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I got to thinking about this while reading the IG codex rumor threads and finding out that heavy weapon teams will now be multi-based/multi-wound models ala Space Marine attack bikes come May. This will make three of my existing armies that now have basing issues. (let alone when I proxy my Squats as IG) You see I never re-based my terminators in either my Chaos or my Loyalist Marine armies. As I exclusively use RT era Terminator models, the small round bases are the original bases of th figures.

Likewise my IG army (Company F, 9th Necromunda rifle regiment) is made up mostly of RT IG and the older "Imperial Army" models and every heavy weapon in the army is of the original shoulder fired sort. At this point I have no plans to mount these figures on larger bases. Why should I? I'll just place the "weapon team" models in close proximity to each other and remove one as the stands take a wound. To all but the most anal opponents, I suspect this will be acceptable. Certainly no one has griped about the old terminator models yet.

And honestly what leg do they have to stand on if they do gripe? From what I understand, the rules state that models must be based on bases of their original size or larger, but not any smaller. In the case of both my terminators and my IG heavy weapons, they are mounted on the bases originally provided with the models.

Thoughts?

TR

well, it does state they must be based on the bases provided
so i would have no problem with you using them.
if anyone does, ask them why and get them to point out where it says otherwise.

Precisly, it will depend on the wording in the codex. If it doesnt contain any special rule they can be used as they were supplied in the old days.

I have a bit of an issue, maybe. For some of my heavy weapons teams, I attached my weapon and two models to the base. For others, I just glued the weapon ot the base and take IG with small bases, and put them on the base with the weapon. I guess this technically violates the letter of the rule, but does it matter any if I treat the wounds the same all around regardless?

I understand and agree to your right to use 25mm bases on terminators... but not so much with these weapon teams. After all, if the model isn't a weapon team, then it isn't a weapon team, now is it?

lol.

For IG it's not just a problem of basing, now the 2 models would have to "count as" one model, which could be annoying. I for one will be rebasing all my missile launchers (the one HW I use with small bases).

By RAW, not only are you not required to rebase terminators that came on the 25mm bases, but you are prohibited from doing so.

In practice no one will care if you rebase, but I hardly see a reason to complain if they use the original base.

After all, that's what the rules say to do.

Well, we don't know the whole story yet. If GW made all IG weapon teams two wound, single based models, then it would be one of the few times that they've effectively eliminated old models from legal play.

There might still be separate rules for models on a single base and separately based.

It makes an interesting difference given the rules for complex units. As for myself, I'm seriously considering mounting my Imperial Guard and Tyranid armies entirely on 60mm bases.

Unless the IG codex come out with a specific exception to the general rule and state that IG HW teams MUST be mounted on a single X mm base, then we use page 3 in the rulebook.

Thrench-raider. There is no rule stating that it is ok to mount the models on their original base or larger. That is 3rd/4th edition thinking and as such must be stepped on hard. If you quote a rule, please do so correctly. "I was certain" is no excuse. When quoting a rule, you check it.

Whatever. As long as my opponent isn't obviously trying to gain some sort of advantage (mounting minotaurs on 20mm bases so they can get more frontage or somesuch nonsense) I don't give a crap. Yes, having smaller bases gives a slight advantage. No, it's not enough to comment on, other than to clear up how heavy weapon teams will work in the game we're going to play. People need to chill out about basing issues; making a big deal about it drives people away from the hobby.

Pariah Press wrote:People need to chill out about basing issues; making a big deal about it drives people away from the hobby.

QFT!

I'm not gonna rebase all of my HQ models from 3rd and 4th (everyone was mounting them on 40mm scenic bases at the time) just because 5th ed changed it's view on basing.

Well, if you are using them on illegal bases you wont be able to use them in tournaments. Sitting here and telling people who ask about it that it is ok just cause you dont want to drive people away from the hobby doesnt really help them.

Kallbrand wrote:Well, if you are using them on illegal bases you wont be able to use them in tournaments. Sitting here and telling people who ask about it that it is ok just cause you dont want to drive people away from the hobby doesnt really help them.

So what?

As far as I am concerned, playing 40K competitively is really not the best way to go.

The rules for the game are such that in a competitive setting, they don't hold up to snuff. There are far better sci fi TTG's to play if thats what you are after.

This very thread reflects that. Legal..illegal...all rubbish and hogwash. The whole thing is so subjective, its no small wonder that whenever a basing thread pops up that people just don't drop the hobby because internet fora argue about "legal", "Illegal", "I am right", "No, you are wrong" so damned incessantly.

It really is a non issue. At least to people who have something better to do with their lives than to argue about minutae of base sizes.

I agree.

There are only a few situations in which base size can make a significant difference -- for example, when deep-striking terminators -- these cases are at least partly offset by the smaller based models being more vulnerable to template weapons.

There aren't many models which have had their base sizes changed historically.

It's usually possible to make sabots if you want to put an unofficially based model in for a competition.

What about using forgeworld greater demons on
the GW monster base D":

The concept of base size changes by GW are two fold...

1. Just to change the way a mini looks / sits / feels (whatever etc)...

As they did with Epic - changed from a 5 fig square base to a 5 fig strip base...

It wasn't for a rule or codex reason - it was for aesthetics only (I required over 300 new bases to balance my forces with the new rule book - I didn't bother)

2. Rule changes are different... rumour has it that the two man HW team MUST be on a single base for a RULE reason

If the rumour IS true, then it does matter... you either play by the rules or don't bother to play

Obviously SOME rules can be bent or ignored, but some can not... SOME only apply to Comps

I aggree with both sides (I have a large number of two based ML HW teams)... BUT it IS a game after all, and all games have rules that you must use...

