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Per Iorek's suggestion, I'll start the ball rolling with an new thread on how Codex: Inquisition *really* ought to be.

Following aka_mythos example, in this thread:
- we only discuss Inquisition at a high level
- we do NOT expand Grey Knights or Deathwatch beyond their Elite entries
- we assume Sisters of Battle to have a full, proper standalone Codex of their own
These are "the facts". If you don't like them, please go to "the other thread".

So...


Similar to how C: CSM has strong focus on the Chaos Marines, Codex: Inquisition should focus on the Inquisitors and their personal resources. Anything else (i.e. Chambers Militant and Inducted forces) should be secondary, and may be handled more akin to generic Lesser Daemons.

That necessarily means that Sisters of Battle would need a stand-alone Codex again, in much the same way that Chaos Daemons now have their own book. It also means that Grey Knights and Deathwatch become much smaller, and don't get fleshed out much further in this book, but similarly implies that Grey Knights would get their own book later. IMO, this is no great loss, as neither Grey Knights nor Deathwatch have been handled very well to date. Yes, the GK got PA versions, which then doubled as FA and HA, but that's all pretty weaksauce for an upgrade, which is why C: DH is a real disaster. It would be much better if GW were to take the time to make a full Codex: Grey Knights, and do it properly.

Thus,

== Codex: Inquisition ==

HQ
Inquisitor w/ 3..9 Retinue
+ Retinue: Stormtrooper/ Servitor, Gun-Servitor, Combat Servitor, Crusader, Daemonhost, Sage/Mystic, Familiar
- Rhino, Chimera, or Land Raider

non-FOC HQ
Grey Knights Captain - units of 10 GK Marines may be taken as non-FOC Troops
- Deep Strike

Deathwatch Librarian - units of 10 DW may be taken as non-FOC Troops

Elite
0-1 Imperial Assassin
- generic (PW & Inferno Pistol) or Temple: Eversor, Vindicare, Callidus, Culexus
- Infiltrate

Death Cult Assassins (1-3)
- Infiltrate

Ogryns (3..10)
+ Chimera

Grey Knights Terminators (Sgt w/ 2..4 Terminators)
- Deep Strike

Grey Knights Marines (Sgt w/ 4..9 Marines)
- Deep Strike

Deathwatch Kill Team (Sgt w/ 4..9 Veterans)
- Rhino or Razorback

Troops
Inquisitional Stormtroopers (5..10)
- Rhino or Razorback

Arco-Flagellants (5..10) - don't count towards compulsory Troops
- Fleet

non-FOC Troops - choose only 1 type
Inducted Guardsmen (10)
+ Chimera

Sisters of Battle (5 to 10)
+ Immolator or Rhino

Seconded Marines (5 to 10)
- Rhino or Razorback

Transport
Rhino
Razorback


Fast
Sentinels (1..3)
- Infiltrate

Battle Engines / Penitient Engines (1..3)
- Fleet

Heavy
Orbital Strike

Gun Servitors (5..10)

Imperial Robots (1..3)
- Slow & Purposeful

Land Raider (Crusader or Redeemer)

This is ~25 units including Retinue and Transports, so there's room to properly detail Inquisitors, each of the Ordos, and the Retinue. Ultimately, every Inquisition force will be led by at least 1 Inquisitor commanding at least 2 units of Stormtroopers. So "Inquisition" would actually be descriptive of whatever force the player takes.

The basic list is fairly minimal, with plenty of opportunity for conversion and "counts as". I've tried to provide close-combat alternatives alongside typical shooting, to allow for a fighty army. Elites are strongly competitive among themselves with lots of options for the player to choose from. I make strong use of the generic Daemon concept pioneered by the current Chaos book to bulk out the HQ and Troops selections, but break it out with a bit more diferentiation. And finally, I bring back one of my favorites from the RT era: Robots - I see these as BS3 AV12/11/10 with 1..2 Heavies and 1..2 DNCCWs.

For Ordo options, I'd have Malleus, Hereticus, Xenos, and Sicarus, with a few Radical options:
- a minor stat / rule bonus (WS, I, etc.),
- access to an Ordo-specific Psychic power,
- access to an Ordo-specific weapon,
- access to an Ordo-specific Retinue option.
For example, Malleus would have access to Thunderhammer, while Radicals would have access to Daemon weapon and Daemonhosts in their Retinue.

