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I have a question and since the thread for 5th edition has been locked here it is. Will skimmers in 5th edition block line of sight or will you still be able to shoot thru them? Because so far with my Tau I have a strategy where I use my devilfish as buffers so that assault units have to trudge around em while being shot at by my firewarriors inside. If I can't shoot thru my skimmers my strat. goes down the drain.

Latest, still-active 5th ed rumours thread

thesuperiorninja wrote:I have a question and since the thread for 5th edition has been locked here it is. Will skimmers in 5th edition block line of sight or will you still be able to shoot thru them? Because so far with my Tau I have a strategy where I use my devilfish as buffers so that assault units have to trudge around em while being shot at by my firewarriors inside. If I can't shoot thru my skimmers my strat. goes down the drain.

All will be revealed in July. You can't wait 2 months?

two_heads_talking wrote:

thesuperiorninja wrote:I have a question and since the thread for 5th edition has been locked here it is. Will skimmers in 5th edition block line of sight or will you still be able to shoot thru them? Because so far with my Tau I have a strategy where I use my devilfish as buffers so that assault units have to trudge around em while being shot at by my firewarriors inside. If I can't shoot thru my skimmers my strat. goes down the drain.

All will be revealed in July. You can't wait 2 months?

Why wait?


Also, some of us are trying to plan for early 5th-ed tournaments (e.g., LVGT is 55 days after release); the more we can find out now, the less we have to frantically (re)paint upon rules launch.

Thanks for today's lesson in 'how to abuse the rules to your advantage'.

I'm certainly glad you've gone out of your way to not only abuse the rules, but to inquire as to whether the future version of the game will continue to enable your abuses. Yay.

"Abuse" = "use in a way which I don't like"

stormtitan wrote:Thanks for today's lesson in 'how to abuse the rules to your advantage'.

I'm certainly glad you've gone out of your way to not only abuse the rules, but to inquire as to whether the future version of the game will continue to enable your abuses. Yay.

What was that? Sorry, I can't quite hear you over the sound of a mewling larvae who apparently needs changed.

Oh... sorry, it was you after all.

Is there really anyone who has a serious contention that Fish of Fury is abusive? Not to mention the fact that being good at the game is largely dependant on having a good knowledge of the rules, which makes the question a pretty good one.

Wehrkind wrote:

stormtitan wrote:Thanks for today's lesson in 'how to abuse the rules to your advantage'.

I'm certainly glad you've gone out of your way to not only abuse the rules, but to inquire as to whether the future version of the game will continue to enable your abuses. Yay.

What was that? Sorry, I can't quite hear you over the sound of a mewling larvae who apparently needs changed.

Oh... sorry, it was you after all.

Is there really anyone who has a serious contention that Fish of Fury is abusive? Not to mention the fact that being good at the game is largely dependant on having a good knowledge of the rules, which makes the question a pretty good one.

Hear hear!

How dare you abuse the rules by sitting in cover to gain a save against my lascannons! HOW DARE YOU!

Just my 2 cents...

Fish of Fury (what a lame name for a TAU tactic, but whatev...) is rules abusive, but that's only an opinion and I'll get to that later. For all you's peoples who don't like "abusive" rules, a skilled general can deal with it. You either got the skill to outthink your opponent or you don't. "Rules abuse" will ALWAYS happen, you can man up or forum troll and complain, your call.

As for the individual tactic, I don't like it, which is again as a personal opinion. But for me it's more than just "abusing the rules" per se. I'm sure I'll get attacked by certain people for this, but I like to have some common sense in my games, and that includes visual common sense. You're telling me that the fire warriors zip their transport up into battle, get out, line up in an 18th century redcoat rifle line, and fire, reload, fire, repeat? What about the exhaust, forcefield, whatever else is keeping the fish in the air? Doesn't affect their shots? They can see therough all the dust and dirt and small flying debris kicked up by 2 JET ENGINES pointed at the ground? I don't buy it, it sounds completely rediculous.

As for the in-game tactic... that's why God created Snikrot, drop pods and land raiders. You telling me your chaos chosen squad, after their transport land raider tank shocks the pathetic little fishies and brutally forces them out of the way, you're telling me your chaos chosen squad doesn't absolutely SALIVATE at the prospect of assaulting 2 or 3 fire warrior sqauds at the same time? You adapt, you deal with it, then you laugh with all your buddies during lunch break at the scumbag player you had for round 2...

EDIT: Stupid auto-correction of offensive language... scumbag was NOT the term I used, lol

storm titan, your post... oh, nevermind. Not worth replying to.

Now can we please stop sniping and reply to the original poster?

thesuperiorninja, the tactic that you describe is called the "Fish of Fury" (abbreviated FoF), as you may know. It's perfectly legit, as shooting armies need to use every advantage that they can in a game where CC units get to attack twice as often (own turn and opponent's turn) than shooters. Don't let anyone give you crap over it, especially CC army players that use killzone sniping to maximize their own army's potential. I'm with Wehrkind- it's a legit tactic, and your question is a good one. To answer that:

In 5th edition, the rumor is that shooting through units will give the models on the other side a 4+ cover save. This includes your own units. In other words, you will still be able to use FoF, but the enemy will get 4+ cover saves against it.

This is a major downgrade in some situations, but not much of a problem in others. Anything that would have gotten a 3+ save anyways (Marines) will be unaffected, and FoF will be just as good. The same goes for enemies in cover- they would have gotten it anyways, so no change.

