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HQ
1) Broodlord (96)
- Feeder Tendrils, Toxin Sacs, Flesh Hooks, Extended Carapace
- 8x Genestealers: Acid Maw (160)

ELITE
1) Carnifex (113)
- 2x Scything Talons, Adrenal Glands (WS), Toxic Miasma

TROOPS
1) 10x Genestealers- Acid Maw (200)
2) 10x Genestealers- Acid Maw (200)
3) 10x Genestealers- Acid Maw (200)
4) 10x Genestealers- Acid Maw (200)

HEAVY SUPPORT
1) Carnifex (148)
- 2x Barbed Strangler, Enhanced Senses, Reinforced Chitin
2) 3x Zoanthropes (180)
- Warp Blast, Catalyst

Just at a glance, elite Carnifex have to be under 115 points, not up to 115. Overall you'd get more successful wounds from the devourers than you would deathspitter spam anyways.

Looking further, you are really lacking focus and tactical advantage with this list. Who are your removal squads? The Broodlord and friends? That's only one team. Termagaunts aren't threatening to anyone, they just have a halfway decent gun for being so cheap. Hormagaunts... we'll get to that in a second. A single Sniperfex, a tooled out CC fex, and three expensive single-shot blasters. I count three, maybe four scary things that need to be shot or just walked away from. Not a fan. This is all just my opinion, but going to go down your list a bit.

Broodlord, nice. I like him, he's fun. He's not invincible, though, and is very subject to being shot, so don't infiltrate him into silly places very far from support. For him, you might want to add the Feeder Tendrils you gave your Retinue. It has the same effect, but cheaper. Flesh Hooks are great for him, so keep them. The only thing I'm unsure about with the Hooks is if it gives the entire unit the Frag Grenade quality, or just him. Nothing I can't look around FAQs or rulebooks for. For his retinue, I would personally remove the carapace and replace it with Acid Maw. As plentiful as the 4+ cover saves are in 5th edition, you are better off learning to use the cover available to your advantage and spending points on things you can't make better as a player: combat effectiveness. I did a little math hammer showing that the points spent on Acid Maw outweigh the other biomorphs of similar price, seen here and scroll down a bit 'til you see the rolling die gifs.

16 Hormagaunts really aren't going to accomplish much (assuming you aren't assaulting a low-man pack of Pathfinders), especially since everyone can counter-charge now. If you're lucky there will be a couple left for the enemy to kill on their turn, but they won't last beyond that. For 192 points you could get 11 Tendril Genestealers who will accomplish much, much more.

You really don't need Without Number on all squads of Gaunts. It's very nice for being a permanent contestant/claimer for objectives near/in your deployment zone, but out in the middle of the field they'll just keep having to run back to center, which translates to points that are running up the field instead of killing the opponent. I personally don't take without number, I just put the model count to 12 and give them a 2+ cover save during times sooner than the end of the game. This is especially easy with Zoanthropes there as mobile Synapse. Just keep the Zoeys just beyond the 12" mark for Synapse, make the Gaunts Lurk and Go to Ground while being shot at. You can also use this method to keep gaunts safe during the earlier parts of the game, keep them lurking and to the ground, but keep a Zoanthrope or other Synapse near an objective, then as the game progresses use their 2d6+d6 movement towards nearest Synapse creature to slingshot them onto an objective. For this tactic, again, I don't bother with Without Number since nobody ever shoots at Gaunts with a 2+ cover save. I also make them Spinegaunts, but that's just because nothing is ever within 12" of them that isn't about to drop a flamer on their turn anyways. Even still, people would rather point those flamers at more dire objects. Last thing about Without Number, if you ever get into a kill point game (one of every three games) your opponent will merely blast away at the regenerating points, racking up more points than his army has available for you to kill.

You also have too many squads of Gaunts. I'm assuming you are going to change out the Hormies for Stealers, but four squdas of 8 Fleshborers won't do much outside of sitting on objectives either. I run with two to keep objectives nearest to me, or one on an objective and the other using the slingshot method described earlier. The nice thing about Genestealers is that they both count as scoring and are excellent troop removal devices. Your opponent thinks his 10-man squad of Marines will hold a distant objective? They're quite wrong. Once you remove all traces of opposition from your objectives, you can safely move your Gaunts forward to sit and claim, or if it's near the end of the game the Stealers can hang out as a very lethal threat for a turn or two. I wouldn't recommend camping for more than two turns with the Stealers, since 17pts a model is much better spent eradicating other people.

