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Recently there's been a revival of interest in the "Deathstar" theory of army construction (and by extension the WHFB board as a whole). I'm thinking of making a "Make the Best Deathstar list" thread, but I decided to preface it with a definition/discussion thread so I can see what page we are all on when we use this phrase.

Death Star origin:

In a balanced list, the elite units and the characters do most of the heavy lifting. This will prove to be the case in battle after battle, codex after codex. The reason is simple, they are the only ones asked to do so. Common units set up the pins to get knocked down by the elite guys. That's pretty much why you spend points on elites/characters, rather than a larger # of common guys. You expect great things of them.

Everyone's had their elite unit run into some manner of buzzsaw character and get diced, Tarkins (hereafter shorthand for players who adopt a Deathstar [herafter DS] strategy) put a character in the elite unit in order to take down enemy characters. This is reasonable and commonplace, a fighting Lord choice that leads an elite unit is a centerpiece of many armies, perhaps even a majority.

In close gaming groups (where the same people play routinely), these proto DS's will clash, and the winners will become widely known. If an enemy's Lord + Elites can defeat yours, even when you get the charge, its a serious problem. Now the threat of battling their unit precludes the use/deployment of yours. Ordinary players diversify their units, perhaps adopting an MSU setup, or a gunline. Tarkins inflate the unit.

A second hero more or less equals win when faced with a one character setup on the enemy's side, as the two main guys will duel while your hero scythes down their rank and file, which permits your front rank to swing, and lets you break their unit, regardless of the outcome of the main guy's conflict. A Lord and a Hero leading an elite fighting unit is about as fierce as you can make a unit, in terms of killing power. It costs about 800 points in most dexes, once you factor in command, banners, magic items, etc, and it can beat down just about any other enemy unit, even if they get the charge.

Yet, this doesn't usually improve the Tarkin's winning percentage. The unit itself will usually perform admirably, when it gets to fight it'll just run things over. Yet the rest of the army is now fighter-less (presuming that the remaining 2 heroes are a scroll caddy and a BSB), and they can't all hide in the shadow of the DS. Further, the proto-DS still has vulnerabilities. It can be flanked, or maybe it can still run away from a bad panic test.

A typical defeat for such a list has the proto-DS standing around with minor damage, while the rest of the army is in tatters and the enemy occupies all quadrants. Maybe the DS ran over an infantry unit and some skirmishers, but it couldn't prevent the enemy from destroying its accompanying units. Once again, the Tarkin inflates.

The DS's true strength lies in points denial. By loading all the armies points into one, unstoppable, giant unit Tarkins essentially limit their enemy's ability to get value from their army's offense. With all characters the DS is made of murder, and all those points all it to have all the goodies in the army book. Shooting will never reduce it below half (its too big/protected), CC isn't an option and magic raplidly loses utility when faced with one enemy unit that shrugs magic missiles, and doesn't mind being flanked.

The final form of a Deathstar is one unit with all the characters in it and all the armies goodies. It might be led by a crazy-expensive special character, if there is one with applicable abilities. It can take a rear charge from an enemy elite unit, hold for a round, then move all the characters over and obliterate it. The army consists of the Deathstar and some minimum sized core units that try to hide and hold table quarters. Sometimes there is also a couple of units that are just "too good" to leave behind. Maybe its goblin bolt throwers, maybe its a screaming skull catapult, but they are always things that often kill their points value.

DS Components:

Unit: The core unit of the DS gives you both less and more than you'd think. Fighting strength actually isn't paramount, or anywhere close to it. The majority of the combat will be done by characters. In a typical DS the only guy in the front row who isn't a character is the standard bearer. Yet, most Death Stars are composed of elite units.

This seeming contradictions is explained when we consider what a unit can add to a DS.

#1: Special Rules: Stubborn, ASF, what have you, the unit can add special rules to the DS.
#2: Standards: The unit standard is often key.
#3: Large max size. Clearly you want your DS to be big. insures your chars get to fight when you are flank charged, allows you to charge more enemies at once, etc. This is esp. important if you can't get ITP in there.
#4: Saves: Good saves are key to surviving flank charges until the chars get over there and start kicking tail. They also enable the unit to weather shooting attacks.
#5: Max points invested. Since the DS's real purpose is points denial it has to eat up all the points in the list that aren't devoted to the chars.