I understand your intent of focusing on the Inquisitor over the chamber militants. It begs the question to what extent is the chamber militant downgraded in your list?

Deathwatch can normally deep strike are you proposing they lose that ability?

All Deathwatch killteams are lead by Captain level characters and not Sgts. are you proposing they lose that?

The next thing is which of the current GK special rules would you keep for the basic GK squads? Which do you find unnecessary?

aka_mythos wrote:I understand your intent of focusing on the Inquisitor over the chamber militants. It begs the question to what extent is the chamber militant downgraded in your list?

Deathwatch can normally deep strike are you proposing they lose that ability?

All Deathwatch killteams are lead by Captain level characters and not Sgts. are you proposing they lose that?

The next thing is which of the current GK special rules would you keep for the basic GK squads? Which do you find unnecessary?

Those are all excellent questions:

The Chambers Militant are downgraded to what a typical Inquisitor might have available on short notice - the occasional squad of Grey Knights / Deathwatch, or a handful of regular Battle Sisters.

If Deathwatch can DS, then that overlaps with the GK DS capability. Therefore, the two are necessarily less distinctive by virtue of the overlap. So I take away DW DS in favor of bog-standard SM Transport which the GK do not use.

Deathwatch teams are going to be led by Veteran Sergeants - embedding Captains breaks the balance, or forces DW to be a HQ choice, rather than an Elite. For parity with the GK, DW are Elite. In lieu of this, there is a DW Librarian available as a non-FOC HQ choice to lead the DW.

GK should probably be streamlined significantly. Granting Without Number is bad.

I realize you have a WIP list...

Do you intend to include further "retinue" options that pertain to specific Ordo, i.e. the heirophant for Ordo Malleus Inquisitor?

Also as a thought to including robots, in the new Codex: SM a Techmarine may take servitors and that those servitors can function without a controller but less reliably... I think D6 roll of 4+ they function without the Techmarine otherwise they only move forward.
Robots in the past have had a similar sort of functionality, do you think Robots might be well served by including similar relationship with an Adeptus Mechanicus Magos?

With fleet of foot for Archo-flagellants do you think they might work better as a fast attack option?

Who honestly wants a Codex where Grey Knights are reduced to a single Elites choice as part of a larger army. Or where the Chamber Militants of the Ordo Malleus and Xenos are sidelined in favour of 'Sisterly Love'.

Pathetic, and an insult to people who actually like playing Grey Knights or who want to see a rich and expanded Inquisition.

I mean, it's a perfect fit for Jervis Edition 40K, but othre than that, it's beyond dull.

Not to mention dull. Did I mention dull?

I go back to my original 'Generic Imperium' Codex, as that seems to be what ol' Jonny boy wants. As little variety of units as possible - side line armies that 'shouldn't (by his reckoning) be armies, except for Sisters ( uber alles!!!), and generally enhancing the... generic feel of the list.


The only thing I don't disagree with is Jonny-boy's notion that Deathwatch shouldn't Deep Strike. I feel that steps on the GK's toes as well.

BYE

I agree with some points - as I said on the other board - how many Inquisitors can REALLY call on and entire army of GKs every time they go to war?

I think they should be made more 'Elitey'. And I don't think Deathwatch should really be expanded beyond their 'special ops/killteam' fluff.

On the other hand, if we say that GW have to release a Codex: Inquisition with minimal GK and SoB choices, followed by a Codex: Sisters of Battle and a Codex: Grey Kinghts, we're gonna be waiting YEARS before people can use their armies.

It'd be worse than the current Dark Eldar/IG situation, since the current DH and WH books would be made obsolete by a new Inquisition book. You'd be waiting til 2012 to bring your GK army to the table again!

aka_mythos wrote:Do you intend to include further "retinue" options that pertain to specific Ordo, i.e. the heirophant for Ordo Malleus Inquisitor?

Also as a thought to including robots, in the new Codex: SM a Techmarine may take servitors and that those servitors can function without a controller but less reliably...
do you think Robots might be well served by including similar relationship with an Adeptus Mechanicus Magos?

With fleet of foot for Archo-flagellants do you think they might work better as a fast attack option?

