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2016/12/06 18:44:48
Subject: Re:Is it considered 'wrong' to not purchase from the store where you play?
You are forgetting something all GW shops are not owned buy 1 guy. Each one is indivually owned and operated, so you are taking money away from Paul the GW shop frachise user who is hopping to earn a living.
Except, as I think has been mentioned in this thread, and I have a vague recollection of telling you directly before, not a single GW store is a franchise. GW does not operate the franchise model, all GW stores are run by GW staff on a salary plus bonus basis.
You are correct that they're not owned by "1 guy" in that GW is a publicly owned company, but even then, barely.
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
GW stores are not a franchise like McDonald's, every GW store is owned by GW (leased whatever) every staff members an employee of GW.
If you buy GW from a flgs or online you are subsidizing their stores so you have every right to use their stores, only way to buy models without GW getting a cut is used of eBay and even then GW still got paid by the guy selling them.
It may suck for the manager if you buy elsewhere but you don't owe them a living, if he wants your business it's on him to entice you to buy there.
You can't eat/drink in most flgs apart from stuff bought on the premises and this is fine, I pay a few more pounds, and the store owner makes more profit. My models however can be bought 20-25% cheaper elsewhere and so I save serious money on a standard sized 40k army. I'm happy for those people who think this is 'stupid' to keep paying more. They're happy. I'm happy. Everyone's a winner.
Ah so now it's not a GW store it's ok then eh? I thought we were talking on principle. Now I see it's a different story.
Everyone's a winner? How is the poor manager or the person running the one man store a winner now? Now we are just making excuses to make ourselves feel better for "giving it to GW cooperate".
I'm getting confused by your stance. I buy my models at the best price I can get them. I understand some people buying at their flgs or local GW out of loyalty but I don't do it. I purchase food and drink whilst at my flgs which helps the store to make money. GW overcharge for everything, always have, always will. They don't get anything directly from me. If GW served food and drink, and I played on one of their tables (which I don't) then I would proabaly buy something to eat or drink, as I wouldn't be able to take anything in (presumably) Is my point of view that confusing?
My stance is, people shouldn't make excuses about "saving money" when thy buy other stuff that they are clearly being overcharged when they buy other products. That is a hypocrite.
After all the debate/arguement is GW puts up a huge mark up on their products so it's ok to shop else where. Well buying a bottle of water is a huge mark up as well so going by the "shop else where because of the mark up" should mean we shouldn't be buying that bottle of water or what ever at the FLGS because we can also buy it cheaper. That is all I am saying, using that excuse is not a very good one because we don't do what we are saying. So if the excuse is don't buy from GW because we can it cheaper, we shouldn't be buying that bottle of water as well because we can buy it cheaper also.
Since we do buy that bottle of water, the excuse of "buy it else where because it's cheaper" is no longer valid now is it.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/12/07 01:11:05
Agies Grimm:The "Learn to play, bro" mentality is mostly just a way for someone to try to shame you by implying that their metaphorical nerd-wiener is bigger than yours. Which, ironically, I think nerds do even more vehemently than jocks.
Everything is made up and the points don't matter. 40K or Who's Line is it Anyway?
Auticus wrote: Or in summation: its ok to exploit shoddy points because those are rules and gamers exist to find rules loopholes (they are still "legal"), but if the same force can be composed without structure, it emotionally feels "wrong".
You can't eat/drink in most flgs apart from stuff bought on the premises and this is fine, I pay a few more pounds, and the store owner makes more profit. My models however can be bought 20-25% cheaper elsewhere and so I save serious money on a standard sized 40k army. I'm happy for those people who think this is 'stupid' to keep paying more. They're happy. I'm happy. Everyone's a winner.
Ah so now it's not a GW store it's ok then eh? I thought we were talking on principle. Now I see it's a different story.
Everyone's a winner? How is the poor manager or the person running the one man store a winner now? Now we are just making excuses to make ourselves feel better for "giving it to GW cooperate".
I'm getting confused by your stance. I buy my models at the best price I can get them. I understand some people buying at their flgs or local GW out of loyalty but I don't do it. I purchase food and drink whilst at my flgs which helps the store to make money. GW overcharge for everything, always have, always will. They don't get anything directly from me. If GW served food and drink, and I played on one of their tables (which I don't) then I would proabaly buy something to eat or drink, as I wouldn't be able to take anything in (presumably) Is my point of view that confusing?
My stance is, people shouldn't make excuses about "saving money" when thy buy other stuff that they are clearly being overcharged when they buy other products. That is a hypocrite.
