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 Aszubaruzah Surn wrote:

Xenomancers wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Aszubaruzah Surn wrote:
Also, take into account that elite marine armies would be much smaller because they'd probably end up costing about 100 points per miniature. You'd literally deploy 20 marines in a 2000 point game.

I now want to check how many primarchs you should put against those 20 marines to have the same amount of points on each side. I guess marines seems very close to primarchs in power level now .

No one is asking for buffs to primarcs. Unless of marine base Str T and Int go up - then primachs and all HQ should be adjusted accordingly in cost.

My vision would be WS 5, BS 5, S 4, T 4, W 3, I 5 A 3 Ld 8 Sv 3+ base Marine.

Honestly I would hate to see marine stats go this way, and would rather see GW point out the game better.
small elite army's that you have to grind though( or kill easy under large numbers of heavy weapons due to there high points)
Erode away what fun I have In the game left, and push the fluff that the stats are supposed to represent to its limits.

Realy just don't want to see super marines, where every one is the equal to an autarch or a hereld of a chaos God.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Unless of marine base Str T and Int go up - then primachs and all HQ should be adjusted accordingly in cost.

What about daemon princes? What about Carnifex? What about Genestealers? What about 9/10th of the models in the game, actually?

Depends - no one is suggesting marines have MC stats. 1 on 1 a marine should still lose to a carifex or a daemon price - but a combat squad should be able to beat one with some losses probably - instead of just getting wrecked. Gene stealers on the other hand are also a pretty poor reflection of what they should be - they too can use buffs.

I'm thinking a marine should probably be something like

ws4 bs4 str 5 t4 w2 i4 a2 ld9 sv 3+/5+i


Bolters w str 4 with shred
relentless
rending CC attacks

Sergeants should have the same stats but have a few upgrade options that allow for split fire, tank hunter, monster hunter, Infiltrate.

2 heavy/ special per 5

cost? 35 points.

Need to be play tested - seems fair to me.

Xenomancer, I say leave them at S4 and give the chainsword the profile s+1 ap- so that it is actually worthwhile on assault Marines and sgts. And then maybe 33ppm?

To get the game to properly match its background, we'd need to overhaul the game entirely. We can make some improvements though.

WS3-WS6 is WAY too crowded, whereas WS7-WS10 is a desolate realm.

For instance, I could easily see Eldar and Marines get far higher WS than they have. A Chapter Master with WS8 base should not be out of place. WS5 for Astartes base.

 Xenomancers wrote:
but a combat squad should be able to beat one with some losses probably - instead of just getting wrecked.

A combat squad should beat a daemon prince? Why bother with becoming one then. Seems pretty weak to me. I mean, generic non-daemon marine HQ can wreck a combat squad without loosing an HP, why should daemon princes be unable to?
Gene stealers on the other hand are also a pretty poor reflection of what they should be - they too can use buffs.

 Xenomancers wrote:
ws4 bs4 str 5 t4 w2 i4 a2 ld9 sv 3+/5+i

The same invulnerable as terminators? Making Iron Halo and Rosarius basically useless? Just, why? They need no invulnerable.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Bolters w str 4 with shred

Shred for everybody with bolters, then.
Marines bolters are the same as everybody else.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

A combat squad should beat a daemon prince? Why bother with becoming one then. Seems pretty weak to me. I mean, generic non-daemon marine HQ can wreck a combat squad without loosing an HP, why should daemon princes be unable to?
Gene stealers on the other hand are also a pretty poor reflection of what they should be - they too can use buffs.

DP should definitely beat combat squad 1 on 1, but it should not be a smooth win. SM are very strong defensively.

The DP, with its S/T5, also needs buffs. It's pretty pathetic as it is. Remove its reliance on wings and psychic powers by nerfing them, and buff its baseline abilities.

The same invulnerable as terminators? Making Iron Halo and Rosarius basically useless? Just, why? They need no invulnerable.

Terminators are -weak-. They too need buffs. Rosarius and IH is still useful.

Shred for everybody with bolters, then.
Marines bolters are the same as everybody else.

Incorrect. Normal humans can't even lift Astartes bolters.

 Ashiraya wrote:
To get the game to properly match its background, we'd need to overhaul the game entirely. We can make some improvements though.

WS3-WS6 is WAY too crowded, whereas WS7-WS10 is a desolate realm.

For instance, I could easily see Eldar and Marines get far higher WS than they have. A Chapter Master with WS8 base should not be out of place. WS5 for Astartes base.

Indeed. Because why should and assassin be better at fighting than a chapter master with centuries of experience?