I think retinue options can (and should) be very broad, with several "common" choices (e.g. Warrior, Crusader) and a handful of unique choices (e.g. Daemonhost). DH / WH were generally good in this regard, as they allow for multiple representations (e.g. psyber-eagle / servo-skull / gyrinx options as Familiar). So an OM Heirophant might be the OM version of something in the same way that a Sister Hospitalier might be the OH version of something.

In general, I think it's good to have the bonuses tied to the Ordo Electoo, rather than the Retinue member, as it makes the Ordo more significant. Having 7-odd flavors of Retinue member with different stats and weapons is enough to keep track of without having a secondary effect on the Inquisitor himself.

I don't think we should be programming Robots like in the old RT days. Doing the flowchart thing would be as bad as bringing out the old targeting grids from the Vehicle Compendium.

I think it would be enough to roll a d6, and on a 1, it shoots at the nearest enemy in LOS. Not totally reliable, but very simple.

I strongly considered Arco-Flagellants as Fast Attack or non-FOC Troops. I think that it would be cool to see a small carpet of 4x 10 Arco-Flagellants rolling foward as the backbone of a fighty Inquisitional force. If they were Fast Attack, then all of the Troops options are inherently shooty (ST, IG, SM, SoB), which limits play style to static shooting or mobile shooting. Having them as Troops that don't count towards minimums keeps the Inquistor & Storms core requirement, while still allowing very large numbers of them to be fielded.

ArbitorIan wrote:how many Inquisitors can REALLY call on and entire army of GKs every time they go to war?

And I don't think Deathwatch should really be expanded beyond their 'special ops/killteam' fluff.

On the other hand, if we say that GW have to release a Codex: Inquisition with minimal GK and SoB choices, followed by a Codex: Sisters of Battle and a Codex: Grey Kinghts, we're gonna be waiting YEARS before people can use their armies.

It'd be worse than the current Dark Eldar/IG situation, since the current DH and WH books would be made obsolete by a new Inquisition book. You'd be waiting til 2012 to bring your GK army to the table again!

If one presumes that the GK are a Chapter with the 1000-Marine limit, and then extrapolates that they're in service across the entire Imperium, then there might be at most 1 or 2 Inquisitors able to assemble a mass of GK. That is why they're simply not available as C: =I= Troops. The PA GK only make things worse if one intends to reconcile the Fluff.

And you have the same issue with (equally rare) Deathwatch in numbers, which is why I make them Elite.

I'd like to see GW do C: =I= and C: SoB properly, first. In many ways, having GK or DW en masse, are probably talking Apocalypse situations so they're better served with an Apocalypse Datasheet.

In many ways, GW and the players are paying the price for GW's unheeded list expansion in 3rd and 4th Editions.

You should still be able to do a separate army of Grey Knights, Sisters and Deathwatch without the need for an Inquisitor (these formations do act on their own - maybe on the orders or someone else, but they can act as fully fledged strike forces).

And the list should allow that. A 'Generic Chamber Militant' Elite choice should never exist as an option.

BYE

Ack! Robots! I say keep the robots to the Ad Mech lists.

I think that most of the other listings look reasonable, although I would give the Deathwatch the opportunity to take Drop Pods. While you could say that it impinges on the GK's teleportation, the DW are known for teleportation as well as drop pods.

Huh. Now there's a thought. I can't say that I condone this approach, or be remotely in favor of it, but you could do something with the GK and DW similar to how WH dealt with Stormtroopers and Arbites. They'd have a common entry with a common statline, but the player needs to decide which Ordo they're from to determine what weapon options they have. And frankly, I think there's little difference in their transport options.

Death By Monkeys wrote:Ack! Robots! I say keep the robots to the Ad Mech lists.

I think that most of the other listings look reasonable, although I would give the Deathwatch the opportunity to take Drop Pods. While you could say that it impinges on the GK's teleportation, the DW are known for teleportation as well as drop pods.

Huh. Now there's a thought. I can't say that I condone this approach, or be remotely in favor of it, but you could do something with the GK and DW similar to how WH dealt with Stormtroopers and Arbites. They'd have a common entry with a common statline, but the player needs to decide which Ordo they're from to determine what weapon options they have. And frankly, I think there's little difference in their transport options.

Um, *what* Ad Mech lists? There aren't any official ones to date. But if you strip the labels off of this list, this list can do a very decent job of serving Ad Mech, and that is deliberate. It's why I choose to resurrect Imperial Robots.

Drop Pods are a good idea for DW - worth an addition.

