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2013/04/30 15:49:15
Subject: Re:Battle of the Deathstars (Army Analysis on p.4, Game #1 on p.4, Game #2 on p.5)
Pretty much played out how I thought it would. Maybe a bit better for the paladins. I'll just pray that the cowardly Tau get a piece of the greater good up their plasma gun when the slightly less cowardly Eldar come to play.
2013/04/30 15:51:29
Subject: Battle of the Deathstars (Army Analysis on p.4, Game #1 on p.4, Game #2 on p.5)
1000 Rematch - Paladinstar Grey Knights vs Seer Council Deldar Part II
Because the first matchup between the 2 (battle report on p. 6) happened so quickly, I decided to give Grant a chance for redemption. He demanded a rematch and I was happy to go kick some more eldar a$$ again....I mean, to oblige.
BTW, this match isn't official as far as the tournament goes. Only the first matchup between them will count. The rematch is only for the sake of eldar pride (or shame).
Yikes! Hallucination is probably the worst power the knights can go up against. That power alone can literally win the game for eldar. Why? Because they can cause the knights to insta-kill themselves with their own force weapons, whether in assault or not! Just this power alone will make eldar a scary foe for the knights. Also, this time, there is no Misfortune that the space elves need to worry about. By going first, they are assured of being able to get off Fortune.
I expect this to be a much more competitive matchup between the two. As a matter of fact, I think Deldar will be the slight favorite here. They don't even have to make a move really to win the game. All they really need to do is to stay at a distance, keep on casting Hallucination and then watch the knights self-destruct as they commit hari-kari.
I deploy right at my deployment edge as well about 24" away from the enemy. I am safe for the time being against Hallucination because his farseers are in the rear.
Overview of our deployment.
I then roll to seize....and fail. But wait! Coteaz let's you re-roll the attempt to seize, so I roll again....
So after casting my psychic power (Prescience), the paladins move up. I make sure most of my guys are in range to shoot but still out of range of his farseer's psychic powers.
I then let it rip.
It was just awful for Deldar! I kill 5 warlocks. Then he had to do Look-Out-Sirs for his Baron because my psycannons would have insta-killed him. Unfortunately, the 2 closest guys to him were his 2 farseers and I end up killing both!
With that, he concedes yet again.
Score (VP's) - Deldar: 0, Grey Knights: 1000
Crushing Victory by the Paladinstar Grey Knights!!!
Wow. 1 special rule from my character changed everything. This is about as one-sided as it gets. Just when I thought I had set a record for fastest game in their last matchup, I manage to break that record this game. Just wow.
No evaluation of the deathstars is complete without including the Ork Nob Bikers. Nob bikers was the quintessential deathstar ever since 4th edition when you could wrap wounds around the guys so that they became nearly indestructible. In 5th they were still one of the most dominant deathstars, though Draigowing had overtook them as the quintessential deathstar in that edition. Now in 6th, they have dropped off somewhat in terms of power, especially after the 6th Ed. FAQ's took away wound allocation shenanigans. However, IMO they are still a highly competitive deathstar even though they have lost their uber status. The question now becomes: how does one of the oldest deathstars stack up compared to the newer breeds of ultra-shooty deathstars?
To find out, I have a series of test games with the nob bikers facing all 3 armies - the Paladinstar grey knights, Pinkstar daemons and Farsight Tau. Can they compete? Game #1 coming right up.
BTW, for the next 2 ork battles, SabrX will be my sparring partner. He will be playing the orks.
This is probably the worst possible matchup for the Ork Nob Bikers, especially now that FNP was FAQ'd to not work against Force Weapons. The grey knights are superior in both shooting and assault. Psychic powers such as Prescience just brings them over-the-top, whereas Foreboding essentially gives them another turn of shooting. Unless the nob bikers get lucky with the dice (or the knights roll terribly), I just can't see them beating the paladinstar in a straight-up fight.
Fine, if that's how he wants to play it, I'd be more than happy to oblige. After casting their psychic powers, my knights advance (but more towards the flanks rather than directly) and then run 5".
Turn 2
Spoiler:
Orks 2
My opponent wants nothing to do with my shooting. He scoots his nob bikers back to make sure I won't be able to shoot them.
Grey Knights 2
Still playing the waiting game, I see. Fine, I will give some motivation to play like real orks.
I advance my paladins and then run them 5-6". I make sure they are about 18-19" away from his bikers. This should be enough to draw them out, yet my Overwatch may take him out of assault range (or so that was my plan).
Turn 3
Spoiler:
Orks 3
The temptation is just too great. He takes the bait.
He shoots at me and I fail my 1st 4 saves!
1 hammerdin dies and my Grandmaster takes 2W.
SabrX then calls the Waagh. Overwatch takes down 2 nob bikers via Look-Out-Sirs as well as put 1W on his 2nd warboss.
