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 Mr_Rose wrote:

That said there is an anomaly in the Watch Master entry; the fluff for the Guardian Spear says it's modified to accept special issue ammo, and the model has the four extra mini-mags, but the datasheet doesn't seem to list Special Issue Ammunition anywhere…

I would highly advise you check page 106.

"A model equipped with a guardian spear can fire it as a boltgun equipped with special issue ammunition(pg 105)."

Knew I was missing something, thanks.

Unrelated, can I ask the crowd a question?
Is there any reason not to use Kraken bolts all the time (excepting when you need to ignore cover or whatever)? They're strictly better than the basic bolt shell in two ways, with no drawbacks at all, so why not use them for everything?

 Mr_Rose wrote:
Knew I was missing something, thanks.

Unrelated, can I ask the crowd a question?
Is there any reason not to use Kraken bolts all the time (excepting when you need to ignore cover or whatever)? They're strictly better than the basic bolt shell in two ways, with no drawbacks at all, so why not use them for everything?

Ignore cover can be handy. Can basic bolter use the poisoned 2+ thingie? I would think THAT would be more useful than kraken. AP4 isn't that useful while poisoned 2+ is virtually always at least little bit help.

But yeah compared to regular bolts no reason whatsoever to not use SOME special ammunition.

 Mr_Rose wrote:
Knew I was missing something, thanks.

Unrelated, can I ask the crowd a question?
Is there any reason not to use Kraken bolts all the time (excepting when you need to ignore cover or whatever)? They're strictly better than the basic bolt shell in two ways, with no drawbacks at all, so why not use them for everything?

Vengeance gets ap3 instead of 4, Hellfire wounds on a 2+ constantly and Dragonfire does the cover ignoring.

Kraken is just the long range shot.

It still speaks volumes and disappoints me that so many still are all about the numbers and just can not see how cool this release is.
"You can get more points if you played this army or this counts as"
"Still won't beat Tau"
Blah blah.
So boring.

 Selym wrote:

 Mr_Rose wrote:
Knew I was missing something, thanks.

Unrelated, can I ask the crowd a question?
Is there any reason not to use Kraken bolts all the time (excepting when you need to ignore cover or whatever)? They're strictly better than the basic bolt shell in two ways, with no drawbacks at all, so why not use them for everything?

Vengeance gets ap3 instead of 4, Hellfire wounds on a 2+ constantly and Dragonfire does the cover ignoring.

Kraken is just the long range shot.

kraken is also AP4

 Selym wrote:

 Mr_Rose wrote:
Knew I was missing something, thanks.

Unrelated, can I ask the crowd a question?
Is there any reason not to use Kraken bolts all the time (excepting when you need to ignore cover or whatever)? They're strictly better than the basic bolt shell in two ways, with no drawbacks at all, so why not use them for everything?

Vengeance gets ap3 instead of 4, Hellfire wounds on a 2+ constantly and Dragonfire does the cover ignoring.

Kraken is just the long range shot.

I know what the other types do, I'm just saying that the others really ought to be compared to the Kraken rather than the basic bolt. I can't think of any situation where you'd want to use the standard bolt that you wouldn't also want to use the Kraken.

 Mr_Rose wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

General Hobbs wrote:


I'd still argue the jump pack needs to be listed in their wargear line or they don't have it.

Well what jump pack provides that jump infgntry doesn't? Even if they didn't have jump pack they would be jumping around 12".

Literally nothing. The Jump Pack entry in the armoury says models with them gain the Jump type. {edit} It's not like the Blood Angels situation where the Jump Pack also gives Descent of Angels or anything {/edit}
So, yeah, Deathwatch Vanguard Vets don't have an option to pay for Jump packs because they're already Jump Infantry and paying points to add Jump again would not actually make them able to move 24" a turn.

Same way the Watch Master doesn't have Artificer Armour listed in his wargear; he's already got a 2+ save, what good does making it 2+ again do?

That said there is an anomaly in the Watch Master entry; the fluff for the Guardian Spear says it's modified to accept special issue ammo, and the model has the four extra mini-mags, but the datasheet doesn't seem to list Special Issue Ammunition anywhere…

This is the trend with the SM 7th Ed as well. PA and Scout Armour are removed entirely. As saves are built into profiles, and no model in the codex can take PA or SA as an option, its wasted.

Similarly, no model in C: DW can take PA, Bike or JP as an upgrade, so there's little point in including it. There is in SM as commanders can take JP and Bikes.

 BloodGrin wrote:
It still speaks volumes and disappoints me that so many still are all about the numbers and just can not see how cool this release is.
"You can get more points if you played this army or this counts as"
"Still won't beat Tau"
Blah blah.
So boring.

We are a forum for wargaming - most of us have a heavy focus on playing (and therefore to some extent winnibg). This means that we will heavily discuss the gameplay of each new release. Comparisons are a key component of that.

The DW stuff is cool, but a thread full of posts consisting entirely of "oh this is so good" hardly makes for discussion.

