankly there are too many to list. I'm sure there are many more addages to this, but these are the standout cliff notes.

2003 -

Online Sales in North America blocked, restricted only to GW Online Sales via their webstore. Distribution of goods outside US prohibited.

2009 -

Games Workshop send correspondence to eBay, requesting restrictions be imposed on the resale of any GW produced merchandise. eBay effectively flip them off.

2011 -

UK Embargo, blocking sales of GW product to anywhere outside of the UK.

Finecast (Failcast) is introduced as a cost cutting measure to the company, albeit at a much higher price to the consumer. Due to the high amount of defects in Finecast product casting some major retailers temporarily stop stocking it (Wayland Games in particular).

Further to the price hike on resin models an additional price rise is brought in shortly after in line with their 6 month/yearly "inflation" costs.

2012-

GW stores introduce single staffer model. Stores now close during lunchtimes. Provision of paints/materials that were previously a hobby starter "value add" are now revoked.

Mark Wells departs as CEO under speculative circumstances, his position being absorbed into the existing Director role (Tom "BIG CASH!" Kirby).

2013 -

Space Marine trademark. An Independent author a book removed from Amazon due to a claim by GW that they own the term "Space Marine". Games Workshop cops a bashing and it is cited that there are no grounds for such a long standing term to be considered "owned".

Social Media withdrawal. Games Workshop in the wake of the trademark backlash remove their HQ England and North American Facebook pages in a bid to silence the anger from fans and authors alike. GW cite that pushing customers to "local" pages is their reasoning for this - really this is a means to decentralising the backlash so customers have no central point of information on the subject. Comments are (and have been) disabled on YouTube to cripple any further negative response from being seen publicly.

Direct only rulebook announced which annoys many retailers. Not being able to sell the rulebook to the miniatures they stock is the reasoning behind this.

New trade guidelines for distributors and retailers. Canada now unable to partake in online sales at a retail level. Stores close as a result. Direct only ordering limits (reduced to 10% in some cases) imposed on distributors and retailers, reducing profit and forcing sales towards GW Online. Distribution and retail of goods outside North America & Canada now prohibited.

Bitz sales are also prohibited at risk of the affiliated account being cut off from supply.

Digital book price rise. Books on iTunes are raised to that of hardback prices.

GAMA and other Retailer events. GW basically flip everyone the bird, bringing in a single blank demo table. Their "paint workshop" was nothing more than a "Here's a space marine and five paints - have at it"... and a single rep repeating the same line in response to angered retailers "There's nothing I can do, but i'll pass on your concerns". No comments, no feedback, just stone walling.

Stock delayed to retailers, whilst plenty is available online via GW Direct. This is seen as a means to boost online sales through GW direct web/mail order channels, whilst reducing profit loss normally occurring by sales through retail/distribution channels.

EDIT: Added eBay shenanigans from 2009.


This is all great news! Obviously this can only further the development of the GW hobby.

Rick Priestley said it best:
Bryan always said that if the studio ever had to mix with the manufacturing and sales part of the business it would destroy the studio. And I have to say – he wasn’t wrong there! The modern studio isn’t a studio in the same way; it isn’t a collection of artists and creatives sharing ideas and driving each other on. It’s become the promotions department of a toy company – things move on!
 
   
Made in gb
Rampaging Reaver Titan Princeps






 Morachi wrote:
I'll just leave this here... suffice to say, the amount of bashing is proportionate to the amount of ill-will towards the community, especially the ramped up efforts in the last 6 months.


The Decade of Dickishness

...snip...


What about all that's happened from 2004-2010, including things like the wholesale closure of specialist games being a particular bugbear, including:

Closure of Fanatic magazine to online only
Consolodation of Specialist Games line
Closure of the specialist games website and forums and fanatic online and complete dropping of support

Not forgetting:

Closure of their bits service without any sort of replacement service of any kind
Removal of decent content from their website

I'm sure you can find other examples...
   
Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

I felt the sarcasm was kinda implied...

