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Based on a lot of the replies here I think that the safe move would be to open a store called "Paints & Glue". As a retailer you have no incentive to tie up your finances by carrying inventory that people want to buy elsewhere, so you should focus your business model exclusively on the peripheral purchases of convenience hobby items, soda, chips and candy bars. Basically following a model similar to how small closet sized gas stations operate. Without retail space you could run the business in a very small location further letting you reduce your business costs as you won't need shelves or anything beyond a single employee as all you need is about 10 square feet of junk food and a paint rack, it's amazing just how wrong game stores have been approaching the business all these years.

Oddly enough, there was a hobby group that rented out a space under a corner store in the basement.
They had vending machines, rented storage space, monthly membership fee, printed apparel and affiliations with a hobby shop and a pizza place.
They actually would make a profit and use the extra for annual tournaments at the local veteran's hall and have money left over for prizes.

I have seen some gaming coffee shops taking off but they are more board game places.
I think a pleasantly lit space with nice chairs and tables could do well.
If you happen to sell stuff on the side, all the better.
Then the space can be booked for occasions for a minimal fee.
I have visions of the coffee-shop front, a warehouse in the back and you could order like in Lee Valley: from the store catalogue and have it brought to you (minimize theft too!).
I think keeping a nice looking well maintained space (and well ventilated!) would be key.
A good space off to the side would be for the various "hangers-on" that are not into gaming and are waiting on someone who is.
MTG night, LAN parties... gaming birthday parties are conceivable.
A proper ventilated booth for priming models... to be able to provide services people who live in apartments or less than understanding parents may be the thing.

 Peregrine wrote:
If you don't mind paying a little extra compared to your FLGS discount you can also order stuff online and have it delivered to his store. The local GW employee here keeps begging people to come into the store and use the in-store order point to buy their online orders because otherwise it doesn't count towards the employee's sales quotas. Nothing says " you" like going out of your way to make sure someone doesn't get credit for a sale. Except saying " you" to them directly, I guess.

This does not happen, or if it does, happens infrequently enough that I'm not in when it happens. In my experience, he only mentions it when people ask about making orders from in-store. Not sure exactly why anyone would choose to ship to a GW store instead of their house.

 techsoldaten wrote:

Yeah, but then I have to give him my phone number and he gets to snoop through my purchases. I have seen him going through boxes and calling people to tell them to come pick up their stuff. He's always complaining that the mail orders delivered to his store don't count towards his quota and talking to people on his phone keeps him from running his store. When he does get on the phone, the conversation lasts about 10 seconds and is devoid of anything resembling friendliness. People sometimes call him back because he rushes through conversations so fast they can not understand him.

I have also caught him arguing with people when something goes missing more than once, likely because he put the kit in the wrong bag and gave it away to someone else. People will take the same box off the shelf and ask if they can have it to complete their order. His response is no, call customer service, which I suppose is the only thing he can actually do once the order is that screwed up.

The other thing about the GW store is the army cabinets. Some stores invest in putting up nice models, but not this one. The house armies are a Warhammer Empire army which shouldn't even exist anymore, and an Imperial Fists army that looks like it was painted with Elmer's Glue and Crayola markers. I tell him he should learn to paint if he's going to sell things for people to paint, and he tells me I just don't understand his style (which could be best described as Stucco.)

To make up for it, he's constantly nagging people to put their armies on display in his cabinet. The cabinet has an front facing door with a broken lock anyone can open, and it's right next to the front door. Models have vanished from there a few times, which makes sense when you think about the fact a) he doesn't get to sell them so he doesn't really care and b) people would be more likely to steal the nice models instead of the Ronald McDonald marines he keeps around. There is a nice looking Fire Raptor sitting in the cabinet right now, in this store where FW is forbidden. I think the only reason it's still there is because people know he will get all over their case if they try to use it on the tables.

So no, I don't need to spend money there and there is nothing wrong with that. Spending money would just make the problem worse. My job is to entertain myself for a few hours by tormenting the shopkeep, playing a game, or both.

This is horrifying.

 Kriswall wrote:
Not really. You need to seperate GW Corporate from GW retail stores. They're not the same thing. Also, I'll guarantee that second McD's manager wouldn't be happy if he was consistently paying rent, employees, electric, etc just to provide people a place to eat food they bought elsewhere... even at another McD's.

