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I am writing about my road to the LVGT here:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/wiki/en/Blackmoor+goes+to+the+Las+Vegas+GT+%2840K%29+

And I am at the stage where I have to select an army.

Since this is a no comp tournament, what army should I take to the LVGT?

I know that I should take the hardest, cheesiest army I can make, but I have never been that type. I do not want to play Orks, I have a Tyranid list, but I am not interested in playing them. Necrons and Tau are out as I never liked those. I played Eldar last year, so I do not really want to play them again either.

So how do I pick an army?

I choose a theme I am interested in, and build my army around it.

So here are the armies I am interested in from the ones that I want to do the least, to the ones that I want to do the most. :


#7 Eldar
Theme: Harlequins.
I like the idea of doing a harlequin army from the Citadel Journal. I will take the units from the journal, and try to convert them into the new Eldar codex.
The look: It will be a colorful army. Everything will be a mix of the new Harlequins and the older models. The Venoms will be modeled out of a combination of a vyper added to a DE raider body. The jetbikes will be modeled with the harlequin jetbike canopys. The Dark Reapers will be Death Jesters converted hold reaper launchers.
Models needed: None
Pros: Tough army. If painted right, looks great.
Cons: I did Eldar last year, and I want to try something else. About a year ago this was going to be my Baltimore GT army. Very few models to paint, but they need to be painted to such detail it takes a long time.

#6 Space Marines/DH/WH
Theme: High Lords of Terra
The look: Each unit represents a High Lord of Terra.
Models needed: ?
Basing: Urban Rubble
Pros: I have no idea how the parts will work as a whole.
Cons: I do not have a lot of the units that I will need. It will take a lot of modeling.

#5 Space Wolves
Theme: Space Wolves are their own theme.
The look: Snow, land speeders as snow mobiles, bikes as snow mobiles.
Models needed: LR Crusader upgrade kit.
Basing: Snow
Pro: Space Wolves look great.
Cons: Slightly effective build is with Drop Pods which I do not want to buy. New codex coming out soon. Very few troops, and do to the nature of the army will see a lot of action.

#4 Space Marines/Chaos Space Marines
Theme: Pre Heresy Thousand Sons.
The look: The red TS colors. Egyptian symbols etc. Trying to match the look of the Colors of War books with the Sabertooth artwork.
Models needed: Metal Land Speeders/None Need decals printed
Basing: Urban Rubble
Pros: Regular MEQ durability. Can be built either as a SM or CSM army. SM can be built with 4 librarians shooting 4 fury of the ancients. CSM can take Ahriman and TS Marines with additional sorcerers.
Cons: CSM suffer with the theme because they need Oblits to be effective. SM Leadership 8. CSM can take Ahriman

# 3 Demons
Theme: Pure Tzeentch Demons
The look: All metal models are hard to convert, so it will be basic, but the Horrors will be very colorful. Extra attention and conversions on the HQ models and Soulgrinders.
Models needed: 10-20 horrors
Basing: Lava
Pros: First turn shooting. Durability
Cons: Deep strike and splitting the army in 2. Unknown how the army will perform.


#2 Witch Hunters
Theme: SoB + DH -=I=-
The look: All metal models are hard to convert, so it will be basic. Celestine will be given Pegasus wings and a Nightbringer base. The rhinos will be given the Immolator upgrade kits. The vehicles will be lit up with LEDs. The display board will be a cathedral.
Models needed: 2-3 Exorcists
Basing: Urban Rubble
Pros: Good with Hordes and MEQs
Cons: Poor assault. Very dependant on exorcists.

#1 Imperial Guard+DH
Theme: Chaos Renegades.
The look: This will be an IG army using forge world renegades. The vehicles and everything else will be chaosified. The Basilisk will have a hellcannon’s barrel. The Inquisitor will be a Dark Magus, and his retinue will be chaotic. The assassin will be a combination of demonette + death cult assassin. The grey knights will have a lot of chaos bits added.
Models needed: 20 forge world renegades. LR Demolisher bits
Basing: Urban Rubble
Pros: Hard to say.
Cons: Godzilla Nids troublesome.