He makes it into combat thanks to the Waagh and challenges my Grandmaster. I decline and my halberds force weapon his Warboss to death. The rest of our guys cannot make it into combat because there is no one in base anymore and so we both just consolidate in.
Fortunately for my opponent, his nob bikers make their Morale test at LD6.
Score (VP's) - Grey Knights: 265, Orks: 173
Grey Knights 3
This time, the knights really take it to the orks. Grandmaster challenges his warboss. However, I fluff my attacks, only managing to wound once. I then fail my psychic test to activate the force weapon and his warboss pounds the Grandmaster into the ground.
Force weapons then kill 4 nobs. The rest of his guys cannot fight because now there is no one in base with my paladins.
I then break the bikers, who are on the verge of running off the table.
Turn 4
Spoiler:
Orks 4
Orks would fail morale and run off the table.
Score (VP's) - Grey Knights: 1000, Orks: 290
Crushing Victory by the Paladinstar Grey Knights!!!
Yep. This game turned out pretty much how I had expected. And that was with my paladins not really even getting a chance to shoot and letting the bikers charge them. This is definitely a rock-paper-scissors matchup. Paladins will just own nob bikers unless dice is extreme.
Game #6 - 1000 Farsight-Bomb Tau vs Seer Council Deldar
For the seer council battles, I played against my friend and local Deldar expert, Grant (aka SonsofGrant here on dakka). His seer council is much feared in our area. So far I have played against them 4 times and I can honestly say that I hate Eldar, I hate Rues of Warding and I hate the seer council.
This is not going to be an easy game for Tau. Due to the mobility of deldar, the Tau are only going to get 1 chance to shoot and Overwatch before the deldar are on them in assault. Though Invisibility is negligable, deldar has 2 vicious powers in Misfortune and Prescience. Moreover, the fact that Tau has so many models in the unit means that warlock destructors, especially when combined with Misfortune, can potentially do a lot of damage through sheer volume (plus the fact that they bypass gun drone saves).
However, it is still winnable for them. If they can manage to survive assault, a feat entirely possible with Stubborn LD 10, 1 suit to soak up wounds with his 2+ save and Hit-&-Run, then they should be able to shoot the eldar again and again. It then becomes a question of who has more resiliency - Fortuned eldar against Tau shooting or Stubborn Tau against deldar assault (with no power weapons). Who has the better volume-of-attacks and who has the most durability will win out in this battle of attrition. Although it will probably be close, I will give Tau the benefit of the doubt in what will probably be at best a minor victory.
I played Tau in this game and I wasn't really sure how to deploy against Deldar. I really can't hide from them so I figured I'd just deploy up as close as possible so I'd have more space to retreat. I also decided to deploy by the LOS-blocking ruins so that I can jump to the other side if necessary.
Crap....I'm not really sure what to do. I know I can't run away from them, not with their 12" move and Fleet. So I decide to do something very unconventional for Tau....I decide that I'm going to assault!
The suit with the Puretide Chip makes the entire unit Stubborn. I also twin-link my guns and opt to ignore cover.
I then move towards deldar, making sure to put my Iridium Armor suit up front to absorb their Overwatch.
Crap! My shooting is full of fail as I only manage to take out 2 warlocks (I believe one with destructor). Actually, my shooting was ok. It's just that his Fortuned saves were phenomenal.
I then charge. Overwatch kills 1 gun drone and puts 1W on my Iridium bodyguard.
Assault. I forget about Invisibility, which means I will be hitting on 5's. Actually, it didn't really matter since my WS2 bodyguards would be hitting his WS5 warlocks on 5's anyways.
Farsight issues a challenge. The Baron is too far away to accept so he declines. I then choose one of his farseers to sit on the sidelines for this battle.
Combat is actually alright as I put 2W on his other farseer and he kills 1 and a half bodyguards.
However, what I didn't expect was Precision Strikes. Grant uses Precision Strikes to take out my bodyguard with the Puretide chip to get rid of my Stubborness (on my next turn). This is also one of the 2 models with Hit & Run.
We then both Hit & Run out of combat (I H&R first, not that it would probably have mattered).
VP's - Deldar: 186, Tau: 213
Turn 2
Spoiler:
Deldar 2
Gulp! This turn is going to hurt as he casts Doom and Misfortune on me and Prescience and Fortune on himself. He would continue to cast these powers every turn. He repositions his warlocks with destructors.
Damn! His shooting is deadly as he uses Precision shots to take out Shadowsun. He also kills 1 normal suit and 4 gun drones and put 1W (from Look-Out-Sirs! by Shadowsun) on Farsight.
He then attempts to charge.
What my shooting failed to do, my Overwatch accomplishes. Even with only firing 1 plasma from each suit, I take out 4 Fortuned jetbikes!
He then makes the charge.
And wipes out everyone but Farsight and 1 of my special suits. I fail to do anything to him. Fortunately I am still stubborn (until the beginning of my next turn). Unfortunately, he uses Precision Strikes to take out my last Hit & Run bodyguard.