Of course they're the same thing. Unlike the McDonald's franchise the GW store is a wholly-owned part of GW. There is no franchise owner with control over rent, employees, etc, who gets whatever profit the store makes (after paying the franchise fees). GW corporate handles all of the rent/salaries/etc, GW corporate takes all of the profit, and GW corporate absorbs any losses. The GW store "manager" is hired by GW corporate to run the cash register and interact with employees, just like any other low-level retail worker.

They have to make sales to pay employees, pay rent, pay for new product and pay the bills.

No they don't, not at all. The employee's salary is paid by GW. Rent is paid by GW. Bills are paid by GW. New product is delivered by GW, not purchased like an independent store purchases inventory. If the store fails to make enough money nobody goes bankrupt, GW simply pays more than that particular store is bringing in. They could continue doing that indefinitely if they wish, and probably will until the lease is up.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Verviedi wrote:
This does not happen, or if it does, happens infrequently enough that I'm not in when it happens. In my experience, he only mentions it when people ask about making orders from in-store.

Check the store's facebook page.

Not sure exactly why anyone would choose to ship to a GW store instead of their house.

IIRC you can get free shipping to a store on an order that won't qualify for free shipping to your house. Or spite.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Verviedi wrote:
This does not happen, or if it does, happens infrequently enough that I'm not in when it happens. In my experience, he only mentions it when people ask about making orders from in-store.

Check the store's facebook page.

Not sure exactly why anyone would choose to ship to a GW store instead of their house.

IIRC you can get free shipping to a store on an order that won't qualify for free shipping to your house. Or spite.

-EDIT- Found it, didn't scroll down enough.

Oh, thank you. I didn't know that. I'll have to make use of that the next time I order something. Granted, this will probably occur sometime in 2035. I'd love it if I could ship FW to the store for free shipping, but alas...

 Kriswall wrote:

Jacksmiles wrote:
And to the people saying it's like buying food at one place and eating it at a totally different chain, that's not true, either.

You're taking GW product to a GW to assemble/paint/play.

If you want to use the food analogy, it's actually more like buying McDonald's in a Walmart then taking it to a McDonald's to eat it.

Not really. You need to seperate GW Corporate from GW retail stores. They're not the same thing. Also, I'll guarantee that second McD's manager wouldn't be happy if he was consistently paying rent, employees, electric, etc just to provide people a place to eat food they bought elsewhere... even at another McD's.

It's more consistent of an analogy, however. The second manager may not be happy, but you're still eating McD's in a McD's. It's closer to how the situation actually plays out - the "eating Burger King in a McDonald's" would apply better if OP was building Malifaux or another game system entirely in the GW, which is understandably against company policy. Plus the analogy breaks when GW invites us to hobby in their stores without a requirement, whereas restaurants actually don't want you to bring outside food in.

This is really more of a question about whether or not there is a moral or ethical issue with using a for-profit business's facilities, provided to encourage sales, with no intention of ever buying anything from said business.

True. But being there when no one else is, or when others are and making it look more full, it still serves the purpose of encouraging sales, even if those sales aren't coming from you, doesn't it?

Real question: Are GW store employees truly given the level of decision-making people are asserting with their "I'd tell you to feth right off" statements? Like, what happens when the customer calls corporate GW to complain about a manager kicking them out for building GW products at the GW hobby station in the GW store?

I agree that you should buy product at the FLGS if you have one as, if you don't, then you will no longer have a FLGS. And you need to buy more than paint/candy as they make no profit on that stuff. My problem is that 40K has gotten so expensive that I find myself buying almost exclusively off ebay for the simple fact that I buy everything I can used anymore. I do buy my x-wing stuff and supplies at the FLGS and I am planning on picking up the Scarab Occult Termies there.

I buy 90% of my stuff online. But EVERYTIME I use a store to play I purchase $10-$50 worth of product (unless there is an entry fee for an event, then I pay that). It's my way of saying thank you for letting me play here and being available for me to do so.

There is one dedicated Independent Retailer where I live, there used to be a few bookstores that sold Warhammer but when my FLGS moved to its current location it bought up all the Warhammer minis being sold by any store around (thats how you keep sales up kids)

But i mostly use FW models now, so I buy stuff online.

I Buy local for most everything. the exceptions are quick sale items that I know my store will not have a chance of getting, like the deathwatch dice, skaven scramblers dice, ect.

In my opinion it entirely depends on the store. I've seen a lot of stores that barely stocked anything or encouraged the game; why would I bother to buy anything then where I have to order it and wait weeks for it to arrive and then pay full retail price for it anyways?