After all the debate/arguement is GW puts up a huge mark up on their products so it's ok to shop else where. Well buying a bottle of water is a huge mark up as well so going by the "shop else where because of the mark up" should mean we shouldn't be buying that bottle of water or what ever at the FLGS because we can also buy it cheaper. That is all I am saying, using that excuse is not a very good one because we don't do what we are saying. So if the excuse is don't buy from GW because we can it cheaper, we shouldn't be buying that bottle of water as well because we can buy it cheaper also.
Since we do buy that bottle of water, the excuse of "buy it else where because it's cheaper" is no longer valid now is it.
Food and miniatures aren't analogous in this situation. It's like comparing apples to plastic scale models of apples that you use to play a wargame.
Buying food in a gaming store is largely an issue of convenience. You need to buy food to eat (you might not need to buy new models to play a game). Buying the food in the gaming store is partly a matter of convenience because I need to eat and I'm a store that sells food. If I need to play a game, the convenience of being in the store that sells miniatures doesn't really do much for me, I still have to go home and spend a month or ten painting them before I play a game with them.
The fact restaurants have "no outside food" policies works because of the immediate nature of buying food then consuming it.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/12/07 01:44:15
2016/12/07 03:42:07
Subject: Re:Is it considered 'wrong' to not purchase from the store where you play?
My ancient "lab"
Honestly, I personally love supporting flgs, as they seem more "authentic" to me. I was wrong apparently, as if GW stores are theoretically created and run by 1 man, then it would be a similar scenario.
As for your dilemma, if the flgs upstairs doesn't have anywhere to play/paint, suggest it to them! Say "Hey, i love the discounts on your models and the store, but I have to go downstairs to paint or play. Any possibility of a work area?". Hopefully they'll consider it, as that'd bring in more business.
Take this all with a grain of salt though, as there are no nearby flgs with 40k where I live, so i use GW.
You can't eat/drink in most flgs apart from stuff bought on the premises and this is fine, I pay a few more pounds, and the store owner makes more profit.
My models however can be bought 20-25% cheaper elsewhere and so I save serious money on a standard sized 40k army.
I'm happy for those people who think this is 'stupid' to keep paying more. They're happy. I'm happy. Everyone's a winner.
Ah so now it's not a GW store it's ok then eh? I thought we were talking on principle. Now I see it's a different story.
Everyone's a winner? How is the poor manager or the person running the one man store a winner now? Now we are just making excuses to make ourselves feel better for "giving it to GW cooperate".
I'm getting confused by your stance. I buy my models at the best price I can get them.
I understand some people buying at their flgs or local GW out of loyalty but I don't do it.
I purchase food and drink whilst at my flgs which helps the store to make money.
GW overcharge for everything, always have, always will. They don't get anything directly from me.
If GW served food and drink, and I played on one of their tables (which I don't) then I would proabaly buy something to eat or drink, as I wouldn't be able to take anything in (presumably)
Is my point of view that confusing?
My stance is, people shouldn't make excuses about "saving money" when thy buy other stuff that they are clearly being overcharged when they buy other products. That is a hypocrite.
After all the debate/arguement is GW puts up a huge mark up on their products so it's ok to shop else where. Well buying a bottle of water is a huge mark up as well so going by the "shop else where because of the mark up" should mean we shouldn't be buying that bottle of water or what ever at the FLGS because we can also buy it cheaper. That is all I am saying, using that excuse is not a very good one because we don't do what we are saying. So if the excuse is don't buy from GW because we can it cheaper, we shouldn't be buying that bottle of water as well because we can buy it cheaper also.
Since we do buy that bottle of water, the excuse of "buy it else where because it's cheaper" is no longer valid now is it.
It's a silly argument on your part to say buying over costed models is justified on the grounds I will buy over costed food or drink.
I can wait for my models and will shop at the best price. If I want to eat straight away I'll do so wherever's convenient. Otherwise I buy at the supermarket like everyone else and still try to get the best price.
I've been playing a while, my first model was a lead marine and my first White Dwarf was bound with staples
2016/12/07 16:36:09
Subject: Is it considered 'wrong' to not purchase from the store where you play?
Not to mention the fact that buying discount models over retail price models may be a difference of $5 (low end), while buying the overcosted snack compared to a supermarket snack may be a difference of $0.5, which could be less than the gas it would take to get you to the other place.
The price differences are not comparable. I will pay 50 cents for the convenience of eating that food immediately and spending less on gas or saving time walking to the place. I will not pay 100 dollars for the convenience of buying models that I will not be playing with that day in the store.
2016/12/07 16:46:34
Subject: Is it considered 'wrong' to not purchase from the store where you play?
Jacksmiles wrote: The price differences are not comparable. I will pay 50 cents for the convenience of eating that food immediately and spending less on gas or saving time walking to the place. I will not pay 100 dollars for the convenience of buying models that I will not be playing with that day in the store.