 Ashiraya wrote:
Remove its reliance on wings and psychic powers by nerfing them, and buff its baseline abilities.

I always thought wings should come with a disadvantage not to make them a no-brainer. It is not obvious what it should be for daemon princes because they are not made of real stuff, but for hive tyrants, that should definitely give them at least -1 T, because if you are going to FLY, you certainly need to have a light frame. If you are walking, you can therefore be much more robust.

 Ashiraya wrote:
Rosarius and IH is still useful.

Minimally so…

 Ashiraya wrote:
Incorrect. Normal humans can't even lift Astartes bolters.

Tell that to Harker .
They cannot unless they are very strong, or are wearing power armor, or have bionics, or …

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

I always thought wings should come with a disadvantage not to make them a no-brainer. It is not obvious what it should be for daemon princes because they are not made of real stuff, but for hive tyrants, that should definitely give them at least -1 T, because if you are going to FLY, you certainly need to have a light frame. If you are walking, you can therefore be much more robust.

Indeed. Or a nerf to their armour save.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

Minimally so…

According to the CSM codex, the difference between a 5++ and a 4++ for a HQ is ten points.

That is not too shabby, you just have to take it into account when pricing the model.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Tell that to Harker .
They cannot unless they are very strong, or are wearing power armor, or have bionics, or …

Harker is a one-of-a-kind in the entire galaxy.

I always thought wings should come with a disadvantage not to make them a no-brainer. It is not obvious what it should be for daemon princes because they are not made of real stuff, but for hive tyrants, that should definitely give them at least -1 T, because if you are going to FLY, you certainly need to have a light frame. If you are walking, you can therefore be much more robust

.

Perhaps rather than a straight up -1T give an upgrade for the same cost as wings to grant +1T that can be taken instead of wings( obviously not being able to take both at the same time)

 DoomShakaLaka wrote:

I always thought wings should come with a disadvantage not to make them a no-brainer. It is not obvious what it should be for daemon princes because they are not made of real stuff, but for hive tyrants, that should definitely give them at least -1 T, because if you are going to FLY, you certainly need to have a light frame. If you are walking, you can therefore be much more robust

.

Perhaps rather than a straight up -1T give an upgrade for the same cost as wings to grant +1T that can be taken instead of wings( obviously not being able to take both at the same time)

They have their 2+ save upgrade that they can take instead of wings, right?

Seems that is not enough, unfortunately. Wings are just too good.

Tbh I think this is a problem with the flyer/FMC rules. Wings grant mobility, that is cool. They also grant way too much survivability.

 Ashiraya wrote:
Harker is a one-of-a-kind in the entire galaxy.

Yes. But he is carrying a heavy bolter.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
Harker is a one-of-a-kind in the entire galaxy.

Yes. But he is carrying a heavy bolter.

Aye. Without ammo, mind you, because his loader carries it. It's also not awfully large for a HB. Looks like a mini-HB to me (compare to the one used by heavy weapons teams)

As said, he is also one-of-a-kind. What he does should not be considered a standard in any shape or form for anyone else.

I think it's okay they did not write 'too heavy for any mortal man to lift except Harker'.

I'll agree to being more elite when eldar get squatted

 Ashiraya wrote:
It's also not awfully large for a HB. Looks like a mini-HB to me

You seem desperate to diminish Harker. Humans can use Astartes bolters, just deal with it.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

You seem desperate to diminish Harker.

You seem desperate to praise him.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Humans can use Astartes bolters, just deal with it.

I'll take the word of GW over your word on this one.

 Ashiraya wrote:
I'll take the word of GW over your word on this one.

But what about when they say outliers? Do you still take their word then? Like when they give an official size for space marines for a lottery?

A few changes I'd like to see for SM

Remove the limit on bulky models gaining scout + stealth for ravenguard that way ASM can fully use their chapter tactics.

Iron hands 6+ fnp changes to 5+ or it becomes stackable.

Narthecium grants 4+ fnp OR stays 5+ and lets you choose wound allocation.

Chainswords become s+1 ap-

Imperial Fists chapter tactics twin linked bolter weapons replaced with turning their bolters to salvo 2/3 and heavy bolters salvo3/5.

Ultramarines can choose up to two tactical doctrines per turn to use, and they become unlimited use. (Calgar lets you use all 3 in a turn).

Orbital bombardment becomes multi-use OR becomes a purchaseable weapon for vehicles and HQs similar to HK missiles.