As a general rule, I place orders of several large things online almost 100% of the time because for bulk purchases the discount means I can often add another thing entirely. For single box purchases (e.g. I want a new box of X), paints (unless it's a specific range I need a specific color for) and the rest, I'll buy at the shop if they have it.

I find it peculiar that wargaming continues to want to thrive in an era where you go to a game shop to play, instead of having a club and simply using space somewhere. I've seen far too many stores that would become hostile if you dared to play a game they didn't stock (e.g. if you wanted to play Infinity at a store that didn't stock it, you'd be given dirty looks as though you are "stealing" from them), that stock nothing and doesn't support a game beyond "I have tables". IMHO just having tables isn't enough to get people to give you their business.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:
Not really. You need to seperate GW Corporate from GW retail stores. They're not the same thing. Also, I'll guarantee that second McD's manager wouldn't be happy if he was consistently paying rent, employees, electric, etc just to provide people a place to eat food they bought elsewhere... even at another McD's.

Of course they're the same thing. Unlike the McDonald's franchise the GW store is a wholly-owned part of GW. There is no franchise owner with control over rent, employees, etc, who gets whatever profit the store makes (after paying the franchise fees). GW corporate handles all of the rent/salaries/etc, GW corporate takes all of the profit, and GW corporate absorbs any losses. The GW store "manager" is hired by GW corporate to run the cash register and interact with employees, just like any other low-level retail worker.

Wow... how absolutely insulting to anyone who has ever run a retail establishment. Being characterized as a "low-level retail worker" hired to "run the cash register and interact with employees" shows either a shocking lack of understanding or an utter disdain for people you consider beneath you. I used to run a Games Workshop store. I also used to run small retail electronics stores. I've had a number of other jobs and currently work as a project manager at one of the largest private banks in the world. The retail management jobs were the hardest and most demanding thus far. I respect a successful retail manager a hell of a lot more than I respect most of the people in my current field. Most people I know would never make it in the long run as a retail manager.

A store operator has to wear so many different hats. To name just a few...
1. Customer Service Rep
2. Community Manager/Event Planner
3. Tournament Referee
4. HR guy (hiring/training/arranging cover for illness/vacation)
5. Trainer
6. Salesperson
7. Stockboy
8. Janitor
9. Register Guy
10. Hobbyist (assembling/painting store stuff)
11. etc, etc

The store operator has to do all of this for comparatively little pay, knowing that if he doesn't run a profitable operation, the store will close and he'll lose his livelihood. Getting sick means missing your goals. Going on vacation means missing your goals.

Now, you don't have to care about this guy. You don't have to participate in making him successful... but, c'mon man. Don't be a jerk and make his life harder by taking advantage of all the background work he does with no intention of ever buying anything. You may sleep better at night by telling yourself that you're using GW's tables and not this manager's tables, but who do you think cleaned the table the night before, planned and organized the events you're playing in, assembled and painted the terrain on the table you're using?

Just my thoughts. Obviously, everyone feels differently, but DO NOT make the mistake of thinking that a GW store manager/operator is just a register jockey who's been trained to rattle off certain sales phrases. It's insultingly uninformed and makes you sound like a jerk, which I'm assuming was not your intent.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Jacksmiles wrote:
Real question: Are GW store employees truly given the level of decision-making people are asserting with their "I'd tell you to feth right off" statements? Like, what happens when the customer calls corporate GW to complain about a manager kicking them out for building GW products at the GW hobby station in the GW store?

Entirely depends on your regional manager guy and your relationship with him. When I was there and someone complained, my boss would call me and ask what happened. I'd tell him and he'd just say "cool, just make sure you're considering impact on the community as a whole". That was it. Over the course of my working there, I had to ask several people to never come back. It happens. I can think of two specific examples where I told someone they needed to either buy something once in a while or hobby at home. One of them was a little embarrassed and started buying stuff once a month or so. The other threw a fit, called corporate and was shocked when I wasn't immediately fired. He never came back, which was a non-issue because he wasn't a paying customer. That's the key. If you're not a paying customer of Store X, my experience is that GW Corporate doesn't really care how you feel about Store X.

Don't forget a plumber.. I known a FLGS owner for a long time..
He is always amazed how some people can break a toilet.

But if you are not buying anything from the store or very little and other gamers
know the same trick.. how long do you think the store will last with no income
or a reason to continue stocking items that don't sale.