Industrial Insanity - My Terrain Blog
"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
Made in au
Sneaky Striking Scorpion





Brisbane, Australia

I've got a big stupid grin on my face H.B.M.C

Thank you for the laughs haha.

ERROR: Reality.sys corrupted. Reboot Universe? Y/N

Project Thread - http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/547860.page

Eldar - 105,000pts (Estimated), Tyranids - 15,000pts

Dras'Volharr Craftworld Project http://wcwdb.blogspot.com.au/ 
   
Made in gb
Rampaging Reaver Titan Princeps






I have to ask as I missed it, any pointers to what happened between ebay and the wacky workshop?
   
Made in ca
Executing Exarch






Ebay basically told GW to take a hike, they cant touch the second hand market (which GW desperately wants to destroy).


Rick Priestley said it best:
Bryan always said that if the studio ever had to mix with the manufacturing and sales part of the business it would destroy the studio. And I have to say – he wasn’t wrong there! The modern studio isn’t a studio in the same way; it isn’t a collection of artists and creatives sharing ideas and driving each other on. It’s become the promotions department of a toy company – things move on!
 
   
Made in gb
The Last Chancer Who Survived




United Kingdom

 zedmeister wrote:
I have to ask as I missed it, any pointers to what happened between ebay and the wacky workshop?

GW tried to prevent resale of used GW materials (models, bitz, paints, books etc), but British trading laws does not allow this. Ebay continues to be the "black market" of used GW products.
   
Made in au
Sneaky Striking Scorpion





Brisbane, Australia

Yes kids, that's the level of dickishness GW goes to, they've been trying to break that record recently though.

ERROR: Reality.sys corrupted. Reboot Universe? Y/N

Project Thread - http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/547860.page

Eldar - 105,000pts (Estimated), Tyranids - 15,000pts

Dras'Volharr Craftworld Project http://wcwdb.blogspot.com.au/ 
   
Made in gb
Lord Commander in a Plush Chair





Beijing

No one mentioned them 'protecting their fortress walls' through a string of C&Ds aimed at small manufacturers and fan sites.
   
Made in ca
Executing Exarch






 Morachi wrote:
Also a good (if very jaded) read - http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Games_Workshop


This is required reading. especially the "Why Games Workshop is Bad and it Should Feel Bad" section.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/04/12 09:52:41


Rick Priestley said it best:
Bryan always said that if the studio ever had to mix with the manufacturing and sales part of the business it would destroy the studio. And I have to say – he wasn’t wrong there! The modern studio isn’t a studio in the same way; it isn’t a collection of artists and creatives sharing ideas and driving each other on. It’s become the promotions department of a toy company – things move on!
 
   
Made in gb
Rampaging Reaver Titan Princeps






 Ravenous D wrote:
 Morachi wrote:
Also a good (if very jaded) read - http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Games_Workshop


This is required reading. especially the "Why Games Workshop is Bad and it Should Feel Bad" section.


Re-post for the workblocked (or the inappropriateness of accessing that link at work!)?
   
Made in au
Sneaky Striking Scorpion





Brisbane, Australia

 zedmeister wrote:
 Ravenous D wrote:
 Morachi wrote:
Also a good (if very jaded) read - http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Games_Workshop


This is required reading. especially the "Why Games Workshop is Bad and it Should Feel Bad" section.


Re-post for the workblocked (or the inappropriateness of accessing that link at work!)?


Only posting that section - its a doosey.

Why Games Workshop is Bad and it Should Feel Bad

When speaking of a company, a person is tempted to think of a large body of human beings coming together in an efficient group. The group is governed, and it is thought that someone is there to ascertain the best possible choices are being made granted the information available at hand. However, this perspective, like most of 40k's explicit war “tactics”, is absolute nonsensical trash.

Never mind that large groups are often less efficient due to the fact that most people like to agree and be part of a group, even if the group is wrong. Forget that the burden of hard work is often shrugged off thanks to the assumption that everyone else will be carrying enough of the real challenges to pull things through. Instead, focus on the fact that the people heading GW – or most large corporations for that matter – are successful, rich, ordinary men who are blessed by good fortune in an unfair universe and probably don't realize the reality. Further, examine the knowledge that, according to Sun Tzu and a variety of psychological studies, successful rich people with the profound luck are the folks most likely to make stupid mistakes out of anyone!

