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 Manchu wrote:
Hard to say what Palpatine's end game was. Judging only by RotJ, his death seems ... highly preventable. I have never bought that teddy bears could take on the Emperor's "crack troops." It makes even less sense in light of the prequels, where he is able to somehow manipulate events in the span of decades. Maybe Vader's change of heart is one of those "Sauron will never expect us to destroy the ring" type situations. Even that seems a bit strange considering how farsighted the prequels show him. Long before the prequels ever existed, his death seemed utterly implausible to certain writers, hence Dark Empire.

I agree with those who have said Palpatine wanted to attain immortality. In that case, putting a succession plan in place would be admitting failure.

The *ONLY* explanations that I can think of is:

1) Darth Plagueis and Sidious "only" planned as far as regaining the old Sith Empire. Palpatine/Sidious had achieved that with being named Supreme Chancellor and ultimately naming himself Emperor... As such he had no further plans?

2) Having attained the goals set out in the first point, he became arrogant (as seems to be the downfall of so many leaders, fictitious and real alike) and either he stopped plotting/planning as much as when he was hungry (perhaps he lost the eye of the Tiger and needs his own Apollo to take him to a slum gym to regain it?), or the DS of the Force in essence "abandoned" him and he stopped being able to see/plot into the future?

The Tarkin novel sort of supports Hypothesis 1 ... the Emperor is portrayed as withdrawn from ruling, spending his time researching Sith stuff. Probably his continued quest for immortality, however.

Well, the Emperor had foreseen or at least set up the Rebel assault on the new Death Star. He leaked them the plans and set it up as an elaborate trap.

But as with all premonitions which we hear about throughout the series (Anakin about Padme, Yoda about what will happen if Luke goes to Cloud City etc.), he didn't get a full picture, only glimpses.

It could be he saw Han and the others get captured, knew Luke would go to Vader, knew the Rebels would commit to a major assault. So from what he had seen in his premonitions and his knowledge about troop numbers on Endor and the Death Stars operational capability, victory seemed almost certain. But he was missing important details (the Ewoks helping the Rebels) and lacked the empathy to feel Vaders repressed feelings about his son.

One of the older EU explanations is that the Emperor was very occupied throughout his rule secretly making plans to repel the coming Yuuzhan Vong invasion (which he somehow knew about decades before it even started).

Of course, those bits of the EU were also super creepy for constantly trying to portray the Emperor as the 'secret good guy' all along and Luke was a douche bag for selfishly opposing him. So part of me hopes that bit of the EU will just vanish forever

The dude kissed his own sister, you don't get more douchey than that.

 LordofHats wrote:
One of the older EU explanations is that the Emperor was very occupied throughout his rule secretly making plans to repel the coming Yuuzhan Vong invasion (which he somehow knew about decades before it even started).

Of course, those bits of the EU were also super creepy for constantly trying to portray the Emperor as the 'secret good guy' all along and Luke was a douche bag for selfishly opposing him. So part of me hopes that bit of the EU will just vanish forever

Yeah, I believe it was the Chiss who encountered a Yhuuzan Vong scouting force, and they in turn relayed it to the Emperor. That was why he built things like the Death Star and other super weapons. If he could easily nuke the Yhuuzan Vong planet ships, then they wouldn't have been nearly the threat that they ended up being.

I don't think it makes him out to be a good guy in anyway shape or form though. He was still a genocidal lunatic. Just because he planned for self preservation doesn't make him a "secret good guy".

 djones520 wrote:
Just because he planned for self preservation doesn't make him a "secret good guy".

No, I'm referring to a tendency (at the time that material was being written) for the authors writing it to have this really passive aggressive "Luke sucks the Emperor was awesome" attitude that they tried pushing in their work. It was always the same deal; Reveal Palpatine secretly knew about X Galactic Threat to the Galaxy. Palpatine creates plan to stop threat from happening. Bash the Jedi for being short sighted hypocrites and the Old Republic for being corrupt and useless. Vaguely hint that Palpatine's not such a bad guy and totally justified in his actions from a "certain point of view."