Wow. Deldar Precision Strikes/shots really screwed the Tau over. I did not anticipate how big a role it would play. Since every warlock is a character, that means he could allocate all to hit rolls of 6's for the entire unit. He then used that to snipe out all my important suits, first taking out the Puretide suit, then Shadowsun and finally the other Hit & Run suit. I was powerless to do anything against it. Because of Precision Strikes (and psychic powers like Misfortune), this turned out to be a worse matchup for Tau than I had thought. Perhaps the seer council is the hammer to the Tau scissors. It's definitely a tough matchup for shooty deathstars because they've got basically only 1 turn to shoot before the council is assaulting.
The current standings after the 6-game tournament are:
Tau 2-1 2423VP's
Deldar 2-1 2000VP's
Grey Knights 1-2 1970VP's
Daemons 1-2 1196VP's
As I said in the beginning, if 1st and 2nd place are tied in terms of Win-Loss, then they will have a "Sudden Death" game to determine the winner of the "Best Deathstar" tournament. So there will be a rematch between Deldar and Tau for the Championship.
This message was edited 12 times. Last update was at 2013/05/07 06:12:27
I'm very curious to the outcome of the Nob Bikers vs. Tau myself. Hope that one comes down the pipeline jy2. (also the GK vs nob bikers, with the force weapons for that matter)
soft spot for the greenskins..
cuz dey da best.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/04/30 16:58:51
skyfi wrote: I'm very curious to the outcome of the Nob Bikers vs. Tau myself. Hope that one comes down the pipeline jy2. (also the GK vs nob bikers, with the force weapons for that matter)
soft spot for the greenskins..
cuz dey da best.
Agreed!
I may have to resurrect my biker lists.
Live Ork, Be Ork. or D'Ork!
2013/04/30 20:22:55
Subject: Battle of the Deathstars (Army Analysis on p.4, Game #1 on p.4, Game #2 on p.5)
skyfi wrote: I'm very curious to the outcome of the Nob Bikers vs. Tau myself. Hope that one comes down the pipeline jy2. (also the GK vs nob bikers, with the force weapons for that matter)
soft spot for the greenskins..
cuz dey da best.
i use a 902 point farsun deathstar in my 1500pt list and this last weekend i faced a nob biker unit, it wasnt tooled out to the nines but I handily destroyed it. In one round of shooting i killed 4 nob bikers and wounded the warboss. You can check my batrep vs them here.
Haha, I am enjoying watching the poll fluctuate as we see how well tau has been doing. It was pretty low for a while but now most people seem to think they are going to take it. I really want to see the eldar list in action. I know they will be able to catch tau by turn two but will tau be able to kill enough units before this happens?
On another note, because this hasn't come up yet. If you use your vector thrusters to hit and run are you going to use the I2 of the suit or the I5 of farsight? The rules for hit and run say the UNIT takes the initiative test and the rules for characteristic tests state you use the highest characteristic unless noted. But one would think that the one with the vector thrust is the one who takes the test. I think this will be extremely important because eldar is going to catch tau but will most likely only kill the drones and a suit or two, if tau hits and run they can probably kill a ton of jet bikes with rapid fire plasma.
Just musing, who would win in a challenge farsight or farseer?
2013/04/30 23:37:38
Subject: Battle of the Deathstars (Army Analysis on p.4, Game #1 on p.4, Game #2 on p.5)
skyfi wrote: I'm very curious to the outcome of the Nob Bikers vs. Tau myself. Hope that one comes down the pipeline jy2. (also the GK vs nob bikers, with the force weapons for that matter)
soft spot for the greenskins..
cuz dey da best.
i use a 902 point farsun deathstar in my 1500pt list and this last weekend i faced a nob biker unit, it wasnt tooled out to the nines but I handily destroyed it. In one round of shooting i killed 4 nob bikers and wounded the warboss. You can check my batrep vs them here.
well 5 bikers and a boss are about 515 points kitted out vs 900 points of shooting. add another boss thats 660 points leaving room for 240 points of bikes (almost 5 bare bones ablative, could get 5 if drop a couple options from original 5)... Not to take away from your victory, just pointing out that it wasn't exactly a 1000 v 1000 of just these 2 units. in your example your opponent if having a real deathstar instead of a mini one, would of had 5 more nob bikers, an unwounded boss, and the boss you wounded... and if you dropped the painboy early in all of that, then whatever extra damage done by the loss of FNP would of been negated.
One of my early opponents in 6th (one of the friends who got me back into hobby torward end of 5th ed) was an eldar player, and we worked out how many nob bikers a turn 3 guided war walkers with scatter lasers could kill, then 6, and 9. It taught me the importance of either not running head on into that kind of shooting with only 6 bikes... but when you got 12.... vroom vroom. (edit not that i think running head on into that shooting is the best plan, I don't. just stressing the resiliency of 12 bikes vs 6)
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/04/30 23:38:29
gpfunk wrote: Pretty much played out how I thought it would. Maybe a bit better for the paladins. I'll just pray that the cowardly Tau get a piece of the greater good up their plasma gun when the slightly less cowardly Eldar come to play.