Reinforced Chitin on your Sniperfex is your call, I personally don't use it since I have other targets that are much more threatening than a single 3+ covered fex dropping AP5 blast templates that scatter and misses 50% of its AP4 cannon shots. That means your sniperfex is a combination of not absolutely horrifying (like your Broodlord and CC Fex), and is a pain in the arse to kill. 3+ Cover Save at T6 that is putting out a halfway decent rate of fire at 36", but overall isn't all that scary? Not worth the firepower compared to other targets, making the Chitin not worth the points.

This is just my opinion through practice, but Warp Blast has very rarely been worth its points to me. I use two Zoanthropes in my balanced, non-beardy fun list (you can read it here if you'd like), but only as mobile Synapse. Although, really, 60 points isn't too hard to come up with if you really want them, and if they do manage to kill something juicy that more than pays for all three to get the upgrade.

I see you like your crusherfex, so I won't try to talk you out of him. I'm personally trying to run a ninjafex, since I think I can get better point efficiency out of a 113 CC Fex than a heavily tooled one. I do have a couple questions about yours, though. I'm assuming the Initiative bonus is to swing before power fists? I question this, because even on a full charge you won't get through the entire unit to kill the power fist sergeant or nob, so he still gets to swing at you. I guess this becomes slightly more valid in turns after the charge, but you might want to try running a small squad of Genestealers with him as rendy, WS6 I6 support. This tactic puts people in a painful dilemma, take out a couple Genestealers and leave the monster carnifex to slaughter them, or ignore the Stealers and maybe scratch the fex? Either way, I feel the Initiative biomorph is better used as points spent elsewhere. The same goes for your Flesh Hooks. 99.8% of the time, your Crusherfex will be swinging long after anything you assault does, whether it is in cover or not. Did you give him the Hooks just because you had a point left over? Last (I promise) thing I wonder about this Fex is the mace tail. This one I'd leave to personal preference, since there's never anything wrong with an extra hit at full strength for so cheap. However, for just a few more points you get d3 attacks, though at half strength. Since you took Toxin Sacs, though, those 1-3 are still S5, wounding on 2-3 and tearing through armor since it's still a Monstrous Creature attack. More attacks get you out of a tarpit much quicker.
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Too long, didn't read version:

Putting the Tendrils from the Genestealer Retinue onto the Broodlord is cheaper and does the same job, Acid Maw is always better than Extended Carapace. You can be more effective in cover use and movement, your models can't be more effective in combat without upgrades and Acid Maw is a great one thanks to Rending on wounds.

You have an illegal Elite Carnifex, and another Dakkafex would serve you better anyways.

Too many gaunts, I'd personally drop both Without Number and two squads of gaunts, using them solely as objective holders. Without Number still isn't bad when used appropriately, so your call entirely on that one, I just don't like it for its points.

Hormagaunts are bad, mmkay?

Replace the Hormas and extra Gaunt squads with two squads of Tendril Stealers, you need objective takers, not just claimers.

Reinforced Chitin isn't necessary on the SniperFex, nobody will be shooting at it, and if they do four wounds is plenty with 3+ cover and T6.

I'd drop just a couple upgrades on your Crusherfex and move the points to a Scythe Tail rather than a Mace Tail for more attacks.
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While having a Crusherfex is indeed awesome, he really won't be too much more effective at his job than an Elite Ninjafex, except he costs 80 points more. I know you've always wanted to build and field one, and I hope he works well for you. However, you might want to consider building the crusher as you like and just fielding him as a ninjafex with your friends, freeing up points and another Heavy slot.