Now you know why GW (or the entire world, for that matter) is run the way it is.

A source of some debate on /tg/ is whether or not GW is actually charging prices that make sense for the hobby. All logic points to a resounding “no”, but another interesting social phenomena is this: fanboyism is an inbuilt human process. Whenever money is spent on a good, especially a luxury item, man has a way of increasing the illusionary worth of that item.

Imagine buying tickets to see your local team play football, and they lose. It's not even a good game, to be honest. People around the country were disappointed. However, those tickets cost a lot of money, and having spent all that money for so little in return makes a person feel stupid. We grope for other things, then, to make the tickets worth while. Yes, it was cold, but your wife was there, so you bonded! The beer was too expensive as well, but they sold your favorite brand! You had an experience! It was fun! Yes, those tickets were worth it in the end.

We'll even do this with soft drinks. Even if brain probes reveal a man likes Pepsi more than Coke, going back and telling the man what he was drinking can actually alter his memory so that he remembers liking the Coke more. It's amazing.

GW products are exactly the same way. They're ludicrously expensive. Even people who support GW fervently wish they weren't. It hurts. In a rough economy, it's hard to play the game. You spend months, years – who knows how long waiting for that new codex, it turns out to be awful compared to expectations (hello, Tyranids!), and now you've either got to suck it up and keep playing (got to buy the new Trygons, I guess, even though they aren't that great), or take a huge monetary loss and give up. Fanboyism steps in and makes it all okay. You're not just buying the models, but the game and the network utility too, so 40k is still totally fun and cool!

Big corporations, and GW as well, are predators. They feast on fanboyism. Like the Dark Eldar, they prey on your suffering and write sick, stomach-turning poetry about the flowing, green streams of vital wealth they siphon from your being. You are a toy. That cute girl at the convenience store you see all the time? Thanks to GW, you have to choose between inviting her to the theater and buying that new squadron of Guardsmen. Those of you scoffing at the dilemma, shut up; those Guardsmen are not going to nag nearly as much after you've had them for a little while, so it's totally a tough call.

But putty in their hands you may be, there are still some principles of basic economics that imply GW might not be earning enough revenue, and surprisingly, they can only lose more money by raising prices! There's no real way of knowing how things really are within GW without a look at the delicate, inner machinery they need to shoo Matt Ward's putrid, corrosive stench away from. But it does all come back to our first consideration: GW is run by the type of person most notable for making poor decisions – successful people, and a group, no less.

The situation is thus: there is more to money flow than just the bottom line, though often it's all we think of, but basically there's income, cost, and revenue. What is of most concern is revenue, which could also be thought of as profit. GW sells their models for a greater amount than what they cost, and the amount they make is revenue!

So now, there's revenue, and then there's marginal revenue. Revenue is just how much you make. Sell a thousand Guardsmen and make ten thousand dollars? Your Guardsmen revenue is $10,000! Marginal revenue, on the other hand, is how much you make compared to selling one less of the item. In this case, the Guardsmen have a marginal revenue of $10. Each Guardsman made a profit of $10, and if you sold one less Guardsman, you'd make $10 less. See? Easy. Well, for this simplified example anyway (in reality there are a lot of fixed start-up costs, but point made).

Now let's raise prices. From now on, we'll sell half as many Guardsmen per box, and the boxes will cost the same. Now marginal revenue is $22, because every time a Guardsman is sold, we bring in $20 per Guardsman plus an additional $2 gets saved thanks to the Guardsmen we didn't make! This is cool – we're in business, just like GW, /tg/! Let's do that again – our customers are fans, they'll bare it! Now we'll sell five Guardsmen to a box, and we have a marginal revenue of $45!