QFT. Let's remember, the majority of GW stores are one man stores, and it's really the community of players that show up where you get your value. When is the last time a manager played a game with you?
We should be talking about ways to incentivize the community to show up at stores instead of ways of helping retail managers meet their quotas.
Historically, my local GW store does more to chase away players than to get them into the hobby with their sales-focused approach to customer service. I remember a time when a kid came in with his mother, assembled all the boxes needed to build a complete Space Marine army, then rang up the purchase for $4,000. The sale was cancelled and the kid was being yelled at on the way out of the store.
Jacksmiles wrote: The price differences are not comparable. I will pay 50 cents for the convenience of eating that food immediately and spending less on gas or saving time walking to the place. I will not pay 100 dollars for the convenience of buying models that I will not be playing with that day in the store.
QFT. Let's remember, the majority of GW stores are one man stores, and it's really the community of players that show up where you get your value. When is the last time a manager played a game with you?
We should be talking about ways to incentivize the community to show up at stores instead of ways of helping retail managers meet their quotas.
Historically, my local GW store does more to chase away players than to get them into the hobby with their sales-focused approach to customer service. I remember a time when a kid came in with his mother, assembled all the boxes needed to build a complete Space Marine army, then rang up the purchase for $4,000. The sale was cancelled and the kid was being yelled at on the way out of the store.
I haven't played in my local GW store since 2004 because of the manager Tim a former friend who cancelled vets night with no forewarning at all and destroyed the group because we didn't have everyone's details.
2016/12/07 18:23:01
Subject: Is it considered 'wrong' to not purchase from the store where you play?
You can't eat/drink in most flgs apart from stuff bought on the premises and this is fine, I pay a few more pounds, and the store owner makes more profit. My models however can be bought 20-25% cheaper elsewhere and so I save serious money on a standard sized 40k army. I'm happy for those people who think this is 'stupid' to keep paying more. They're happy. I'm happy. Everyone's a winner.
Ah so now it's not a GW store it's ok then eh? I thought we were talking on principle. Now I see it's a different story.
Everyone's a winner? How is the poor manager or the person running the one man store a winner now? Now we are just making excuses to make ourselves feel better for "giving it to GW cooperate".
I'm getting confused by your stance. I buy my models at the best price I can get them. I understand some people buying at their flgs or local GW out of loyalty but I don't do it. I purchase food and drink whilst at my flgs which helps the store to make money. GW overcharge for everything, always have, always will. They don't get anything directly from me. If GW served food and drink, and I played on one of their tables (which I don't) then I would proabaly buy something to eat or drink, as I wouldn't be able to take anything in (presumably) Is my point of view that confusing?
My stance is, people shouldn't make excuses about "saving money" when thy buy other stuff that they are clearly being overcharged when they buy other products. That is a hypocrite.
After all the debate/arguement is GW puts up a huge mark up on their products so it's ok to shop else where. Well buying a bottle of water is a huge mark up as well so going by the "shop else where because of the mark up" should mean we shouldn't be buying that bottle of water or what ever at the FLGS because we can also buy it cheaper. That is all I am saying, using that excuse is not a very good one because we don't do what we are saying. So if the excuse is don't buy from GW because we can it cheaper, we shouldn't be buying that bottle of water as well because we can buy it cheaper also.
Since we do buy that bottle of water, the excuse of "buy it else where because it's cheaper" is no longer valid now is it.
Food and miniatures aren't analogous in this situation. It's like comparing apples to plastic scale models of apples that you use to play a wargame.
Buying food in a gaming store is largely an issue of convenience. You need to buy food to eat (you might not need to buy new models to play a game). Buying the food in the gaming store is partly a matter of convenience because I need to eat and I'm a store that sells food. If I need to play a game, the convenience of being in the store that sells miniatures doesn't really do much for me, I still have to go home and spend a month or ten painting them before I play a game with them.
The fact restaurants have "no outside food" policies works because of the immediate nature of buying food then consuming it.
You can't eat/drink in most flgs apart from stuff bought on the premises and this is fine, I pay a few more pounds, and the store owner makes more profit. My models however can be bought 20-25% cheaper elsewhere and so I save serious money on a standard sized 40k army. I'm happy for those people who think this is 'stupid' to keep paying more. They're happy. I'm happy. Everyone's a winner.
Ah so now it's not a GW store it's ok then eh? I thought we were talking on principle. Now I see it's a different story.
Everyone's a winner? How is the poor manager or the person running the one man store a winner now? Now we are just making excuses to make ourselves feel better for "giving it to GW cooperate".