As I mentioned earlier, this list feels very unfocused, partially due to your troop choice. You have two assault units, both are high priority and will be either fire magnets or just walked away from. The problem with them being fire magnets is that you don't have anything that would then take advantage of not being shot: things like Genestealers, Flyrant, Lictors, fragile but deadly units. The other issue is them being simply walked away from. Your Broodlord can't fleet, meaning that if he is not within assault range after his movement phase, his retinue can't fleet and assault without him. The whole unit is just stuck. The Carnifex can't fleet, either. He can scare people out of their heavy weapons hiding spots if he gets close enough, but he's mostly just a big fire magnet that people will walk/run/fly/drive away from. He's no better a tank killer than a much cheaper variation of him, so that argument is out.

Edit: One of these days I will stop responding to people with walls of text.

Do we think hormies are still bad in 5th?

Thanks for the reply Kirbinator, don't think I've ever had someone examine an army list that in depth before

Will chew for a while.

fitzeh wrote:Do we think hormies are still bad in 5th?

I didn't see anything that changed in 5th that would make Hormagaunts better for their cost. Emphasis on for their cost. Ten base, with each valuable upgrade sending their cost closer and closer to Genestealer level? No thanks. I'll take a couple less Stealers for the same price.

15 Hormagaunts, 150 points, fighting 10 Marines to keep point cost even and because that's the only size Marine squad you'll ever see from now on. For simplicity's sake, I kept everyone in the Marine squad as CCW+Pistol as the vanilla Marine will soon be. If you have doubts of that upcoming change, look at Chaos Marines.

45 attacks on the charge, 22.5 hit, 7.5 wound, 2-3 dead Marines. Since you're both I4, they'll get 20 attacks back because a standard marine will have 1+1 base attacks. 10 hit, 6.6 wound, 4.4 dead Gaunts. So you've successfully killed two Marines and lost five.

Round two, 10-11 Hormagaunts vs. 8 Marines, need I go on?

Now let's look at Tendril Stealers-

9 Tendril Stealers assaulting 10 Marines:

27 attacks on the charge, 22.5 hits (after re-roll), 11.25 wounds, 3.75 of those rend: 6.25 dead Marines, at I6. This leaves 3.75 Marines left to swing back, and you annihilate them during their next assault phase.

For math's sake, those 3.75 Marines get 7.5 swings back, 3.75 hit, 1.87 wound, 1.2 Stealers die.

Yes, Fitzeh, Hormagaunts are still bad.

Edit: Mathhammered a bit inaccurately in a couple places, fixed that, and I thought everyone got counter-charge, not just Templars and Wolves.

Question answered - thanks !!

Changes:
- Switched 'Godfex' to cheaper Elite Carnifex
- Switched Hormagaunts to two broods of Genestealers
- Switched both Elite Carnifexes to Devourers (edit)

Keeping:
- Termagaunts since I already have them (yes, my friend happened to have random gaunts lying around).
- 'Without Number', I expect my termagaunts to die anyways, since they score to the last man, so they might as well come back.

I noticed a lack of Broodlord and Retinue retooling. Give your setup a game or two, then give the Broodlord Tendrils and his Retinue Acid Maw, see which works better for you. If your variation does, stick to it. Mathhammer and my experience, tendril+maw is significantly better.

You really shouldn't bother with Extended Carapace. With 4+ cover saves being plentiful from screening with your immortal gaunts and terrain placement, there's no reason to take it. They kill off most/all opposition in close-combat before they get hit back anyways. Furthermore, dropping just Extended Carapace lets you buy almost another two Stealers per squad. Four more wounds, 12 more attacks on the charge. Much better than armor to replace cover saves you'd be getting anyways.

Three without number squads is a bit much, but your personal tastes here. I run with four troop choices and haven't had any issues yet. I also don't use my gaunts for screening most of the time, and keep them safe in extreme cover until the time is right.

Let's check out point comparisons for a moment. Your setup vs. suggested tweaks for point's sake.

Broodlord-
-Flesh Hooks and Toxin Sacs
Retinue: 8x Stealers - Carapace and tendrils.
Total: 251

Broodlord
-Hooks, Sacs, Tendrils.
8x Stealer Retinue - Acid Maw
Total: 246.

For a few points less you get a much more effective squad, read the math hammer in that first link I gave you earlier if you want to see the numbers.

