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Flashman wrote:

DAaddict wrote:"Hunt for the fallen" update.

If the DA takes an Interrogator Chaplain, all opposing HQs are worth 2 KP or 1 objective if killed in close combat. (Assumed kept alive for later questioning) Likewise if an opposing HQ is alive at the end of the game, the opponent can claim 2 KP or 1 additional objective. If the HQ dies through fire it counts for 0 KP or Objectives.

The trouble with any Hunt the Fallen rule is that it normally seems a bit daft when you come up against Tyranids... "So Mr Broodlord, tell us everything you know about Cypher and we will ease your suffering."

I'd like to see a rule that acknowledges that the Dark Angels will bugger off if they get whiff of the Fallen elsewhere in the vicinity... though I have no idea of how you'd make it work.

Allow the DA player the option to roll to see if the game ends a turn early?

Platuan4th wrote:

Uriels_Flame wrote:Mortis Pattern Plasma Dreads?

Honestly, I'd be happy with any of the non-Rifleman Mortis options making the leap to the DA book.

Also, maybe I need more plasma for my DAs, as there seems to still be this belief that that's our thing, despite it never being mentioned in the fluff or prevalent in the artwork more than other chapters.

Watch the dreads get a gattling plasma gun @_@

It's not simply a case of "being privy to deep dark secrets". It's "being privy to deep dark secrets and being one of those who have survived facing traitors who have waged war against the Imperium for millenia".

I'm pretty sure that's something all the marine chapters do. The DAs don't exactly own the concept of "fighting the traitor legions".

ShumaGorath wrote:

It's not simply a case of "being privy to deep dark secrets". It's "being privy to deep dark secrets and being one of those who have survived facing traitors who have waged war against the Imperium for millenia".

I'm pretty sure that's something all the marine chapters do. The DAs don't exactly own the concept of "fighting the traitor legions".

While I agree with you to a certain point, other chapters usually come across traitors and try to hunt them down then and there.
The inner circle was portrayed as doing almost nothing BUT scouring the galaxy for traitors (mainly the fallen here) as far as I remember!

Now, they dont just hunt & kill them, they capture, torture and interrogate them. Thats gotta be worth something surely?!

ShumaGorath wrote:

It's not simply a case of "being privy to deep dark secrets". It's "being privy to deep dark secrets and being one of those who have survived facing traitors who have waged war against the Imperium for millenia".

I'm pretty sure that's something all the marine chapters do. The DAs don't exactly own the concept of "fighting the traitor legions".

Quite clearly it doesn't matter how I explain something; you'll shoot it down.

That said:
The Deathwing, primarily, is fielded when the Ravenwing identifies a member of the Fallen. It is the job of the Deathwing to capture--or kill--that member of the Fallen. The members of the Fallen who do not surrender themselves voluntarily are generally warlords in charge of their own veritable army of traitors and heretics. It is the job of the Deathwing to bring them out. The Inner Circle is consisted of members of the Deathwing who have actually fought and either captured or killed a member of the Fallen. It is also worth noting that the "Inner Circle" is not necessarily just consistent of Dark Angels. It also can consist of the high-ranking individuals of the various Successor Chapters of the Dark Angels.

When fielded in traditional circumstances, the Deathwing is deployed piecemeal more like the Terminators of other Chapters where they are deployed as part of a reserve supporting the rest of the fight. The Inner Circle in those cases are usually leading the standard Deathwing members.

Why would plasma even be a theme to consider? The SoB Aren't defined by flamers and melta (Even if they use a lot of it) Same with the Blood Angels.

To define the theme around ONE type of weapon is a silly endeavor to begin with...

Kanluwen wrote:It's not simply a case of "being privy to deep dark secrets". It's "being privy to deep dark secrets and being one of those who have survived facing traitors who have waged war against the Imperium for millenia".

Nah, look, I gotto side with Shummy on this one.

His BA Terminator comparison is quite apt here. I could certainly see a Deathwing Marine getting different training than other more standard 1st Company Vets (compare the 1st Company Vet speciality and the Deathwing Speciality in Deathwatch) but this 'inner circle' thing wouldn't make them 'better' by any reasonable margin, and certainly not compared to someone who is more of a veteran than they are (ie. BA's and their successors).

