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Assume that I use the mind war power on an upgrade character in a mob of boyz. Do you use the unmodified leadership of the model, or does their mob rule replace that leadership value? Would it be any different for an IC? I was playing against an Ork player in the last game I played, and when I used my mind war on one of his models, he said his leadership value was 12. Is this a correct interpretation of the Ork rules? I don't have codices for armies I don't play, so I have to trust the player in these instances.

Yes it is incorrect as no Stat Value except Attacks can be above 10.

BRB pg. 6 for Stae Max and pg. 37 for the exception to attacks.

Marius Xerxes wrote:Yes it is incorrect as no Stat Value except Attacks can be above 10.

BRB pg. 6 for Stae Max and pg. 37 for the exception to attacks.

I figured that was the case but I didn't want to argue it. The leauge I'm playing in docks me so many points for taking Eldrad and wraithlords that I wasn't going to win the game even if I won the game. Good to know others agree with my point of view on it though.

He's right in that he can use the number of models in the unit instead of his normal Ld, but wrong in that this is capped at 10 so he could never be Ld12.

Are you sure? Isn't a mindwar attack against the base LD of the model.

For example an IG officer nearby wouldn't work for mindwar against a single IG target would it?

I think this deserves to be checked again.

Augustus wrote:Are you sure? Isn't a mindwar attack against the base LD of the model.

For example an IG officer nearby wouldn't work for mindwar against a single IG target would it?

I think this deserves to be checked again.

I think that the general consensus is that every single ork in a mob can substitute his Ld with the number of models in the unit due to the Mob Rule! (p.31 Ork Codex). Otherwise the reminder that a Weirdboy can do this (p.37 Ork Codex) would not make sense.
Max Ld gained from the Mob Rule! is still capped at 10 as clarified in the Ork FAQ.

p 28 Eldar dex - The Eldar player may choose any unengaged model within 18" of the Farseer and within LOS (modles in vehicles can't be target) Both players roll a d6 and add the Ld of their respective models. FOr each point the Farseer wins by the target loses a wound, with no armour saves allowed.

When reading this it says d6+Ld, it says nothing against modified Ld values. Therefore I understand that the Mob Rule, and other substitue Ld values (like DA Company Master) would be allowed against Mind War.

That said the Farseer still has a very good chance at killing the nob, or other target becuase it all is up to the dice at that point.

Casper wrote:p 28 Eldar dex - The Eldar player may choose any unengaged model within 18" of the Farseer and within LOS (modles in vehicles can't be target) Both players roll a d6 and add the Ld of their respective models. FOr each point the Farseer wins by the target loses a wound, with no armour saves allowed.

When reading this it says d6+Ld, it says nothing against modified Ld values. Therefore I understand that the Mob Rule, and other substitue Ld values (like DA Company Master) would be allowed against Mind War.

"the Ld of their respective models"

By telling you to use the model's Ld, it does say something against another model's Ld. That is, the rule is telling you not to use your DA Company Master's Ld. Mob Rule applies, but for its own reasons. In a "normal" situation, Mind War is used with the model's leadership even if Ld tests are taken based on the Ld of some other model.

Casper wrote:That said the Farseer still has a very good chance at killing the nob, or other target becuase it all is up to the dice at that point.

As nobs got 2 wound it's only 28% (5/18) chance to kill it with Mind War if it has Ld 10. Less if it got cover.
Casting Doom or Guide would be preferable in almost all situations.

deadlygopher wrote:"the Ld of their respective models"

The target models LD has to be used, Mob Rule, DA, IG or otherwise.

This has been discussed to death before. There was an even split in opinion.

G

If you look at the orks psychics powers & rules it mentions how an ork weird boys LD is affected by the Mob Up rule in reguards to psychic powers so I would have then say that this is true for the ork pain boys aswell as there is no reason why it should be different.

I was addament it used the base LD7 but after reading the ork rules I cudnt argue.