Everybody has a choice, but if you don't use the rules of the game, then you are only playing with toys.

That said... A game between players who use a set of rules and apply them accordingly is OK... IF two base HW teams ate counted as the "rumoured rule change" and treated as such, then no foul...

Comps ARE different... I, for one, can not stand the pettyness of scoring and evaluation, nor the self righteous legalness of IA / FW / GW products... I don't play comps and that's MY choice

Mik

If 2-man missile teams will go from two separate bases to a single group base, it is easy to make a sabot.

It's harder to go the other way and cut a group base down to individuals.

Very true Kilkrazy...

That's what I'm going to do with mine

Mik

Hellfury wrote:

Kallbrand wrote:Well, if you are using them on illegal bases you wont be able to use them in tournaments. Sitting here and telling people who ask about it that it is ok just cause you dont want to drive people away from the hobby doesnt really help them.

So what?

As far as I am concerned, playing 40K competitively is really not the best way to go.

The rules for the game are such that in a competitive setting, they don't hold up to snuff. There are far better sci fi TTG's to play if thats what you are after.

This very thread reflects that. Legal..illegal...all rubbish and hogwash. The whole thing is so subjective, its no small wonder that whenever a basing thread pops up that people just don't drop the hobby because internet fora argue about "legal", "Illegal", "I am right", "No, you are wrong" so damned incessantly.

It really is a non issue. At least to people who have something better to do with their lives than to argue about minutae of base sizes.

Well, the main point in your post is that "As far as you are concerned", but that wasnt the OPs question. He asked about the rules about it and there are very clear rules about what bases you get to use.

If you dont wanna play by the rules or use your own rules, thats just fine but thats about it. I have lots of good thing to do with my life but I prefer to play by the rules just the same.

Just to be clear what rules are you referring to?

The rumored rules, or the vague, ambiguous attempt at making a rule given on page 3 in the rulebook?

If its the rumoured rule you speak of, then I agree. But its an easy fix to slap two model on a big base, even temporarily just for a game so that the 2 wound rule for a single base can be followed.

Only because its the one time where there really is an actual rule for basing a model that isn't "put it on the base it comes with" tripe as that is very ambiguous due to GW's inconsistency in bases provided with models over the years.

There is no inconsistency with the rule on page 3. It is perfectly clear and understandable.

That was the one I meant and the only one in print at the moment. I dont see the problem with it.

Steelmage99 wrote:There is no inconsistency with the rule on page 3. It is perfectly clear and understandable.

Except that GW is NOT consistent in the bases they provide with their models. So, if for some packing reason, I get a Dread with a 40mm base, then by your "clear pg 3 rule", I can mount that dread on a 40mm base. Because that's what it came with.

GW Daemons come with round 25mm and square 25mm. So, for 40k, I'm clearly ok to mount them on the square bases, because that's what they came with. And if the model comes with no base (as has happened to me), you're fine with my dread being on no base - like most of my older metal SM dreads, which didn't come with bases.

"Mount it on the base it comes with" is not a solid rule.

Saying all infantry/jump infantry are mounted on 25mm round bases, all 2+ wound models on 40mm, and all monstrous creatures on 60mm bases, that is a solid rule. Sadly, it doesn't exist.

And for all the Tourny talk, I've been to GTs since 1998, and I've never seen or heard of a single basing issue being raised, and I'm sure that everyone hasn't been following the "base size as provided" rule. Especially the Dark Eldar player with the Galloper Gun Raiders.

For friendly play it makes no difference as long as your group is ok with your basing scheme. In a Tourny, as long as its consistent, and your opponent is ok with it, off you go.

*edited for typos

I just got this PM from a member here. (typos and poor formatting left intact for increased humor) Since he was afraid to actually post his comments to the thread it relates to, I'll post it for him.

i have some oldterminators with a 25mm base, bt i just don't use them. i just get proper ones. so i say stop whining and buy the new ones! "

I'm tempted to state the screen name of the clown who typed this, just to open him up to the scorn of his peers.

Anyway, every so often when I talk about the use of old models I get some fool who makes some sort of "buy the new models and stop using the old one" comment. It's hard for me to express my contempt for this sentiment without being disicplined by the site staff for "flaming".
"Proper ones"? Please.
Son (and I call him this because I supect he is a very young person) those ARE the proper models. I'm sorry that you have bought into the GW company line that we should all throw out our older figures and run out and buy the "cool" new stuff!

TR

LunaHound wrote:What about using forgeworld greater demons on
the GW monster base D":

i would like to know the answer to this as well, i plan on purchasing zaraknyel for a KoS. what would a base her in? her one foot on a monster base?

As someone with a hell of a lot of old guardsmen on little tiny bases- I can feel the pain- but there is a very simple solution- get a few of the large bases, paint 'em up like you would as normal and put the heavy weapons and crew on top of them... Its what i've done with all my old catachans already- and results in no probs at all

Trench-Raider wrote:It's hard for me to express my contempt for this sentiment without being disicplined by the site staff for "flaming".
"Proper ones"? Please.
Son (and I call him this because I supect he is a very young person) those ARE the proper models. I'm sorry that you have bought into the GW company line that we should all throw out our older figures and run out and buy the "cool" new stuff!

I don't think a truer thing regarding GW and their miniatures has ever been uttered.

Thing is, although you are absolutely not actually breaking any rules, as the models are indeed upon the bases supplied therewith, I can't help but feel that for the sake of a fe quid and a little bit of work, you are going to face a lot of circular, soul crushing arguements about whether or not it is to the rule....