 Kriswall wrote:

A store operator has to wear so many different hats. To name just a few...
1. Customer Service Rep
2. Community Manager/Event Planner
3. Tournament Referee
4. HR guy (hiring/training/arranging cover for illness/vacation)
5. Trainer
6. Salesperson
7. Stockboy
8. Janitor
9. Register Guy
10. Hobbyist (assembling/painting store stuff)
11. etc, etc

The store operator has to do all of this for comparatively little pay, knowing that if he doesn't run a profitable operation, the store will close and he'll lose his livelihood. Getting sick means missing your goals. Going on vacation means missing your goals.

And this is why "low-level retail worker" hired to "run the cash register and interact with employees" is kinda correct (in the context to GW, the corporation). GW doesn't pay them for all the other stuff you mentioned (they just expect it to be done). It surely sucks for the people working there (especially in one-man stores) but it doesn't look like GW cares and you, the consumer, are not obligated to buy something just make their life easier (just in general, not talking about the morality of buying all your stuff online and then playing at a store).

In this relationship they are just low-level retail worker because while they have many responsibilities they don't have much (or any?) real power.

I think a good example would be
Ive brought a nearly new car lets say a bmw from a private seller. Now bmw have already made the money from the sale of the car and i got it cheaper which is good for me . Now can i go and hang out in there show rooms and just chill out on there comfy sofas all day sitting in the diffrent cars .
Some people coming in to the store to buy a bmw mite have to wait for me to move so they can look around a car or mite go else where to sit on a comfy sofa to decide if there going to buy the car .Im pretty sure that i would be told to leave.

The tables and painting stations are there for the use of paying customers there a bonus you get for buying things from them.

Gw are not providing you a rent and bill free space to use for you own enjoyment .

Another point gw have already made the money once the flgs has order it. It dosnt really matter if you buy it or not .

its not down to gw to provide you with the paint station
its the flgs that should be giving you that bonus if you buy from them.

Now.on gaming nights ect then its diffrent as the store is inviting you to play games its activly ask for players

Even homless shelters arnt free they rely on donations

it does make me wonder why just because you have brought an effectivly second hand product or a second hand product you get to have a free place to "live" for a couple of hours

Thats why i say moraly its wrong because you are taking somthing that was not intended for you to have
Gw dosnt advertise free paint station time as far as im aware

ian wrote:
I think a good example would be
Ive brought a nearly new car lets say a bmw from a private seller. Now bmw have already made the money from the sale of the car and i got it cheaper which is good for me . Now can i go and hang out in there show rooms and just chill out on there comfy sofas all day sitting in the diffrent cars .
Some people coming in to the store to buy a bmw mite have to wait for me to move so they can look around a car or mite go else where to sit on a comfy sofa to decide if there going to buy the car .Im pretty sure that i would be told to leave.

The tables and painting stations are there for the use of paying customers there a bonus you get for buying things from them.

Gw are not providing you a rent and bill free space to use for you own enjoyment .

Another point gw have already made the money once the flgs has order it. It dosnt really matter if you buy it or not .

its not down to gw to provide you with the paint station
its the flgs that should be giving you that bonus if you buy from them.

Now.on gaming nights ect then its diffrent as the store is inviting you to play games its activly ask for players

Even homless shelters arnt free they rely on donations

it does make me wonder why just because you have brought an effectivly second hand product or a second hand product you get to have a free place to "live" for a couple of hours

Thats why i say moraly its wrong because you are taking somthing that was not intended for you to have
Gw dosnt advertise free paint station time as far as im aware

https://jobs.games-workshop.com/do-you-want-to-run-a-games-workshop-store-2/

Games Workshop store ad, on the GW site as per their discussion, not mine.


Seriously, your discussing a game store and the moral ambiguity of playing with the toys.

GW has gaming, hobby and painting in the stores. Each and every one has this, its part of the "Charm".

The reason that they PROVIDE this service is to increase the hobby, and sales. It is a sales gimmick, and in turn helps to promote the hobby aspect. If your local GW manager is saying a thing about it, he will soon be an EX manager. All he cares about is a sales target, if you get some stuff from store A, and some stuff from store B, no one cares. seriously. If you think other wise, please join the real world. That store is in that specific location, BTW to COMPETE with your local FLGS's. Its not there just because GW thought it was a nice place to work. They did a cost analysis, sales targeting, and crunched numbers. You have a game community, they spend XYZ, GW wants a cut. AND they judge it a good investment to get in on your local area. Seriously.