It was insanely creepy because you know, Palpatine was a tyrannical genocidal maniac who at times literally thought he was god.

It is part of the larger Eu tendency to white wash the Empire.

 Manchu wrote:
Hard to say what Palpatine's end game was. Judging only by RotJ, his death seems ... highly preventable. I have never bought that teddy bears could take on the Emperor's "crack troops." It makes even less sense in light of the prequels, where he is able to somehow manipulate events in the span of decades. Maybe Vader's change of heart is one of those "Sauron will never expect us to destroy the ring" type situations. Even that seems a bit strange considering how farsighted the prequels show him. Long before the prequels ever existed, his death seemed utterly implausible to certain writers, hence Dark Empire.

I agree with those who have said Palpatine wanted to attain immortality. In that case, putting a succession plan in place would be admitting failure.

I always thought, from the films, not EU, that Palpatines end game was his own death. He believed in the rule of two, so must have known that one day his student would want to take his place. My feeling was that he hoped to train Vader until Vader was strong enough to take the thrown through brute force. Unfortunatly for Sidious Vader was strong enough to kill him, but realized his error at the last moment. The way I see it Vader was not quite ready to be the sith lord yet. Not quite consumed by evil and not quite strong enough to kill Sidious cleanly without the mortal wound to himself. It was the realization of what he had done that drove him to take the risk rather than do it when he was powerful enough.

 LordofHats wrote:

 djones520 wrote:
Just because he planned for self preservation doesn't make him a "secret good guy".

No, I'm referring to a tendency (at the time that material was being written) for the authors writing it to have this really passive aggressive "Luke sucks the Emperor was awesome" attitude that they tried pushing in their work. It was always the same deal; Reveal Palpatine secretly knew about X Galactic Threat to the Galaxy. Palpatine creates plan to stop threat from happening. Bash the Jedi for being short sighted hypocrites and the Old Republic for being corrupt and useless. Vaguely hint that Palpatine's not such a bad guy and totally justified in his actions from a "certain point of view."

It was insanely creepy because you know, Palpatine was a tyrannical genocidal maniac who at times literally thought he was god.

This sounds somewhat similar to what many of you have said about Karen Traviss' writing: Mandalorians= Teh 1337 Uber Sexeh, Jedi= eww, yucky evil people acting like the good guys.

It started with Thrawn wearing a white uniform (literally and symbolically) and culminated with Legacy, where a reformed Empire is portrayed as the "good faction." Good riddance EU!

 Manchu wrote:
It started with Thrawn wearing a white uniform (literally and symbolically) and culminated with Legacy, where a reformed Empire is portrayed as the "good faction." Good riddance EU!

The Empire were the good guys in Legacy? Not sure where you got that from. I mean, didn't their Emperor get deposed by a Sith who started up a new Sith Empire and started to genocide the galaxy because reasons? Didn't the deposed Emperor become so desperate to win back his throne that he tried to genocide Coruscant? Didn't he have to be killed by his own bodyguard to save the planet? Didn't the Republic actually do all the actual good guy stuff in the series?

Roan Fel fell to the dark side. Fell. That's not just a pun; it also means he was good.

 notprop wrote:
The dude kissed his own sister, you don't get more douchey than that.

Correction, his sister kissed him.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:
Well, the Emperor had foreseen or at least set up the Rebel assault on the new Death Star. He leaked them the plans and set it up as an elaborate trap.

But as with all premonitions which we hear about throughout the series (Anakin about Padme, Yoda about what will happen if Luke goes to Cloud City etc.), he didn't get a full picture, only glimpses.

It could be he saw Han and the others get captured, knew Luke would go to Vader, knew the Rebels would commit to a major assault. So from what he had seen in his premonitions and his knowledge about troop numbers on Endor and the Death Stars operational capability, victory seemed almost certain. But he was missing important details (the Ewoks helping the Rebels) and lacked the empathy to feel Vaders repressed feelings about his son.