Okay, wait, wait. I've got it. I'm a genius. Let's sell one Guardsman. Sell it for the same price we used to sell twenty of them! We're going to be rich! Marginal revenue is going to be amazing! Like, what, over a hundred dollars a purchase?

So what's our profit in the end? What! Negative? How!? We're making so much per model! The marginal revenue is so high!

The answer is simple. Not enough people are buying one crappy Guardsman for $200 dollars. A few of the fans are sticking it out, hating us relentlessly, but newcomers to the game see the price tag and run screaming. People who can't afford it leave because they have no other choice, but they're happy in retrospect. Even some of our most loyal customers finally decided to just date that girl after all – she's not nearly as pricey and they'll deal with her constant bitching. Actual revenue is at an all time low.

Believe it or not, companies really do make this mistake, albeit not to this extent (unless you check out Forge World, anyway. Anyone want a Tau Manta? Only costs more than $1,000). It's because maximizing marginal revenue is very easy. It's simple arithmetic, and if your market base is rather inelastic (and GW's market base certainly is due to the high investment requirements of their games), a lot of times price changes won't have a huge impact, so it's easier to focus on. GW is at some point in the middle here, where it has started to become questionable.

It's hard to say if they're making right decisions or if their pricing makes the most sense. It's becoming the status quo that their games are really a hobby of those with absurd disposable income, which is not a quality described of the young men who are presumed to make up 40k's primary demographic. It's possible that they're targeting young teens with parents who will buy the models for them, but that's hard to say as well since parents will lack the dedicated fanboyism to continually invest in the absurdly priced hobby.

Mix in unbalanced rules that unfairly favor certain factions, long wait times between army updates, inferior model quality compared to what's provided to model hobbyists outside of the wargaming industry, and GW may have a recipe for a failing market.

In fact, by using some math and basic market theory, we can actually take a look at how much GW is supposedly spending to bring our hobby to us.

The list below will give us some basic numbers to work with. We know that GW currently sells its rule books at $74.25. What we don't know is GW's actual costs or how many books they're selling. These things have an impact on the math, but we'll sort of fudge it. Now, based on that alone, we want to price our book at twice what it costs to make the thing. In the real world all this nice math has the tendency to fly apart, but generally speaking that's the ideal manner of doing things. For example:

Quantity sold: 0 Price of book: $0 Estimated cost to GW: $0 Marginal Cost: $0 Marginal Revenue: $0 Total Revenue: $0

Quantity sold: 1 Price of book: $74.25 Estimated cost to GW: $37.13 Marginal Cost: $37.13 Marginal Revenue: $37.12 Total Revenue: $37.12

Quantity sold: 2 Price of book: $74.25 Estimated cost to GW: $74.25 Marginal Cost: $37.13 Marginal Revenue: $37.12 Total Revenue: $74.25

And so on. Since we're assuming that every book has a fixed cost to produce, we just get a rough idea of what it's actually costing GW to make rule books for us. Or so such is true only if we figure they're trying to price things according to a competitive market where the consumer sets the price. Basic economics says we want to have a marginal revenue equal to our marginal cost if we want to work with a price we can't really control, and that's what this does.

See, there's a few things to consider. The first is that, in a competitive market, people are just going to buy the cheapest product. That means whoever is selling cheapest kind of wins the day, but while GW could maybe sell their rule books at $20 each, they'd be suffering huge profit losses that are not directly proportionate to the change in price. Instead, they'll try to follow along with what the market is doing, and to their very best possible effort, they'll try to lower their costs so that the marginal costs equal the marginal revenue (or, again, their prices are basically double their production costs per item). That just simply maximizes revenue, since if they raise prices their competitors will undercut them and GW will be able to sell nothing.

But honestly, if you've read this far, then hopefully you're braced for this shock. According to estimates from a few publishers, it only costs about $3 per book to publish 5,000 hardback books, and that cost decreases as you publish in greater bulk. 40k books do have a lot of pretty pictures, so maybe that increases costs somewhat, but again, costs generally tend to get smaller as you order more of an item, and it's pretty likely that GW is not just settling for a measly 5,000 books internationally. They sell all over the world.

