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I've looked at the stats for Piranhas and Devilfishes a ton, and neither seems to be worth it. The Devilfish is extremely expensive for a transport, and a Piranha can't crank out enought fire-power for how expensive it is.

I don't think they're worth it, but do you?

The Devilfish has a very high armor value, for a transport. They can Tank Shock too and can ram other transports without much fear. They can also take a 4+ cover save wherever they are, that's major when you're carrying dudes around.

Piranhas are one of the best tank-hunting units in the Tau codex. Take 2 in a squadron, give them Fusion Blasters and Targetting Arrays, and turbo toward your opponent's vehicles. The vehicle they go after doesn't stand much of a chance after that. The only vehicles that can effectively get away from them are those of the Eldar, which are just as fast as Piranhas. Don't try these on Avatars and Monoliths. Always move when you can, you need that cover save.

Piranhas have a different problem with regards to kill points. Each one has got a set of Drones, so one Piranha squadron is going to give up 3 KP.

The Drones operate as one unit, so that's 2 KPs they're coughing up.

I was thinking a squadron of 2 Fish. That's 1 KP for the fish and 2 KP for 2 drone squads, no?

Like Nofasse said: after they detach from the piranhas, they form a single unit, no matter how many are in the squad.

Suits can usually do what Piranhas can do, and a lot safer. Fusion blasters are short range, so your Piranha is gonna have to be in the face of the tank. Your weak and expensive Piranha is most likely gonna get blown up. Also, the chance of destroying an enemy vehicle instantly is pretty darn low.

My suits can usually take out all tanks at a safe distance, and when they're done I can just jump out of LOS.

Piranhas do have the luxury of being immune to almost all small arms fire from the front. They do have their advantages.

I suppose they can carry seeker missiles. But I perfer dropping twin linked fusion suits, 53 points compared to 65 points each.

Both have their places depending on your army.

Piranhas are worth it as they are fast and provide the extra anti tank guns if needed (frees up suits for other jobs). Really good in a Mech list or a list lacking in Str 10 AP 1 guns.

Fish - I only have 1 in my army and run it with a squad of pathfinders. That way when my suits come in i can reroll scatter if I need to. Also good for grabbing FW squad and moving them around after dropping the pathfinders off. Expensive yes, but still can get the best vehicle upgrade in the game for 5 points...they get the job done.

People are overlooking the what Flecetthe Discharge's work with the Vehicle Squad Rules. When you engage a single Piranha in CC you are considered to be engaging all vehicles in the squad, and the Tau vehicle upgrades gives you a shot per vehicle.

As a example, if a squad of 30 Ork boys assaulted a 3 vehicle strong squad of Piranha's they would take 90 hits that wound on a 4+, this is huge when forming a vehicle wall.

That would be nasty and effective against orks and nids.

I've never considered using them for anything except killing vehicles.

The Bringer wrote:That would be nasty and effective against orks and nids.

I've never considered using them for anything except killing vehicles.

Once your enemies understand what it does they will either..

A) Avoid them
B) Shoot them

In both cases you are winning a tactical victory since you are forcing your enemy to do what you want. If you form a Wall with them then (and the enemy wants to go past them) they will have to assault them buying you time, With a Armor of 11 they will have to devote STR 5+ guns to destroy them keeping your other previous units alive. Its a win/win

I know you can tank shock, but I didn't know that you could engage vehicles (Piranhas in this case) in CC. And if so, would resolve the wounds from the Flechette Discharger first?

A vehicle can't initiate melee, but an infantry model can assault a vehicle. And for armies like orks and tyranids, that is one of their most effective ways of destroying vehicles.

Read the tau codex, but iirc, the FD wounds are resolved first.

That would not be that pretty for the Piranha though. No one would be stupid enough to have strength 4 orks attack a vehicle with a front armour of 11. And if he had power claws and did, your unit is a goner.

All melee attacks are against the rear armor of vehicles.

Sorry, yeah.

What would you need to roll to hit a vehicle? Or is it instant?

The Bringer wrote:Sorry, yeah.

What would you need to roll to hit a vehicle? Or is it instant?

It mentions it all in the Rulebook, but if it moved 0-6 then its a 4+ and if it moved 7+ it is a 6. The FD are resolved first and any surviving models get to hit the vehicles.

The Bringer wrote:Sorry, yeah.

What would you need to roll to hit a vehicle? Or is it instant?

If it moved fast, 6's, 4's for normal speeds and auto for immobile/not moved.

I use the 2 Piranha suicide squad at 2000 points. The fact they can move so far really makes them versatile imo.