I think one of the factors that needs to be taken into consideration in the matchup between the 2 is terrain. Here, the terrain benefited Tau as it made it near impossible for paladins to attempt any type of assault. It also guaranteed 2+ cover for Tau because they could just jump around it and thus always get cover. If terrain wasn't a large impassable piece, paladins could have moved through it, thus forcing Tau away and maybe even taking away their cover. So terrain definitely plays a large part in these matchups and Tau definitely takes advantage of it best.
Hammernator wrote: Hmm, greater good my ass! Let's make something that can actually catch them:
=999
It's fast, durable, has some supportive shooting and has a charge that probably won't leave anything standing
(I threw in the teleport homer because you could drop the ICs and replace them with with dual CML Terminators)
It is a decent deathstar. The only problem is that, for the purposes of these "experimental" duels, you need to have someone on the table at the end of the turn or your army is tabled. Thus, since the Caestus is a flyer and needs to start in Reserves, you need to have someone deployed on the table. This means that you would have to break up your deathstar. That is probably the only issue I see with it. Otherwise, it will perform quite similarly to the Spartan Hamminator deathstar (2 characters + 8 TH/SS terminators in a Land Raider Spartan, but at least they can all start on the table).
Lt. Coldfire wrote: This is a cool idea. I look forward to the Deldar Council batrep
My predictions:
vs Paladinstar - lose.
vs Tau - lose.
vs Pinkstar - win.
skyfi wrote: I'm very curious to the outcome of the Nob Bikers vs. Tau myself. Hope that one comes down the pipeline jy2. (also the GK vs nob bikers, with the force weapons for that matter)
soft spot for the greenskins..
cuz dey da best.
Unless more people put in their requests, that's what it may come down to. I'm quite curious myself to see how they matchup. I think nob bikers will give them a good fight.
skyfi wrote: I'm very curious to the outcome of the Nob Bikers vs. Tau myself. Hope that one comes down the pipeline jy2. (also the GK vs nob bikers, with the force weapons for that matter)
soft spot for the greenskins..
cuz dey da best.
i use a 902 point farsun deathstar in my 1500pt list and this last weekend i faced a nob biker unit, it wasnt tooled out to the nines but I handily destroyed it. In one round of shooting i killed 4 nob bikers and wounded the warboss. You can check my batrep vs them here.
I don't think there is any comparison. A hardcore Farsight-bomb will beat the living snot out of a mini-nob biker list. However, you pit a fully tooled-up mega-biker squad and it's going to be a much closer matchup. If I was Tau, I'd be worried when I see 12 bikers come my way.
lambsandlions wrote: Haha, I am enjoying watching the poll fluctuate as we see how well tau has been doing. It was pretty low for a while but now most people seem to think they are going to take it. I really want to see the eldar list in action. I know they will be able to catch tau by turn two but will tau be able to kill enough units before this happens?
On another note, because this hasn't come up yet. If you use your vector thrusters to hit and run are you going to use the I2 of the suit or the I5 of farsight? The rules for hit and run say the UNIT takes the initiative test and the rules for characteristic tests state you use the highest characteristic unless noted. But one would think that the one with the vector thrust is the one who takes the test. I think this will be extremely important because eldar is going to catch tau but will most likely only kill the drones and a suit or two, if tau hits and run they can probably kill a ton of jet bikes with rapid fire plasma.
Just musing, who would win in a challenge farsight or farseer?
Well, Tau only needs to beat Deldar and then they've clinched the title. I believe it is a feat that is entirely possible, and I'd probably set the odds at 60/40 in favor of Tau.
Originally, I thought that it is tested on the model, but after going over the rules again, I think it is tested using the highest Initiative of the unit. Basically, the H&R USR says the unit takes the test. Then on p. 7, it says: "when a single test is required for the whole unit, use the highest relevant characteristic in the unit." Thus, they should be testing on Farsight's I5.
well 5 bikers and a boss are about 515 points kitted out vs 900 points of shooting. add another boss thats 660 points leaving room for 240 points of bikes (almost 5 bare bones ablative, could get 5 if drop a couple options from original 5)... Not to take away from your victory, just pointing out that it wasn't exactly a 1000 v 1000 of just these 2 units. in your example your opponent if having a real deathstar instead of a mini one, would of had 5 more nob bikers, an unwounded boss, and the boss you wounded... and if you dropped the painboy early in all of that, then whatever extra damage done by the loss of FNP would of been negated.