So where are all these other costs popping up that should cause GW to spend $37 on every single book they produce? In small production quantities, we'd consider the cost of labor. Who knows how much Matt Ward demands to be paid to lick every rule book before it leaves the factory! What do the photographers want in compensation? Actually, stop. At GW's production rates, those expense considerations become almost completely negligible. You pay Matt Ward a salary to lick all the books. It's a yearly thing. You pay him once and you're done, so by the time you've produced a million books, even if you paid Matt a million dollars to slobber on every single page, Matt is only increasing the cost of the books by a dollar each.

Margins are all that matter. GW talks about overheads and so forth as an excuse, but that's insanity. In a perfectly competitive market you don't increase prices to cover overheads. You reduce the overheads because they're predictable annual costs that you more or less established on your own! Besides, you shouldn't be able to arbitrarily raise prices like that, seeing as how your competitors are supposedly keeping you in check! So really, what we can infer is the following:

A. Basically, GW has no competitors controlling their pricing right now.

B. They are price gouging their players.

C. Their pricing is not directly related to their costs, and anything they say to the contrary is a big fat lie.

D. You could play another game, but all your friends are playing 40k anyway and you don't want to feel left out.

E. **** Games Workshop


This article also explains the problem with Australian prices, in a slightly less detailed manner

ERROR: Reality.sys corrupted. Reboot Universe? Y/N

Project Thread - http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/547860.page

Eldar - 105,000pts (Estimated), Tyranids - 15,000pts

Dras'Volharr Craftworld Project http://wcwdb.blogspot.com.au/ 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





California

 Selym wrote:
 Morachi wrote:
I'll just leave this here... suffice to say, the amount of bashing is proportionate to the amount of ill-will towards the community, especially the ramped up efforts in the last 6 months.


The Decade of Dickishness
Spoiler:

Note: The following does not include the regular price increments, frankly there are too many to list. I'm sure there are many more addages to this, but these are the standout cliff notes.

2003 -

Online Sales in North America blocked, restricted only to GW Online Sales via their webstore. Distribution of goods outside US prohibited.

2011 -

UK Embargo, blocking sales of GW product to anywhere outside of the UK.

Finecast (Failcast) is introduced as a cost cutting measure to the company, albeit at a much higher price to the consumer. Due to the high amount of defects in Finecast product casting some major retailers temporarily stop stocking it (Wayland Games in particular).

Further to the price hike on resin models an additional price rise is brought in shortly after in line with their 6 month/yearly "inflation" costs.

2012-

GW stores introduce single staffer model. Stores now close during lunchtimes. Provision of paints/materials that were previously a hobby starter "value add" are now revoked.

Mark Wells departs as CEO under speculative circumstances, his position being absorbed into the existing Director role (Tom "BIG CASH!" Kirby).

2013 -

Space Marine trademark. An Independent author a book removed from Amazon due to a claim by GW that they own the term "Space Marine". Games Workshop cops a bashing and it is cited that there are no grounds for such a long standing term to be considered "owned".

Social Media withdrawal. Games Workshop in the wake of the trademark backlash remove their HQ England and North American Facebook pages in a bid to silence the anger from fans and authors alike. GW cite that pushing customers to "local" pages is their reasoning for this - really this is a means to decentralising the backlash so customers have no central point of information on the subject. Comments are (and have been) disabled on YouTube to cripple any further negative response from being seen publicly.

Direct only rulebook announced which annoys many retailers. Not being able to sell the rulebook to the miniatures they stock is the reasoning behind this.

New trade guidelines for distributors and retailers. Canada now unable to partake in online sales at a retail level. Stores close as a result. Direct only ordering limits (reduced to 10% in some cases) imposed on distributors and retailers, reducing profit and forcing sales towards GW Online. Distribution and retail of goods outside North America & Canada now prohibited.

Bitz sales are also prohibited at risk of the affiliated account being cut off from supply.

Digital book price rise. Books on iTunes are raised to that of hardback prices.

