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I sent this private message to Deadshane a while ago, but never got a response.
I'm opening it up to the masses here for discussion.

Hey there,

I've been out of the game for all of third edition and am looking at getting back in with a small model count army (just because I'm a bit of a perfectionist and it takes me an age to paint and model things).

What I really want is an army with an above average troop choice. Not in value vs points, but in ability. It might be lame, but if I am going to spend 15+ hours assembling and painting a guy I don't really want to have bullet-catchers (Tactical Marines anyone?)

Now I've read your Grey Knight tactica, and I made an initial list that some weeks ago was shouted down by, well, you can guess the regular naysayers. I started to gravitate towards a pure Deathwing army, however Beilal's 130pt cost make it difficult to juggle points costs.

Who in your opinion (as you seemingly have had at least some experience with both forces) has the stronger codex, taking into account that I would never use anything other than each armies namesake units in any list (although, for the sake of completeness you could expand upon the potential of the lists when Ravenguard or IST // inquisitor retinue are thrown in the mix).

For what it is worth, here are three possible lists....

Obviously you can imagine the lists.
1500pts with 250pt increments.
2 Land Radiers minimum in each list and filled with as many troops you can once an adequate HQ has been purchased.

75 views, 5 votes. Not looking like a hot thread is it?
Here are two possible lists to hopefully spark interest.

GREY KNIGHTS
2000pts


HEADQUARTERS
Brother Captain (W/ Psycannon)
4 Grey Knight Terminators (W/ Psycannon)
300pts



ELITE
Brother Captain (W/ Psycannon)
4 Grey Knight Terminators (W/ Psycannon)
300pts


TROOPS
1 Justicar
7 Grey Knights
225pts

1 Justicar
7 Grey Knights
225pts

1 Justicar
7 Grey Knights
225pts

1 Justicar
7 Grey Knights
225pts


HEAVY SUPPPORT
1 Grey Knight Land Raider
250pts

1 Grey Knight Land Raider
250pts

DARK ANGELS
(2000pts)[u]


HEADQUARTERS
Beilal
130pts


ELITE
Dark Angel Dreadnought (W/Lascannon)
145


TROOPS
Deathwing Terminator Squad (W/ Ass. Cannon & Chainfist)
250

Deathwing Terminator Squad (W/ Ass. Cannon)
245

Deathwing Terminator Squad (W/ Ass. Cannon)
245

Deathwing Terminator Squad (W/ Ass. Cannon)
245

Deathwing Terminator Squad (W/ Ass. Cannon)
245


HEAVY SUPPORT
Land Raider
250pts

Land Raider
250pts



Or substitute the dread for 150pt(ish) OPTIONS
Grey Knight Grand Master
Interrogator Chaplin
Dark Angels Librarian
Brother Captain + 2 Grey Knight Terminators

Ive got some experience running a Deathwing list, its very fun to use, and the dark angels codex allows you to use deathwing, normal marines AND Ravenwing. Not sure if your into bikes, but you can easily build an effective death/raven list. Ill put up some of my sample lists.
Deathwing 960

Belial- 130+25+30 185

dread w/ 2 lascannons 145
dred with melta 125

Terminator squad (shooty) with
assault cannon and 2 chainfists 255

Terminator squad (assaulty)
with 1 assault cannon and fist 250


Ravenwing 1197
Sammel 205+15+25 245

Ravenwing attack squad 6 guys,power sword
attack bike, flamer, speeder 391

Ravenwing attack squad 6guys,power sword
attack bike, meltagun ,speeder 396

ravenwing support squad-1assault cannon
and one plain 165



Death raven-2157

to make this 2000, id drop the land speeders. Once i beat a 240 model ork list with this I have so much fun with this, and deathwing/ ravenwing is easy to buy, build and paint. Youve got great fluff too. Id highly suggest deathraven. Especially with the AoBR set's termies and dred, it would be pretty cheap. Also, having troop termies and bikes makes this list good with kill points and with combat squads, good at objective taking.

Deathwing, because two dozen Terminators humping an objective are going to be very hard to scrape off of it. Especially with people drifting away from AP2.

Greyknight spam out of landraiders is brutally effective given their powerful HtH and Shooting options.

Deathwing/ravenwing list is quite effective, its a usable nichje within a very lacklustre codex.

Asdvance deployed bikes and teleport homers is good.

However new pod rules mean vanilla can drop as accurately and with a greater diversity of troops. Mixing sternguard tacticals and drads in the assault, with any termies and assault marines following.

Even a really, really small Sternguard army should still have 50 or so Marine models. I think he's looking for considerably smaller.

