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Fzorgle = Lash of Submission (in case that hasn't permeated Dakka yet).

I was at the FLGS today, and a couple guys there said they'd played a game against one another, one with a dual Fzorgle list.  Neither of them seemed too blown away by the effects.  I was skeptical, but it prompts me to ask:

Has anybody gotten some Fzorgle experience under their belt, and formed an opinion?  Is this thing as broken as I (and others) have been shrieking, or will it turn out to be less?

I know this doesnt help with your question, but where did this "Fzorgle" term come from and how does it translate into Lash of Submission?

Well I have yet to play Samwise, but he is a local to the twincities now and he has a battlereport on his experience with it, here at Dakka.

I played another local person at airtraffic and he ran two Fzorgle Lashes^TM®©.... it took every ounce of tact and etiquette to keep myself from simply packing my models up and leaving. ( I was playing necrons.....)

It wasnt an instant win button, but my god, it was so damned annoying. So very very very annoying. Add a heckling nerd laugh (you people know who you are) and suddenly, the game youre playing feels like your bathing in acid.

Its like the person is playing the game by himself. A word of advice, if youre going to play with yourself, stay at home and do it in private.

Its the type of thing to do when you want to make sure that your opponent understands, in no uncertain terms, that you are a complete prick and a timmy of the highest (lowest?) order.

Gav Thorpe should be curb stomped for this.

Posted By Deadshane1 on 09/09/2007 12:48 AM
I know this doesnt help with your question, but where did this "Fzorgle" term come from and how does it translate into Lash of Submission?

Here ya go.

Posted By Triggerbaby on 08/07/2007 1:46 PM

The rules for the Lash aren't entirely clear, but it looks like one might be able to target enemy units in close combat. And naturally, once somebody asks the question, Gav will immediately pipe up and give an enthusiastic albeit unofficial yes. Because he is a goddam sped.

But the possibilities for abuse are both game breaking and amusing!

• Charged by my Beserkers? Fzorgle! You will be charged again next turn by my Furious Repeating Charge!
• My Oblits are stuck in combat with Scarabs? Fzorgle! Not when the Scarabs love the great taste of leaving combat to jump into dangerous terrain on the lava tables.
• I have been charged by your Slugga Boys? Fzorgle! I think you'll find they prefer to stand in a circle front of my Defiler.

And let's not forget that if normal targeting rules are superceded, you can always fzorgle independant characters out of attached units and into harm's way.

Even outside the balance issues, the lash is just a terrible idea. It adds more movement to the round, and movement is the most time-intensive aspect of game. Large units take a couple of minutes to move, particularly for players who are used to moving small units. Like Chaos players. And as mentioned before, it sanctions your opponent to put his greasy sausage fingers on your models. I don't want your Cheetos dust on my Talos, fatty, and I'm assuming the sentiment is mutual.

Oh, and I love how it forces a pinning test on top of the movement. It's like the designers weren't sure if anybody would want it. I envision the following: "All it does is move enemy units? Disgusted snort. Hey, stupid person, we're trying to get rid of the useless, fluffy wargear that so bothered everybody in the last edition. Fix it, post haste. Limpwristed dismissal accompanied by small fart."

Lastly, I vote for calling our new friend the Fzorgle Prince^TM. It sounds stupid and makes absolutely no sense, just like the Lash Of Fzorgling itself.

Its from the thread below:
www.dakkadakka.com/CommunityForums/tabid/56/forumid/18/tpage/7/view/Topic/postid/179282/Default.aspx

"I was at the FLGS today, and a couple guys there said they'd played a game against one another, one with a dual Fzorgle list. Neither of them seemed too blown away by the effects".

Than the are stupid... I played a test game against a tyranid player..he had so much psychic screams that the lash did not work... he won.. after the game he still thought the Lash was to good... "what only 25 points"????!!!! "what... you can have two!!!???"

The Lash is just to good... if you cant see that....shame on you.....

what a great explanation on the origins of this "Fzorgle" term, I think I'll adopt it for other forums too....

Thanx Hellfury, I needed a laugh after an evening of thumping inmates!