One of my early opponents in 6th (one of the friends who got me back into hobby torward end of 5th ed) was an eldar player, and we worked out how many nob bikers a turn 3 guided war walkers with scatter lasers could kill, then 6, and 9. It taught me the importance of either not running head on into that kind of shooting with only 6 bikes... but when you got 12.... vroom vroom. (edit not that i think running head on into that shooting is the best plan, I don't. just stressing the resiliency of 12 bikes vs 6)
I totally agree my comparision was not very good since it was not a death star, but i didnt claim it was either. He didnt have cybork bodies just 5 bikers with a painboy and the boss so all he got save wise was fnp against the super deadly stuff.
HIT AND RUN - i agree with JY2, i used hit and run in a fight this weekend vs necrons, and i used farsights init, until he split off then i was using shadowsuns and she failed....sigh.....
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2013/05/01 00:48:44
As far as a deathstar we haven't considered, this one might have some promise!
Highly mobile due to the ghostwalk mantle I can't name a unit in the game it wouldn't mulch in assault. Decent shooting with the 4 staves of light Majority T5 Lots of +2 armor to rely on 6 sets of MSS to contend with
Overlord 205 WS/MSS/SW/PS/RO Obyron 160 Lord 115 WS/MSS/SW/PS Lord 115 WS/MSS/SW/PS Lord 115 WS/MSS/SW/PS Lord 115 WS/MSS/SW/PS Lord 115 WS/MSS/SW/PS Cryptek 40 Eternity, Chronometron Cryptek 25 Basic Cryptek 25 Basic Cryptek 25 Basic Cryptek 25 Basic
Comes out to 1080 points
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/05/01 14:58:41
Bedouin Dynasty: 10000 pts
The Silver Lances: 4000 pts
The Custodes Winter Watch 4000 pts
MajorStoffer wrote:
...
Sternguard though, those guys are all about kicking ass. They'd chew bubble gum as well, but bubble gum is heretical. Only tau chew gum.
2013/05/01 01:05:41
Subject: Re:Battle of the Deathstars (Army Analysis on p.4, Game #1 on p.4, Game #2 on p.5)
jy2 wrote: I think one of the factors that needs to be taken into consideration in the matchup between the 2 is terrain. Here, the terrain benefited Tau as it made it near impossible for paladins to attempt any type of assault. It also guaranteed 2+ cover for Tau because they could just jump around it and thus always get cover. If terrain wasn't a large impassable piece, paladins could have moved through it, thus forcing Tau away and maybe even taking away their cover. So terrain definitely plays a large part in these matchups and Tau definitely takes advantage of it best.
Believe me, I did. Large, Impassible and blocks LOS? That's Tau heaven. It would've been a far more even playing field if there was only area terrain. Think you'll do another that doesn't heavily favor the Tau so much?
2013/05/01 01:59:55
Subject: Re:Battle of the Deathstars (Army Analysis on p.4, Game #1 on p.4, Game #2 on p.5)
gpfunk wrote: It would've been a far more even playing field if there was only area terrain. Think you'll do another that doesn't heavily favor the Tau so much?
To be completely honest, I'd say if a table has only area terrain, then it wasn't set up very well. Add in the fact that the Tau deathstar can out-range everything else, they can just deploy (or move on turn 1) by any LOS blocking terrain...which there should be at least some on the table.
What I'm not seeing is the chance for Tau to win against the Deldar Council. 2++ re-rollable can theoretically weather the entirety of Tau's shooting (50/50 chance to kill just the Baron)...the one turn they'll have before getting caught in combat.
There's also the instant-win button of Hallucination, which one of the Farseers has a decent chance of getting. 2/3 chance to pin the unit or disallow shooting for the turn? With no psychic defense?
I'd put the Tau/Deldar Council at 70/30, in favor of the Eldar. If the Baron fails his 2++ rerollable early on, if Shadowsun manages to snipe out one of the Farseers (I believe she gets precision hits on a 5+), or some other extremely unlikely event happens (the Farseer fails to cast Fortune, or if the unit is somehow pinned by the Gun Drones, etc) then the Tau could win.
2013/05/01 02:24:27
Subject: Re:Battle of the Deathstars (Army Analysis on p.4, Game #1 on p.4, Game #2 on p.5)
Asmodai Asmodean wrote: They don't get a 2+ cover rerollable because the Tau bomb has Ignores Cover.
Yeah, but The Baron has a 2++ from his shadowfield. It's only a single model with a 2++, but it's still enough to absorb a lot of firepower. The nice thing that Tau have going for them is that all of the Crisis Suit weapons should insta-gib him at Toughness 3.
I also forgot to cast my vote for the bonus deathmatch. I think the Khorne Dog (Flesh Hound) deathstar could be good against the Tau. The Preferred Enemy (Orks) thing kind of pushes it over the edge against the Nob Bikers - just those few extra wounds can make the difference.
2013/05/01 03:17:11
Subject: Re:Battle of the Deathstars (Army Analysis on p.4, Game #1 on p.4, Game #2 on p.5)
Yeah, but The Baron has a 2++ from his shadowfield. It's only a single model with a 2++, but it's still enough to absorb a lot of firepower. The nice thing that Tau have going for them is that all of the Crisis Suit weapons should insta-gib him at Toughness 3.