I'm getting confused by your stance. I buy my models at the best price I can get them. I understand some people buying at their flgs or local GW out of loyalty but I don't do it. I purchase food and drink whilst at my flgs which helps the store to make money. GW overcharge for everything, always have, always will. They don't get anything directly from me. If GW served food and drink, and I played on one of their tables (which I don't) then I would proabaly buy something to eat or drink, as I wouldn't be able to take anything in (presumably) Is my point of view that confusing?
My stance is, people shouldn't make excuses about "saving money" when thy buy other stuff that they are clearly being overcharged when they buy other products. That is a hypocrite.
After all the debate/arguement is GW puts up a huge mark up on their products so it's ok to shop else where. Well buying a bottle of water is a huge mark up as well so going by the "shop else where because of the mark up" should mean we shouldn't be buying that bottle of water or what ever at the FLGS because we can also buy it cheaper. That is all I am saying, using that excuse is not a very good one because we don't do what we are saying. So if the excuse is don't buy from GW because we can it cheaper, we shouldn't be buying that bottle of water as well because we can buy it cheaper also.
Since we do buy that bottle of water, the excuse of "buy it else where because it's cheaper" is no longer valid now is it.
It's a silly argument on your part to say buying over costed models is justified on the grounds I will buy over costed food or drink. I can wait for my models and will shop at the best price. If I want to eat straight away I'll do so wherever's convenient. Otherwise I buy at the supermarket like everyone else and still try to get the best price.
Ah moving the goal posts now eh? If you are going to use the excuse "buy cheaper elsewhere because of huge mark ups" don't make excuses for not doing so.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/12/07 22:01:10
Agies Grimm:The "Learn to play, bro" mentality is mostly just a way for someone to try to shame you by implying that their metaphorical nerd-wiener is bigger than yours. Which, ironically, I think nerds do even more vehemently than jocks.
Everything is made up and the points don't matter. 40K or Who's Line is it Anyway?
Auticus wrote: Or in summation: its ok to exploit shoddy points because those are rules and gamers exist to find rules loopholes (they are still "legal"), but if the same force can be composed without structure, it emotionally feels "wrong".
2016/12/07 22:11:56
Subject: Is it considered 'wrong' to not purchase from the store where you play?
Clanan wrote: So what about FLGS vs. FLGS? This issue has been bugging me because of the following:
FLGS 1 is 5 mins away, nice tables and scenery but no discounts.
FLGS 2 is 15 min away, few/bad tables, 30% discount on GW.
I buy all my small stuff at #1 but it's soo hard losing 30% discount on bigger items... I wish I could just pay them a subscription to support them.
I'm happy to pay for good tables, what I have a problem with is feeling like I have to pay for models in order to use the "free" tables.
If someone has spent days setting up an awesome table, that's cool, I appreciate the work that went in to it and I'm happy to pay a few bucks to play on it so over time the store can recoup the costs of putting the table together.
I'm all for separating the costs of models from tables. Charge what you can for the models in and of themselves and charge what you feel is fair for the tables themselves, don't overcharge for models to compensate for the cost of making the tables then wonder why no one wants to buy your overpriced models
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/12/08 09:14:53
You can't eat/drink in most flgs apart from stuff bought on the premises and this is fine, I pay a few more pounds, and the store owner makes more profit. My models however can be bought 20-25% cheaper elsewhere and so I save serious money on a standard sized 40k army. I'm happy for those people who think this is 'stupid' to keep paying more. They're happy. I'm happy. Everyone's a winner.
Ah so now it's not a GW store it's ok then eh? I thought we were talking on principle. Now I see it's a different story.
Everyone's a winner? How is the poor manager or the person running the one man store a winner now? Now we are just making excuses to make ourselves feel better for "giving it to GW cooperate".
I'm getting confused by your stance. I buy my models at the best price I can get them. I understand some people buying at their flgs or local GW out of loyalty but I don't do it. I purchase food and drink whilst at my flgs which helps the store to make money. GW overcharge for everything, always have, always will. They don't get anything directly from me. If GW served food and drink, and I played on one of their tables (which I don't) then I would proabaly buy something to eat or drink, as I wouldn't be able to take anything in (presumably) Is my point of view that confusing?
My stance is, people shouldn't make excuses about "saving money" when thy buy other stuff that they are clearly being overcharged when they buy other products. That is a hypocrite.
After all the debate/arguement is GW puts up a huge mark up on their products so it's ok to shop else where. Well buying a bottle of water is a huge mark up as well so going by the "shop else where because of the mark up" should mean we shouldn't be buying that bottle of water or what ever at the FLGS because we can also buy it cheaper. That is all I am saying, using that excuse is not a very good one because we don't do what we are saying. So if the excuse is don't buy from GW because we can it cheaper, we shouldn't be buying that bottle of water as well because we can buy it cheaper also.