I've played one game with is. It did end up winning the game for me (Moved a big group of broadsides plus ethereal off the objective).

The short range does, in my opinion, make it balanced. There was twice I was out of range and once I failed my psychic test. (And once I had to fleet instead of shooting it). It's just another tool in the Chaos Arsenal. Fear of the darkness is far worse.

Granted, I only used a single sorcerer.

short range makes it balanced??? Its not balanced at all...!!

2 deamon Princes with wings... fly 12 inch... two lashes... move a units 4 D6 closer... and assault!!!!
Deep strike a terminator unit with combi plasma's and a attached terminator socerer with lash...... deep strike near a unit.. move it 2D closer and blast away!!!!

Do I really need to go on.....?

You know Shogun, as much as I want to agree that Fzorgling is broken, Skythe is a poster with a decent history, and all I have seen from you is hysterics.

Personally, I am looking forward to testing Fzorgle a bit. I think that it's effectiveness will be blunted very much by the generally rising point values that GW seems to be trying to foist upon us, but it should tear up small games against most armies that aren't Mech Eldar.

The problem is that in a competitive tourney you'll be likely to face Mech Eldar which has warding and vehicles. Nidzilla has choir and shadows. Even SAFH marines can have a psychic hood. Sure lash is very good against the weaker lists but it has troubles with the current top tier lists.

Not much point in doubling up on a power that is only useful against the less competitive armies out there imo.

The problem is that in a competitive tourney you'll be likely to face Mech Eldar which has warding and vehicles. Nidzilla has choir and shadows. Even SAFH marines can have a psychic hood. Sure lash is very good against the weaker lists but it has troubles with the current top tier lists.

Not much point in doubling up on a power that is only really useful against the less competitive armies out there imo.

Posted By zaqzaq on 09/09/2007 4:24 PM
The problem is that in a competitive tourney you'll be likely to face Mech Eldar which has warding and vehicles. Nidzilla has choir and shadows. Even SAFH marines can have a psychic hood. Sure lash is very good against the weaker lists but it has troubles with the current top tier lists.

Not much point in doubling up on a power that is only useful against the less competitive armies out there imo.

correct. it's just broken enough to make sure the people with the weaker lists in tournaments get herded into Nidzilla, Mecheldar and SSMAFH like they are supposed to be.

bottom line. Chaos = second rate.

It would be odd if a new broken power forced tournament players to actually conform to the metagame, something that 40K players seem dreadfully loathe to do.

I just played a dual fzorgle army this weekend (a friend who has played slannesh for about 9 years) and slannesh is now hard as nails.

They only thing with the dual fzorgle is the delivery. I was able to kill both princes in two rounds. I was so afraid of them that I used inordinate amounts of firepower to remove them (which is one of their best uses).

The thing about this power is the combinations on the current list. If you have this plus a few Thousand Sons and some of the other nasties in the list I feel you can easily dominate most opponents until we get used to how to deal with this.

One other observation is that if your opponent gets to use this super cheap wargear the effects will be incredibly devastating. Far above what the actual cost is. In fact it will be so rewarding and cause so many problems that the sacrafice of the two princes will be worth it every time whether they are killed in one turn or not because you can move the rest of your army at leisure.

Orion

I will stick with lassh prince, it requires no explanation. The word 'Fzorgle' doesnt mean anything.

Fzorgle means everything. Show me in the rules where it specifically states it means nothing.

:-D

If I can have two scoring deamon Princes with Lash and flying for about 300p... I will always pick them.. the rest of my army has to deal with vehicles and must be totally focused to kill Mech Eldar.... With two of those flying monsters I dont need more Close Combat units and the rest will be shootie, shootie, shootie....

Compared to Nidzilla...The new Lash chaos army will not be second rate.... believe me....
for psychic scream the user must be within 18 inch.. and fear of the darkness means that you will only fail if you trow a 5 and 6 or two 6's on 3D6. All these anti psychic power things only mean that you cannot rely to much on your Lash power....

Just wondering, if you have say, a Hive Tyrant in a zilla army with gaunts, and you set it up so that the gaunts are put together in such a way that the tyrant (or Fex's) base can't fit through any gap in the unit, can the Tyrant still be lashed "out" behind the gaunts screening him?

