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FOR THIS POLL, PLEASE ANSWER HOW YOU CHOOSE TO PLAY THE GAME, NOT NECESSARILY WHAT THE RULES AS WRITTEN (RAW) SAY.




The Necron Resurrection Orb rules say (Necron codex, pg 15): "The Necron Lord is able to augment the self-repair systems of Necrons within 6" of him. All Necron units with a model within 6" (including the Lord himself) may attempt 'We'll be back' rolls even if they were damaged by weaponry that causes instant death or close combat weapons that allow no Armour save."


The online GW Necron FAQ says:
"Q. When is the range of the resurrection orb checked? At the time the Necron becomes damaged or at the start of the turn when WBB is rolled for?
A. Check range when a Necron becomes damaged. If at least one (undamaged) model in the unit is within 6" of a resurrection orb at that point leave the damaged Necron on the board. Otherwise, immediately remove it from the table as a casualty."


The We'll Be Back! rule says (Necron codex, pg 13): "Damaged Necrons are ignored completely for all normal game purposes such as unit coherency, measuring ranges, calculating whether other units can self-repair, and so on -- they are debris only."





QUESTION: If a Necron Lord is damaged (downed), and another model Necron model within 6" is damaged (downed) by a weapon that is twice the Strength of the Necron's Toughness (which means he would not normally be allowed to self-repair from this wound) does this other Necron model benefit from the Resurrection Orb carried by the damaged (downed) Necron Lord?



OPTION A. Yes. As long as the Lord model is on the table (even in a damaged state) the Resurrection Orb continues to function and protect other Necron units that have a model within 6" of the damaged Necron Lord.


OPTION B. No. Once the Necron Lord becomes damaged (downed) he is ignored for all game purposes so his Resurrection Orb fails to affect the game at except for use upon himself (because the Resurrection Orb explicitly rules say so).


OPTION C. Something else entirely: reply exactly what it is below.

The We'll Be Back! rule says (Necron codex, pg 13): "Damaged Necrons are ignored completely for all normal game purposes such as unit coherency, measuring ranges, calculating whether other units can self-repair, and so on -- they are debris only."

States in itself that damaged necrons are ignored for calculating if another necron can self-repair.

"Damaged Necrons are ignored completely"

Simple and easy.

And all the more reason that WBB needs to become FNP!

I agree. if the lord is down, he isn't technically on the table. his position is just marked by the model incase he gets back up again.

to say otherwise would be like saying that you could use a special character's abilities while they were still in reserve. if they're not ON THE TABLE and able to be interacted with than they're not on the table and can't be interacted with!

NaZ

Anyone shot before the Lord goes down gets the benefit of course, as well as the Lord himself, but once he's down, everyone else is out of luck.

Option B, which is also why you roll his roll first; if he lives, you would then be able to measure off of him and onto fallen Necrons within the radius.

I don't think so, I am pretty sure the orb has to be within 6" when the other model goes down, not when the WBB roll happens.

Actually, technically the model is still on the table- just ignored. Ignored does not mean wargear stops functioning.

The We'll Be Back! rule says (Necron codex, pg 13): "Damaged Necrons are ignored completely for all normal game purposes such as unit coherency, measuring ranges, calculating whether other units can self-repair, and so on -- they are debris only."

Correct!

States in itself that damaged necrons are ignored for calculating if another necron can self-repair

However, we are not checking if a Necron of the same type is within 6". We are talking about a piece of wargear.

And all the more reason that WBB needs to become FNP!

NO NO NO. That completely goes against the fluff of the army. FNP and WBB work totally different from each other. All that needs to be done to fix WBB is for GW to create a clear outlined time-lined sequence that WBB follows. Why they heave been unable to do this yet, I don't know.

I agree. if the lord is down, he isn't technically on the table. his position is just marked by the model incase he gets back up again.

It (the lord) is technically still on the table. The rules say specifically, it "remains on the tabletop and is laid on it's side..." page 13

Option B, which is also why you roll his roll first; if he lives, you would then be able to measure off of him and onto fallen Necrons within the radius.

Coredump is correct here. You measure when the Necron takes a wound per the FAQ.

In a tounament situation, spirit of the rules can get very confusing and lead to arguments. Everybody has a different interpretation. RAW doesn't always make logical sense, but it's the only way to be fair and consistent to both sides.

I interpret it as within 6" of the lord model not within 6" of the lord unit, therefor if he is down other units its still benefit from the orb.

Angelis Ex wrote:

The We'll Be Back! rule says (Necron codex, pg 13): "Damaged Necrons are ignored completely for all normal game purposes such as unit coherency, measuring ranges, calculating whether other units can self-repair, and so on -- they are debris only."

Correct!

Good!

Angelis Ex wrote:

And all the more reason that WBB needs to become FNP!

NO NO NO. That completely goes against the fluff of the army. FNP and WBB work totally different from each other.