PA GK and DW could perhaps be merged with little loss. But like Cult Marines, it's more flavorful to keep them separate.

@HMBC: I see that you're poking your head in here. If you're not constructively contributing to thread, based on the list that starts this thread, then either/or:
- you can start your own thread
- you will be reported to the Mods for trolling

JohnHwangDD wrote:Um, *what* Ad Mech lists?

That's my point, really. I feel like Imperial Robots are incongruous with the Inquisition. And yes, while you can make this list into a decent "counts-as" list for Ad Mech, I don't think Legio Cybernetica should be included just so you can do that. All of the other items in the list fit the Inquisition theme, but I just haven't seen any fluff to demonstrate that the Inquisition would use a robot maniple. I feel like if you're going to re-introduce Legio Cybernetica to the playable 40k universe, it should be in a new Ad Mech list, not an Inquisition list. Frankly, it kind of goes against the "streamlined" approach I think you're looking for here. This list should really be a re-collation of existing units and rules with a few modifications to existing units, not bringing something vastly different into a list that hasn't been seen since RT. Don't get me wrong, I thought the flow charts were really cool back in the RT days. (But then, I also thought d100 rolls for weapons were also cool, too.) I think you could totally do robots justice in 5E 40k - just not in this book.

JohnHwangDD wrote:Drop Pods are a good idea for DW - worth an addition.

PA GK and DW could perhaps be merged with little loss. But like Cult Marines, it's more flavorful to keep them separate.

I agree and I wouldn't be in favor of it, but if we're looking for a streamlined approach to the Inquisition codex, I think it's a valid way to do it.

Jonny, I've contributed, you just chose to ignore it.

HAHA! Get it? Ignore? 'Cause I'm on his ignore list. Ah, I kill me...


*ahem*

I've said my piece a few posts up. Reducing DW and GK to a 'Generic Chamber Militant' entry whilst keeping Sisters in full swing is not the way to design an Inquisition Codex, especuially one claiming to be 'pure'. Maybe if all three were genericised, then maybe, but otherwise it just sparks of obvious favouritism (not that we're above that).

And streamlining something doesn't just mean removing options and reducing armies to Elite Choice entries.

BYE

H.B.M.C. wrote:Jonny, I've contributed, you just chose to ignore it.

HAHA! Get it? Ignore? 'Cause I'm on his ignore list. Ah, I kill me...


*ahem*

I've said my piece a few posts up. Reducing DW and GK to a 'Generic Chamber Militant' entry whilst keeping Sisters in full swing is not the way to design an Inquisition Codex, especuially one claiming to be 'pure'. Maybe if all three were genericised, then maybe, but otherwise it just sparks of obvious favouritism (not that we're above that).

Nah, I agree. It's not something that I'd be in favor of. I'm just saying that if we're streamlining as seems to be the intent of the codex design in this thread, then that's a way that makes a lot of sense.

I think then, in that case, he's confused the meaning of 'streamlining' with 'sidelining'.

Streamlining would be removing rules such as "If taken as Fast Attack then they count as X" or "Brother Captain taken as an HQ or as Elite" and so on. You make things singular, so, again, using GKs as an example:

Grand Master + Retinue = HQ
Brother Captain + Retinue = Elite
Grey Knight Squad = Troops
Grey Knight Teleportation Squad = Fast Attack
Grey Knight Purgation Squad = Heavy Support

Bang. That's 5 choices that are solid entries in the Codex, and require a 'Malleus' Inquisitor Lord before you can take any of them.

On top of this you'd put the Land Raiders and Dreads in.

Then, if you want to streamline things for the actual Inquisitors, you have a single Inquisitor Entry, he comes with no weapons, and has four things you can do:

1. Choose weapons and equipment from list A.
2. Choose Malleus, gain their 'quintessential' weapon (ie. a Thunder Hammer), and choose from equipment list A and Malleus list (List B).
3. Choose Hereticus, gain their 'quintessential' weapon (ie. Inferno Pistol), and choose from equipment list A and Hereticus list (List C)
4. Choose Xenos, gain their 'quintessential' weapon (ie. don't know yet! ), and then choose from equipment list A and Xenos List (List D).

Psychic powers. You could have 5 standard powers, and then one specific one for each Orod. Simple. Not 7 powers for each group with some overlap. Similar to the way Chaos does it now - a few standard, plus one special for each specific group.