For all of these reasons, the unit itself will likely be an elite unit.

Another unit specific question is whether the unit will be cav or infantry based. In most codexes, for a variety of reasons, the Cav DS is the better way to go. Undead armies can often get away with infantry DS's (Urgency/Vanhels), but the faster you can get the DS the better, and most armies have a heavy cav unit that's suitable. The Beast Cowers is a counter-argument, however.

Challenger: This is the guy who throws up a challenge when the enemy charges in. He is most often the Lord. This guy has got to be able to stand the best of what the enemy can throw at him, then retaliate and obliterate their challenger. If the enemy feeds him a champ the Challenger has to be able to extract the max overkill. Typically the Challenger needs a Ward save, a good armor save, and a d3 wound weapon. Killing Blow is great if you can get it, as is ASF.

BSB: This guy is just here to bring the best banner in the army, or just an extra war banner if the dex doesn't have 2 good ones. It's better to get the best banner onto the unit if its possible, but sometimes points force it to be given to this guy. The BSB also cuts down enemy troops, but that isn't his primary job, he's mostly here to wave the flag and give the associated bennies.

Reaper: The other hero is here to deal damage to rank and file. A good armor save and a great weapon is the easiest way to do this (usually 2 casualties per hero is sufficient), but with all the armies points at your disposal you can also look at giving him a ~50 point weapon and trying to get a third wound out of it. He is also necessary for denying wounds to the enemy Lord if he ducks your Challenger's challenge and tries for rank and file.

Spare: The last hero slot is most likely an extra reaper, but there are several other uses for him. You can put an invulnerable char in there (that is, deals no damage but rerolls his save or some such nonsense), if your dex has such a thing, or put a unit wide universal on him. (terror, MR, etc.)

DS Deployment:

The DS's deployment is simplicity itself. Plunk it down opposite the most valuable piece of your foe's force and get ready to march. Hide your core as best you can and hope they don't have time to go contest your quarters. It's worth noting that the DS army will always finish deploying first (except vs. oddball lists like the Khazrak One Eye All-Ambushers list).

DS Formation:
The big question is where the Lord goes. He needs to be in the middle if a dragon charge is in the offing (as it'll only touch 4/5 of the front rank, and may well elect not to touch the Lord if he's not centrally located), and on the appropriate corner if a flank charge threatens. It's also worthwhile to be careful about your standard bearer (typically the only R&F in the front rank). In extreme cases you might want to push him into the back and replace him with your champion, thus completely denying R&F to the enemy.

DS Movement:
The Death Star needs to march towards the enemy every round, until it can charge, and even then it might prefer to march right up in their face, if flight seems imminent. It must be able to accept the enemy charging the flank or rear. Getting stuck in terrain is unacceptable as well, and the enemy target needs to be chosen with an eye towards avoiding such entanglements.

DS Magic:
DS's have no magic of their own, due to lackign mages (and buying bound spells is a waste of time w/out mages to draw the dispel dice), and they tend to lack dispel dice to block the enemy's magic. MR is the saving grace of the DS, as it essentially amounts to dispel dice vs. every enemy spell. It's worthwhile to try for MR3 in a DS, many dexes have a way to get it.

DS Shooting:
DS's have no time for shooting. Each round they must either march or charge. Ideally they are overruning into fresh enemies as often as possible. A good save vs. enemy shooting is a useful DS trait, as is being big enough that casualties don't force panic checks.

DS Combat:
The DS is all about combat. You get charged, the challenger challenges, the reapers reap, the unit cheers and lends static res, the enemy breaks and you run them down. Losing a combat with the DS typically means losing a game, unless its a flank charge where your chars can't fight and you hold and go again next round.