Yeah, because FNP is well-defined and understood by all players, whereas WBB affords pleny of opportunities to cheat or confuse. I have almost never seen a Necron player play WBB properly when it was to their deteriment. Especially when also fielding Tomb Spyder and/or Res Orb.

And as far as Fluff goes, it doesn't need to change one bit. Just the rule: "We'll Be Back - Necrons have the Feel No Pain USR." Simple and effective.

Angelis Ex wrote:

I agree. if the lord is down, he isn't technically on the table. his position is just marked by the model incase he gets back up again.

It (the lord) is technically still on the table. The rules say specifically, it "remains on the tabletop and is laid on it's side..." page 13

The MODEL is on the table, but counts as debris only. Therefore, there is no Res Orb Wargear around until the Lord gets back up.

Angelis Ex wrote:In a tounament situation, spirit of the rules can get very confusing and lead to arguments. Everybody has a different interpretation. RAW doesn't always make logical sense, but it's the only way to be fair and consistent to both sides.

If everybody has a different interpretation, and RAW doesn't make sense, then the easiest way to be fair and consistent is to move WBB to FNP.

JohnHwangDD wrote:
Yeah, because FNP is well-defined and understood by all players, whereas WBB affords pleny of opportunities to cheat or confuse. I have almost never seen a Necron player play WBB properly when it was to their deteriment. Especially when also fielding Tomb Spyder and/or Res Orb.

So every Necron opponent you've played is a cheater? No wonder you're biased.

And as far as Fluff goes, it doesn't need to change one bit. Just the rule: "We'll Be Back - Necrons have the Feel No Pain USR." Simple and effective.

I could not disagree more. We'll be back is the Necron's special rule. They get back up. They do not ignore pain. The solution is simple as I've stated above.

The MODEL is on the table, but counts as debris only. Therefore, there is no Res Orb Wargear around until the Lord gets back up.

You are making up words to make the rules suggest what you want them to. The wording is "seen as just more battlefield debris." not "counts as". There is no rule to suggest that the wargear ceases to function if the model is currently not functioning.

Angelis Ex wrote:In a tounament situation, spirit of the rules can get very confusing and lead to arguments. Everybody has a different interpretation. RAW doesn't always make logical sense, but it's the only way to be fair and consistent to both sides.

If everybody has a different interpretation, and RAW doesn't make sense, then the easiest way to be fair and consistent is to move WBB to FNP.

WOW, you quote me. Then you immediately take it out of context as a premise to support an argument that does not follow the premise at all!! Bravo.

In my experience, the overwhelming majority of Necron players don't play WBB correctly. That is a problem. Whether they are cheating, "cheating", or just confused / mistaken differes only as to intent which is hard to discern.

FNP, however, has very few problems. As the rules effect of WBB and FNP are essentially the same, then FNP is a superior rule.

Getting back up is the Fluff. FNP is the Rule. I don't think this is a difficult concept to grasp.

There is no rule to suggest that wargear functions when the model isn't functioning. If there is, please show me. Does the Res Orb say "this still works if the Lord is down"?

You know, for someone who is trying to argue a point, how come you can't wrap your head around the simple phrase "ignored completely"?

To most players, that's pretty straightforward... :S

Oh, yeah:

If the essence of your reply is going to boil down to "it doesn't say I can't", please don't bother replying - you automatically lose, so just concede.

lordofthedead wrote:I interpret it as within 6" of the lord model not within 6" of the lord unit, therefor if he is down other units its still benefit from the orb.

Sure, so how do you figure out if it is within 6"?

Remember, downed models are ignored for things like... measuring range.

If the downed lord is "completely ignored" and you can't use it to measure range.... how can it possibly be used?

JohnHwangDD wrote:FNP, however, has very few problems. As the rules effect of WBB and FNP are essentially the same, then FNP is a superior rule.

Getting back up is the Fluff. FNP is the Rule. I don't think this is a difficult concept to grasp.

No, the concept is elementary. I grasp it. FNP being a superior rule is a matter of your opinion. FNP and WBB are not essentially the same. The game dynamic is very different between them.

There is no rule to suggest that wargear functions when the model isn't functioning. If there is, please show me. Does the Res Orb say "this still works if the Lord is down"?

Well, that's the problem isn't it? The rules are a bit hazy here. That's why this thread was started in the first place. I believe the general consensus is that wargear functions as long as the model remains on the table and stops functioning when that model is removed from play.

You know, for someone who is trying to argue a point, how come you can't wrap your head around the simple phrase "ignored completely"?

To most players, that's pretty straightforward... :S

Once again you are making up wording to make the rules suggest something you want them to. The codex absolutely does NOT state "ignored completely".
You know, for someone who is trying to argue a point, how come you can't wrap your head around the actual wording of the rules.

The We'll Be Back! rule says (Necron codex, pg 13): "Damaged Necrons are ignored completely for all normal game purposes such as unit coherency, measuring ranges, calculating whether other units can self-repair, and so on -- they are debris only." (emphasis mine)

Now, it is obvious you are going to say your argument didn't hinge on that, but this seems to be fairly easy to deduce to be RAW (though not immediately obvious to everybody).