Would also be nice to have Land Raiders as dedicated transports instead of only heavy.....damn Blood Angels and their overpowered under-pointed codex!

And a dreadnought should be heavy, a Venerable elite...

Can't wait, it badly needs revisiting, then it will be much easier to create an army list!

It's a small distinction but deathwing are "better" in terminator armor compared to that of most chapters. They train exclusively in terminator armor, they exclusively use terminator armor, they go on missions exclusively in terminator armor, etc. Combine that individual training and experience with the knowledge gained throughout the millennia by previous deathwing members that has been passed down. As terminators they fight better than most other chapters.

How much time does a veteran of another chapter spend fighting/training as a sternguard/vanguard compared to in terminator armor?

Yes BA have probably served longer but really how much of that time was spent in TDA?

Since Deathwing is one of the perks of DA,
Its safe to say they'll get new plastic Terminator box with tons of long range weaponry?

LunaHound wrote:

Platuan4th wrote:

Uriels_Flame wrote:Mortis Pattern Plasma Dreads?

Honestly, I'd be happy with any of the non-Rifleman Mortis options making the leap to the DA book.

Also, maybe I need more plasma for my DAs, as there seems to still be this belief that that's our thing, despite it never being mentioned in the fluff or prevalent in the artwork more than other chapters.

Watch the dreads get a gattling plasma gun @_@

i could see this happening, then like idiots GW will never release the weapon for it

Probably a Terminator-mounted Plasma Cannon.

ShumaGorath wrote:Aren't the blood angels librarians supposed to be the most powerful of the loyalist legions since they're the longest lived? Hence Mephiston. The Ultramarines have tigurious, arguably one of the most powerful marine psykers in history. The GKs are all psychic and their librarians have like, nemesis doom brains. Chapters like the exorcists or the blood ravens are supposed to have exceptionally powerful librarians due to unorthodox training techniques or simple genetic preference.

I'm having a hard time really understanding why the dark angels get:

The most powerful terminators
The most powerful librarians
The most powerful and common high technology weapons
The most powerful vehicular platforms
Et cetera

Where is all this coming from? I know their fluff states that they're the best thing ever, but so does every other marine armies fluff. If there is going to be an actual boost in capability over the run of the mill regular 200 year old superhuman god man that trains 22 hours a day in game than it needs to be a bit more legit than "Well they interrogate people a lot" in my humble opinion.

The answer is very simple. Dark Angels have all that because they are the First Legion.

Most powerful and common high tech weapons - This can easily be represented by lowering the cost of these. For example flamers for free, melta for 5 and plasma for 10.

Most powerful terminators - arguably already the case they have freedom to mix and match without the high cost of customization that SW pay.

Most powerful librarians- Well easy to start, give them a Ld 10. I would argue make their psychic powers more subtle instead of blast in your face.

Most powerful vehicular platforms - Make a DA-only vehicle for them.

Dreadnoughts - as stated a mortis dread or a simple one to make every other marine howl - make it so their missile launcher has a ROF of 2. (Like it should be already for every dreadnought)

LunaHound wrote:Since Deathwing is one of the perks of DA,
Its safe to say they'll get new plastic Terminator box with tons of long range weaponry?

DA fans like myself have been clamoring for a Deathwing Terminator box for quite a while. I would love to think it's a given, but you never know.

for deathwing i would like to see more of a bonus to the shooty ones, give them assault 2 special amm, the standard ones get LC/THSS so they dont need a boost, and up the sqauds to 10, simples

thunderingjove wrote:I had a crazy idea earlier today; hear me out: the Dark Angels rumors is a misdirect to a new Codex: Space Marines, an general Astartes book that will include Ravenwing and Deathwing upgrades in the Chapter Tactics. Of course I don't know anything. What do you all think?

Hmm. Well, it'd be like how they've done Chaos since...forever. Base 4 statline, with a 3+ save, some where bathrobes, some wear taberds and don't like psychics, some are really hardcore about their Daddy's Rulebook (depending on who writes the stuff), some are into Sadomasochism, some are the 'Good guy' Iron Warriors, Some are the "good guy" Alpha Legion.