DS Vp Discussion:

At the end of even an ideal game with the DS you are down one quarter (whichever of the enemy's you didn't get into). Frequently they'll hunt down your core, so you'll be down Core + 3 quarters, which is enough to lose by solid victory.

In return, you are up whatever you killed. 2 units is usually enough to win a solid victory (not unusual if you are chasing the enemy down. It goes 1: March. 2: March, 3: Charge, 4: come back on board, 5: Charge, 6: turn) as standards/general make up for quarters.

EDIT: BAWTRM points out that an enemy with sacrificial units can deploy them to block/redirect your DS at very little cost. Quite true. If they are feeding the DS units of any but the smallest proportions it's likely that the game'll be a tie, as throwaway units match up with the missing quarters.

If the enemy made a concerted effort to destroy your DS the outcome of the game is determined by how that went. Even reducing it below half and killing a hero is usually too much for you to recover from, but the more common outcome is a massacre, one way or the other. If they destroyed the DS you naturally lose, and if you destroyed forces significant enough to have a shot they won't be able to make the points back up with their remnants.

DS Vs. Other gimmick armies:

Vs. Gunline: This is usually defeat. You cross the board and charge something which flees, while taking pie plates and bolt throwers all game. Eventually you gobble up something, but you usually get reduced below half and that's doom. Worse is that such a list usually has a march blocker of some sort, or some other way of preventing you from getting there swiftly. You might be ok if the gunline is really a mageline, and you've got good MR.

Vs. No Blocks: This is usually your defeat again. The all-skirmisher list can usually squirm out of the way of your block behind terrain or such, and they are in all 4 quarters.

Vs. blitz list: This'll either be easy or impossible, depending on how well you can handle being double charged by their spear units. Either way, it'll be over swiftly. If you've played this game once, you've played it every time.

Vs DS: The mirror match will be determined, obviously, by who's DS is bigger/better. Usually it doesn't matter too much who gets the charge, it'll be face to face and the best unit will win.

Special rules and their value to DS's:

Regen: Crucial. It prevents much shooting damage and essentially blunts flank charges
ASF: Great, it aids in the whole "not minding if you get charged". This is esp. key as it lets your charaters get the drop on the enemy's.
Stubborn: Meh. You shouldn't be losing.
ITP: Great, it's key to be immune to Fear, Terror and Panic, while the downside of not fleeing is minimized on a unit that never wants to flee.
Unbreakable: Obviously ideal if you can get it.
Fear/Terror: More useful for being immune to enemy's who cause them than for causing enemies to rout. You want them to fight and get run down, not flee.
Frenzy: Unacceptable, anything that costs you control of your army is not worth it.
Hatred: Borderline. Rerolls are nice, mandatory overrun/pursue is a problem. I come down on the side of Hatred, but its debatable.
Stupid: Unacceptable. 4+ ward save isn't worth this on a guy in a unit that's your whole army.

Stubborn is mandatory. Otherwise, the huge DS unit will get sidecharged and lost by some huge number, while the characters are being moved around to face the new threat.

This would be a fantastic article. Let me see if I can dig up the earlier
Deathstar post for reference.

"Stubborn is mandatory. Otherwise, the huge DS unit will get sidecharged and lost by some huge number, while the characters are being moved around to face the new threat."

So long as you have regen or ASF, and you've got your challenger on the corner, it shouldn't be a tragedy to get hit on the flank. Stubborn is good, but you really shouldn't take break tests at all on a ~2k unit.

Are Deathstar Builds the reason for things like Black Guard having a hard
cap to unit size?

I dunno, but I doubt GW is that aware of army building trends. I'd imagine its just customary for infantry units to have max sizes. Seems like infantry is always 5-XX, while cav/monsters are typically X+.

Great article, I'm missing one key weakness of the DS unit though: vulnerability vs cheap throwaway units.

Not for the killing power vs the DS of course but the ability to effectively feed a few very low point units to the DS making it impossible for the DS to gain any points.

Many armies can already bring (and often do) units like this at around 40 pts each.