I also forgot to cast my vote for the bonus deathmatch. I think the Khorne Dog (Flesh Hound) deathstar could be good against the Tau. The Preferred Enemy (Orks) thing kind of pushes it over the edge against the Nob Bikers - just those few extra wounds can make the difference.
Sadly, it is really going to matter who goes first, like so many of these matches. Because you need a turn to activate your powers if you don't get that turn you are kinda boned. If tau goes first it is a 1 in 6 chance the clone field will fall which is not a lot and with the baron out of the way the rest of the unit won't fair too well.If Eldar goes first then the baron gets fortune and it is a 1 in 36 chance of failing the save, so the unit will take a lot more shots before anything starts getting hurt.
2013/05/01 06:29:40
Subject: Re:Battle of the Deathstars (Army Analysis on p.4, Game #1 on p.4, Game #2 on p.5)
skyfi wrote: I'm very curious to the outcome of the Nob Bikers vs. Tau myself. Hope that one comes down the pipeline jy2. (also the GK vs nob bikers, with the force weapons for that matter)
soft spot for the greenskins..
cuz dey da best.
Agreed!
I may have to resurrect my biker lists.
DO IT!
iGuy91 wrote: As far as a deathstar we haven't considered, this one might have some promise!
Highly mobile due to the ghostwalk mantle
I can't name a unit in the game it wouldn't mulch in assault.
Decent shooting with the 4 staves of light
Majority T5
Lots of +2 armor to rely on
6 sets of MSS to contend with
Overlord 205 WS/MSS/SW/PS/RO Obyron 160
Lord 115 WS/MSS/SW Lord 115 WS/MSS/SW Lord 115 WS/MSS/SW Lord 115 WS/MSS/SW Lord 115 WS/MSS/SW Cryptek 40 Eternity, Chronometron
Cryptek 25 Basic
Cryptek 25 Basic
Cryptek 25 Basic
Cryptek 25 Basic
Comes out to 1080 points
My concern about your list is the lack of 3++ saves. With only 1 guy to tank incoming AP 1/2 shots, your list is going to be hurting against the Farsight-bomb and potentially the grey knights and their rending psycannons. And if you're tanking with your Overlord, you run the risk of losing your Res Orb should he go down.
BTW, you may want to double-check the cost of your Lords. It looks too expensive considering you don't have phase shifters on them.
What do you think of my version of the Necron Royal Court (or the one listed on p. 2 of this thread):
It's got 2 3++ models to tank incoming AP 1/2 shots. It's got 7 MSS guys and it can also teleport around thanks to the Veil of Darkness. I like the Destroyer Lord because he brings a little more mobility to the unit and can split off if necessary. Moreover, he gives the unit Prefered Enenmy. The 2 downsides to this list is that, just like your list, the Res Orb Overlord is at risk if he does the tanking for the unit. Also, the Veil-tek is vulnerable to Precision Shots.
I may actually give one of these versions of the Necron Royal Court a try in a Bonus Deathmatch.
jy2 wrote: I think one of the factors that needs to be taken into consideration in the matchup between the 2 is terrain. Here, the terrain benefited Tau as it made it near impossible for paladins to attempt any type of assault. It also guaranteed 2+ cover for Tau because they could just jump around it and thus always get cover. If terrain wasn't a large impassable piece, paladins could have moved through it, thus forcing Tau away and maybe even taking away their cover. So terrain definitely plays a large part in these matchups and Tau definitely takes advantage of it best.
Believe me, I did. Large, Impassible and blocks LOS? That's Tau heaven. It would've been a far more even playing field if there was only area terrain. Think you'll do another that doesn't heavily favor the Tau so much?
If I do, it wouldn't count it towards the tournament. Only the first match will be official.
But honestly, if the deathstar can't play through unfavorable terrain or other conditions (i.e. needs to go first, etc.), then it isn't a very good deathstar. All of these deathstars need to be able to function no matter what terrain or conditions they have to play under. That is a sign of a truly "balanced" deathstar. If they can't, then IMO they aren't a viable deathstar.
gpfunk wrote: It would've been a far more even playing field if there was only area terrain. Think you'll do another that doesn't heavily favor the Tau so much?
To be completely honest, I'd say if a table has only area terrain, then it wasn't set up very well. Add in the fact that the Tau deathstar can out-range everything else, they can just deploy (or move on turn 1) by any LOS blocking terrain...which there should be at least some on the table.
What I'm not seeing is the chance for Tau to win against the Deldar Council. 2++ re-rollable can theoretically weather the entirety of Tau's shooting (50/50 chance to kill just the Baron)...the one turn they'll have before getting caught in combat.