'Tactical squads' From Bloodangels, Dangels, Templars-to any kind of Space Marine should have the same base options:

Majority 4 statline, +/- 1 on it to represent their specialization, Frag + Krak grenades, Bolter, Bolt pistol, CCW, 5 bodies having the option to take 1 special weapon + combiweapon on the sargent/squad leader, 10 having access to Combat Squads, 1-2 Special weapons, 2 Heavy weapons, or 1 special and 1 heavy as it is now. Veteran squads (Vanguard, Sternguard, Sword Bretheran etc.) get +1 to either WS or BS (Vanguard getting +1 to WS, Sternguard getting +1 to BS) with base options of being F/K grenades, Bolter, Bolt pistol and Power Weapon.

Vanguard and Sternguard being the PA version of TA Elites choices, so Shooting Terminator squads get +1 to BS, Assault Terminators get +1 to WS. Non TH/SS assault TA get "Frag Launchers", and assault TA units get a similar Deepstrike/assault rule as Vanguard Vets. Shooting Terminators get a Defensive grenade launcher, that allows them to beam in (or otherwise deepstrike into enemy lines) and hold against assault longer.

Two types of Scouts: Elite Veteran Scouts (Such as Wolf Scouts/Dangel Scouts), and Noob Space Marine Scouts (Neophytes and C:SM/BA Scouts) Elite Scouts cost more, are smaller squads but get more toys, an Sniper Rifle, Bolter, Frags + Meltabombs Camo Cloak (5-10 per unit, 0-1 FOC choice). Noob SM Scouts are as C:SM/BA Scouts are now: BS3, cost less, and come in larger sizes, can have Bolt Pistol/CCW, OR Bolter/Bolt Pistol. In the case of certain chapters, can be mixed within Tactical Squads @ 5 per ever 10 Space Marines.


May cause a lot of guys to dislike me, but I think with that, it'd go a long way to representing many different chapters, whether they wear bathrobes, or tabards, or whatever. As a Chaos player...I think it's time you loyalists got on our level.

Kanluwen wrote:Grey Knights did not have Librarians prior to the current book, and the jist of them now is that they are psykers who are particularly powerful by themselves rather than in a group like the majority of the Grey Knights.

Actually Kan the very first incarnation of the Grey Knight (before the PA GKs, when they were all TDAs all the time) every termie was also a Lvl 4 Psycher and most players took the Timestop ability. I remember being on the receiving end of that squad a few times. I would say that bar none the Grey Knights have the most powerful psychers. Let me append that by saying the most powerful psycher on average, not in posession of the most powerful, single, psychic hero.

The Dark Saga wrote:

LunaHound wrote:Since Deathwing is one of the perks of DA,
Its safe to say they'll get new plastic Terminator box with tons of long range weaponry?

DA fans like myself have been clamoring for a Deathwing Terminator box for quite a while. I would love to think it's a given, but you never know.

The Darks Angels being my favorite marine chapter forever means that I'd love to as a box of tricked out termies for them as well. But I'll be honest, I'd love them to be and have a great many things.

MightyGodzilla wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Grey Knights did not have Librarians prior to the current book, and the jist of them now is that they are psykers who are particularly powerful by themselves rather than in a group like the majority of the Grey Knights.

Actually Kan the very first incarnation of the Grey Knight (before the PA GKs, when they were all TDAs all the time) every termie was also a Lvl 4 Psycher and most players took the Timestop ability. I remember being on the receiving end of that squad a few times. I would say that bar none the Grey Knights have the most powerful psychers.

The Forces of the Imperium list, right?

That was toned down a bit for Daemonhunters and the fluff altered a bit to show them as being more of a "brotherhood" of psykers rather than all being obscenely powerful psykers.
I think that worked a bit better, personally, but I won't deny that they were the top tier psykers for awhile.

Droma wrote:It's a small distinction but deathwing are "better" in terminator armor compared to that of most chapters. They train exclusively in terminator armor, they exclusively use terminator armor, they go on missions exclusively in terminator armor, etc. Combine that individual training and experience with the knowledge gained throughout the millennia by previous deathwing members that has been passed down. As terminators they fight better than most other chapters.