BMW, like GW, is a luxury Item. using the false narrative of a moral ambiguity is a lot like someone begging for change on the street, only to find out that they are a millionaire. Or more like one of those Mega churches, begging for your chump change and last dollar as they pass the plate around, while someone goes home in a Limo.

The GW "HHHobby Centers" are part in parcel to the charm of the "HHHobby". From the horses mouth, it is a hobby center and store, designed to push the hobby, sells the product and be a general all around pitch to increase the popularity of the hobby. If the Manager is not doing that, He will also be an Ex GW employee.

http://investor.games-workshop.com/our-business-model/

Your Example of the BMW is on par, seeing as the last time I was in one, I not only got a cup of good coffee, but the BMW's were there to be taken for a ride, and the sales person was not in there to sell Hondas. The cup of coffee is equal to the painting/ modeling stations, The game play area is along the lines of the nice couch to sit on. BOTH of these companies are international companies, they do not haggle about small change. ( I.E. bringing in a model and putting it together, painting it, and playing in the store, As long as it is a GW model. Shoe would be on the other foot if I was to go to a BMW store with a Honda, and have them work on it while I sit in the store, looking at a magazine that I brought in about Honda's. OR in line with me bringing in Warmachine, and playing a game on their table.

And to the "Ex GW employee", I say nuts to that as well. You know that that was a false dichotomy, especially when we are talking about a company that has on occasion called its "Valued Customers" Plebes, Yokels, and the clever other gifs that they spout off about as they act morally superior to other low wage employees in sales and store work. Get over it, its a minimum wage sales job for temporary work. NOT a serious "career", unless you cut your teeth right. (Just like any other employment.)

Here is an overview of how they operate from Indeed.com , and here is the strongest statement yet of the working psychology-

http://www.indeed.com/cmp/Games-Workshop/reviews

This one here says it best, I think-

" The stores are, at time of writing, mostly one-man shows. This means that you are responsible and in charge 99% of the time, which is as good and as bad as it sounds. The other significant aspect of the business model is the company's vision of the stores as "hobby centers." This means that customers (or otherwise) are encouraged to remain in the store for extended (i.e. all day if they choose) periods of time to participate in the hobby (playing games or building/painting models). All of this alters the usual perspectives on work environment and management. You essentially have no coworkers, but you will see core groups of regulars on a weekly basis, so learning to "work" with them becomes a must (since ideally, you want them to be customers on a regular basis as well). Also, as mentioned, you are the management--at the local level. There is literally no one looking over your shoulder for months at a time. So consider the pros and cons of that. Whether or not you can thrive in this culture will be entirely up to what you are suited for."

And

"GW expects a high level of commitment from all of its employees. This can be a positive if you drink their Kool Aid and like the way it tastes. If you disagree with company policy or see a contradiction between the values that management espouses and their behavior, get out before you burn out. Follow those two broad and cryptic guidelines and you'll love working for GW. I certainly did, until I didn't."

Very rare that I see a BMW employee say this...
Indeed. com discussion for working at BMW. ( A completely different level of sales, BTW.)

http://www.indeed.com/cmp/BMW/reviews

This one here says it best, in comparison-

My day started pretty great 8:45 in the morning, still early, but not extremely early. I would wash cars that were serviced, loaned out or on the lot that hadn't been cleaned. Sometimes if there was time, I would clean up the inside of the dealership too.
What I learned was that I can always improve as long as you work at it, even if slow. I also learned the importance of communication and keeping negative comments or attitudes to yourself.

The management was very good. Solved any concerns immediately and in a quick fashion. Family oriented, worked around schedule, if needed. Friendly, yet firm and encouraging not demanding.

My co-workers were amazing people as well. Very helpful and lent a hand when needed. Went to the source when problems occurred and approachable.
The hardest part of the job was keeping up with the fast pace, when sometimes understaffed, but unwilling to hire someone else to help.
The most enjoyable part of the job was getting the exercise and the approachable attitude of most people there. Honored my schedule and stayed predictable through out.

I used to be a GW manager... tough racket...

In the end, You are building your models, don't think a thing about it. Have fun and worry more about the changing names of the paints then hurting GW's delicate feelings.

Thing about GW is that the prices that support their stores are already built into their pricing model.

You've already bought their product and the painting stations are more of their advertisement scheme, using them is part of the perks for buying their product. They don't have free paints to use anymore so you still have to use the paint you own in their shop.

You've paid for it, you use it.

This is significantly different from buying elsewhere and using an independent shop's resources. An independent doesn't have a large corporation to prop him up, support as much as you can.