Since we do buy that bottle of water, the excuse of "buy it else where because it's cheaper" is no longer valid now is it.
Food and miniatures aren't analogous in this situation. It's like comparing apples to plastic scale models of apples that you use to play a wargame.
Buying food in a gaming store is largely an issue of convenience. You need to buy food to eat (you might not need to buy new models to play a game). Buying the food in the gaming store is partly a matter of convenience because I need to eat and I'm a store that sells food. If I need to play a game, the convenience of being in the store that sells miniatures doesn't really do much for me, I still have to go home and spend a month or ten painting them before I play a game with them.
The fact restaurants have "no outside food" policies works because of the immediate nature of buying food then consuming it.
You can't eat/drink in most flgs apart from stuff bought on the premises and this is fine, I pay a few more pounds, and the store owner makes more profit. My models however can be bought 20-25% cheaper elsewhere and so I save serious money on a standard sized 40k army. I'm happy for those people who think this is 'stupid' to keep paying more. They're happy. I'm happy. Everyone's a winner.
Ah so now it's not a GW store it's ok then eh? I thought we were talking on principle. Now I see it's a different story.
Everyone's a winner? How is the poor manager or the person running the one man store a winner now? Now we are just making excuses to make ourselves feel better for "giving it to GW cooperate".
I'm getting confused by your stance. I buy my models at the best price I can get them. I understand some people buying at their flgs or local GW out of loyalty but I don't do it. I purchase food and drink whilst at my flgs which helps the store to make money. GW overcharge for everything, always have, always will. They don't get anything directly from me. If GW served food and drink, and I played on one of their tables (which I don't) then I would proabaly buy something to eat or drink, as I wouldn't be able to take anything in (presumably) Is my point of view that confusing?
My stance is, people shouldn't make excuses about "saving money" when thy buy other stuff that they are clearly being overcharged when they buy other products. That is a hypocrite.
After all the debate/arguement is GW puts up a huge mark up on their products so it's ok to shop else where. Well buying a bottle of water is a huge mark up as well so going by the "shop else where because of the mark up" should mean we shouldn't be buying that bottle of water or what ever at the FLGS because we can also buy it cheaper. That is all I am saying, using that excuse is not a very good one because we don't do what we are saying. So if the excuse is don't buy from GW because we can it cheaper, we shouldn't be buying that bottle of water as well because we can buy it cheaper also.
Since we do buy that bottle of water, the excuse of "buy it else where because it's cheaper" is no longer valid now is it.
It's a silly argument on your part to say buying over costed models is justified on the grounds I will buy over costed food or drink. I can wait for my models and will shop at the best price. If I want to eat straight away I'll do so wherever's convenient. Otherwise I buy at the supermarket like everyone else and still try to get the best price.
Ah moving the goal posts now eh? If you are going to use the excuse "buy cheaper elsewhere because of huge mark ups" don't make excuses for not doing so.
It's not moving the goalposts, it's explaining why purchasing food with a markup is different to purchasing miniatures with a markup.
There's some things you can get away with a mark up, there's some things you can't. A 50% markup on a bottle of water that originally cost $1 is something you can get away with for the sake of convenience for your customers who is going to drink that bottle of water on the spot. A lesser 30% markup but on a $100 item that your customer is going to take home to assemble anyway is not something you can get away of (at least not often enough to foster a good customer base).
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/12/08 09:06:11
2016/12/08 11:10:16
Subject: Is it considered 'wrong' to not purchase from the store where you play?
hobojebus wrote: Conflating food sales for model sales is a false equivalency fallacy to begin with he's not moving goal posts at all.
Yes it is moving the goal posts. Now the excuse is being used of why it's ok to pay mark up on products. Remember the goal post was "paying more and you can get less by buying else where". So if that is the excuse we are using then we shouldn't be buying marked up food. After all the point was "paying for more."
If this is not the case then it should have been clearly said then, and a lot of people were not saying it. So yes the goal posts are moved once you say it's ok for this but not for that.
Look I agree, buy where you play/paint be it water bottle, food, paint, burshes, what ever. That is not the debate. The debate was buying else where because it's cheaper. Now people are buying products that are marked up and they are doing exactly the opposite of what is being discussed.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/12/08 14:56:49
Agies Grimm:The "Learn to play, bro" mentality is mostly just a way for someone to try to shame you by implying that their metaphorical nerd-wiener is bigger than yours. Which, ironically, I think nerds do even more vehemently than jocks.
Everything is made up and the points don't matter. 40K or Who's Line is it Anyway?
Auticus wrote: Or in summation: its ok to exploit shoddy points because those are rules and gamers exist to find rules loopholes (they are still "legal"), but if the same force can be composed without structure, it emotionally feels "wrong".