How much time does a veteran of another chapter spend fighting/training as a sternguard/vanguard compared to in terminator armor?

Yes BA have probably served longer but really how much of that time was spent in TDA?

I don't agree with this assessment. I'm not fully steeped in older 40k lore, but from what I've read in some of the BL books, it seems like at some point a veteran is awarded a suit of ancient TDA, and from that point on they fight in that TDA. I don't believe that they go back and forth and fight some battles in PA and others in TDA. So to say that the average DW vet has more experience fighting in TDA than a terminator from any other chapter is off base a bit.

helium42 wrote:

Droma wrote:It's a small distinction but deathwing are "better" in terminator armor compared to that of most chapters. They train exclusively in terminator armor, they exclusively use terminator armor, they go on missions exclusively in terminator armor, etc. Combine that individual training and experience with the knowledge gained throughout the millennia by previous deathwing members that has been passed down. As terminators they fight better than most other chapters.

How much time does a veteran of another chapter spend fighting/training as a sternguard/vanguard compared to in terminator armor?

Yes BA have probably served longer but really how much of that time was spent in TDA?

I don't agree with this assessment. I'm not fully steeped in older 40k lore, but from what I've read in some of the BL books, it seems like at some point a veteran is awarded a suit of ancient TDA, and from that point on they fight in that TDA. I don't believe that they go back and forth and fight some battles in PA and others in TDA.

That's partially true. What you have to realize is that the First Company(the "Veteran Company") of almost any/all Codex Chapters(barring the Space Wolves who have no veteran company and the Black Templars/Dark Angels who set veterans in a different make-up) is a mixture. They will not have the suits to outfit the entirety of the First Company with Terminator Armor--while the Deathwing does. Upon being promoted to the Deathwing, a member is given Terminator Armor. He then has it from the entirety of his service onwards.

The only time he might not deploy in it is if he is given command of another Company and it's in his best interest to deploy in standard Power Armor rather than Terminator Armor.
To be given Terminator Armor in any other Chapter requires them having suits available and you earning the right to wear it.
To be given Terminator Armor in the Dark Angels or one of their Successors means being elevated to the Deathwing or its equivalent.

So to say that the average DW vet has more experience fighting in TDA than a terminator from any other chapter is off base a bit.

The Deathwing does have more experience fighting in TDA than a Terminator from any other Chapter though.
Once they join the Deathwing, they get a suit of Terminator Armor. It's non-negotiable. They can choose not to wear it if they think the situation warrants it, but if the Deathwing is being fielded en masse they'll deploy in it.

helium42 wrote:

Droma wrote:It's a small distinction but deathwing are "better" in terminator armor compared to that of most chapters. They train exclusively in terminator armor, they exclusively use terminator armor, they go on missions exclusively in terminator armor, etc. Combine that individual training and experience with the knowledge gained throughout the millennia by previous deathwing members that has been passed down. As terminators they fight better than most other chapters.

How much time does a veteran of another chapter spend fighting/training as a sternguard/vanguard compared to in terminator armor?

Yes BA have probably served longer but really how much of that time was spent in TDA?

I don't agree with this assessment. I'm not fully steeped in older 40k lore, but from what I've read in some of the BL books, it seems like at some point a veteran is awarded a suit of ancient TDA, and from that point on they fight in that TDA. I don't believe that they go back and forth and fight some battles in PA and others in TDA. So to say that the average DW vet has more experience fighting in TDA than a terminator from any other chapter is off base a bit.

I dislike posting in threads like this because I live under the comfortable illusion that I'm not THAT much a nerd as to psyhco analyse the fictional universe we love so much.. but Ill weigh in anyway.

I agree. I'm not too big of a critic of the over the top Wardesque stuff in codex of late, because I think we all like that childish streak. When you see something like Clint Eastwoods old man cowboy shoot 5 guys on his own, even though you know its absurd, you go "YEAH!" because it's just cool, and I think you never really grow out of it.