Plus why didn't he have the entire equivalent of a tank division around that shield complex, or even just a couple of machine gun posts. Come on guys...

 Manchu wrote:
Roan Fel fell to the dark side. Fell. That's not just a pun; it also means he was good.

Was means was. Past tense. If a character turns evil during a story, you can't really complain that he's the good guy.

 Manchu wrote:
Roan Fel fell to the dark side. Fell. That's not just a pun; it also means he was good.

So did Luke and Ventris.

squidhills wrote:
If a character turns evil during a story, you can't really complain that he's the good guy.

... makes no sense ...

The issue is, the Fel Empire was good, ruled by a good dynasty of good emperors, the last of whom eventually turned bad at turning point in the story.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:

 kronk wrote:

 Paradigm wrote:
Thing is, though, what did the Rebels actually win in RotJ? Luke himself certainly triumphed over Vader, and Jedi beat the Sith (or at least they think they did.

Of course they won!

Just watch this scene that didn't make it into RotJ!

Again, the Empire is not a nation state. It is an entity purely made to serve the Sith. You killed the only Sith (and yes, in the films it was made clear there were only two sith) then they have literally nobody to serve and no reason to exist.

Its like saying that the Soviet Union had millions of troops and a vast amount of territory. It doesn't matter.

The Empire still has an entire non-sith bureaucracy that isn't going to let go of power just like that.

The Soviet union couldn't hold together because the Red Army ultimately wouldn't go through with the coup and violently hold the thing together.

The Empire is quite literally cartoonishly evil and doesn't give a gak about blowing up planets to make a point so I think the Bureaucracy and all of Sidious and Vader's cronies are going to be much more willing to force the whole structure to stick together even with the Dark Lords of the Sith gone.

Like, it's the reason why the Soviet Union and probably Fascist Italy could peacefully collapse while Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan weren't going to go down in any way but in flames.

 Manchu wrote:

squidhills wrote:
If a character turns evil during a story, you can't really complain that he's the good guy.

... makes no sense ...

The issue is, the Fel Empire was good, ruled by a good dynasty of good emperors, the last of whom eventually turned bad at turning point in the story.

So your complaint is that the Empire was good before the story started (and only shown in flashbacks)? Because it was evil for pretty much the entire actual run. Believe it or not, if you'd been reading the EU novels (insert snarky comment here) the Empire becoming somewhat benevolent was a natural progression. In one of the best uses of the character, Admiral Daala realized that the Empire's racist attitudes and brutal policies were the reason it was destined to lose the war against the New Republic. She began implementing reforms that began to turn the Empire from Lawful Evil to Lawful Neutral. Han Solo's daughter married the guy who eventually became the first Emperor after Palpatine (Soontir Fel's son) and she would have used her position as Queen to push the reforms even further along. I have no problem believing that in the span of one hundred years, realistic people who aren't cartoon villains could reform a government away from evil and turn it to something good. It's not like it hasn't happened in real life.

Hi, Germany!

Thanks for writing out the history of the point I originally made.

 Manchu wrote:
Thanks for writing out the history of the point I originally made.

No, your point was that the Empire was the "good guys" in Legacy. They weren't. They were good guys immediately prior to Legacy, since the opening of Legacy is the Sith coup and the Empire being evil for all the rest of the issues that got made. The Empire in Legacy were the bad guys. The only ones who weren't bad, were working with the New Republic forces (under the Galactic Alliance banner). The overwhelming majority of the enemies the Republic forces killed were Imperial Stormtroopers. They shot down futuristic TIE fighters. They duelled Sith warriors. All of whom were running around calling themselves "The Empire". And the deposed ("good") Emperor turned evil during the course of the story. I'm really having a hard time seeing how the Empire were the good guys in Legacy, as you claimed.