Henchman... now they're an interesting one. There's a lot of differences between the two published ones, but also a lot of redundancy that doesn't need to be there - so we can streamline it. Again, it could be the same thing - a selection of basic Henchman (Familiar, Servitor, Acolyte, Warrior). All have the same statline, except Servitors, who are BS4 WS4 S4 T4 Sv4+ (they are part machine after all, and wouldn't be much good otherwise).

I'm sure I've forgotten one of the basic ones, but now, like with the psychic powers, you can have one Henchman that's special for each type of Inquisitor, so a Heirophant for Malleus, Penitant Psyker for Hereticus and Ad-Mech Magus (or somethign similar) for Xenos.

That steamlines that quite easily (might actually use that for my Codex... much better than having 8 different statlines...).

Assassins don't need to change insofar as there's nothing wrong with their selection process. The rules themselves need to change so that they are actually useful (right now a Vindicare can be picked out for shooting even if it's at the far back of an army, and that's idiotic), but that has nothing to do with their selection.

Inquisitorial Stormtroopers should come to the fore as the main force for any Inquisitor, and this can include BS4 Sentinels in Fast Attack, an Inquisitorial Stormtrooper HQ choice (so a pure Inquisition army could have 0-1 Inquisitor Lord and then the other HQ could be something Storm Trooper related - a Senior Officer or Inquisitorial Storm Trooper Commissar or something).

And before anyone says that streamline = not adding units, please stop yourself. Streamlining doesn't mean removing options and genericising things (no matter what my main man Double D might want). It means making things easier, quicker, and and more user friendly - removing the bloat from the list and the redundancy is more important than removing options.

BYE

Death By Monkeys wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:Um, *what* Ad Mech lists?

That's my point, really. I feel like Imperial Robots are incongruous with the Inquisition.

JohnHwangDD wrote:Drop Pods are a good idea for DW - worth an addition.

PA GK and DW could perhaps be merged with little loss. But like Cult Marines, it's more flavorful to keep them separate.

I agree and I wouldn't be in favor of it, but if we're looking for a streamlined approach to the Inquisition codex, I think it's a valid way to do it.

On the one hand, there are Gun Servitors, which do a good job of filling the Devastator / Dark Reaper / Obliterator role with something characteristic to the Inquisition. On the other hand, there is Orbital Strike for Artillery. So looking at the gap to fill, I want a Heavy non-Ordnance walker, similar to a Defiler or Dreadnought. To me, the easiest way to do this was to resurrect Imperial Robots from Rogue Trader. I guess, the problem is, if we take Imperial Robots out, what takes their place?

IG Tanks are out of the question, as the Inquisition is BS4. So nick the SM / CSM Predator? And the Vindicator for good measure? I'm not sure that 's better, as there's plenty enough MEQ-ness already folded into the army.

While I am streamlining the army list, I was trying to take the approach of cutting the fat, rather than blending things together. More of a reduction to essential elements. I think I like PA GK and DW as separate entries, as the other fighty vs shooty options are separated, and also because the list still has room for them to be separate entries.

Ah, the Orbital Strike. I forgot about those (because they never get any use).

Should you be able to change its location during the game, but based upon what's within the LOS of your Inquisitor Lord?

BYE

JohnHwangDD wrote:
On the one hand, there are Gun Servitors, which do a good job of filling the Devastator / Dark Reaper / Obliterator role with something characteristic to the Inquisition. On the other hand, there is Orbital Strike for Artillery. So looking at the gap to fill, I want a Heavy non-Ordnance walker, similar to a Defiler or Dreadnought. To me, the easiest way to do this was to resurrect Imperial Robots from Rogue Trader. I guess, the problem is, if we take Imperial Robots out, what takes their place?

I see this as an issue of what Ordo(s) you're running. If you've got DW or GK, then you get a Dreadnought. If you're running SoB, you get Penitent Engines or a modified version thereof. In fact, I wouldn't be adverse to seeing a SoB Dreadnought - I seem to remember there being some pretty cool SoB Dreadnaught conversions back in the late '90s floating around the net. These would get different loadout options depending on the Ordo - such as:
- GK Dreads get the options to take a Psycannon, TL AC, or TL HB as a main weapon, some type of Force DCCW, an Incinerator upgrade instead of the Storm Bolter, and an option to Teleport,
- SoB Dreads would get an Inferno-like flamer, TL MM, or TL HB as main weapons, Holy Promethium and Blessed Ammunition upgrades, and can use acts of Faith, and
- DW Dreads would get TL LC, Plasma Cannon, TL HB, and I don't know - maybe one of the modes from the new Thunderfire Cannon for their main weapons, they get the option of Hellfire Rounds for the HB, and something else.