But they could temper it a little for us older guys... I liked reading about Calgar punching a Gods head off, because it sounded like maybe just maybe he could have pulled it off. But when they get more and more leet, im just left thinking .... "really?"

In real terms, you know how kids argue on youtube about the military? Like "Oh the SAS are the best! they kick the SEALS asses!" or what have you, I cant help but feel like this type of thing is the same gak. And nobody takes those things seriously got obvious reasons. All of the Elite combat units are good. They train the hardest, they train the longest, Im sure even Sri-Lanak or Botswana or some such have elite troops, and if you come right down to it, the individuals in the units the world over are just not that different. You can only deprive a guy of sleep, march him up mountains, and make him shoot so much before he becomes really really good at it.

The point is, take a super powered veteran of 200 years service, and he is going to be able to rip gak up. He might be in the Lamenters, he might be in the Ultramarines, he might be in the Dark Angels. If you live 200 years in combat, your pretty lucky, and your very very good.

How can it really make that much of a difference? Termies of all chapters would be pretty much equal. Its not going to be like ten from the DA will always beat ten from the BA because.. well.. they both lived through 795 combat engagements, they both lived over 200 years, but one of them just had that tiny edge when it came to shooting/hiking/map reading.

helium42 wrote:

Droma wrote:It's a small distinction but deathwing are "better" in terminator armor compared to that of most chapters. They train exclusively in terminator armor, they exclusively use terminator armor, they go on missions exclusively in terminator armor, etc. Combine that individual training and experience with the knowledge gained throughout the millennia by previous deathwing members that has been passed down. As terminators they fight better than most other chapters.

How much time does a veteran of another chapter spend fighting/training as a sternguard/vanguard compared to in terminator armor?

Yes BA have probably served longer but really how much of that time was spent in TDA?

I don't agree with this assessment. I'm not fully steeped in older 40k lore, but from what I've read in some of the BL books, it seems like at some point a veteran is awarded a suit of ancient TDA, and from that point on they fight in that TDA. I don't believe that they go back and forth and fight some battles in PA and others in TDA. So to say that the average DW vet has more experience fighting in TDA than a terminator from any other chapter is off base a bit.

Actually your view of a veteran being awarded a suit of TDA and then fights in that TDA from then on fits the Dark Angel profile more than any other. Game wise, most marines vet sergeants had access to a item perk called the "Terminator Honours" which gave them a bonus. Fluff wise Terminator Honours meant that the vetern sergeant was in deed valorous enough to pilot a suit of TDA should he be called on to do so. The thing is that most chapters don't have that many suits of TDA and less when you account that a portion of a given chapters total number of TDA may be in a state of repair. So while the Dark Angels have enough TDA to field an entire first company at full strength all the time (because DAs have the ability to make their own TDA), their veterans would (like you propose) probably be awarded a suit and then fight with it exclusively from then on. Other chapters veterans would probably be spending time as sternguards, vanguards, vet sergeants as well as training/fighting in TDA. Not exclusively fighting in TDA.

MightyGodzilla wrote:

helium42 wrote:

Droma wrote:It's a small distinction but deathwing are "better" in terminator armor compared to that of most chapters. They train exclusively in terminator armor, they exclusively use terminator armor, they go on missions exclusively in terminator armor, etc. Combine that individual training and experience with the knowledge gained throughout the millennia by previous deathwing members that has been passed down. As terminators they fight better than most other chapters.

How much time does a veteran of another chapter spend fighting/training as a sternguard/vanguard compared to in terminator armor?

Yes BA have probably served longer but really how much of that time was spent in TDA?

I don't agree with this assessment. I'm not fully steeped in older 40k lore, but from what I've read in some of the BL books, it seems like at some point a veteran is awarded a suit of ancient TDA, and from that point on they fight in that TDA. I don't believe that they go back and forth and fight some battles in PA and others in TDA. So to say that the average DW vet has more experience fighting in TDA than a terminator from any other chapter is off base a bit.