2016/12/08 15:09:51
Subject: Is it considered 'wrong' to not purchase from the store where you play?
Conflating food sales for model sales is a false equivalency fallacy to begin with he's not moving goal posts at all.
Yes it is moving the goal posts. Now the excuse is being used of why it's ok to pay mark up on products. Remember the goal post was "paying more and you can get less by buying else where". So if that is the excuse we are using then we shouldn't be buying marked up food. After all the point was "paying for more."
If this is not the case then it should have been clearly said then, and a lot of people were not saying it. So yes the goal posts are moved once you say it's ok for this but not for that.
Look I agree, buy where you play/paint be it water bottle, food, paint, burshes, what ever. That is not the debate. The debate was buying else where because it's cheaper. Now people are buying products that are marked up and they are doing exactly the opposite of what is being discussed.
Oh give it a break, no, you're wrong.
Firstly, you're inventing goalposts that were never set by the people you are arguing with.
Secondly, the post you originally quoted specifically talked about saving "serious money", saving $25 on a $100 is much closer to "serious money" than paying a bit more for a bottle of water.
Thirdly, you've acted like Huron was talking about the moral aspect, but YOU are the one who bought that stuff up. So if you think the moral goalposts are being moved it's simply because you were the only one shooting for that particular goal in the first place. No one else has bought up the moral or "on principle" aspect of it except you, we're just talking about PRACTICALITY.
Fourthly, we've give you the reasons why buying food from an FLGS is not analogous to buying overpriced models which you have not addressed.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Davor wrote: The debate was buying else where because it's cheaper. Now people are buying products that are marked up and they are doing exactly the opposite of what is being discussed.
No, that wasn't the debate. That was only one facet of the debate and ignoring things like the practicality, convenience and the significance of the amount of money being saved is disingenuous.
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2016/12/08 15:19:17
2016/12/08 15:17:27
Subject: Is it considered 'wrong' to not purchase from the store where you play?
hobojebus wrote: Conflating food sales for model sales is a false equivalency fallacy to begin with he's not moving goal posts at all.
Yes it is moving the goal posts. Now the excuse is being used of why it's ok to pay mark up on products. Remember the goal post was "paying more and you can get less by buying else where". So if that is the excuse we are using then we shouldn't be buying marked up food. After all the point was "paying for more."
If this is not the case then it should have been clearly said then, and a lot of people were not saying it. So yes the goal posts are moved once you say it's ok for this but not for that.
Look I agree, buy where you play/paint be it water bottle, food, paint, burshes, what ever. That is not the debate. The debate was buying else where because it's cheaper. Now people are buying products that are marked up and they are doing exactly the opposite of what is being discussed.
A 50 cent markup on a candy bar is not comparable to a 20 dollar markup on a model. I gave reasons for buying the candy bar from a place you're already at, namely that it's ACTUALLY CHEAPER to do so in many cases rather than jumping in your car and using gas (that costs money, maybe around the same 50 cents, maybe more) to go somewhere else, or using your time (time is money, folks!) to walk somewhere (instead of using gas). Alternatively, if you're at a place selling a model for $100, and there's another place selling that same model for $75, it's worth driving (let's say that distance also costs 50 cents) - you still SAVED MONEY, a significant amount, even ($24.50 in this example), or you can walk it (time is money, still) and you've saved whatever amount - depends on how you value your time (could be that to you, walking doesn't save money because you value your time so highly, that's okay too).
It's not moving the goal posts when the goal posts are and have always been saving money. Does it cost more to buy a snack at a lgs? Probably. Do I need to spend money/time-equivalent-to-money to go somewhere else to buy it cheaper? A resounding yes, and there's a good chance doing so costs the same amount as just buying it at the lgs. Such is absolutely NOT the case when looking at models that I can get for $25 less compared to the candy bar's $0.50 less elsewhere.
Also, "pay where you play" IS the debate, because we're saying the place needs to earn our money in another way besides just "I have tables." For the thousandth time, if I can get a $1000 order for $800 elsewhere, those tables aren't worth the $200 to me, although they ARE worth the 50 cents extra I'll pay on a snack. So people are saying "Hey because there's a high margin on snacks, and they're still cheap as feth, I'll buy those to support my lgs owner."
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/12/08 15:22:34
2016/12/08 23:16:01
Subject: Is it considered 'wrong' to not purchase from the store where you play?
Davor wrote: The debate was buying else where because it's cheaper. Now people are buying products that are marked up and they are doing exactly the opposite of what is being discussed.
No, that wasn't the debate. That was only one facet of the debate and ignoring things like the practicality, convenience and the significance of the amount of money being saved is disingenuous.
No I am not wrong. That was the debate, saving money. Nobody ever once said about practicality or convenience or what not before until I said people were making excuses.