General Hobbs wrote:


I'd still argue the jump pack needs to be listed in their wargear line or they don't have it.

Well, they need something to become jump infantry. It could be a jump pack. But now we also have the option to give them coil springs under the feet or pogo sticks and no one could say anything against it.

A nice bit of synergy in the codex, say mission tactics is set to troops and you fire the AP3 bolts at some tactical marines you get to reroll those gets hot rolls which could be quite dangerous for your guys when in rapid fire range

 BloodGrin wrote:
It still speaks volumes and disappoints me that so many still are all about the numbers and just can not see how cool this release is.
"You can get more points if you played this army or this counts as"
"Still won't beat Tau"
Blah blah.
So boring.

Pff, yeah brah, what total goobers. I mean, who even cares if these game pieces have rules for the game that work? Neeeeeerrrds!

 Mr_Rose wrote:

 Selym wrote:

 Mr_Rose wrote:
Knew I was missing something, thanks.

Unrelated, can I ask the crowd a question?
Is there any reason not to use Kraken bolts all the time (excepting when you need to ignore cover or whatever)? They're strictly better than the basic bolt shell in two ways, with no drawbacks at all, so why not use them for everything?

Vengeance gets ap3 instead of 4, Hellfire wounds on a 2+ constantly and Dragonfire does the cover ignoring.

Kraken is just the long range shot.

I know what the other types do, I'm just saying that the others really ought to be compared to the Kraken rather than the basic bolt. I can't think of any situation where you'd want to use the standard bolt that you wouldn't also want to use the Kraken.

There isn't a reason to ever use standard bolts other than "HA! Your warlord is dead and my squad didn't even have to use special issue ammo!"

 Yodhrin wrote:

 BloodGrin wrote:
It still speaks volumes and disappoints me that so many still are all about the numbers and just can not see how cool this release is.
"You can get more points if you played this army or this counts as"
"Still won't beat Tau"
Blah blah.
So boring.

Pff, yeah brah, what total goobers. I mean, who even cares if these game pieces have rules for the game that work? Neeeeeerrrds!

Soon Age of the Emperor will make the most brazen of scoffers cry.
Age of the Emperor, not the crying, will be a good thing.

Back on topic, I think that Scenario 2 and 3 have some cool one-off rules.
Scenario 2 has a sort of fog bank deal going that, after a certain point, you remove all remaining models from play.
You then take turns placing the models back into play, as if both forces got lost in the soup during the fight.
Scenario 3 has each player taking an entire turn with a unit then turning it over for their opponent to do likewise.
Once all units on both sides have been activated, the round starts again. That's a cool way to integrate unit activations for a single game.

 privateer4hire wrote:

 Yodhrin wrote:

 BloodGrin wrote:
It still speaks volumes and disappoints me that so many still are all about the numbers and just can not see how cool this release is.
"You can get more points if you played this army or this counts as"
"Still won't beat Tau"
Blah blah.
So boring.

Pff, yeah brah, what total goobers. I mean, who even cares if these game pieces have rules for the game that work? Neeeeeerrrds!

Soon Age of the Emperor will make the most brazen of scoffers cry.
Age of the Emperor, not the crying, will be a good thing.

Yeah, I don't get what you're on about man.

You know, this is the one time I think I'll actually go for the GW themed dice. With all the reroll 1s available they are actually well suited for once.

 Yodhrin wrote:

 privateer4hire wrote:

 Yodhrin wrote:

 BloodGrin wrote:
It still speaks volumes and disappoints me that so many still are all about the numbers and just can not see how cool this release is.
"You can get more points if you played this army or this counts as"
"Still won't beat Tau"
Blah blah.
So boring.

Pff, yeah brah, what total goobers. I mean, who even cares if these game pieces have rules for the game that work? Neeeeeerrrds!

Soon Age of the Emperor will make the most brazen of scoffers cry.
Age of the Emperor, not the crying, will be a good thing.

Yeah, I don't get what you're on about man.

He is referring to them AoS'ing 40k.

SeanDrake wrote:

 Yodhrin wrote:

 privateer4hire wrote:

 Yodhrin wrote:

 BloodGrin wrote:
It still speaks volumes and disappoints me that so many still are all about the numbers and just can not see how cool this release is.
"You can get more points if you played this army or this counts as"
"Still won't beat Tau"
Blah blah.
So boring.

Pff, yeah brah, what total goobers. I mean, who even cares if these game pieces have rules for the game that work? Neeeeeerrrds!

Soon Age of the Emperor will make the most brazen of scoffers cry.
Age of the Emperor, not the crying, will be a good thing.

Yeah, I don't get what you're on about man.

He is referring to them AoS'ing 40k.

Yeah, but, whut?

By which I mean, am I the "scoffer" and AoS-ified 40K is going to be good because it will shut up people who actually want a functional game to play, or is BloodGrin the "scoffer" and privateer actually believes an AoS-ified 40K would be a better game system than what we have now?