However, this is a issue on how you play something, not what RAW is (though knowing RAW first is important). So, on that note, I think that you would use it on a downed lord, but I'm not 100% sure I would do that. I suppose my main justification is that all shooting is supposed to happen simultaneously, and therefore all nearby necrons would benifit.

Thats about all I have for this one...

JohnHwangDD wrote:Oh, yeah:

If the essence of your reply is going to boil down to "it doesn't say I can't", please don't bother replying - you automatically lose, so just concede.

Very funny. How ironic. I was just thinking that the essence of your argument seems to be "because I said so". If you would actually care to use actual rules and coherent logic to argue your point, please feel free. Although I don't think it will help support your point.

This really isn't about me winning or losing the argument. It's about getting it right for everyone. If you believe it should be played differently, then play it your way. If we ever play a game we can dice for it. If I play you at a tournament, we can let a judge decide. Just remember, a good judge will look at what the rules say not how you think it should be played.

Arglebooster wrote:The We'll Be Back! rule says (Necron codex, pg 13): "Damaged Necrons are ignored completely for all normal game purposes such as unit coherency, measuring ranges, calculating whether other units can self-repair, and so on -- they are debris only." (emphasis mine)

Now, it is obvious you are going to say your argument didn't hinge on that, but this seems to be fairly easy to deduce to be RAW (though not immediately obvious to everybody).

However, this is a issue on how you play something, not what RAW is (though knowing RAW first is important). So, on that note, I think that you would use it on a downed lord, but I'm not 100% sure I would do that. I suppose my main justification is that all shooting is supposed to happen simultaneously, and therefore all nearby necrons would benifit.

Thats about all I have for this one...

Well, it seems that the precise wording of "ignored completely" is not present in the first printing of the codex, but it is there in the second. While my entire argument did not hinge on that wording being absent from the rules it did help support it. Regardless, I believe my argument still holds water. Else, this thread would not have been started in the first place.

"Ignored completely" is pretty definitive.

Downed Lord is about as important and useful as a random dust bunny drifting across the table.

My apologies to JohnHwangDD . I now see that you were using an actual quote from the 2nd printing of the codex and not making up the wording as I had previously suggested. Sorry about that.

Angelis Ex wrote:Well, that's the problem isn't it? The rules are a bit hazy here. That's why this thread was started in the first place. I believe the general consensus is that wargear functions as long as the model remains on the table and stops functioning when that model is removed from play.

Actually, with a vote of 9 to 25, I would say the general consensus is that the wargear in question stops functioning when the Lord goes down, despite still being on the table.

Oh, and I'll add in my vote of switching Necrons to Feel No Pain as well. It's a FAR simpler rule to use, as well as much more beneficial to the Necrons. We'll Be Back isn't very useful if your unit of Warriors was wiped out in combat, or your three man Wraith team all goes down, before they ever get a chance to make the saves they're paying so many points to have.

Option B.

And yeah, this is why replacing WBB with FNP is a must for the next Necron Codex. WBB is just too clunky. FNP just works.

And then they make it so the ResOrb projects a 4+ Invulnerable Save to all models within 6", and the problem is solved.

BYE

H.B.M.C. wrote:
And then they make it so the ResOrb projects a 4+ Invulnerable Save to all models within 6", and the problem is solved.

That would make them much more survivable vs AP3 weaponry though so maybe not such a good idea. Res Orb that let's you FNP no matter what is more in line of what it does currently.

BTW, to those that feel that FNP is unfluffy for Necrons, do you really think that Necrons do feel pain?

Yeah, I would imagine the orb will just let all models ignore the normal exceptions from Feel No Pain. Tomb Spiders or Monoliths would be better examples of something to radiate a 5++ save to units with-in range.

Oh, sure Necrons feel pain. Just because they're undieing machines built for the sole purpose of scouring life from the galaxy doesn't mean they don't have a sensitive side.

Not that it matters now, except for RAI purposes, but I would like to point out that the 3rd ed. faq stated that the Res Orb on a downed Lord still functioned as normal, until he failed his WBB.

I will ask again.

Since the unit must be within 6" of the Orb to gain the benefits, and you can't use the model for measuring distance...

How do you tell if it is within 6"

Since you can't meet the pre-condition, you can't benefit from the wargear.

As a Necron player for a few years now, Once the lord falls HE NO LONGER COUNTS AS BEING O)N THE TABLE. So the Res orb no longer works. Any model killed after the lord by ID or No save wound will not get a WWB roll.

Also, WWB WORKS, it should not be changed just because a small group of people like to cry. How dare we have an army that is not the same as everything els! :S

From the way i read it i think the effect of the orb would be in play till the lord failed his ill be back roll. It seems that he wouldnt a casuality(and the effect of the orb would be in play) till he fails his last ill be back.