Your elites look fine, I hope you get some use out of that ninjafex. I run with one in my list, but the only thing I've had him succeed in doing is take on a Venerable Dreadnought, which he almost lost. There again, he does scare the crap out of people.

One thing you could consider doing is dropping a Dakkafex and a squad of gaunts to trade them in on a beefy Tyrant or Flyrant. Just throwing it out as an option to consider. 113 points is dirt cheap for what a Dakkafex can do for softening up your assault teams' targets, and you get to keep a scoring unit. This would also let you drop a Zoanthrope, since four synapse is enough for this army. This is even more available points for another HQ. More on this later.

Again, extended carapace was relatively optional in 4th and just downright unnecessary in 5th, especially since it gives you a reason to keep immortal Gaunts. Heck, if you keep all of your Gaunts advancing in waves, even when they get wiped back to table edge you have another crew right behind them. 64 points goes a long way to more Stealers. Quantity over quality when looking at Stealer upgrades. Also keep in mind heavy flamers are AP4 anyways, as are many other template weapons. Since you can't take both Tendrils and Acid Maw, you're better off taking Tendrils since they're much cheaper and more effective when used alone.

Let's look at your potential point alternatives. Remove Extended carapace from the Troop Genestealers, 64 points saved. Remove a Zoanthrope, because you don't need five Synapse and looking to give you another HQ, another 65 points saved. Remove a squad of Termagaunts, 72 points. You're keeping the killing power of your Genestealers right where it is, you just have to be slightly more careful about how you maneuver them. Use the immortal gaunt screens! You don't need a fifth Synapse, and a Tyrant will kill much more than a single Warp Blast will. Removal of the third gaunt squad is up to you, but two immortal squads really is enough. You're looking at 201 points. For mobile support fire, there's nothing better in the codex than a flying dakka tyrant who comes in at 196 points. Wings, Toxin Sacs, Enhanced Senses, Warp Field, dual Twin-linked Devourers. That's 12 twin-linked, re-roll wounds S5 shots per round, with 12" mobility. Look at what you're losing: one warp blast per turn, one scoring unit (you still have four more) that gives up kill points like they're candy, and the ability to not get quite as penalized by bolters for leaving your genestealers out of cover/screen. Or if you prefer, this could be a walking Tyrant, tooled out as you see fit. 201 points goes a long way for a Tyrant, much longer than giving yourself things you don't need.

Edit: Notice that in the second point removal scenario, you get to keep your second dakkafex right where it is in your list.
Edit edit: You still don't need Reinforced Chitin on your sniperfex. Spend points elsewhere. If you don't know where, buy a genestealer, since an extra body for that squad will go much further than another wound on your 3+ cover save fex.

Cover saves don't help me in combat though.

Another thing influencing this list is that I haven't bought many of the things yet, so I'm trying to keep my purchases as efficient as possible.

Again, a lot to think over, thanks!

In my spirit of 'efficient model buying', I completely over looked the new Tyranid Assault Brood.
This new list keeps the spirit of what I was going for, a semi-balanced Nid list, plenty of small bugs to be shot to pieces, and a few carnifexes running towards my opponent.

You really won't need the 4+ save in combat. Anything they assault will have its numbers dwindled by a large margine (unless you're assaulting 30-strong orks). With likely so few models fighting back against you, combined with your WS6 making basically anyone hit on 4+/5+, the difference between a 4+ combat save and a 5+ combat save becomes pretty negligible, especially for how expensive it makes each Genestealer. The extra bodies will always give you more return for the points than +1 armor save.

Look again at the 9 Genestealers vs. 10 Marines:

Kirbinator wrote:9 Tendril Stealers assaulting 10 Marines:

27 attacks on the charge, 22.5 hits (after re-roll), 11.25 wounds, 3.75 of those rend: 6.25 dead Marines, at I6. This leaves 3.75 Marines left to swing back, and you annihilate them during their next assault phase.

For math's sake, those 3.75 Marines get 7.5 swings back, 3.75 hit, 1.87 wound, 1.2 Stealers die.