 Kriswall wrote:
Most people I know would never make it in the long run as a retail manager.

That could be said about huge swathes of jobs.

An actual small business owner has to do all those things as well, but they have the added stress of paying the rent, having tens if not hundreds of thousands of their own dollars on the line (or possibly having borrowed it and needing to pay it back), having to deal with multiple distributors and has to worry about putting food on the table if they don't make enough sales to cover all the other costs. A GW store manager might quit or get fired if they don't make enough sales, but it's a long way off the ball and chain you carry if you are the actual store *owner*.

The main thing I feel sorry about GW store managers is they're hamstrung by GW. GW store managers are actively competing AGAINST GW's other sales channels, whether it's the online store or independent retailers who have more freedom to price match, reductions and offer incentives. I bought a kit from GW the other day for the first time in a couple of years. I show up, it's not in stock.... it is in stock at the FLGS down the road but whatever I'll support the GW store manager because he's a nice guy so I'll order it in. To order it in I have to pay for it on the spot (which is crap, I don't do that anywhere else). It takes me longer to go through the process of ordering it than if I'd just bought it online (which is crap, at the FLGS if I want something I just tell him what I want and give him my phone number). And now when it comes in I have to go back to the shop to pick it up (unlike ordering online where it would have been sent to my door for free).

So I've paid more, have to wait longer, it's consumed more of my time, and I'll still have to go out of my way to pick it up

GW should be doing their best to assign credit to store owners for as much as possible, not hamstringing them like that. They don't get credit for fostering a community which is really their foremost purpose within the GW as a whole.

But that's GW's fault, not mine, I'm not going to personally feel responsible for him for working for a stupid company.

me I find no conundrum with the OP's question I buy where it is cheapest (currently eBay), but then again I don't frequent the few local game stores either and paint at home.

as to the OP's question, buy at the cheap place and paint at home.

xraytango wrote:
Thing about GW is that the prices that support their stores are already built into their pricing model.

You've already bought their product and the painting stations are more of their advertisement scheme, using them is part of the perks for buying their product. They don't have free paints to use anymore so you still have to use the paint you own in their shop.

You've paid for it, you use it.

This is significantly different from buying elsewhere and using an independent shop's resources. An independent doesn't have a large corporation to prop him up, support as much as you can.

This is spot on, GW's retail chain has long been a stone dragging them down part of the high costs is subsidizing the shops.

If you've bought something from anywhere besides eBay you've paid to use their stores.

A quick paragraph provided from the link above

Each store is designed to complement the customer experience. As well as containing all the products a customer could desire, they feature display cabinets, painting stations and gaming tables all designed to inspire our customers and provide an environment in which to demonstrate our products.

The store is there based on you being a customer .
You are not a customer if you have brought the product off a 3rd party. The third party is then gw customer.

To suggest that gw is running these stores as primarly advertising just isnt it if they just wanted to promot there product they could save 1000s of pounds by using flgs to promote there products.

The stores are there for you to primarly buy from and in turn you get the benifits .
Its already been pointed out that if everybody stoped buying from there then the store would close . Which again suggest that if the stores primary focus is as a shop.

If you just use a gw store for your own free place to "live" for a couple of hours then you are taking advatage. Just because other people are providing enough money for the store to be viable dosnt mean you are entiled to have that benifit.

Now i am basing this on a busy store where there is a demand for painting stations and tables and you are stoping other people benifiting . There should always be a space left for customers buying from the store and if not, then at that point you are taking a benfit away from another person which is why i say moraly thats wrong .

On the other hand if the store is dead then gw does get a benifit from you being there and in that case painting your "own" models is ok as your promoting the hobby .
Like most things in life its not black and white



Automatically Appended Next Post:
I have one question that you should ask yourself .

If you had just brought a model from the gw store and wanted to have help and advice whislt building it as your a new player . but you couldnt do that because the space was being taken up by people who had brought second hand models into paint and hadnt contributed to that store being viable in any way

How would you feel about that ?

ian wrote:
To suggest that gw is running these stores as primarly advertising just isnt it if they just wanted to promot there product they could save 1000s of pounds by using flgs to promote there products.

To suggest that gw is running these stores as primarly sales just isnt it if they just wanted to sell there product they could save 1000s of pounds by using flgs to sell there products.

The simple truth here is that GW's stores are primarily about marketing, not sales. GW can sell their products through independent stores and through their own online store, and in fact that's the standard in the US. What they can't get anywhere else is the opportunity to market their products in an environment where only GW's products can be sold. The goal of GW's retail stores is to lock you into the GW-only system where you don't buy third-party paints, tools, conversion parts, etc. Even if you make your final purchase elsewhere GW is still making money on the sale, and still has you committed to buying only GW products.