By your own example of how a game would go that would be: Turn 1 March, Turn 2 March, Turn 3 charge and slaughter a 40 pt unit, Turn 4 get back on board, Turn 5 charge and annihilate another 40 pt unit, Turn 6 turn.

That's around 80 pts gained by a ~2K unit. A cavalry DS could make this 3 or maybe 4 of such units killed

As the DS list by necessity has very few deployments an opponent can commit useless units (like the low VP units) until the DS player has deployed everything (and most importantly, has deploed the DS itself as its location is key). The opponent then simply puts his expensive units as far away as possible from the DS and make sure they only go hunt the remnants of the DS list and avoid the DS as the plague.
A footslogging DS is now essentially screwed but cavalry DS has the mobility to change course for the meatier parts of his opponent's army.

Of course, if the opponent has any brain (and he likely has if he deployed this way vs a DS) he'll make sure his throwaway units will run interference before the DS can succesfully redeploy.

My own Empire army for example can use its Detachments in this role. I don't think I've ever fielded a Detachment worth more than 60 pts (and love the 5 FC sacrificial detachments at 25 pts) so there's absolutely no points to be gained by killing them. Little bonus for the Empire, their death won't even cause Panic.

So, great article but I think you need to include the above as another weakness of the DS. Essentially pointdenialling (new word!) his point denial DS.

Thanks for pointing that out, I added a statement to reflect the DS's vulnerability to being fed cheap units. It's actually immune to the normal cost of such baiting (getting flanked by a hammer), but just spending the whole game killing gyrocopters or what have you is certainly a possibility.

I find this most interesting as an evolution of gaming trends. Very cool. I remember one guy in our old group used to do this with night goblins when you could spam cheap heros.

40kenthusiast wrote:"Stubborn is mandatory. Otherwise, the huge DS unit will get sidecharged and lost by some huge number, while the characters are being moved around to face the new threat."

So long as you have regen or ASF, and you've got your challenger on the corner, it shouldn't be a tragedy to get hit on the flank. Stubborn is good, but you really shouldn't take break tests at all on a ~2k unit.

Eh? You assume that the charging unit will have a character to be challenged in contact. A flanking cav unit can still beat a non stubborn block. The block loses ranks and starts tied with a flanking heavy cav unit. If the cav player manages to charge in such a way as to avoid the character, they could be in serious trouble fast.

I guess I did assume that, but a flanking unit with no chars is just going to have their rank and file ripped up by the challenger on the corner (though you'd probably put the reaper over there if you saw that your flank threat had no chars). There's no way to avoid the char on the corner of a deathstar with a full unit of cav, you have to engage max #'s, and unless the DS is unreasonably long (and that's actually sort of rare, for precisely this reason).

I mean, let's do it as an example battle of generians.

Say the DS is made of generian heavy infantry, t3 with heavy armor, hand weapon and shield. Say the assaulters are generian heavy cav, with lances and s3. 5 of them hit the side of the unit, 2.5 hits, call it 2 wounds. Horses kick 5 times, hit 2.5, wound 1.25, get past save .88, call it 1. They are now 3 wounds up, + flank and banner. DS is at banner + war banner, so 2 down. Generian Lord swings 4 times, 2.66 hits, call it 2 wounds, mass brings it to a tie, both sides have musicians. On the generian turn the heroes swap over, the lances are no longer increasing strength, and the HC are obliterated.

Note that this example was extremely kind to the heavy cav. It assumed no special rules for the DS base troops, that the DS troops wouldn't do any damage swinging back, and that the challenger could only muster 2 wounds. It's possible that the cav should have had better weapon skill than the infantry, but in most dexes it's the same for both.

Note further that even if the chargers luck into a one or two wound victory, the DS is sitting on, min, a Lord's leadership with a BSB reroll.

W/out a character in the charge there's simply not much danger to a DS, unless the flanking unit is made of fundamentally better troops than the DS, which is typically the made of the best troops in its dex. Stubborn isn't mandatory, you shouldn't lose combats if your whole army is one unit.

Is a rear charge worse then? Beastmen could pull off a rear and flank charge pretty easily on a single large regiment. But then I suppose you already pointed out that skirmishers are not the Deathstar's friends.
I'm tempted to try this out as a concept with my orcs.