Salamanders chapter tactics allows any bolter weapon to be upgraded to a combi-flamer/ replaced with a hand flamer for +5pts.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
But what about when they say outliers? Do you still take their word then?

They didn't.

Like when they give an official size for space marines for a lottery?

Ah yes, the 7' lottery Marine.

Immediately followed by the BL newsletter with a 8' Marine.

 Ashiraya wrote:
Ah yes, the 7' lottery Marine.

Immediately followed by the BL newsletter with a 8' Marine.

So you will take GW's word, right?

 DoomShakaLaka wrote:
Xenomancer, I say leave them at S4 and give the chainsword the profile s+1 ap- so that it is actually worthwhile on assault Marines and sgts. And then maybe 33ppm?

Assault marines should probably cost about the same - chainsword should give CC shred to make them worth while!

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
Ah yes, the 7' lottery Marine.

Immediately followed by the BL newsletter with a 8' Marine.

So you will take GW's word, right?

Aye.

 DoomShakaLaka wrote:
Xenomancer, I say leave them at S4 and give the chainsword the profile s+1 ap- so that it is actually worthwhile on assault Marines and sgts. And then maybe 33ppm?

Chainswords with a purpose?! Brilliant!

Though honestly i would rather them be slightly cheaper and give the chain sword shred.

Honestly the 4 across the board stats i think is fine. its above average and makes sense. I think 2 wounds would be better for a slight points increase. but not much else needed otherwise you are literally running around with captain level dudes.
I think it would be WAY more interesting to increase stats based on what kind of Vets they get upgraded to. like Sternguard gets a +1 BS instead of a WS, while Vanguard gets a +1 to WS and so on. and the generic +1 attack for both.
Ether that or instead of increasing stats you can give them Some kind of Preferred enemy which would make sense for vet type things.

 Desubot wrote:
I think 2 wounds would be better for a slight points increase. but not much else needed otherwise you are literally running around with captain level dudes.

Well, the point is to make Space Marines slightly above the level of Imperial Guard heroes. These are guys that survived extremely harsh trials and were subjected to lots of training and surgically modified to withstand a lot of punishment.

 Aszubaruzah Surn wrote:

 Desubot wrote:
I think 2 wounds would be better for a slight points increase. but not much else needed otherwise you are literally running around with captain level dudes.

Well, the point is to make Space Marines slightly above the level of Imperial Guard heroes. These are guys that survived extremely harsh trials and were subjected to lots of training and surgically modified to withstand a lot of punishment.

Two wounds is pretty significant

Its like getting half your torso shot clean off and still being able to move and function.

Its about as strong as Wraiths are atm and those things are fething scary even when they used to be T4 instead of 5

 Desubot wrote:

 DoomShakaLaka wrote:
Xenomancer, I say leave them at S4 and give the chainsword the profile s+1 ap- so that it is actually worthwhile on assault Marines and sgts. And then maybe 33ppm?

Chainswords with a purpose?! Brilliant!

Though honestly i would rather them be slightly cheaper and give the chain sword shred.

Honestly the 4 across the board stats i think is fine. its above average and makes sense. I think 2 wounds would be better for a slight points increase. but not much else needed otherwise you are literally running around with captain level dudes.
I think it would be WAY more interesting to increase stats based on what kind of Vets they get upgraded to. like Sternguard gets a +1 BS instead of a WS, while Vanguard gets a +1 to WS and so on. and the generic +1 attack for both.
Ether that or instead of increasing stats you can give them Some kind of Preferred enemy which would make sense for vet type things.

I agree - the most important stat change would be making marines 2 wounds - with vets getting bonus to their main stat. I also think a base marine should have 2 attacks as well with vets going to 3 base. Make chain swords shred - bolters shred and wed have some pretty elite marines. Without a bonus to str or an invo save - i think these marines would be fair priced at about 26 points.

They would still have low attack power, but they would be tough. I like it.

As pointed out* in similar threads shred on bolters may be a bit too much. Also with your suggested changes, why would I take a chainsword when I can just use a bolter?


I am a proponent for incentivizing the chainsword so it would either need to be : Bolters un-changed and chainswords gain shred OR go all the way and have bolters gain shred and chainswords get +1s and shred

Shred on bolters is not going to be too much. Rerolls to wound yes, but it's still just 1/2 S4 shots. You're not going to kill much with it.

Personally i really dont want to mess with bolter changes since its an extremely contested subject.

I dont think Marines should naturally have two attacks each. since they are getting a better chance to hit instead of wildly swinging there arms around.
as well they are going faster at intiative 4.

So they are stronger, faster, tougher, and hit better than a normal human.