Its already been pointed out that if everybody stoped buying from there then the store would close . Which again suggest that if the stores primary focus is as a shop.

It suggests no such thing. First of all, we don't know that GW would close a store just because in-store sales do not cover all of the store's expenses. It's quite possible that GW would leave the store open if sales of GW products through other channels in that area are still strong, implying that the store's marketing function is still contributing to sales. Or maybe they wouldn't. But the "if everyone stopped buying" scenario ignores the fact that a situation where nobody buys anything anymore pretty strongly implies that GW's sales are weak everywhere else as well, and the store isn't marketing successfully. It would be very hard to imagine a real-world scenario where the 40k community in an area is strong but nobody is buying.

Now i am basing this on a busy store where there is a demand for painting stations and tables and you are stoping other people benifiting.

IOW, you're basing it on something other than a GW store.

There should always be a space left for customers buying from the store and if not, then at that point you are taking a benfit away from another person which is why i say moraly thats wrong.

How are you "taking away" a benefit that nobody had in the first place? If I can't say "I'm using this table now, move your stuff out of my way" then I never had the right to that table. You're making the assumption that there is a "buy stuff and get table space in exchange" deal going on, despite the store making no such agreement.

If you had just brought a model from the gw store and wanted to have help and advice whislt building it as your a new player . but you couldnt do that because the space was being taken up by people who had brought second hand models into paint and hadnt contributed to that store being viable in any way

How would you feel about that ?

I'd feel like the store is doing a terrible job of helping new customers, and I'd wonder what idiot decided that a single employee is sufficient staff for such a busy store. I'd probably wonder why the single employee is over hanging out with the regulars instead of doing their job. And I'd certainly wonder why the store doesn't have some kind of formal policy of "only models purchased in this store may be built or painted here" or table-use credits for in-store purchases or whatever, and allows any random person who wants to use the space to come in and take it. Finally, I'd wonder why I suddenly became so incompetent at life that I can't even build a plastic model kit without having someone hold my hand through the process, and probably stab myself to death with a $50000 Games™ Workshop™ Hobby™ Knife™ out of shame.

However, at no point would I think to blame the people who are making use of what the store offers.

Firstly how about a 14 year old who is new to hobbying and has never even put a model together ,im sure they could do with some help.

The managers are under heavy sales targets for a reason . If its about advertising then there would be a suitable targets created to measure that ie how many people attend club nights ,how full are the painting stations.

Its a retail shop in a retail location paying retail rates. The primary focus is sell models and advertise .

This is diffrent from saying that they are giving everbody a free place to hang out because in a busy store if your never a customer then your freeloading off of everybody else they are the reason why the store is open.

If everybody was to buy online gw could just advertise online there would be no need for a store and you would lose your free painting station.

Each store is designed to complement the customer experience.

Its not a free place for anybody to hang out and once a non customer is becoming a detriment to paying customers its time for them to consider if moraly there fine with that
And unfortunatly in this world there are plenty of people who will take what they want without thinking about how there actions mite impact on somebody else

The reason people are saying the cost of GW models is paying for being able to play at GW stores even if you didn't buy them at a GW store is we know GW stores lose money. It's right there in their financial reports, GW stores lost 3.4 million pounds last year.

GW stores are part of a larger business plan, they specifically talk about loss-making stores in their financial reports because that's part of their plan.

What that means is you're paying for their hobby stores regardless of whether you actually buy from them because the cost of a model has the cost of a GW retail store added on top of it even if you didn't buy it from the GW retail store.

So it's totally justified for customers to feel they bought the ability to play in a GW store even if they didn't buy in a GW store.

The problem is GW's business plan doesn't extend to store managers. Store manager's success is only judged on sales, when really it should be judged on how many people pass through the doors, how many intro games are played, how many tournaments are run and how many people attended, how much involvement the store has in the local clubs, how much the local community either grows or shrinks (as measured through not only the store's sales but also webstore sales).

If you bought GW product you are a GW customer. The only distinction is you might not be a customer of that specific manager.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Battlesong wrote:
And you need to buy more than paint/candy as they make no profit on that stuff.

If you buy a kit every few months just so you don't feel like a dick about playing in the store, they aren't really making much profit off you anyway. Especially if it's an FLGS who's offering 15% discount, that means on a $50 kit they're charging $42, $30 of which goes to GW and they only make $12.