Razerous wrote:If you look at the orks psychics powers & rules it mentions how an ork weird boys LD is affected by the Mob Up rule in reguards to psychic powers so I would have then say that this is true for the ork pain boys aswell as there is no reason why it should be different.

I was addament it used the base LD7 but after reading the ork rules I cudnt argue.

Can you make that analogy? You're talking about two different things. One is a psychic test ( I'm assuming Weirdboyz use the same test, again, I don't have the other codices) and the other is roll a die and add it to your LD stat ( Which can't go over 10). Two very different things.

Psychic tests require the psyker to pass a leadership test. Ork leadership is either the model's base stat or how many models are in the mob (max 10). Because a Weirdboy has the Mob Rule SR and he is part of a 12+ mob, his leadership value is 10 with the Fearless SR. This is unlike situations that specify the opposite, such as a Sanctioned Psyker using the Heroic Senior Officer's leadership value to pass psychic tests. Based on this example, it is clear that Mob Rule alters the base stat of the model.

The point is : Is that the base LD stat of orks is affected by its mob-up rules for pretty much everything. This is protrayed by the fact it effects thier own ability to cast psyhic powers - its a direct link between orky psyhic powers & relavent rules & the eldar psyhic power mind war.

Um - what sourclams said.

The clear distinction to note is that Mob Rule is a rule in its own category. It can't be compared to "Leadership Bubble" effects like the Dark Angel chapter master or Imperial Guard Junior/Senior officers or any other unit that allows a model to use their leadership value instead of their own; a 30 strong Boyz mob is not using some other model's influence, they become leadership 10 because the game rules don't allow them to be leadership 30.

Yes one must read the wording of the separate Codeci to understand why this is different.

pg. 36 of the DA Codex says that Rites of Battle works like this. "If a Company Master is on the table then all other Dark Angels units may use his Leadership for Morale, Pinning or Leadership tests, but not Psychic Tests."

pg. 85 of the Space Marine Codex says Rites of Battle is "If Sicarius is on the table, all other Space Marine units can use his Leadership for any Morale or Pinning Tests."

pg. 35 of the IG Codex says "Any number of squads may use the Leadership of the HQ's Officer for a single Morale or Leadership test per turn rather then the usual limit of one allowed with a Vox-caster."

pg. 36 of the IG Codex says "If a Command HQ or Command Section has a vox-caster, then one squad per turn that also has a vox-caster may use the Leadership value of the Officer, no matter where they are located on the battlefield (ie, they don't have to be within 12" of the Officer as would normally be the case). You choose to use the vox-caster at any time eg, when an eligible squad is about to take a Leadership test, even if the Command unit is in reserve)."

pg. 39 of the IG Codex says "Any Imperial Guard unit within 12" of the Officer may use his Leadership when taking Morale and Leadership tests as long as he isnt in close combat, falling back or pinned."

pg. 31 of the Ork Codex says about Mob Rule "Because of this, Ork mobs may always choose to substitute the number of Orks in their mob for their normal Leadership value. If an Ork mob numbers 11 or more models, it has the Fearless special rule." The Orc FAQ then goes on to explain that this LD value is maxed at 10.

pg. 8 of the BRB say that a Leadership Test is "In the case of a Leadership test, roll 2D6 (two dice added together, as explained earlier).

pg. 50 of the BRB says a Psychic test is "To use a psychic power successfully the psyker must pass a Psychic Test, which is a normal Leadership Test. Note this must always be made on the psyker's own Leadership value. Even where Leadership tests would normally be taken on the value of another model, tests for using psychic powers are always taken on the psyker's own Leadership."

With those rules pointed out, Space Marines of all flavors do not get to the the Leadership of their Captain or Sicarius because the test for Mind War it not a Leadership Test as defined in the BRB, nor is it a Morale or Pinning test. Imperial Guard also do not get the benifit of their Commanders Leadership as Mind War is not a Morale or Leadership test as defined in the BRB.