I can't remember who said it but someone did say "it's just giving it to GW" and then a few people replied "no it was about saving money", well if it was about saving money then people shouldn't be saying GW has a huge mark up and that is why people should buy else where". All I am saying you can't use that excuse because the FLGS have huge mark ups as well. I just find it funny when someone brings up why that excuse is wrong and then comes up with an excuse why their stance has changed then.
Want me to give it up? Don't tell me I am wrong. I have my opinion, you have your opinion. Don't agree, that is fine, but don't tell me I am wrong when I am not. I am not anymore wrong than you are.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/12/08 23:17:56
2016/12/09 01:11:26
Subject: Is it considered 'wrong' to not purchase from the store where you play?
hobojebus wrote: Flgs buys at 55% and sells at a discount their profit margin is way smaller than GW's, they make the sprues for pennies and sell for tens of pounds.
Flgs also have to pay rent, wages, utilities and taxes GW stores get that handled by the company.
Once again your using a false equivalency fallacy.
No I am not. I am saying if we are going on "principal" like someone claimed here, and now I forget who it was, then principle we should stick to. Once we stop going on principle were just doing the "stick it to GW then".
How about the person who works in that GW store? He pays taxes. He needs to pay his utilities when he/she goes home. They have a rent or mortgage as well. Again, no difference.
Look I agree with the whys. I am not complaining about that. All I am talking about is when someone said it's the principle and claiming "buy cheaper else where", but then making excuses when they don't do it. Simple as that. I do it as well. Before my current FLGS I bought GW where I could save the most money. I fully understand.
Agies Grimm:The "Learn to play, bro" mentality is mostly just a way for someone to try to shame you by implying that their metaphorical nerd-wiener is bigger than yours. Which, ironically, I think nerds do even more vehemently than jocks.
Everything is made up and the points don't matter. 40K or Who's Line is it Anyway?
Auticus wrote: Or in summation: its ok to exploit shoddy points because those are rules and gamers exist to find rules loopholes (they are still "legal"), but if the same force can be composed without structure, it emotionally feels "wrong".
2016/12/09 01:29:17
Subject: Is it considered 'wrong' to not purchase from the store where you play?
What about the guy driving the bus your screwing over by driving to work, or the convenience store owner you boned by using the vending machines at your cafeteria etc etc.
Emotional appeals like that are plain weak, I don't owe the shop manager a living any more than I owe anyone else.
2016/12/09 05:15:05
Subject: Is it considered 'wrong' to not purchase from the store where you play?
Davor wrote: The debate was buying else where because it's cheaper. Now people are buying products that are marked up and they are doing exactly the opposite of what is being discussed.
No, that wasn't the debate. That was only one facet of the debate and ignoring things like the practicality, convenience and the significance of the amount of money being saved is disingenuous.
No I am not wrong. That was the debate, saving money. Nobody ever once said about practicality or convenience or what not before until I said people were making excuses.
I can't remember who said it but someone did say "it's just giving it to GW" and then a few people replied "no it was about saving money", well if it was about saving money then people shouldn't be saying GW has a huge mark up and that is why people should buy else where". All I am saying you can't use that excuse because the FLGS have huge mark ups as well. I just find it funny when someone brings up why that excuse is wrong and then comes up with an excuse why their stance has changed then.
Want me to give it up? Don't tell me I am wrong. I have my opinion, you have your opinion. Don't agree, that is fine, but don't tell me I am wrong when I am not. I am not anymore wrong than you are.
Maybe I should have been more specific, you are wrong about saying people moving the goalposts.
That's not up for debate, you're just wrong. People aren't moving the goalposts because right from the get go it wasn't simply about "saving money" it was about "saving serious money" and right from the get go we weren't talking about the principle of it.
I can understand why there was a bit of confusion there, but no one I can see has talked about "saving money on principle" except you, so therefore no one has moved any goalposts.
Davor wrote: No I am not. I am saying if we are going on "principal" like someone claimed here, and now I forget who it was, then principle we should stick to.
I think you should find that person and address your arguments directly to them because I can't find anyone who has used that argument, the only time the word "principle" was used in this thread (thank you ctrl+F) was Bottle arguing why he/she DOES buy from a GW store and yourself.
So yeah, we were never arguing saving money on principle to begin with. Maybe someone was talking about something several pages back that more closely matches your argument, but if that's the case then I'd say the discussion has simply naturally progressed because it's not what we've been talking about recently.
IMO I'd be sad if the local GW store OR the local FLGS store closed.... but I don't take personal responsibility for peoples' bad business practice and while I like the GW store manager, he's the one who chose to work for a store that doesn't give him the flexibility to bargain a discount, not my fault.