Remember when this was a discussion about Deathwatch releases...?

This is such a fun release. I just went diving into the great bits mountain and was pulling out RW Black Knight bits, Sanguinary guard sprues, found an untouched SW squad.

Can't wait for this weeks Deathwatch kits to get here so I can get building.

 Eldarain wrote:
This is such a fun release. I just went diving into the great bits mountain and was pulling out RW Black Knight bits, Sanguinary guard sprues, found an untouched SW squad.

Can't wait for this weeks Deathwatch kits to get here so I can get building.

This past week I went plundering the bits box(es) for all the most choice bits, as well. MKIV stuff, Sanguinary Guard, DW Knights, some GK pieces, so on and so forth. I completely agree that this release has been a ton of fun. All those one-off kits I bought just for the bits now have a purpose.

 insaniak wrote:
Remember when this was a discussion about Deathwatch releases...?

But not poor Eldrad?

https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/StormcloudAttack//40k-rules-corvus-blackstar-en.pdf

While a bit low on toughness and speed, it does somewhat make up for it with its arsenal and acceleration / braking. Bit low on the manoeuvres as well.

Re: Using normal bolts

There is literally no point to firing regular bolts as SIA is better in every way


Hellfire: Same range, AP, shots, but with 2+ poisoned
Dragonfire: Same range, AP, shots and Str, but Ignores Cover
Kraken: Better range, better AP (4), same Str, same shots
Vengeance: less range, much better AP(3), same Str, same shots, but Gets Hot.


Now the only one with any drawback there is Vengeance due to range and GH. But with premeasuring permitted, the original downside of it (might not be in range) is not an issue, and with rerolls vs a unit type, GH is migitated.

Here's when to use each

Dragonfire: When unit has 5+ save and a cover save of any sort, and is T4 or below, or its cover is much better than its armour (scouts with Shrouded and Stealth in a ruin for 2+ cover)
Kraken: When unit has a 4+ save, is over the standard range (25+ for Dragonfire for example)
Vengeance: 3+ save units with 18"
Hellfire: For 5+ units out of cover, 3+ units past vengeance round range, for anything with T5+, for anything with a cover or invulnerable save equal or better than its armour (no point shooting Dragonfire at a 4+ save squad with a 4+ cover, or Vengeance at PA with Storm Shield), or basically everything not covered by above. This replaces standard bolts as the default in practise, as outside of unit with a 4+ or better save, or a much superior cover save to its armour, or is past the range for this, its the best.


Standard bolts don't exceed any of that. They don't remove cover saves like Dragonfire, they aren't better at wounding like Hellfire, they have worse range and AP to Kraken. Vengeance is better at killing PA and has worse range, so if you were worried about GH or weren't in range, standard are better option, but like I said, Hellfire is better at wounding for no drawback.

 Mantle wrote:
A nice bit of synergy in the codex, say mission tactics is set to troops and you fire the AP3 bolts at some tactical marines you get to reroll those gets hot rolls which could be quite dangerous for your guys when in rapid fire range

Is that stated by GW in the new FAQs?

Pyrosphere wrote:

 Mantle wrote:
A nice bit of synergy in the codex, say mission tactics is set to troops and you fire the AP3 bolts at some tactical marines you get to reroll those gets hot rolls which could be quite dangerous for your guys when in rapid fire range

Is that stated by GW in the new FAQs?

Does it need to be? This has always been the rule.

Hellfire are actually better vs everything that isn't T2 vs normal bolts, better vs kraken bolts within 24" and isn't a 4+ in 4+ cover. Vengeance is the the same as kraken except its better for 3+ and 4+. and better vs dragonfire if they aren't a 5+ in cover.

Overall, hellfire is the best all around bolt type, with everything else being niche use mostly.

edit: assuming normal boltgun, not the stalker.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

Pyrosphere wrote:

 Mantle wrote:
A nice bit of synergy in the codex, say mission tactics is set to troops and you fire the AP3 bolts at some tactical marines you get to reroll those gets hot rolls which could be quite dangerous for your guys when in rapid fire range

Is that stated by GW in the new FAQs?

Does it need to be? This has always been the rule.

Well gets hot, leman russ executioner, preferred enemy was also legal as per rulebook. FAQ altered that. Guess he's bit vary of repeat of that.

 Bi'ios wrote:

 Eldarain wrote:
This is such a fun release. I just went diving into the great bits mountain and was pulling out RW Black Knight bits, Sanguinary guard sprues, found an untouched SW squad.

Can't wait for this weeks Deathwatch kits to get here so I can get building.

This past week I went plundering the bits box(es) for all the most choice bits, as well. MKIV stuff, Sanguinary Guard, DW Knights, some GK pieces, so on and so forth. I completely agree that this release has been a ton of fun. All those one-off kits I bought just for the bits now have a purpose.

Amen to that. I have so much ideas, just not enough time to get them done ... I will make a GK DW even if it makes no sense whatsoever