JohnHwangDD wrote:IG Tanks are out of the question, as the Inquisition is BS4. So nick the SM / CSM Predator? And the Vindicator for good measure? I'm not sure that 's better, as there's plenty enough MEQ-ness already folded into the army.

I wouldn't necessarily say IG Tanks are out of the question - maybe make them Storm Trooper tanks or something. Heck, if the Space Wolves can take a LR Exterminator and pilot it, why can't the Inquisition have BS 4 tank gunners at their disposal? H.B.M.C. makes a good point, though, that it wouldn't be hard to make Orbital Strikes a whole lot more useful and so not have to worry about Ordnance tanks at all.

OK, so why the issue with making an Inquisition Dreadnought-class unit, but calling it a "Robot"?

Then, when GW gets serious about AdMech, they can do like SM Dreads with their Robots and have Venerable, Furioso, Siege, and other variants unique to the AdMech. In this case, the Inquisition only having access to the most basic variant is essentially similar to how the Inqisition would only have access to the basic Sisters, SM, or IG.


I see IG stuff as by exception, tied to Inducted Guard, rather than as standard for Stormtroopers. Besides, if you have Russes with Storms, that's a bit too much like regular Guard. OTOH, Storms with Preds are a little different.

I wouldn't use Space Wolves as strongly definitive, as they're SM, rather than Inquisition. Certainly, from the opponent's POV, it's a lot easier when all Preds are BS4 and all Russes are BS3.

With Orbital Strike, if it's just treated as an Indirect Barrage anywhere on the board, and is penalized by starting in Reserve, I think that's probably OK. GW tying it to a piece of terrain was probably overkill.

So then yeah, Russes and other pie-throwers aren't needed.

This is mostly a reaction to the OP.

From a fluff point of view, I always - well, on days when I'm not ranting about GW business practices - kind of liked the idea of each branch of the Inquisition having their own pet army, be it GK, SoB or Deathwatch, but then I didn't have the cash for all the metal figures when Sisters came out, and for that matter was playing WHFB at the time anyways. Deathwatch IMHO would be an extremely doable Codex, since GW seems to love releasing different rules for different paint schemes of power armour.

The intuitive approach IMHO would be to strip the whole list back to Inquisitors and retinues. Make them troops and have lord level Inquisitors available as elites as well as HQ, like Tyranid Warriors. Stormtroopers suck anyways and there is always the Imperial Guard allied contingent for them if a player owns them, likes the sculpts or thinks they are fluffy. Inquisitors can get BS4 Predators from Space Marines so I'm not sure where the neccessity of making special Inquisitorial Predators would lie. The whole system of black ships and Inquisitorial fortresses I always sort of looked at as a version of the NKVD/Homeland Security: they don't have any heavy equipment because their main concern is nipping things in the bud before they have to call in the Space Marines, notify the PDF, or ask a favour from a Canoness. They don't need heavy equipment (edit - exterminatus aside) just connections, credits and a few extremely loyal and occasionally psychopathic enforcers.

The most important part would be to include a special rule that removes opponent's consent for allies if you are playing Inquisition, so long as you conform to a certain format. So if you're playing with a Puritan Ordo Hereticus, you'd need opponents permission for Psykers of any kind but not for allied Sisters, a Radical Ordo Malleus would require opponents permission for Grey Knights but could always choose Daemonhosts and Cultists, and a Purtian Ordo Xenos would be unable to use any wargear not in an Imperial codex without opponents permission. This would let players in casual settings make armies from whatever odds and sods they had lying around, while potentially forcing a modicum of balance on it in a competitive environment - kind of like the DoW in WHFB. From a marketting point of view it would fill the niche for low commitment players interested in collecting a heterogenous and malleable force that, more than any other faction, embodies the spirit of the fluff.

I'm not saying there's no validity in a sort of Codex of all armies.