Change that to a 4+ save, rather than 5+ on the 1.87 wounds dealt to the Genestealers and you get .985 dead instead of 1.2. In both cases, one dead Genestealer. The real difference comes in at the point cost for the Genestealer unit. With just 9 Tendril Stealers: 153. 9 Tendril+Carapace: 189. You could put the points saved into two more Genestealers per squad which would push their kill-rate and subsequent combat survivability even higher.

Looking at that same Stealer vs. Marine situation... now 11 Tendril Stealers vs. 10 Marines.

33 attacks on the charge, 29.34 hit (after re-rolls), 14.67 wounds, 4.89 of those rend, meaning 8.15 dead Marines. Those 1.85 Marines still left get 3.7 attacks back, 1.85 hit, .925 wound, .3 dead Genestealers. Keep in mind you now have two more wounds than you did before, since you bought two more Genestealers instead of Extended Carapace, along with the extra 6 rending attacks that re-roll misses.

I'm sorry, but unless you really enjoy putting your Genestealers out in front of bolter fire without cover nor screens, there is never, ever a reason to go with Extended Carapace instead of buying more bodies. Against anything that is AP4 or better (Heavy Bolter/Flamer) the Carapace just made every dead one that much more expensive and your squad even smaller, thus easier to wipe out.

You might want to look into the Tyranid Assault Brood: 32 Gaunts, 16 Genestealers, 6 Warriors, 3 Carnifex. If you know somebody who likes Warriors, you might be able to pawn those off on them or just keep them for yourself if you happen to like them. Buy two of these and your bases should be pretty much covered. You can generally get pretty good discounts looking around the web or your local hobby shops.

That would be a scary looking army to sit across from o_0

If I were to fight this army I would:

i) almost certainly try to flank the gaunt line and gun down the genestealers and/or warriors asap

ii) keep the CC fex's out of combat as long as possible.

Also, genestealers can only have one "head" biomorph the last time I checked... can't take tendrils and acid maw together.
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Okay, two questions:

What is your intended role for the venom cannon warriors?

Why CC Fex's? And why so many?

Ah balls, you're right about the genestealers...if only...

- Warriors are really there because they come in the Assault Brood, mobile synapse, all that fun stuff. I geared them for shooty, because upon examining the kit, I don't have enough bits to model them to be assaulty, and they'll be more last-minute fire-support for my running assault line.

-CC Carnifexes? Because of the look on my opponent's face

Termagaunts? Hormagaunts? Warriors? Low Genestealer counts? Full out Ninjafexes as Heavy Support units? I'm sorry, but your list went sour when you confined yourself to the models only available in that particular box set. Even further, the 32 Gaunts available are 16 shooty and 16 hormagaunts. You can put shooty bits on a homragaunt body, though, for very agressive looking shooters, or vice-versa for very laid back hormagaunts. Hormagaunts are bad, though. See my point synopsis for them earlier in this post.

Warriors are used as supporting mobile Synapse in either small-number games or large-number games. At 1500 points, both a Tyrant and a Broodlord are better HQ choices by far. A Warrior is basically a very expensive Marine with an extra wound and 5+ armor. They have the same BS as a Carnifex: Bad. Same armor as a Genestealer: Bad. 210 points for six units that won't accomplish much? Bad.

What happened to the Broodlord? Why are there Hormagaunts? Why Fleshborers instead of Spinefists? It's a barely better gun (only against T4+) that you will either never fire, or only fire once, at the added cost of 32 points in your list.

Why are your Heavy Support Carnifex all CC-oriented? A halfway intelligent opponent won't be afraid of them, he'll wonder why you sunk so many points into things he can just walk away from and fire at as he does so. The only real firepower you have here is the dakkafex, and he won't be doing too much on his own.

For the acid maw vs. tendrils, in effect they are practically equal against T4 opponents when comparing Maw stealers vs. Tendril stealers. 200 points buys you 10 Maw Stealers, 204 buys 12 Tendrils. Both will kill about the same number of Marines per turn, except the Tendril Stealers have two more wounds to absorb. Against T5-7, Acid Maw is better, so if you fight a lot of Plague Marines you might consider it instead of the tendrils.

I'm assuming you're going to be playing at your local, friendly hobby shop, not a tournament. You can proxy a Stabby Warrior if you don't want to buy a Broodlord.