However with the Ork Codex is clearly states that the actual stat line is (at players discretion) substituted for the number of models in the squad, max at 10 (per FAQ). Evidence for this working exactly this way is provided by the Ork Wierdboy getting to use the substituted LD value for Psychic Tests as it literally becomes his stat line. If it were not his state line, then the section on Psychic Tests would not be being adhered to as having been made on the models own Leadership as is required.

With the evidence above, I really don't see how anyone can reasonably contest how it functions in relation to the above listed Forces.

Marius Xerxes wrote:Yes one must read the wording of the separate Codeci to understand why this is different.

pg. 36 of the DA Codex says that Rites of Battle works like this. "If a Company Master is on the table then all other Dark Angels units may use his Leadership for Morale, Pinning or Leadership tests, but not Psychic Tests."

pg. 85 of the Space Marine Codex says Rites of Battle is "If Sicarius is on the table, all other Space Marine units can use his Leadership for any Morale or Pinning Tests."

pg. 35 of the IG Codex says "Any number of squads may use the Leadership of the HQ's Officer for a single Morale or Leadership test per turn rather then the usual limit of one allowed with a Vox-caster."

pg. 36 of the IG Codex says "If a Command HQ or Command Section has a vox-caster, then one squad per turn that also has a vox-caster may use the Leadership value of the Officer, no matter where they are located on the battlefield (ie, they don't have to be within 12" of the Officer as would normally be the case). You choose to use the vox-caster at any time eg, when an eligible squad is about to take a Leadership test, even if the Command unit is in reserve)."

pg. 39 of the IG Codex says "Any Imperial Guard unit within 12" of the Officer may use his Leadership when taking Morale and Leadership tests as long as he isnt in close combat, falling back or pinned."

pg. 31 of the Ork Codex says about Mob Rule "Because of this, Ork mobs may always choose to substitute the number of Orks in their mob for their normal Leadership value. If an Ork mob numbers 11 or more models, it has the Fearless special rule." The Orc FAQ then goes on to explain that this LD value is maxed at 10.

pg. 8 of the BRB say that a Leadership Test is "In the case of a Leadership test, roll 2D6 (two dice added together, as explained earlier).

pg. 50 of the BRB says a Psychic test is "To use a psychic power successfully the psyker must pass a Psychic Test, which is a normal Leadership Test. Note this must always be made on the psyker's own Leadership value. Even where Leadership tests would normally be taken on the value of another model, tests for using psychic powers are always taken on the psyker's own Leadership."

With those rules pointed out, Space Marines of all flavors do not get to the the Leadership of their Captain or Sicarius because the test for Mind War it not a Leadership Test as defined in the BRB, nor is it a Morale or Pinning test. Imperial Guard also do not get the benifit of their Commanders Leadership as Mind War is not a Morale or Leadership test as defined in the BRB.

However with the Ork Codex is clearly states that the actual stat line is (at players discretion) substituted for the number of models in the squad, max at 10 (per FAQ). Evidence for this working exactly this way is provided by the Ork Wierdboy getting to use the substituted LD value for Psychic Tests as it literally becomes his stat line. If it were not his state line, then the section on Psychic Tests would not be being adhered to as having been made on the models own Leadership as is required.

With the evidence above, I really don't see how anyone can reasonably contest how it functions in relation to the above listed Forces.

Alright, so the target would count as 10, because he *does* get to use the mob rule, as it replaces the stat, but all stats, as I know is stated in BGB, max at 10. Orks with mobs of 11 or more are not LD 11, they count as fearless, which has nothing to do with mind war. Correct?

Marius Xerxes wrote:...pg. 31 of the Ork Codex says.. "Because of this, Ork mobs may always choose to substitute the number of Orks in their mob for their normal Leadership value...

However with the Ork Codex is clearly states that the actual stat line is (at players discretion) substituted for the number of models in the squad, max at 10 (per FAQ).

That's not what it says, that's a superfelous rewording you made up leaving out "Normal Leadership". From the quote above, they can substitute the number of orks in their mob for their normal leadership value.

Marius Xerxes wrote:Evidence for this working exactly this way is provided by the Ork Wierdboy getting to use the substituted LD value for Psychic Tests as it literally becomes his stat line.