I think the best deathstar unit is Blood knights....Vampires are rugged, blood knights are rugged, and with vanhels you are much less likely to be led around the table.

@ Boss: Rear charge is definitely worse, as you can't get a character in there and they have +2 to their combat res, besides breaking ranks. It's pretty hard to hit even a DS with a rear charge though (usually they can see all the charges coming and turn to face appropriately), and they still might be able to hold on if they've got regen, asf or stubborn. A truly terrifying DS might even bounce you, unless you put chars into their rear.

@ Joe: I think choosing the best DS unit is a thread all by itself, but I'd be extremely skeptical of a frenzied unit as the ultimate "best". Granted, VC have a regen banner, a sword that heals the unit, amazing characters and vanhels, but you can get a really mean Grave Guard with all that, and it doesn't have to charge whenever possible. If you imagine a Great Eagle flying up and landing diagonal from you in the opposite direction to the enemy's army, you'll get what I'm worried about. A frenzied DS might well find itself following an Eagle or harpy unit around for the whole game, and do precisely squat. A lot of the times when a DS can charge at the edge of its range its better not to (since if the enemy flees they are certain to get away), and you prefer to march right up and stop 1" away, front to front. That way you get them charging you, or you can charge next round and 2/3 d6 is unlikely to get them out.

40kenthusiast wrote:Note that this example was extremely kind to the heavy cav. It assumed no special rules for the DS base troops, that the DS troops wouldn't do any damage swinging back, and that the challenger could only muster 2 wounds. It's possible that the cav should have had better weapon skill than the infantry, but in most dexes it's the same for both.

Note further that even if the chargers luck into a one or two wound victory, the DS is sitting on, min, a Lord's leadership with a BSB reroll.

W/out a character in the charge there's simply not much danger to a DS, unless the flanking unit is made of fundamentally better troops than the DS, which is typically the made of the best troops in its dex. Stubborn isn't mandatory, you shouldn't lose combats if your whole army is one unit.

Yes, but you are assuming a mighty character on the DS unit, and none in the charging unit - that's not reasonable. Instead, you're likely to have a reaper, plus a unit upgrade to take the challenge. The charger will have a 2+ AS, versus the DS unit's 4+. Black Knights would get combat res, for instance - they usually have 1-2 mounted characters in there as well.

Ah, in his example he pointed out that the fundamental assumption of this was that there was no character in the HC unit. Thus it can achieve a flank charge, where the DS tends to face chars (as part of its endless quest for points).

If there is, that character (or a champ) takes the challengers challenge (no where to hide in a HC unit), and the overkill of having him slaughtered by a tooled up Lord choice really mangles the fight's CR. A challenger typically will pull max overkill from a champ, with some sort of high S d3 or d6 wound weapon.

I did factor in the charger's AS, as none of the surviving infantry did any damage to them. I presumed the challenger Lord could push through it, but that seems a safe assumption.

Ah, gotcha - that was an assumption in his assessment.

Problem with the DS unit turning to face a flanking Cav unit is that every turn that it uses to turn to face is a turn that it is not in combat (and also probably not marching either). That turns the flanking Cav unit into a points denial unit - rendering the DS useless. In the meantime, that Cav unit can also be munching the soft and crunchy other units in the DS army, so they can do double duty.

A stubborn DS unit can ignore the cav unit and continue marching towards the other weaker units - so again, I think stubborn is key.

A DS strategy is scary the first time it is used. After a little bit of thought, it's a weak (though not entirely useless) strategy. There are too many counters. Granted, other armies need to have some strategy, in case they suddenly are facing a DS, but that's it.

Antonin wrote:Ah, gotcha - that was an assumption in his assessment.

Problem with the DS unit turning to face a flanking Cav unit is that every turn that it uses to turn to face is a turn that it is not in combat (and also probably not marching either). That turns the flanking Cav unit into a points denial unit - rendering the DS useless. In the meantime, that Cav unit can also be munching the soft and crunchy other units in the DS army, so they can do double duty.