Your loss of function will come with units that would have gotten no save before, due to your weapon's AP. Since half your shots will be ineffective against these targets, you will have to hit them with twice as many shots to be effective. Another change coming in 5th is an emphasis on Troops, so taking twice as many Fire Warrior squads may be a solution to both these issues- the need for more Fire Warriors shooting, and the need for more Troops on the objective. Of course the points will have to come out of some other part of your list, and you may already have most of your Troops slots spoken for. Plus Fire Warrors don't have anti-tank capacity, so you have some balancing to do if considering dropping something else for more FoF squads. But it's something to consider.

Hope that helps. I'm not a Tau player, but I do use a similar tactic with Wave-Serpent-mounted Dire Avengers. Their Bladestorm is going to be hampered in the same situations (units whose armor it would have pierced), but it's less of an issue for the DAs as 4+ armor units would have gotten their save either way, and the DAs can survive combat if anything lives through the Bladestorm (unlike Fire Warriors). But I'm thinking about how to deal with the same issues. As I suggested above, I'm adding another unit of mounted DAs to my list, at the cost of some Heavy Support and Elite choices (Falcons full of Fire Dragons, most likely). We'll see whether it still balances well.

DeathGod:

"Rules abuse" will ALWAYS happen, you can man up or forum troll and complain, your call.

We can all see which path you've chosen.

DeathGod wrote:As for the individual tactic, I don't like it, which is again as a personal opinion. But for me it's more than just "abusing the rules" per se. I'm sure I'll get attacked by certain people for this, but I like to have some common sense in my games, and that includes visual common sense. You're telling me that the fire warriors zip their transport up into battle, get out, line up in an 18th century redcoat rifle line, and fire, reload, fire, repeat? What about the exhaust, forcefield, whatever else is keeping the fish in the air? Doesn't affect their shots? They can see therough all the dust and dirt and small flying debris kicked up by 2 JET ENGINES pointed at the ground? I don't buy it, it sounds completely rediculous.

To be honest DeathGod, I agree with your criticism of the reality of the situation. However, the tactic is not rules abusive: the rules were inadequate for describing reality. The new cover rule for intervening units (while quite general) corrects that. The lack of a cover save in the 4th rules is probably due to the targetting priority rules being in place: having to make a test AND losing half your shots to cover would have made shooting untenable otherwise. I think the new rule is better.

...Fish of Fury (what a lame name for a TAU tactic, but whatev...) is rules abusive, but that's only an opinion and I'll get to that later. For all you's peoples who don't like "abusive" rules, a skilled general can deal with it. You either got the skill to outthink your opponent or you don't. "Rules abuse" will ALWAYS happen, you can man up or forum troll and complain, your call....

As for the in-game tactic... that's why God created Snikrot, drop pods and land raiders. You telling me your chaos chosen squad, after their transport land raider tank shocks the pathetic little fishies and brutally forces them out of the way, you're telling me your chaos chosen squad doesn't absolutely SALIVATE at the prospect of assaulting 2 or 3 fire warrior sqauds at the same time? You adapt, you deal with it, then you laugh with all your buddies during lunch break at the scumbag player you had for round 2...

It's funny that you call FoF "rules abusive", and then cite other units to deal with it that are equally powerful due to being designed as uncommonly good versions of common 40K rules/tactics. Pods are better versions of Deepstrike, Snikrot is a better version of Infiltrate, FoF is a better version of bail-and-spray. All three of these things are powerful, but not broken. One needs to know how to deal with them to be a good player. They're all common tactics, not loopholes. They were designed to be the way that they are. You're right that calling FoF "abusive" is an opinion. My (reasoned) opinion is that it's not abusive, but an extreme case that was designed to be the way it is to compensate for the Tau's extreme CC disadvantages.

The Land Raider tactic, though, is a good way to deal with FoF (if you've got one close enough). So is the use of jump infantry on flanks, bikes on flanks, etc. Thinking like that is good tactics. Merely pouting over another army's tactics is not. Not saying that you're pouting (stormtitan definitely is), but the complaining tone of your post gets in the way of communicating well about the tactic, it's shortcomings and it's advantages.

DeathGod, have you ever played using Tau, or any other pure-shooting army in 40K? From your post, I guess that you have not. If you did so, you might see the other side of the coin. They're honestly very hard to compete with. I play Eldar, using some similar tactics, but with a lesser degree of urgency. Tau are my frequent opponents. I tried playing them once, and found it very difficult but a really interesting challenge. You may find it the same. At the very least, it will further highlight their shortcomings and help you develop more anti-FoF tactics.

Ok, Savnok, I'll grant you that. Shall I change my term to "Intent Abuse?" My point wasn't that "abuse" is a bad thing. It's just a thing. For me, PERSONALY, it detracts from my enjoyment to a small degree.

That being said, perhaps the point of my original post was too subtle. Perhaps I should have said "Storm Titan, stfu and leave a good post alone." I chose a sneaky tactic like giving examples of counters to FoF.

IMHO, all's fair that the MRB and your codexes allow. Adapt. Or go play prepainteds, I heard Heroclix is coming out with a new waste of time...

As for your other question, Savnock, I have played shooting armies... Eldar, Tau both included. When I choose to do armies though, its because something intrigues me about the army, whether it be story-related (like when I did my Templars) or model-related (like my newest monstrosity, da orks). How said army operates on the tabletop is a secondary choice... that is, once I've decided on a theme/conversion ideas/etc, I try to find a way to translate that to tabletop effectiveness. For me, tabletop performance is only 1/3rd of the wargaming trifecta, and is less important than the other two, as it makes up for the least amount (by far) of my time spent in the hobby.

Anyway. This thread has already gone off topic.

lock-down.