I vote no, because you cannot legally move him by the movement rules.

If you moved him anyways, you couldn't "bunch up" other troops either (to directly quote the other debate about fzorgle)

Greets
Schepp himself

I'm pretty much with you and I'm going to guess the RAW will support this as well. Might we have found a potential counter to the Lash?

Well, nothing prevents the chaos player to simply move the Gaunts back to you and the Tyrant to his side after that. But you can make it a bit more difficult for the chaos player at least.

(Maybe GW has played that way and therefore adjusted the point costs like they did...hehe...höhöh...well...no...let's not be silly here...<sniff&gt

Greets
Schepp himself

Yes, but now it takes two lash's to accomplish the goal of one. And if you have lots of cheap squads (like lots of units of gaunts in a zilla list), you can effectively prevent the lash from getting at TMC's.

Yep.. thats possible... but I think in a real game it would not work... (most times) all the heavy bolters, autocannons etc. will shoot down the guants leaving enough space to Lash a MC.....

I actually pointed this out with an IG example some time ago. Using your own units to prevent movement of the important units is a very simple counter to Lash. Can't move through your own models.

With Tyranids, it's even easier and gives you way more of a reason to use gaunts than before (despite them being amazing already).

It either works or it doesn't, both of which are win-scenarios for you. People are wasting shooting on cheap gaunts, or they're not using their lash effectively (both wins).

And if you can severely limit his fzorgling, you make it even more dangerous for him to get within 24" (The kill zone of a dakkafex).

So, had a game today. Fzorgle is far better in pairs, and Eldrad>>fzorgle. Eldar are just *fudge*ing ridiculously good against new chaos. But many second tier armies stand no chance against the monstrosity that is the Fzorlgler.

I have Necrons and I have Tau and I have no answer for the Lash. It is unrealistic (and expensive) for me to have to change my entire Tau army into a mech Tau list just because of one 20pt psychic power. Necrons just get hosed.

I'm surprised that a Tau list that still isn't "Mech Tau" isn't going to have a lot of problems with other army lists aside from Lash Chaos armies. How'd you manage to survive vs. the Old Chaos that had Demon Bombs?

Likewise with Necrons, you have to play the range game, do a nice job and deepstrike a Lith near the lord and rapid fire gauss into him. You've got speed, you've got Destroyers (hopefully) run around and just fire at him, it's only a 3+ Save, enough shots will get 4 wounds on the DP.

My Tau list is a very strange list and I'll admit it is not perfect, however it does surprise people. I've got a markerlight army. The whole thing is based around the markerlight and all the benifit's I get from them. I never ran into a daemonbomb army (luck of the draw maybe) and I'm sure a drop pod army would ruin me, but we don't see very many pod lists not that Godzilla has taken hold in the Midwest. The one thing the list does well against is foot marines.

I'm not saying I have a great Tau army and Lash is ruining it, I'm saying I don't think I have any chance against lash with my Tau and I don't want to buy and paint 5 devil fish and a 3rd hammerhead.

As for Necrons, I don't see how they can avoid getting whole units sucked into HtH by the lash Princes very early in the game. Monoliths only last so long when everyone can field 9 obliterators.

I've played two games now with Lash, one against semi-mech eldar, and one against Sisters.

Against semi-mech eldar (without a seer), I was able to use Lash to win a couple of combats. And to push a squad of jetbikes away from the objective on the last turn. It was worth the points paid for it, but I don't know that it was broken, as the rest of my army castled pretty hard to stop him from picking me off piecemeal, and he was never really able to engage.

Second game, against sisters, I had a steed-sorcerer and a wing-princess. Wing-princess never used Lash. Either she was in combat, or only had line of sight on vehicles. Sorcerer was out of range on turn 1, rolled a '4' for distance on turn two (which was enough to bunch up some retributors for blastmaster shots, but not enough to pull them out of their 4+ cover, so whatever), took a perils test on turn 3, was in combat on turn 4, had the Lash deflected by Shield of Faith on turn 5, and on turn 6 was able to lash the two remaining non-scoring retributors into combat. Hardly game-breaking there...