I have no problem with a game store that charges for use of the tables and also charges for food and drink in addition to selling miniatures. They're a business and they're in it to make money so if they think it's worth money for me to be playing on their tables, charge me money to play on the tables. Don't try and hide the cost of the tables in the miniatures when probably 90% of your miniature buying customers are never going to use the tables and don't guilt the table users in to buying miniatures they don't want to buy. Offer coupons to play on the tables for customers who buy models if you want people to be more likely to buy models from your store than the store next door.

Sitting in the corner fuming about how the person playing at the table hasn't spent enough money in the last year to justify your time or even worse actually telling people to stop playing on the tables if they aren't buying if a terrible way to run a business IMO.

That GW insists on running their own stores like that is their problem, not mine.

Retail - provides the focus for the Hobby in their areas. They only stock Games Workshop product. They are where we recruit the majority of our new customers. To do so the stores don't offer the full range of our product, just new release product and the appropriate extended range. At the year end we had 451 Games Workshop stores in 20 countries. Our stores contributed 41% of the year's sales. We have 355 one man stores, small sites, each one staffed by only one store manager. We also have 96 multi-man stores, which are constantly reviewed to ensure they remain profitable. If not, they will be closed and replaced with one man stores.

This is from the 2016 anual report i havnt read it all ,but that doesnt sound like the stores are there just to advertise there products
if there not profitable then there gone (i do relise its replaced with one man stores but im sure it also mean shutting down non profit ones)

And so is your gaming table painting station or at the very least less avaiable space.

Pay where you play

And if your stopping customers from playing games or using tables that they have contirbutate to because they support the store

Then please give them prority because from a moral view point they are the ones keeping the store open

Yeah, so the multi-man stores are constantly reviewed and if not they are not making a profit they replaced with one man stores.

Obviously it would be ideal if GW stores were making a profit, but GW persists with stores even though on a whole they are losing them money.

That means the cost of having those stores is subsidised by sales through the webstore and independents, if it wasn't those stores would be out of business.

Even in your own quote it says "To do so the stores don't offer the full range of our product, just new release product and the appropriate extended range". GW store managers have to compete with a webstore and independent stores that are often better stocked than their own shelves. GW obviously views them as a part of a whole, not a singular entity, they just treat them like singular entities when judging store managers because it suits them in that particular circumstance.

We opened 48 new stores in the year including 7 relocated stores. These new stores generated £2.1 million of sales and made a loss of £0.1 million. Due to the under performance of some of our new stores in Continental Europe, we have paused any new store openings in this territory for 2016/17. Our main focus for store openings will be North America. This will allow us to focus on improving our existing store performance.

More information to surport that stores need to be profitable

ian wrote:
Then please give them prority because from a moral view point they are the ones keeping the store open

From a moral point of view they're a business trying to win my money and if they fail to do that, it's their problem, not mine.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

ian wrote:
We opened 48 new stores in the year including 7 relocated stores. These new stores generated £2.1 million of sales and made a loss of £0.1 million. Due to the under performance of some of our new stores in Continental Europe, we have paused any new store openings in this territory for 2016/17. Our main focus for store openings will be North America. This will allow us to focus on improving our existing store performance.

More information to surport that stores need to be profitable

Since you love quoting the annual report....

Total segment operating profit is as follows and is reconciled to profit before taxation below:

Retail -3,410,000

Retail stores lost 3.4 million pounds, the year prior they lost 1.5 million pounds.

Obviously they aren't TRYING to lose money, but the fact they are and yet still persisting with it shows that stores are part of a larger business plan.

Thats fine but what about the space your taking from there loyal customers .
Why should they have to miss out thefe the reason the store is there. ( a degree of common sense is required here its if your always stopping customers playing )

Its not black and white and the moral issue is for the stores customers not the store itself

ian wrote:
Thats fine but what about the space your taking from there loyal customers .
Why should they have to miss out thefe the reason the store is there. ( a degree of common sense is required here its if your always stopping customers playing )

Its not black and white and the moral issue is for the stores customers not the store itself

Then it's up to the store to tell the players "hey guys, someone else wants to play, can you wrap it up after this game".

Or, they should just charge for the tables and reduce model prices instead of expecting customers to decide whether they've spent enough money this month to play on the tables.

Again, I'm not responsible for their failing business practices. I won't and can't give them enough money to keep their doors open if they don't know how to manage themselves.