GAMA and other Retailer events. GW basically flip everyone the bird, bringing in a single blank demo table. Their "paint workshop" was nothing more than a "Here's a space marine and five paints - have at it"... and a single rep repeating the same line in response to angered retailers "There's nothing I can do, but i'll pass on your concerns". No comments, no feedback, just stone walling.

Stock delayed to retailers, whilst plenty is available online via GW Direct. This is seen as a means to boost online sales through GW direct web/mail order channels, whilst reducing profit loss normally occurring by sales through retail/distribution channels.

Oh, GW...


Yep, that pretty much sums it up. It's like watching a favorite uncle go down the tubes with drugs and liqueur. Such a shame.
   
Made in gb
Ancient Ultramarine Venerable Dreadnought





UK

I never heard about GW trying to stop eBay selling their stuff, that's fething unbelievable.

I'm glad they were told to do one, I've made every purchase second hand for about two years.

I will add however, regards the whole debate, why are terms like hater and white knight not considered to be rude? I hate even seeing it typed, it makes me feel like if any impartial observer comes in for a read they will think we are a bunch of entitled dweebs with a complex.

And if someone is part of this gak unfunny clique that tries to bully people with the help of his buddies, loling and calling me a white knight, why am I not entitled to call him a mother fether?

The intent is the same surely?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/04/12 11:45:36


We are arming Syrian rebels who support ISIS, who is fighting Iran, who is fighting Iraq who we also support against ISIS, while fighting Kurds who we support while they are fighting Syrian rebels.  
   
Made in au
Sneaky Striking Scorpion





Brisbane, Australia

Disregard any name calling Mattyrm, this is the internet and people will say rubbish like that at times, its more out of frustration than anything from what i've seen.

But yes, it was good to see eBay put GW in their place. Can you imagine the fall out if that had made it through? One shudders at the thought.

ERROR: Reality.sys corrupted. Reboot Universe? Y/N

Project Thread - http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/547860.page

Eldar - 105,000pts (Estimated), Tyranids - 15,000pts

Dras'Volharr Craftworld Project http://wcwdb.blogspot.com.au/ 
   
Made in us
Terminator with Assault Cannon





One interesting fact about human psychology is that people seem to accept or reject arguments based not on their factual content, but based on whether they agree with the conclusions. You can see this principle at work on these very boards-- when I said that GW did not have any truly direct competitors earlier as part of an argument saying that GW would likely be around for a while, people incessantly made fun of the notion.

However, when whoever wrote that 4chan post said that GW did not have any truly direct competitors as part of an argument about how bad GW is, people responded positively instead-- motivated cognition at work!
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut






Sheffield, City of University and Northern-ness

 Grot 6 wrote:
The hate flows when GW screws up, just as the praise comes when they do well.

The door swings both ways.

Pahahaha!! Oh, you're serious? So, when was the last time you heard of someone praising GW for, for example, the plastic Nurgle Champion? It's an amazing model, but outside of a few " that's really nice" posts in the thread where it was announced, i cant remember it being mentioned since.
Conversely, when was the last time you heard of someone criticising GW for a model that was released a while ago that people still refer to by a stupid nickname? "the Pumbagor" "goldswords" etc?

There is a huge disparity between the amount that GW are criticised for getting something wrong, and the amount they are praised for getting it very right, and to argue otherwise is ridiculous.

The door really doesn't swing both ways.

   
Made in au
Sneaky Striking Scorpion





Brisbane, Australia

You're forgetting that it is community driven and compiled/edited by many. No single person wrote that entire list of content.

Just as you get differing and conflicting opinion here as well.

I also might mention that it is a Wiki entry, not a blog with comments - I see no "positive response" there, so your comment about "people responded positively instead" holds no merit. Unless you care to explain further.

ERROR: Reality.sys corrupted. Reboot Universe? Y/N

Project Thread - http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/547860.page

Eldar - 105,000pts (Estimated), Tyranids - 15,000pts

Dras'Volharr Craftworld Project http://wcwdb.blogspot.com.au/ 
   
 
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