Go with the Daemons! You've got mad skills, show us what can be done with the new 'dex!

Based on what I know of your playing style, Allan, I'd go with sisters of battle.

Well, I'd say go with any of the last three options since none of them are a MEq army. Eldar as you said, you've done before and they are pretty abundant at GTs. I'm going to second the WH/DH army as I think they are better than given credit for and will be quite nice against what I feel is going to be a lot of horde style armies at the upcoming GTs.

Here are the Witchhunter results from last years GTs

Name/Army /Battle Points /Placement

LVGT
John Steele/ Witchhunters/ 70 / 47
Jesse Barnes/ Witchhunters /44 / 60
C.J. Young/ Witchhunters/ 46 / 75
Nicholas Thompkins/ Sisters of Battle/ 37 /99
Bill Souza/ Witchhunters /43 /124

Chicago GT
Bortner, Adam /Sisters of B / 50 / 84
Shively, Jeff /Witchhunte/ 13 / 107

Baltimore GT
Monty Kerr /Witch Hunters /63 /37
Steve Bickers /Sisters of Battle /66 / 75
Jason McCarthy /Sisters of Battle /46 / 81

Not very impressive. Only 10 armies played total, and the highest battle points are 70, and the highest placement is 37th. The average placement is 78.9.

Sisters are definitely a tough army to play, tactically. A big question is whether you're going to go with mech sisters or something else.

Correct, but I believe 5th edition will change alot of that. Skimmers will supposedly get a nerf, horde armies are like orks are going to be popular (along with daemons I'll bet) and sisters is one of the few armies that already uses lots of troops choices.

I'd be curious what kind of list you were thinking. the SOB + DH =I= sounds interesting. Also this talk of Celestine. I don't see her much in competitive lists.

Sgt_Scruffy wrote:Correct, but I believe 5th edition will change alot of that. Skimmers will supposedly get a nerf, horde armies are like orks are going to be popular (along with daemons I'll bet) and sisters is one of the few armies that already uses lots of troops choices.

That is kind of why I like them. They seem to do ok vs. hordes, and some others, but it would seem like they will have all kinds of problems against some armies if they start losing their Exorcists. Also, they are going to struggle against AV14 in 5th edition (at long range) since they can only kill them on a glancing 6.

I'd be curious what kind of list you were thinking. the SOB + DH =I= sounds interesting.

Not really that much DH. Only a Kyoto pattern DH Inq for mystics to keep a lot of nastiness away. It should slow down drop troop guard, Demons, Lysander and anything else that drops from the sky.

Also this talk of Celestine. I don't see her much in competitive lists.

I guess this has to do with my own personal army building philosophy. I like the units that are like Swiss army knives that can fill many rolls. I like how she can kick butt in assault, has a flamer, and since she comes back, she is good at point denial. (This philosophy is why I get into arguments about Dark Reapers. I like the Missile launcher for the Exarch so he can fill many rolls, but a lot of people like them the outfitted only for a single purpose).

And as far you not seeing her in competitive list, look above at how they WH faired in the GTs, and so you might see why I want to try something different

I vote for mech WH.

Yeah, the exorcists are the weak link in the army. However, Seraphim are stupid good. I've used them before to "hop-scotch" up the flanks of the board and into the opponents back-field so that the superior with evicerator can go to work on tanks and/or devastators.

A thought just occured to me: the IC protection rule is gone in 5th right? Does this nerf the jump pack cannoness? If so, what's the new cannoness build?

Build 1
Cannoness- evicerator, cloak, book, brazier
9 Celestians- 2 meltas/flamers, vet w/evicerator
Rhino- extra armor, smoke

Pros- another rhino make the rhino rush that much more effective. Celestians (while not great at combat, do get preferred enemy everyone and they can be extra burny with the cannoness and vet having braziers or combi-weapons).

Cons- not scoring. Only ways I could think of to get the cannoness into a vehicle is either celestians or dominions. I guess if you take Celestine, you don't need a cannoness (2 faith is nice though)

I vote for Daemons for a couple of reasons:
1) They aren't MEQs
2) Since they are new, fewer people will have played against them and they have a unique play-style that might throw people off.