I'm sorry, this new list is bad.

Back to the drawing board *sigh*

Major Rehaul:
- Going with a stealer shock list now because I just don't want to have to deal with Synapse. Warriors are fragile, and if they're shooting, they're probably not keeping up with gaunts. Tyrants need guards, so that's more points into a unit that I want to spend elsewhere.
- In total I have 40 genestealers in. Is that enough or should I take out a Carnifex? Which one?
- Carnifexes and Genestealers...scary combo

Edit: Dropped the dakkafex for more genestealers. 48 and counting.

Muuuch better.

Personally, I'd give your stealers tendrils instead (don't forget that they effect friendly squads within 2"). And unless you are bent on making a mostly assault army, I would go ahead and swap the CC fex's with dakkafex's.

Personally, I don't think pure-CC fex's are half as bad as Kirbinator lets on simply because they can run in 5th and hit rear armor. That said, I think the dakkafex is still a better choice.

Oh yeah, and if you want a nice compromise, you could take elite fex's with a TL devourerx1, talonsx1, mace tail, and +WS.

Ninjafexes are great tank killers, don't get me wrong. One good tank down the drain and he's more than paid for himself. How many tank companies do you fight, though? Even the IG around here don't bring so many that you won't be able to handle it with your other troops. Against troops, CC Carnifexes are generally pretty bad. When you run, that means you can't assault. It does get you there d6 per turn quicker, but it's not so much of a boon as it looks on paper. Five swings on the charge at WS4, I1 isn't as amazing as I wish it were. I bring one as my tank hunter, but a Dakkafex will always be better for the troop-heavy lists people bring in 5th. Having three of them running into the front lines makes them fire magnets, a very expensive distraction that forces your opponent to shoot or get squished. If you can use that to your advantage with the rest of your army, then that's fine. With that list, though, you could not.

This stealer-shock list is much scarier, since there are just so many Genestealers running about people don't know what to do. You will still need to be careful with them, though. It's better to stay an extra round in the safety of cover or behind a Monstrous Creature than it is to jump out and possibly fail a needed fleet roll to assault.

I'd go with the Dakkafex in this list rather than the Ninja. Don't you have enough assault units?

Seeing as I've already built the Ninjafex without magnets... ...there's not much I can do...oh well, I don't mind the the look on my opponent's face when he sees 40 genestealers running into combat with a Carnifex in the background

And I'd be insane to think about replacing a Dakkafex with 3 Warpblasting Zoanthropes right?

I'd probably say so, yes. If you wanted, though, you could run the three Zoanthrope as Psychic Screamers along with the Warp Blast for -3 to opponent's leadership checks. However, given that whoever loses combat gets a -1Ld for every wound lost by, this doesn't always help out a whole lot. Warp Blast could give you better ranged AV14 cracking ability, though, in case your ninjafex bites the dust.

That's what I'm thinking, because a Venom Canon only glances anyways, Warp Blasts give me a chance to actually knock out a vehicle...

If I changed my one Dakkafex to Dual barbed stranglers, and put in three Zoanthropes with Warp Blasts and Catalysts...(for when my genestealers assault things in cover).

Edit: What do you think? It'll definitely raise a few eyebrows.

I'd keep the Dakkafex over dual Strangler. With the blast template landing directly on a group, you'll likely deal just as many wounds as a Dakkafex to them. However, against other Monstrous Creatures you're only dealing a single wound, where a Dakkafex can deal multiples. You likely don't need more anti-tank if you have three blasting Zoeys on hand.

Not a bad idea with the Catalyst for the Genestealers, but if your Zoanthrope are keeping up with them that means they aren't Blasting things.

Catalyst has a 24" range so I'm not too worried about my Zoeys keeping up with my Stealers.

Being a Tau player, I know how unreliable BS3 is...I'd prefer if my Carnifex just auto-hit everything it shot at instead of missing half its VC shots...but will keep thinking.

Again, thanks for the help Kirbinator

Good luck and have fun with your list, just be wary of those Sisters of Battle and their Blessed Ammo they'd be slowed not to take against you.