There's also the instant-win button of Hallucination, which one of the Farseers has a decent chance of getting. 2/3 chance to pin the unit or disallow shooting for the turn? With no psychic defense?
I'd put the Tau/Deldar Council at 70/30, in favor of the Eldar. If the Baron fails his 2++ rerollable early on, if Shadowsun manages to snipe out one of the Farseers (I believe she gets precision hits on a 5+), or some other extremely unlikely event happens (the Farseer fails to cast Fortune, or if the unit is somehow pinned by the Gun Drones, etc) then the Tau could win.
Asmodai Asmodean wrote: They don't get a 2+ cover rerollable because the Tau bomb has Ignores Cover.
Right, Tau will ignore cover saves thanks to their Multi-Spectrum Sensor Suite. However, re-rollable 3+ is still very good (against the missile pods and gun drones) and re-rollable 4++ (against plasma & fusions) is still respectable.
However, this is why I favor Tau slightly:
1. Baron won't be able to tank incoming shots because he will be in the rear. He is too slow compared to the bikers. They can turbo-boost 36" while the Baron will be all the way in the back, thus forcing them to conga-line.
2. It's not easy to beat Tau in assault now. They will be stubborn due to the Puretide Engram Chip. They have Hit & Run because of vectored retro-thrusters and they've got a guy with 2+ (Iridium Armor) that can absorb eldar attacks.
Basically, they will get out of combat and can then shoot the space elves again. It'll be close but I think Tau can win this war of attrition.
Hallucination may play a big factor in this game if Eldar can get it.
Asmodai Asmodean wrote: They don't get a 2+ cover rerollable because the Tau bomb has Ignores Cover.
Yeah, but The Baron has a 2++ from his shadowfield. It's only a single model with a 2++, but it's still enough to absorb a lot of firepower. The nice thing that Tau have going for them is that all of the Crisis Suit weapons should insta-gib him at Toughness 3.
I also forgot to cast my vote for the bonus deathmatch. I think the Khorne Dog (Flesh Hound) deathstar could be good against the Tau. The Preferred Enemy (Orks) thing kind of pushes it over the edge against the Nob Bikers - just those few extra wounds can make the difference.
I'm interested in seeing how the Khorne-dogs do as well. I will try to fit in a game with them as well.
Yeah, but The Baron has a 2++ from his shadowfield. It's only a single model with a 2++, but it's still enough to absorb a lot of firepower. The nice thing that Tau have going for them is that all of the Crisis Suit weapons should insta-gib him at Toughness 3.
I also forgot to cast my vote for the bonus deathmatch. I think the Khorne Dog (Flesh Hound) deathstar could be good against the Tau. The Preferred Enemy (Orks) thing kind of pushes it over the edge against the Nob Bikers - just those few extra wounds can make the difference.
Sadly, it is really going to matter who goes first, like so many of these matches. Because you need a turn to activate your powers if you don't get that turn you are kinda boned. If tau goes first it is a 1 in 6 chance the clone field will fall which is not a lot and with the baron out of the way the rest of the unit won't fair too well.If Eldar goes first then the baron gets fortune and it is a 1 in 36 chance of failing the save, so the unit will take a lot more shots before anything starts getting hurt.
I actually feel that these deathstars aren't as dependent on 1st turn as most people think. One of the good things about them IMO is that they are actually really balanced deathstars. They can easily survive an alpha strike from enemy units and still function on a high level in terms of output.
The reason why the Pinkstar lost so badly against Tau wasn't really because they went 2nd IMO. Rather, it was because of poor deployment on my part and some bad rolling.
Oh....they all have phase Shifters in that list I think. Yeah, they paid for them, i forgot to write them down. My mistake
Bedouin Dynasty: 10000 pts
The Silver Lances: 4000 pts
The Custodes Winter Watch 4000 pts
MajorStoffer wrote:
...
Sternguard though, those guys are all about kicking ass. They'd chew bubble gum as well, but bubble gum is heretical. Only tau chew gum.
2013/05/01 15:18:22
Subject: Battle of the Deathstars (Army Analysis/Game #1 on p.4, Game #2 on p.5)
The biggest issue with the tau farsight bomb is when they flee off the board. That is still the best way to defeat it and the route my ig would take everytime.
TK - 2012 40K GT Record 18-5
4th in 2nd bracket Feast of Blades 2012 (IG/SoB); 4th Overall Midwest Massacre (IG/SW); 5th Overall Indy Open (IG); Final 16 Adepticon Open (IG)
TK - 2013 40K GT Record 24-4
Best General Indy Open (Crons/CSM)
Top 5! Bugeater GT (TauDar)
Final 4 Nova Invitational (Eldau)
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On reading the pinkstar results, I have to say that I think this is a bit misleading as a battle of deathstars.
Having more threats is a pretty big advantage, it's one of the main reasons that deathstars don't dominate games. So having the Lord of Change present an entirely different threat profile than the horrors is pretty significant.