Hope to see you there!

Tzeentch is a good demon army for a couple of reasons.

The first is since they are shooting based they can have an immediate impact when they come down. Taken in enough numbers, they can really dish out some firepower at 18”. If you take 40 Horrors, that is 120 shots doing 30 wounds to T4 models.

The second reason why they are good is Fateweaver. Since Tzeentch already has a 4+ inv save with adding a re-roll makes them very hard to kill. Heck, you have a 25% chance to kill a horror which is better than the 33% to get past a Space Marine's save.

Also, another reason to take Daemons, is that you say you only need 10 - 20 horrors, which means you have most of the models already, and that is always nice on the old wallet.

I have almost everything for all of the armies that I listed.

For example:
I won the 'Ardboys regional tournament for S. California, and got a free Witchhunters army. I ordered 4 Immoliator sprues and a lot of bits for the inqusitors before the bitz service closed. The only thing I need is 3 Exorcists.

The IG army I have my left over Mech IG army from our Adepticon team tournament, my old LatD army, and I bought some forge world renegades at this last Adepticon.

For the demon army I was a long time Thousand Sons player, as well as playing Tzeentch for my Chaos Fantasy army. So I have about 30 Horrors, 12 Flamers, 10 Screamers, 2 LoC, 2 Demon Princes, 3 Lords on Disks and the Limited Edition Tzeentch Lord on Disk that was sold in Italy and Germany. If I do demons, that Limited Edition Lord will make a good herald. The only thing I need for the army is about 20 Horrors and 2-3 Soulgrinders.

The problem with exorcists is that they're a point failure source. They're so good that they're immediate targets, although I think 5ed will actually increase they're survivability (with appropriate cover).

Aside from that, Mech Sisters will, I think, suit your playing style. The trick with sisters is really learning how to use faith.

Daemons intrigue me, I'll admit. You really want to talk to Janthkin about how he made the Lustwing work.

Blackmoor wrote:The only thing I need for the army is about 20 Horrors and 2-3 Soulgrinders.

My new favorite unit are tzeentch demon princes with master of sorcery bolt of tzeentch and gaze of chaos.

Much more survivable than a soulgrinder from long range, and better anti-tank/skimmer. When there are no tanks around you have four BS5 ap3 shots with a 24" range.

Much preferred to the soulgrinders in my book, and you already have the models.

demons!

everything 1-4 is good.

I doubt you will be able to take quad librarians in the new Space Marine book.

Great...people like the 2 metal armies. My fingers start to hurt just thinking about converting them.

Well, I'm the John Steele that got 70 Battle Points with WitchHunters, and I think they're going to be a very strong army in 5th edition.

Last year was my very first GT, and I wasn't prepared for it. As a result, I scored about 5-10 Battle Points less than I should have with my army, scored 5-10 less painting points that I could have with more time to prepare, and lost somewhere between 1-10 sportsmanship points on one game because of a boneheaded judge (said that pulling models in an assault as casualties so that other models with lower initiative couldn't strike was "legal but not the sportsmanlike thing to do" ... duh).

Not bemoaning my placement at all, I had a good time. Just that with more preparation and a better idea of what is going to happen, that the army can be done quite well.

Then you did a very good job. You score really stood out head-and-shoulders above the others.

I am wondering what your list was like. Can you post it somehwere?

It sounds to me like you are interested in Witchhunters from a rules perspective, rather than a theme perspective.

I am not sure what you are getting at, but as far as themes go, army #1 interests me the most. It seems like it would be a lot of fun modeling, painting, and creating. The downside is that IG struggles on the tabletop.

This is for the GT though, so once you do get past the theme, you do need to have a good, viable army that is capable of getting lots of battle points. Theme is not very important to winning a GT, Battle Points are everything with a decent paint job.

I asked St. John for his list out of curiosity. I already have an army list made up for each of the armies I have listed that suits my play style.

There are a lot of factors that draw me to an army.