Not to go too far OT - but while we're at it, why don't we give the Officio Assassinorum back their own Codex? The Assassin temples are as much an independent organization as the Grey Knights or Sisters of Battle. They could be a kind of fun gimmick army - a lot like the old Schaeffer's Last Chancers. Maybe give'em some kind of special rule where they always get free turns until they are spotted by enemy sentries or something.

Or even better, what about a no background, no hobby section, no colour Codex: Freakshow, with separate, standalone lists for all of the factions mentioned above? (yes, I know this is incredibly unrealistic)

wight_widow wrote:This is mostly a reaction to the OP.

Wow, quite a reaction - you put a *lot* of good thought into this!

kind of liked the idea of each branch of the Inquisition having their own pet army, be it GK, SoB or Deathwatch,

Me, too. Tho note that the Assassin temples also count as the Chamber Militant for Ordo Sicarus. And there are certainly other Ordos out there.

The intuitive approach IMHO would be to strip the whole list back to Inquisitors and retinues. Make them troops and have lord level Inquisitors available as elites as well as HQ, like Tyranid Warriors.

Hmm... I hadn't thought about this as an approach. I usually see Inquisitors as lone heroes, with a retinue, and then a personal guard of various sorts that they can call down from their black ship in orbit. In the Fluff, Inquistors might also be doubled-up, as master and apprentice.

They don't need heavy equipment (edit - exterminatus aside) just connections, credits and a few extremely loyal and occasionally psychopathic enforcers.

I would generally agree. I see the "connections" (and credits) as a way to get basic Allied whatnots for something larger than a game of Kill-Team: some Guardsmen, Sisters, an Assassin, whatever. The "enforcers" would be their personal Stormtroopers, Ogryns, Servitors & Arco-flagellants, Robots, etc. I particularly like Servitors, Arco-flagellants, Robots and the like because they can be "switched on" as needed, rather than requiring a large manned presence.

The most important part would be to include a special rule that removes opponent's consent for allies if you are playing Inquisition, so long as you conform to a certain format. ... This would let players in casual settings make armies from whatever odds and sods they had lying around, while potentially forcing a modicum of balance on it in a competitive environment - kind of like the DoW in WHFB.

Um, you're aware that the DoW are no longer allowed in GW GTs, right? Like Chaos Dwarves, my DoW don't have an WFB6+ Army Book, so they can't be fielded.

Anyhow, in casual games, things are almost Apocalypse-like, so rules don't matter so much as the story.

why don't we give the Officio Assassinorum back their own Codex?

Because it would be way extreme and hard to balance? Fluff-wise, it's like when the Imperials decided to assassinate Traitor Primarch "Night Haunter" Konrad Curze. Trying to balance an "army" consisting entirely of Assassins would be very difficult, which is why IG Armored Company isn't likely to move forward, either.

Or even better, what about a no background, no hobby section, no colour Codex: Freakshow, with separate, standalone lists for all of the factions mentioned above? (yes, I know this is incredibly unrealistic)

I think that might be "the other thread", or a new thread.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Who honestly wants a Codex where Grey Knights are reduced to a single Elites choice as part of a larger army. Or where the Chamber Militants of the Ordo Malleus and Xenos are sidelined in favour of 'Sisterly Love'.

Pathetic, and an insult to people who actually like playing Grey Knights or who want to see a rich and expanded Inquisition.

I mean, it's a perfect fit for Jervis Edition 40K, but othre than that, it's beyond dull.

Not to mention dull. Did I mention dull?

I go back to my original 'Generic Imperium' Codex, as that seems to be what ol' Jonny boy wants. As little variety of units as possible - side line armies that 'shouldn't (by his reckoning) be armies, except for Sisters ( uber alles!!!), and generally enhancing the... generic feel of the list.


The only thing I don't disagree with is Jonny-boy's notion that Deathwatch shouldn't Deep Strike. I feel that steps on the GK's toes as well.

BYE

Well, as this is the Proposed Forum, there's nothing to say full GK and SOB lists couldn't be handled in their own codexes. This would represent an allies type item to an Inquisitor list. Frankly I like the concept of the chicks with sticks having their own codex. After all, in the fluff they probably outnumber marines by 10,000 or so to 1, if not more.

JohnHwangDD wrote:OK, so why the issue with making an Inquisition Dreadnought-class unit, but calling it a "Robot"?