As a side note, I also think it's somewhat telling that the battle of 6th ed deathstars seems to be all about shooting.
Tyranid Prime
-Adrenal Glands, Toxin Sacs, Regeneration, LW/BS, Devourer
Only comes in at 725 points, so point for point not as effective but I think it could handle quite a bit considering regen on 2 of the models and you can Los! lots of shots.
Any of the typical biomancy powers would be great for this deathstar, although Endurance being the best for the FnP, Iron arm probably has less utility since the average toughness would still be 6 even if HT gets +3 S/T. As I think of it, the ideal powers would probably be Endurance and Enfeeble. That way you could deal effectively with those pesky super tough units like bikers.
The dual TL-Devs are nastiness pretty much hitting and wounding every shot and if enfeebled, most of those Meq deathstars melt away. Also gives this deathstar a 24" threat range.
Just want to make sure you didn't miss this one for the "Deathstars for consideration"! Add Doom of Malan'Tai and a brood of Hive guard for point difference if you so choose!
As much as I want them to be (because tyranids are one of my favorite armies), but sorry, but none of the tyranid "ground" deathstars are viable all for the same reason - their lack of mobility. Sure, they can do a lot of damage when they get into combat, but the problem is, most of them will be dead by the time they do get into combat (or at least reduced to a not-very-effective unit by the time they reach combat). And for a deathstar, just 12 TL-S6 shots isn't very shooty at all.
The truth is that none of the walking tyranid deathstars can compete against a true deathstar army. They have neither the mobility nor the shooting to make up for it.
bodazoka wrote: 5 x Necron Lords with mind shackle scarabs, Warscythes, Tesseract labyrinths, Res orbs, Semp weaves and phase shifters.....
850 Points.
2+, 3++ with RP of a 4+, Mind Shackle means you kill yourself and if you survive the Labyrinth's make you roll = or under your wounds or be removed.
Only problem being slow movement and zero firepower.
That's only 5 guys with 1W each for 850-pts!?!
Sorry, iGuy91 posted a much better Necron deathstar above (or see my own Necron Royal Court on p.2).
iGuy91 wrote: Oh....they all have phase Shifters in that list I think. Yeah, they paid for them, i forgot to write them down. My mistake
No worries. Dropping 2 phase shifters will make them more viable for this experiment, though I really can't see them beating a shooty deathstar like Tau or the Pinkstar.
Tomb King wrote: The biggest issue with the tau farsight bomb is when they flee off the board. That is still the best way to defeat it and the route my ig would take everytime.
Yeah, if you can get them to flee off the board, that would be the best way to beat them.
But keep in mind, these deathstar deathmatches isn't about a deathstar versus an entire army. Rather, it is deathstar vs deathstar (or deathstar with a little support). I think triple-manticores in an IGarmy will do a number to the Farsight-bomb. However, if you're talking about deathstar vs deathstar, that isn't quite as easy to do against a Stubborn LD10 unit, not when most deathstars can't out-shoot them or even catch them in combat.
Redbeard wrote: On reading the pinkstar results, I have to say that I think this is a bit misleading as a battle of deathstars.
Having more threats is a pretty big advantage, it's one of the main reasons that deathstars don't dominate games. So having the Lord of Change present an entirely different threat profile than the horrors is pretty significant.
As a side note, I also think it's somewhat telling that the battle of 6th ed deathstars seems to be all about shooting.
Yeah, it's actually deathstar vs deathstar with a little support (if the deathstar doesn't quite go up to 1K).
Also, one of the reasons why the Pinkstar can have more threats is through the use of the Portaglyph to generate more units. IMO, this is a huge advantage for deathstar units (or for any army) because it gives you free units and now multiple threats and targets. The downside is that they are also units worth VP's, but they can be used to great tactical advantage as this match demonstrated - use them block off the opponent and to absorb Overwatch as well as to absorb attacks in Assault.
Shooty is good, but these deathstars have more than just shooting. Perhaps they are the new breed of deathstars - a shooty deathstar that is also highly resilient. Tau is hard to kill because you can't catch them, they can survive combat and they are getting 2+ cover if played correctly. The Pinkstar? Re-rollable 2++'s. 'Nuff said.
Tank hunter, monster hunter, furious charge, stubborn 1 per turn
Stealth shrouded
Infiltrate
Interceptor
3d6 thruster move
And I'm pretty sure there some stuff I've missed and its all under 400 pts
I would classify this as a mini-star. They're actually probably better in normal games with a balanced list, but they can't match the ferocity or resiliency of a true deathstar.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2013/05/01 20:23:21
.....Bay Area Open GT 2013 - Best Tyranids 
.....LVO GT 2014 Team Tournament - Best Generals
My Eldar exodite Dakka Blog 
(edit not that i think running head on into that shooting is the best plan, I don't. just stressing the resiliency of 12 bikes vs 6)
4000 pts
Mechanicus
Ravenwing
Deathwing