An interesting theme is one of them.

Another is rarity. I do not want to play an army that everyone else is playing.

And another is difficulty. I do not want to play an army that it is easy to win with. I played Godzilla nids when the Tyranids codex first came out, dropped them when they are not a challenge to win with. I only meant to play Eldar at the LVGT, and this was just after the codex was released. I tried to do builds that no one else was trying (my first try at an Eldar army was to do 9 Vypers and 9 War Walkers, but I end up with an infantry horde).

I'd just like to point out that while it is technically a no comp tournament, you will essentially be docked points if you take a list more fitting of an 'ard boys tournament. I will be attending vegas with a very fluffy and interesting salamanders list and I hope that people don't see the GT as just another chance to powergame, it's so boring.

http://gt.us.games-workshop.com/2008/gt_promo/scoring_sports.htm

as far as the original question goes, I said pre heresy thousand sons because the opportunities for awesome conversion, painting and fluff are many and I think if you could pull it off you would do very well in player's choice.

While RTT's are not really in the same league as a GT, I have won several with my mech SOB army. Also, at Adepticon 2005, my team (Highly Dangerous) placed 15th with SOB...and that was when I was just starting to use them. I wonder how well we could do with them now. If we scored a little more battle points it would definitely helped...LOL. Currently my SOB army is in retirement, but I may take it out of retirement for 5th edition.

Capt K

Just take whatever you feel will beat Stelek's list...

Ozymandias, King of Kings

Blackmoor wrote:Then you did a very good job. You score really stood out head-and-shoulders above the others.

I am wondering what your list was like. Can you post it somehwere?

Thanks.

I took a mech sisters list. I believe it was the following:

Canoness, Jump, Cloak of 2+, BoSL, Frags, BlsdWpn/BP - 122 pts

10 Battle Sisters, Hvy Flamer, Meltagun, VSS w/ BoSL - 209 pts
Rhino - Extra Armour, Smoke Launcher

10 Battle Sisters, Hvy Flamer, Meltagun, VSS w/ BoSL - 209 pts
Rhino - Extra Armour, Smoke Launcher

10 Battle Sisters, 2 Meltagun, VSS - 203 pts
Rhino - Extra Armour, Smoke Launcher, Searchlight

10 Battle Sisters, Hvy Flamer, Flamer, VSS - 200 pts
Rhino - Extra Armour, Smoke Launcher

8 Seraphim, 2x Hand Flamer, VSS w/ Evisc, BoSL - 230

6 Seraphim, 2x Inferno Pistols - 162 pts

Exorcist, Dozer Blade - 140 pts
Exorcist, Dozer Blade - 140 pts
Exorcist - 135 pts

1750 Pts, 7 tanks, 8 Faith

Blackmoor wrote:
Models needed: 2-3 Exorcists
...
Cons: Poor assault. Very dependant on exorcists.

If you are going with the organ-style exorcists, I know from experience that building and painting three exorcists to tournament quality is a substantial time investment, way, way more than 3 ordinary tanks. The metal parts don't always (i.e., never) fit and there are a lot of fine details to paint. However, when they are all fully painted, it really makes your army look tremendous. If you go that route, I can provide guidance about the order of the construction steps so as to make the painting easier.

As for assault, I've found 3 to 6 DCA a way to help with that issue as well as a way to reduce firepower against your rhinos.

At any rate, my vote is for WH!

I played Godzilla nids when the Tyranids codex first came out, dropped them when they are not a challenge to win with.

I did the exact same thing. Same with Eldar skimmer spam. Very little thought process goes into these builds and the tactics get redundant. I would vote sisters as they are getting a good boost with 5th edition. Lots of troops and tanks behind cover are a little more survivable. Now they just need to drop rhino's to 35 points for them like they have done for marines.

I have two words for you: 120 Sisters

Blackmoor wrote:I have two words for you: 120 Sisters

I ran that army a few years back.

Over the course of one games day, I had a whole squad stolen.

120 Sisters was alot more effective in CA2002 but in 5th, that many Sisters is going to be a pita.

Hordes can hammer it though.