That is a completely unrelated situation, for another unit, with a different ability, that is expressly stated. This is a meaningless intent argument.

Marius Xerxes wrote:With the evidence above, I really don't see how anyone can reasonably contest how it functions in relation to the above listed Forces.

Of course not, because you are leaving out the distinction between normal and substituted leadership in the Ork Rules.

Not basing the argument on a comparisson to any of the other morale substitution issues:

Casper wrote:p 28 Eldar dex - The Eldar player may choose any unengaged model within 18" of the Farseer and within LOS (models in vehicles can't be target) Both players roll a d6 and add the Ld of their respective models.

The leadership of the respective models, normal leadership, not substituted value. The normal leadership of an Ork is still the base stat, not the substituted one, by RAW above.

The normal leadership of an Ork is determined by the number of models in his unit. The "statline" in the Codex isn't the Ork's leadership, that's the lowest number that his leadership can ever achieve. If I have an Ork unit that consists of 15 models, and you ask me for my base leadership, the correct answer is "Fearless."

It says so in my Codex. The Eldar codex doesn't have a special rule that says, "This weapon negates all other codex modifiers."

So the question is...

When you Mindwar an ork who is in a unit consisting of 11+ models, are they immune because they're fearless, or do they use Leadership 10 and have to take one anyway?

They take one at Ld10 if they are in a mob numbering ten or more. Fearless is not relevant to Mind War because nothing that Mind War does can be countered by the Fearless USR.

Fair enough, and reasonable.

The only unreasonable part is where people are posting in here somehow thinking that the general rule for a weapon somehow lets them choose to negate rules that apply to other races.

Dashofpepper wrote:Fair enough, and reasonable.

The only unreasonable part is where...

...people try to justify not using the normal leadership on an obviously written special case rule.

sourclams wrote:They take one at Ld10 if they are in a mob numbering ten or more. Fearless is not relevant to Mind War because nothing that Mind War does can be countered by the Fearless USR.

Agreed!

Augustus wrote:

Marius Xerxes wrote:...pg. 31 of the Ork Codex says.. "Because of this, Ork mobs may always choose to substitute the number of Orks in their mob for their normal Leadership value...

However with the Ork Codex is clearly states that the actual stat line is (at players discretion) substituted for the number of models in the squad, max at 10 (per FAQ).

That's not what it says, that's a superfelous rewording you made up leaving out "Normal Leadership". From the quote above, they can substitute the number of orks in their mob for their normal leadership value.

Can you please show me how I re-worded this? I took it directly from my codex, and as shown in my original post, and in the quote of it from your post.. I clearly said "normal Leadership" in the sentence.

I mean no disrespect, but perhaps you should read more thoroughly before making attacks and claiming someone is changing the wording they are quoting from a codex.

Augustus wrote: That is a completely unrelated situation, for another unit, with a different ability, that is expressly stated. This is a meaningless intent argument.

How? They get the leadership benifit due to the Mob Rule that gives them up to LD 10. Is this not the same Mob Rule everyone in the Codex gets? Do Psychic Powers not also say, like Mind War, that its the LD value from their own Leadership and not the value granted by others? Seems rather comparable to me.

Augustus wrote:Of course not, because you are leaving out the distinction between normal and substituted leadership in the Ork Rules.

I left nothing out. I quoted 100% accuratly.

pg. 31 of the Ork Codex says.. "Because of this, Ork mobs may always choose to substitute the number of Orks in their mob for their normal Leadership value...

Marius Xerxes wrote:However with the Ork Codex is clearly states that the actual stat line is (at players discretion) substituted for the number of models in the squad, max at 10 (per FAQ).

Augustus wrote:That's not what it says, that's a superfelous rewording you made up leaving out "Normal Leadership"...

Marius Xerxes wrote:Can you please show me how I re-worded this? I took it directly from my codex, and as shown in my original post, and in the quote of it from your post.. I clearly said "normal Leadership" in the sentence.