As for Fish, I have lists where I run 4 warfish. Lots of str5 shots, 4+ cover save, AV12 on the front - what's not to like? Keep your FWs buttoned up, then unleash their rapid fire goodness on mass. Obviously depends how you play, but for an opponent to see that, 3 hammerheads and a few suits - they normally worry.

Wakinglimb wrote:

The Bringer wrote:Sorry, yeah.

What would you need to roll to hit a vehicle? Or is it instant?

If it moved fast, 6's, 4's for normal speeds and auto for immobile/not moved.

I use the 2 Piranha suicide squad at 2000 points. The fact they can move so far really makes them versatile imo.

As for Fish, I have lists where I run 4 warfish. Lots of str5 shots, 4+ cover save, AV12 on the front - what's not to like? Keep your FWs buttoned up, then unleash their rapid fire goodness on mass. Obviously depends how you play, but for an opponent to see that, 3 hammerheads and a few suits - they normally worry.

It's a 2000p list I take it?

I think this thread just justified me buying Piranhas to boost my list up to 2000 points ...and squeezing in the Flechette Dischargers.

To me, any Firewarriors not in a Devilfish are dead Firewarriors.

And I've just converted all my DF drones to Smart Missile Systems to avoid any KP issues.

I like playing a static gun line with my FWs

Also, so far the points I play with other local players is 800 to 1000 points.

orchewer wrote:To me, any Firewarriors not in a Devilfish are dead Firewarriors.

And I've just converted all my DF drones to Smart Missile Systems to avoid any KP issues.

Listen to Orchewer for he speaketh the truth. You can make foot FWs work against poor opposition but against the big boys they are a vunerable scoring unit that needs to be protected ( I have my flame retardant underwear on ).

I don't have much experience with piranah as I find them impossible to fit into a 1500pt list (and my theory hammer musings have dubbed them 'meh').

Interesting bit on the Piranhas. I've never used them before because I usually bring a team or two of broadsides to do my vehicle killing...I'll have to look into it more.

And firewarriors in devilfish...the problem there is that the devilfish is a pressurized environment and the devilfish inside have no firing ports and can't take any shots out. If you want to *USE* your firewarriors, its a two turn endeavor. Move, deploy, shoot, move them back into the devilfish next turn...don't you think you lose a lot of firepower to keep your firewarriors locked up inside your devilfish?

I guess in bigger games they would be more useful to get the vehicles dead right away, but the games I play right now are small and their aren't that many vehicles, when their are, my suits can take 'em out instantly.

One weakness of the Piranha is it's narrow profile. You need to discuss with your opponent what the front arc of this vehicle is before getting into combat. Otherwise you might end up with a front arc so narrow that it renders the better AV useless.

I have seen these used for good tank hunters, flankers, and distractors. They can force an enemy to dispatch units to deal with them, weakening their main force when you strike.

Dashofpepper wrote: If you want to *USE* your firewarriors, its a two turn endeavor. Move, deploy, shoot, move them back into the devilfish next turn...don't you think you lose a lot of firepower to keep your firewarriors locked up inside your devilfish?

You do *USE* the FWs- you use them to win the game by taking objectives. Mine only get out when there is zero retaliatory threat (or when I absolutely have to kill something and I think the extra shots will count). It's this kind of thinking that has led me to 6FWs in a pimped out fish as a staple troops choice.

For me, half of playing Tau right is preventing my things from dying. I would rather miss a turn of 30 (yes I do go slightly overboard on the Firewarriors) pulse rifles blasting away if it means those pulse rifles can live till turn 5 or 6. That's not to say I wouldn't start to game with my Firewarriors unloaded to dump a few turns of shooting onto an incoming Ork horde.

I find the Warfish compensates somewhat for the firewarriors who aren't shooting.

OddJob. wrote:

Dashofpepper wrote: If you want to *USE* your firewarriors, its a two turn endeavor. Move, deploy, shoot, move them back into the devilfish next turn...don't you think you lose a lot of firepower to keep your firewarriors locked up inside your devilfish?

You do *USE* the FWs- you use them to win the game by taking objectives. Mine only get out when there is zero retaliatory threat (or when I absolutely have to kill something and I think the extra shots will count). It's this kind of thinking that has led me to 6FWs in a pimped out fish as a staple troops choice.

In truth, I haven't had that much experience with objective grabs. I've done about three times. (I started 40k three months ago) Part of that is the roll of the die. That's all to say that I play a lot of annihilation and is not usually concerned about keeping troops alive as much as in an objecive grab.