Well, the round after the DS turns to face, the flanking cav unit is run over, and it was a heavy cav unit with a char, so I don't think we can call it points denial. In fact, its likely the biggest thing on the board, so the DS is on its way anyway. The only way I could see this working was if you somehow had a heavy cav unit that moved like light cav and had an "always march" option.

Antonin wrote:
A stubborn DS unit can ignore the cav unit and continue marching towards the other weaker units - so again, I think stubborn is key.

DS's don't march towards the weaker units, they head towards the strongest/most expensive unit.

Antonin wrote:
A DS strategy is scary the first time it is used. After a little bit of thought, it's a weak (though not entirely useless) strategy. There are too many counters. Granted, other armies need to have some strategy, in case they suddenly are facing a DS, but that's it.

Finally, we agree. DS is an inbred strat that evolves in isolation (protected by a metagame that calls the counters "cheesy" or what have you), or a whimsical strat. It's not a serious contender.

Good point, except the DS unit is slower than the Cav unit. If the cav unit is 10" away (within charge range) the DS can turn, and move 3". The cav unit can then turn, move back , the can never get the Cavalry unit, barring an unexpected situation. If the cav unit is in danger of getting hit, it turns around and moves 4" straight back, then turns around again (ready to charge). The DS unit either must then march forward, or turn away to face other threats - if the latter, then a charge is likely, if the former, then the units will be about 3" apart, and it's likely that the Cav can then slip to the side of the DS unit, even if not fast. It does get tight for the Cav unit at some point, but already you're looking at 3 turns where the DS unit is doing nothing, and this is starting on turn 2-3 (to set up the flank charge).

even more fun is where the Cav unit has 1-2 characters, who can be pulled out and sent around the other flank of the DS unit. That shortens the length of the Cav unit, thereby allowing them to wheel more easily, and also makes the DS unit have to choose who to go through. That possibly allows the Cav unit to hit in one area, and the characters to hit from a different side.

Of course, if it is fast cavalry or can move through terrain, like WE, then the Cav is really all set and can easily get away - but then, the DS unit is probably not going to care about them at all in that instance.

Now, if the DS unit is not stubborn, then it has less choice on who to pursue. If it heads straight for the most expensive block, it risks being flanked (possibly on both sides, if facing Brettonia or Cav Empire). If it chases the flankers (which also might be the most expensive unit) it risks wasting its whole game chasing them.

Note that this doesn't apply to Dwarfs, who are really screwed by the DS strategy - they have to march block with a Gyro, shoot a lot at that unit, and then hope that the Dwarf lord can withstand the wounds dealt by the enemy characters. Not easy at all.

JoeOrks wrote:I think the best deathstar unit is Blood knights....Vampires are rugged, blood knights are rugged, and with vanhels you are much less likely to be led around the table.

As 40kenthusiast said, frenzy will be the end of that unit.

What do you think of the effect of VanHels on the viability of Blood Knights? Hard to flee from a unit that double-marches.

@antonin:

Well, if the cav is 10" away the DS just wheels and marches on them, but I imagine you meant 7.5. I think it comes back to what I said earlier. A heavy cav unit with 1-2 characters is the DS's prey anyway. They'll never get into a position where they are flanking it and facing it, because it is marching towards them asap. Unless there's a profound mobility advantage (having trouble thinking of such a thing, maybe a rival Tomb King Chariot Death Star or some sort of flying DS?) you can't get into the flank of an enemy that marches towards you each round. You'll ultimately have to charge or get charged.

Keep in mind that it is unacceptable to set up a points denial gig with sacrificial units. Almost any unit you use in this manner will equalize the points quarter advantage you have, and then you are devoting the rest of the game to flank-strangling the DS for a draw.

Heck, a knight unit with 2 chars is a proto DS anyway, the player will probably just set up a US > 5 flanker and take the charge.

@whitedragon:

Word.