Certainly, Quote 1 of yours, the summation of the Ork rule in the first line, does not say "normal leadership". This is the basis of my case, there is a "substituted" and a "normal" leadership.

I'm not sure why the word "always" is being glossed over. "Always" means "always," not "sometimes." No exceptions. Especially not if the so-called exception doesn't specify itself AS an exception.

Augustus wrote:pg. 31 of the Ork Codex says.. "Because of this, Ork mobs may always choose to substitute the number of Orks in their mob for their normal Leadership value...

Marius Xerxes wrote:However with the Ork Codex is clearly states that the actual stat line is (at players discretion) substituted for the number of models in the squad, max at 10 (per FAQ).

Augustus wrote:That's not what it says, that's a superfelous rewording you made up leaving out "Normal Leadership"...

Marius Xerxes wrote:Can you please show me how I re-worded this? I took it directly from my codex, and as shown in my original post, and in the quote of it from your post.. I clearly said "normal Leadership" in the sentence.

Certainly, Quote 1 of yours, the summation of the Ork rule in the first line, does not say "normal leadership". This is the basis of my case, there is a "substituted" and a "normal" leadership.

And thats not the part in my post listed in quotations from the Ork Codex, is it?

I never claimed my later statement to be quoted from the Ork Codex, but merly how I interpreted said quote and rule from the codex. The fact is, as another pointed out an Orks "normal leadership" is in fact allowed to be substituted for the number of models in the squad, up to a max of 10 as per later detailed in the Ork FAQ.

My further evidence, as thus far not refuted by you when I re-stated its comparability, was how the Weirdboys work. Psychic Tests and Mind War both clearly say to use the models own Leadership when rolling for their respective tests. Now if a Weirdboy can use the Leadership he is given due to Mob Rule (RAW), then one can only further to say that due to the wording in the Ork Codex I have quoted several times, that his statline is actually showing LD 10. Otherwise they would be breaking the rules for Psychic Tests. Since Psychic Tests and Mind War both have the same qualifications, how would they count as true LD 10 in one case, but not another for the purposes of the test?

sour clams has stated the obvious most succintly. If only this was always the case here in YMDC. Hats off.

G

Marius Xerxes wrote:I never claimed my later statement to be quoted from the Ork Codex, but merly how I interpreted said quote and rule from the codex.

I understand that, and your interpretation is wrong.

Marius Xerxes wrote:My further evidence, as thus far not refuted by you when I re-stated its comparability, was how the Weirdboys work.

How weird boys work has no bearing on Orks being the target of a mindwar, apples and oranges. So it is irrelevant. Furthermore, what you are presenting that it says, "the wierdboy can use the mob rule for LD 10 psychic checks", is actually another misquote. Here is the quote.

"Remember that a Weirdboy's Leadership is affected by the Mob Rule."

It actually never even says to use that leadership for Psychic tests (a separate issue), it's not in the black and white Marius. Furthermore, it says nothing about other Orks. That's really why it is unrelated, an irrelevant part of your case.

Some fresh material.

Another poster hit on a concept I was wondering about on my ride home today in the "always" language of the mob rule that made me think about this issue further. Could this be a case of the immovable object and the unstoppable force, as in "always substitute LD" from the mob rule and "use models leadership +D6" in the Eldar dex. I was honestly thinking about the case and the always language. Which rule would take precedence? How could an Ork Model always substitute his leadership with the number of Orks in the Mob while simultaneously using his leadership of 7?

The clear answer came when I reviewed the language in both codices tonight. From the Ork dex:

P 31 "Ork Mobs may always choose to substitute the the number of Orks in their Mobs for their normal Leadership value."

and the Eldar Rule:

P 28 Mind War: "Both Players Roll a D6 and ad the leadership of their respective models."

The Ork rule applies to Mobs, the Mindwar rule to Models! For the LD to work versus Mindwar in the example in question the Mob rule would have to say a model "may always substitute the number of Orks..." and it clearly doesn't. The Mob is not making the test, the Ork is making the test, at LD 7.