I'd really opt for 3 land raiders instead of 2 at 2000.

sourclams
They are quite difficult to move from an objective. True.
However, the GK have over 1/3 more wounds. 10 of which are (arguably) terminators that are more effective than those of the Deathwing
With the Deathwing, I am a bit worried about the amount of dakka they put out for their points cost. The PAGK provide more offensive power, although with such a small model count, maybe resilience should be more of a concern...


grimnar84
I dunno about assaulting out of radiers with GK. I imagine they would get pasted by 'pure' assault armies. I think shooting and then engaging is the better option with either of these two forces.


thekyle1231
I've thought about doublewing.
I just can't stomach the costs of the ravenwing bikers and sammel. I can purchase 600 points of non-scoring terminators and have almost as many scoring units from the marine codex via a bike mounted captain. Still, more food for thought.


Orlanth
I have thought about a Sterngard-centric force.
3xSternguard/Pods/Kantor/Assault squads.
My issue is the eventual loss of Sternguard counting as scoring units come the next marine codex


MarvinGayeIsMyDaddy
True about the landradiers. I can't see anything I would want to drop to get another one though.


EVERYONE
--As you can probably tell, I am leaning towards the Grey Knights, but my head (and wallet as my plan for the GKPA will mean big $$$) and the general opinion is Deathwing. I'm just not seeing it though after looking at some rough in-my-head math.
--I don't see the Deathwing being any more resilient. AP2 weapons might be disappearing but how many AP3 weapons are out there? Apart from 1000Sons and the Sternguard, I don't see alot.....
--In addition, while the assault cannons are more potent than the Psycannons they are spread one per squad :-( . The Deathwing only have 2 more heavy weapons than the GK list, and the GK have (seemingly) more standard firepower and around equal combat prowess.

If that's what you want to play, that's what you should play. Personally, I'd run a vanilla Space Marines list with combat squadded cyclone missile launcher terminators and LRR/LRCs.

2000 pts

HQ: Lysander

Troop: 2x 10 Tactical Marines, flamer, Plasma Cannon

Elites: 2x Terminatorx10, 2 Cyclone Missile Launcher, 1 Chain fist

Heavy: 2x Land Raider Redeemer, multimelta

Lysander, aside from being a close combat god, can be used defensively to reinforce a terrain piece with objectives giving your tac squads 3+cover saves, or 2+ if you go to ground. His Bolter drill can also be used to create a pretty amazing firing platform at 24" range. Cyclone missile launchers allow you to be deadly at long range while the redeemers can butcher anything closing into short. Against Horde armies, you tank shock them into compact balls that you annihilate with flamer and small blast templates. Against MEQ assault armies you shoot down transports and cook them with Redeemers while counterassaulting to great effect. Against long range shooting armies you smoke up and go for the assault. And against mid-range and light vehicles you just sit back and out-shoot them. I'd rather run this list than either that you posted. It has more wounds and is better oriented towards offense and defense. And to make it really crazy, you can drop 1 CML and a Chain Fist and pick up a Daemonhunter Inquisitor with Mystics "just in case".

Sourclams objection is right. The SM Codex provides an alterative by using Imperial Fists. The Assault Termies with storm shields are hard to overlook. A 10 men squad is a shock and awe unit, absolutely undestructable.

I really dont have an opinion about deathwing since the current codex angered me so badly. (gave up DA entirely for a new Iron Hands list! :( )

I think that low model count armies should have a good shooting game however. At first glance I would say that Grey Knights, with access to psycannons and power armoured stormbolters, would have a stronger shooting game.

I would pick them over Deathwing, and strangely enough, you have more variety in models than deathwing, at least if you get tired of painting terminators you can start up with some power armoured models.

I CAN attest to the fact that Deathwing has great synergy with RAVENWING (obviously) but since this is the only trick in the DA codex and its pretty well been explored to death already there's not much challenge in it....its also easy to see coming.

I voted Grey Knights but right now I might be a bit biased, since they're one of my current projects and all. I figure that the two armies play quite a bit alike with deathwing being a bit more resiliant due to TOTAL terminator armoured troops. Grey knights should edge them out shooting however, and they have other advantages, shrouding, nemesis weapons, psycannon, force weapons, and other things.

Both are nitch armies, but Grey Knights seem more exotic to me. I would think the two armies are fairly close in power (even having not played pure deathwing since late 3e) so you're REALLY left with a choice that will have more to do with fluff and model preferance.

I would pick your army on those two reasons.

At 1500 points, I've found Deathwing to be very shooty. The combination of the squads and LRCs is excellent compact antihorde.

Grey Knights need a skilled player to use but are a fun army to play. Remember that you can ally Grey Knights with Deathwing if you want, for variety.