Then, when GW gets serious about AdMech, they can do like SM Dreads with their Robots and have Venerable, Furioso, Siege, and other variants unique to the AdMech. In this case, the Inquisition only having access to the most basic variant is essentially similar to how the Inqisition would only have access to the basic Sisters, SM, or IG.

If you want to have a generic Inquisition Dread that can be labeled as GK, DW, or even SoB or a robot, that's fine. But to me, the Legio Cybernetica entry feels shoehorned into the list. If you want to add a Robot, then add some other Ad Mech stuff - Ad Mech magos in retinues, Electro Priests, whatever. And frankly, this would be easy to do, too. I mean if you're going to have a generic Inquisition Dread that could be any of those things, then there's no reason that you couldn't just have "Adeptus Mechanicus Magos" added to the list of the other names of types of Inq retinue Sages. And there's no reason you couldn't just say that either Arco-Flagellants or Sisters Repentia are Electro Priests.

All I'm saying is that: 1) This list was originally intended to be an Inquisitor list, 2) I don't see the Ad Mech as playing a major role in the Inquisition's dealings, thus I don't think robots fit in with Inquisitor fluff, and 2) if you want something to fill a heavy walker slot, there are other already existing heavy walkers that I think fit better with the fluff. If you want the Ad Mech in there, that's fine, but if you do, I think it needs to have more of a presence than just the Legio Cybernetica.

The Ordo Sicarius is like an oversite committe for the Officio Assasinorum... they don't control them!!!

Please correct me if I'm wrong.

BYE

H.B.M.C. wrote:The Ordo Sicarius is like an oversite committe for the Officio Assasinorum... they don't control them!!!

Please correct me if I'm wrong.

I thought you were correct as well, but when I double-checked found that John's right. While assassination can only be ordered in agreement with the Senate of the High Lords of Terra, the Ordo Sicarius is assigned with monitoring and controlling the Officio Assassinorum.

While I don't think they necessarily need major inclusion, the two other Ordos that have been discussed in the fluff are kinda interesting:
- The Ordo Sepulturum - focuses on the research, containment, and destruction of plague zombies and those infected with the Obliterator Virus. (Sorta like the WHO or CDC.)
- The Ordo Obsuletus - Investigates phenomena (such as the Legion of the Damned), and determines if they are threats to the Imperium. (Sounds kinda Mulder and Scully to me!)

All three of those are minor Ordos, and aren't exactly the type of thing that would show up leading a Grand Armee of the Imperium at any point, whereas a Malleus, Xenos and especially a Hereticus Inquisitor could realistically show up with a huge army behind him to stop a massive Chaos Cult or Alien incursion or something.

BYE

H.B.M.C. wrote:All three of those are minor Ordos, and aren't exactly the type of thing that would show up leading a Grand Armee of the Imperium at any point, whereas a Malleus, Xenos and especially a Hereticus Inquisitor could realistically show up with a huge army behind him to stop a massive Chaos Cult or Alien incursion or something.

Totally true - I was just pointing out Sepulturum and Obsuletus as they're pretty cool, fluff-wise. I certainly wouldn't expect them to get any rules.

Death By Monkeys wrote:If you want the Ad Mech in there, that's fine, but if you do, I think it needs to have more of a presence than just the Legio Cybernetica.

Actually, it doesn't, at least not necessarily. In this list, each group generally gets to provide 1 entry - Imperial Assassin, Battle Sisters, Inducted Guard, Seconded Marines, Deathwatch Kill Team, Grey Knights. The AdMech entry is the Imperial Robot. IOW, it's what the Inquisitor can get his hands on fairly easily.

Adding lots of other AdMech stuff makes it an AdMech Codex, rather than an Inquisition Codex, which breaks the basic design idea of having the focus on the Inquisititor and what he can grab.

Death By Monkeys wrote:
Totally true - I was just pointing out Sepulturum and Obsuletus as they're pretty cool, fluff-wise. I certainly wouldn't expect them to get any rules.

I would tend to agree - they'll make great Fluff, and such lesser Ordos can be represented by an unmarked Inquisitor with a pile of "counts as" stuff.

While those minor ordos are interesting I don't know how they'd fit in or work... Ordo Sicarius extra assassins? Ordo Sepulturum, flamer armed containment teams? Ordo Obsuletus... who knows?

I think it's better that the minor Ordos be relegated to the 'I didn't take a specific major Ordos, so I could be anytihng' pike. Don't need special rules for everything - just the three main ones.

BYE