Actually your view of a veteran being awarded a suit of TDA and then fights in that TDA from then on fits the Dark Angel profile more than any other. Game wise, most marines vet sergeants had access to a item perk called the "Terminator Honours" which gave them a bonus. Fluff wise Terminator Honours meant that the vetern sergeant was in deed valorous enough to pilot a suit of TDA should he be called on to do so. The thing is that most chapters don't have that many suits of TDA and less when you account that a portion of a given chapters total number of TDA may be in a state of repair. So while the Dark Angels have enough TDA to field an entire first company at full strength all the time (because DAs have the ability to make their own TDA), their veterans would (like you propose) probably be awarded a suit and then fight with it exclusively from then on. Other chapters veterans would probably be spending time as sternguards, vanguards, vet sergeants as well as training/fighting in TDA. Not exclusively fighting in TDA.

Yeah but thats my point, is it really going to make that much of a difference?

Ive we have both been in combat 1000 times, and we have both lived to be 200 years old, and ive been in combat 250 times in my TDA but you have done its 750 times, are you really going to be that much better?

After the first 40-50, I'm thinking your going to be about equal.

The difference is that my brother in law, who has been in the US Air Force, for twenty years and has seen combat isn't as combat competant/efficient as a Air Force Combat Controller or Navy Seal who's been doing his line of work for twenty years. Scale it up to 40K combat terms if you will. You're saying there's plateau that they will both eventually hit albeit the Deathwing member will get there sooner and because they've both hit this plateau they're relatively equal once there. I'm saying that plateau doesn't exist and the Deathwing are just better at what they do. Deathwing fight, every time in their TDAs every battle, using large scale TDA tactics, with very different TDA weapon loadouts than any other chapter's first company. That's why they are better, and that's why, if they get any in game bonus at all, they deserve it.

@mattyrm: That's like saying since you played 50 football matches, you are as good David Beckham (or whatever is the football legend these days).

To put it simply, the veterans of each first chapter have different specialties. It's like how the First Company of the Ultramarine's (Before they were taken out) Were very competent at fighting Tyranids. Sure everyone else might fight Tyranids once in a while, but these have trained exclusively so that they know everything about the nids to fight them that they are far better at doing it exclusively

Now replace Tyranids with Trained and fought in TDA to the point where they've done nothing but fight in such a manner and have learned all the tactics that could come about from fighting in TDA against most enemies. (Most likely infiltrated spacemarines and chaos, they are hunting the Fallen after all)

Soccer Leo, soccer.

MightyGodzilla wrote:The difference is that my brother in law, who has been in the US Air Force, for twenty years and has seen combat isn't as combat competant/efficient as a Air Force Combat Controller or Navy Seal who's been doing his line of work for twenty years. Scale it up to 40K combat terms if you will. Deathwing fight, every time in their TDAs every battle, using large scale TDA tactics, with very different TDA weapon loadouts than any other chapter's first company. That's why they are better, and that's why, if they get any in game bonus at all, they deserve it.

Pff.. come on. Thats a terrible analogy.. The Air Force!

Ok, here is a sensible analogy.

A Navy SEAL who is 35 years old and is in excellent shape, and has 20/20 vision and has been in combat 50 times and killed twenty men. He has nerves of steel, never gets nervous. Cold, calm, precise, even under fire.

Another Navy Seal who is 35 years old and is in excellent shape, and has 20/20 vision and has been in combat 35 times, and has killed 15 men. He has nerves of steel, never gets nervous. Cold, calm, precise, even under fire.

Who "wins"

The fether that gets the rub of the green.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

leohart wrote:@mattyrm: That's like saying since you played 50 football matches, you are as good David Beckham (or whatever is the football legend these days).

Also a bad one. How is that ANYTHING like what I said?!

Ive played soccer a thousand times, im nowhere near as good as Beckham. To make that accurate, you would have to say Beckham plays a clone who is identical in age and fitness but one has played a few more games than the other. Difference there? Minuscule. I'm talking about how when you get to a really really really amazing standard of something, then luck and other factors dictate the outcome.

See above for a sensible one.

It's hard to make that sort of difference on a D6 system. Deathwing Terminators are fearless and can be troops. They also can get a Terminator command squad. I think that's pretty decent as is, honestly. They just need the option for bigger squads.