@Antonin:

There's some trouble with that. First off, Vanhels is not urgency. You can't guarantee you'll get it in sufficient quantity to guarantee it goes off without seriously hurting your character fighting power. (remember, one of you guys is going to be the Wight King w/regen banner, so he isn't casting anything). Given that they can ignore literally every spell that isn't urgency, most enemies will be able to shut it down or render it undependable.

Next, it isn't double march, because the move phase might well be used with a failed charge. Normally, with a DS and an enemy at the limit of its range, you just want to march up and stop 1" shy. Blood knights have to charge, then the enemy flees and they only got half their movement rate, with no ability to wheel or alter direction. Worse, you have to move failed charge towards the enemy, who flees on a center of unit to center of unit line. This makes getting a flank with a serious hammer unit (as described above) or a tarpit unit (how long does it take Scylla and a BSB to fight a challenge?)easy as pie.

Vanhels is a huge advantage to a Black Knight or Grave Guard deathstar, but it's hurt a lot by frenzy mucking up the move phase.

If the DS unit wheels 90 degrees and marches, then you have used 7 inches to wheel and can move 1 inch (assuming a 5" wide DS unit). That leaves a cav unit that was 10" away still able to march. Also, a DS unit that marches towards a cav unit will gain 1" a turn on the Cav unit (3" when the Cav unit turns around), so as long as the cav unit starts 10" away, it won't be hit for three turns (this assumes the cav unit positions for a charge at least once, and doesn't simply run).

If the flanking cav unit has the WE banner that increases march blocking to 10" (or similar- does anyone else have comparable?), then the DS unit is completely finished. It will probably get sidecharged regardless of what it does, and it cannot catch the Cav unit.

Yeah, but wood elves are chumps, who cares about getting charged by them?

I guess you are right that a dedicated HC that gets astride of a DS can hold it up for a 2 or 3 rounds before getting charged, but I don't think that's a serious consideration. As I've said, the target of the DS can't get astride it without some manner of movement magic.

If I was playing wood elves and I saw a DS unit, I'd dance for joy. Wood Elves can dance around that unit all day long, kill everything else and claim 3 quarters.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

Somve very good discussion.

40kenthusiast wrote:

Antonin wrote:
A DS strategy is scary the first time it is used. After a little bit of thought, it's a weak (though not entirely useless) strategy. There are too many counters. Granted, other armies need to have some strategy, in case they suddenly are facing a DS, but that's it.

Finally, we agree. DS is an inbred strat that evolves in isolation (protected by a metagame that calls the counters "cheesy" or what have you), or a whimsical strat. It's not a serious contender.

QFT

In case anyone is interested...I am going to be starting a "best deathstar" thread.

Also, List of things that consistently beat deathstars

Wood elves.
Tomb kings.
Skaven, Clan Skryre specifically.
Empire Artillery
Dwarf Artillery
Terrain
Board edges

I'm an Empire player and I don't think the Artillery can consistently beat a DS unit.

With a typical DS unit having acces to a Ward save or Regeneration (or worse, both!) the artillery isn't going to do as much damage.

Even assuming the Empire player is never wrong at guessing range he still cannot affect Bounce ranges, Scatter or Misfire results.

Re-directing is far more consistent at beating Deat Stars.

Thought I would throw my two cents in to this.

First off, some sort of stubborn, dificult to break ability is manditory. This could be as simple as a 3+ save or regeneration but you need something.
If a thirster can break you consistenly with a rear charge you are gonna lose that unit and thats that (plenty of large flyers out there).

This strategy came about from the beastmen superherd. Back then it was downright funny with 4 casters in chaos armor in a unit that usually had no flanks.

This primarily worked because the unit was mobile. Such a unit needs to be fast and be able to get arround. Either cavalry, skirmishing, or have some sort of reliable movement spell (3 vamps with forbiden lore count for this). Without this you will never do anything usefull as oponents will throw march blockers/cheep units at you and crush you in quarters.

And finally, while the unit doesnt have to be dificult to kill with shooting it must be resistant to magic. There are so many game winning spells out there that will crush you such as curse of years. Fear magic.

Beastman superherd? Tell me more...