Now, if you'd said "I don't like how Dark Horse made the Empire into a benevloent government in the backstory of Legacy" you'd be stating an opinion that I couldn't argue against, because it would be factually correct. But that isn't what you said. It might've been what you meant, but it wasn't what you said.

squidhills wrote:
Believe it or not, if you'd been reading the EU novels (insert snarky comment here) the Empire becoming somewhat benevolent was a natural progression.

 Manchu wrote:
It started with Thrawn wearing a white uniform (literally and symbolically) and culminated with Legacy, where a reformed Empire is portrayed as the "good faction." Good riddance EU!

So thanks again.

 Manchu wrote:
So thanks again.

Always happy to help!

squidhills wrote:

 Manchu wrote:

squidhills wrote:
If a character turns evil during a story, you can't really complain that he's the good guy.

... makes no sense ...

The issue is, the Fel Empire was good, ruled by a good dynasty of good emperors, the last of whom eventually turned bad at turning point in the story.

So your complaint is that the Empire was good before the story started (and only shown in flashbacks)? Because it was evil for pretty much the entire actual run. Believe it or not, if you'd been reading the EU novels (insert snarky comment here) the Empire becoming somewhat benevolent was a natural progression. In one of the best uses of the character, Admiral Daala realized that the Empire's racist attitudes and brutal policies were the reason it was destined to lose the war against the New Republic. She began implementing reforms that began to turn the Empire from Lawful Evil to Lawful Neutral. Han Solo's daughter married the guy who eventually became the first Emperor after Palpatine (Soontir Fel's son) and she would have used her position as Queen to push the reforms even further along. I have no problem believing that in the span of one hundred years, realistic people who aren't cartoon villains could reform a government away from evil and turn it to something good. It's not like it hasn't happened in real life.

Hi, Germany!

This is the EU? No wonder Disney ditched it, like a chaperone at the school dance.

 Manchu wrote:
It started with Thrawn wearing a white uniform (literally and symbolically) and culminated with Legacy, where a reformed Empire is portrayed as the "good faction." Good riddance EU!

Well by the time of Legacy, the Fel Empire was a much more sympathetic faction than the Galactic Empire (and Imperial Knights are fething awesome). But I don't think there were attempts to do away with or hide that much of the current situation, was at least in part the Empire's fault and that Roan Fel was not a very nice guy. Rae, Siah, and Draco were the real "heroes" of the Empire story line in Legacy, and the later two were heavily contrasted to Roan by the story itself as a matter of course. I rather preferred the depiction of the Fel Empire, however it came about, because it ditched the "you're good or your not" circle jerk that tends to ruin so much of the EU.

It's like when those hair metal bands from the 80s play at the casino or a mid-sized dive bar. "Chewy we're home, are you ready to rock?"

 Frazzled wrote:

squidhills wrote:

 Manchu wrote:

squidhills wrote:
If a character turns evil during a story, you can't really complain that he's the good guy.

... makes no sense ...

The issue is, the Fel Empire was good, ruled by a good dynasty of good emperors, the last of whom eventually turned bad at turning point in the story.

So your complaint is that the Empire was good before the story started (and only shown in flashbacks)? Because it was evil for pretty much the entire actual run. Believe it or not, if you'd been reading the EU novels (insert snarky comment here) the Empire becoming somewhat benevolent was a natural progression. In one of the best uses of the character, Admiral Daala realized that the Empire's racist attitudes and brutal policies were the reason it was destined to lose the war against the New Republic. She began implementing reforms that began to turn the Empire from Lawful Evil to Lawful Neutral. Han Solo's daughter married the guy who eventually became the first Emperor after Palpatine (Soontir Fel's son) and she would have used her position as Queen to push the reforms even further along. I have no problem believing that in the span of one hundred years, realistic people who aren't cartoon villains could reform a government away from evil and turn it to something good. It's not like it hasn't happened in real life.

Hi, Germany!

This is the EU? No wonder Disney ditched it, like a chaperone at the school dance.

Frazz, you have no idea. That's actually some of the passably acceptable parts of the EU.

Yeah. SW Legacy was one of the best things to come out of the EU in years.