If we're talking on principle, on principle I think it's a store owner's job to get me to buy there and on principle guilting me with tables is not a sound business plan and on principle I don't think store owners should try and subsidise the cost of tables with more expensive miniatures because 90% of people aren't going to use the tables anyway.
I don't try and save money on principle, that's just purely a matter of practicality. I try and not throw money away if I can avoid it but it has nothing to do with principles, it's just the practical aspect of trying to avoid unnecessary large hits on my bank balance.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2016/12/09 05:35:54
2016/12/09 10:40:13
Subject: Is it considered 'wrong' to not purchase from the store where you play?
If we were talking about saving money on principle I'd not be doing this hobby in the first place. But I do try and get the most out of my (sadly) meagre budget.
I've been playing a while, my first model was a lead marine and my first White Dwarf was bound with staples
2016/12/09 11:17:16
Subject: Is it considered 'wrong' to not purchase from the store where you play?
The way I see it the store is providing a service that it's not charging for. If you truly want to support the store talk to the manager. Explain to him the problem and work out a solution. For example, the store could provide free hobby space for building/painting only for things that were purchased there (easy to prove with the bill). In the end you can't fund the store all on your own, so regardless where you personally buy your models the store will fail if it is run badly and fails to adapt.
hobojebus wrote: What about the guy driving the bus your screwing over by driving to work, or the convenience store owner you boned by using the vending machines at your cafeteria etc etc.
Emotional appeals like that are plain weak, I don't owe the shop manager a living any more than I owe anyone else.
Then why are people using the emotional appeal of the Local Gaming store needing to pay for rent, hydro, workers and what not? You don't own the local Friendly Gaming store anything at all either.
Agies Grimm:The "Learn to play, bro" mentality is mostly just a way for someone to try to shame you by implying that their metaphorical nerd-wiener is bigger than yours. Which, ironically, I think nerds do even more vehemently than jocks.
Everything is made up and the points don't matter. 40K or Who's Line is it Anyway?
Auticus wrote: Or in summation: its ok to exploit shoddy points because those are rules and gamers exist to find rules loopholes (they are still "legal"), but if the same force can be composed without structure, it emotionally feels "wrong".
2016/12/09 13:54:39
Subject: Re:Is it considered 'wrong' to not purchase from the store where you play?
Many types of stores depend on "loss leaders" or things they pay for or take a loss on to get you in the store so you spend your money.
Square footage is expensive, freeing up the space to game and not for product is very much an example.
Your patronage in buying product in the store pays for that space.
It is "wrong" if the owner feels that those who come to game do not help pay for that space.
You pay for it or lose it.
Or you can "leach" off the use of the space and wait until the owner shuts it down or the store closes it's doors, pretty simple cause and effect.
A revolution is an idea which has found its bayonets.
Napoleon Bonaparte
2016/12/09 14:03:47
Subject: Re:Is it considered 'wrong' to not purchase from the store where you play?
Talizvar wrote: Or you can "leach" off the use of the space and wait until the owner shuts it down or the store closes it's doors, pretty simple cause and effect.
Now now, my fellow Canadian. We can't talk like this, we might hurt some people's feelings for actually saying the truth and need people to make excuses so they can feel better for their actions. I am sure a few people will come in and say how this is "not leeching" and will need to try and prove us wrong instead of respecting our opinion of something.
Agies Grimm:The "Learn to play, bro" mentality is mostly just a way for someone to try to shame you by implying that their metaphorical nerd-wiener is bigger than yours. Which, ironically, I think nerds do even more vehemently than jocks.
Everything is made up and the points don't matter. 40K or Who's Line is it Anyway?
Auticus wrote: Or in summation: its ok to exploit shoddy points because those are rules and gamers exist to find rules loopholes (they are still "legal"), but if the same force can be composed without structure, it emotionally feels "wrong".
2016/12/09 14:12:28
Subject: Re:Is it considered 'wrong' to not purchase from the store where you play?
Talizvar wrote: Many types of stores depend on "loss leaders" or things they pay for or take a loss on to get you in the store so you spend your money. Square footage is expensive, freeing up the space to game and not for product is very much an example. Your patronage in buying product in the store pays for that space.
On the flip side, people who still buy product but don't use the gaming space are paying for a service they don't use.
I doubt any gaming store will be kept afloat by the purchases of the people who are playing in store, I don't think those people should subsidise the tables.
Or you can "leach" off the use of the space and wait until the owner shuts it down or the store closes it's doors, pretty simple cause and effect.
Or until the owner comes up with a better business plan.
Pushing the blame on to customers for not buying is insane and a great way to go out of business quickly. If people aren't buying in your store, it's a problem the owner needs to fix, not blame the customers.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/12/09 14:14:41
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