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Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote: I never met anyone that horrible irl, and I suspect this is more due to the fact on the internet, a very few proportion of bad people can make a lot of noise. Or maybe I am either pretty luck or pretty blind.
Consider yourself fortunate! I have run into them in all sorts of places, whether that's forums for various web-comics or video game sites, or at places like PAX (to which I will no longer go) or ECCC (Emerald City Comic Con).
Hell, I ran a D&D game for some people in the customer-support department where I work. These are people all over the age of 21. In this D&D game, there were two NPCs. One was an Asian man (from the D&D version of Japan), the other was his daughter, who's mother was a woman of the standard European-flavor that is the bog-standard for D&D.
Mind you, the daughter-NPC was a minor, being 16. *Immediately* began the ooc-jokes about these characters, between the racial slurs, the racist jokes ("So, is she round-eyed or a slope?"), and the incessant in-character attempts to either inappropriately grope the character, (Me: "She's perfectly capable of climbing a rope...", Player: "I don't care, I put my hand on her ass anyway") or work themselves into situations where they could watch her bathe or some freakin' pervy thing.
That character's father (several, several levels above the rest of the party combined), ended up killing the lot of them, because I'd had it.
Sadly, though, this was not a particularly unusual event in that game, which I'd run for PUG groups at ECCC, PAX, RustyCon and SakuraCon in preceding years. I had (naively, as it turns out) expected better from the people I work with.
How is this the first thing people think of!? Seriously. Well... then again it's a game with an army of murder hobos....
You did not answer my question by the way. Are you in this case? When you say that this is not the same for everyone, are you referring to your own experience?
"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1
Because women won't tolerate certain kinds of men, and will label them as creeps and losers and make sure that everyone else joins them in ostracizing those men.
All women do this and no man ever does it?
Men do it to women all the time. There's a reason why Curves is women only -- some women are really uncomfortable working out and getting sweaty with men around, because some men will ogle or make rude comments. Not all men, just some, but enough that we all understand and respect that women feel the need to have women only spaces. Most people understand that a man who demands to be allowed to work out at Curves in the name of gender equality is just being a jerk.
Why this is only a problem in a mixed group? Ever heard of gay people?
I kind of think you're just being argumentative now. Like you're deliberately making an effort to not understand. Homophobia is a whole 'nother kettle of fish.
Look, here's the only point I really want to make:
In their free time, when they're just relaxing and engaging in leisure, some people prefer to hang out and socialize with members of the same sex and not in mixed company. For the most part this is because these people are not successful in the mating game, and the mating game always rears its head in mixed company. This is an issue that is way, way, way beyond the scope of wargaming. There is hardly any hobby you can name that isn't significantly gendered, and that's because of much larger social forces at work than can be tackled by a bunch of wargamers.
Wargaming is only tangentially related to this because wargaming comes out of gaming clubs, and gaming clubs basically exist because awkward teens can't get dates and because married men need hobbies to keep themselves from driving their wives crazy (and said wives are often uncomfortable with their husbands hanging out with strange women). Wargaming grew out of culture that wasn't rooted in excluding females, but rather in being excluded from mixed company. The guys who invented our hobby were the guys who don't get invited to parties because the hot chicks won't show up if they're there. There's a reason a lot of guys who play Warhammer follow a pattern of playing in high school when they can't get dates, quitting playing while in college because they need the money for dating, getting married, having kids, and then returning to the hobby as grown-ups when they finally have disposable income and free time again.
There's nothing wrong with that. It's actually just fine if some hobbies are male-dominated and some are female-dominated. They're hobbies. Their literal definition is "things people do to kill time." At the same time, some people really need safe spaces where they can socialize and get human contact and feel appreciated and valued, and some people can't get that in mixed company because they can't play the mating game. And that Warhammer happens to be a thing that many groups of guys glom onto as an excuse to socialize is neither good nor bad. It's meaningless.
If you want that behavior to end, then you're really talking about something that has nothing to do with 40k at all. You're talking about fundamentally altering the way the entire world works, on very deep level. You'd basically have to remove the sex drive from humanity. That's way beyond the scope of any discussions of gaming, and frankly I'm really tired of people using gaming as a soapbox on which to call for radical change to all of society. It's boring.
Then... then how do I use this to get away from the mating game Because apparently if I see any other human being it automatically becomes the mating game now
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/05/12 21:13:41
StarTrotter wrote: How is this the first thing people think of!? Seriously. Well... then again it's a game with an army of murder hobos....
Yeah, Reading his posts makes me wonder. Neither of the groups I have plaued RPG's with have been anything like that. One group was quite large (about 10 people with 2 women) and the other was 4 guys. Neither group was anything like that.
Sorry, when I skimmed it I missed the punctuation in your post and it made me chuckle
Then... then how do I use this to get away from the mating game Because apparently if I see any other human being it automatically becomes the mating game now
It is indeed a sad time :(
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/05/12 21:22:06
friendlycommissar wrote: The kind of jerks that dismiss other people's real feelings as "absurd insecurities" without even attempting a moment of compassion or understanding. You're basically being cruel and insensitive and very dismissive of people who aren't like you, and I don't know if you get this, but acting smug, self-righteous and intolerant doesn't make anyone want to agree with you.
Okay, I think I have to ask. Are you yourself bad at “ the mating game”? Seriously, you can tell: I just did, and nothing horrible happened. Because you seem to take the issue very personally and very passionately.
Women seem to dig me for the most part. I'm only bad at the maintaining relationships, not at the getting into them part. I find it easy to flirt with girls, and very rarely get rejected, but I have trouble making any relationship last more than a few weeks. Most women accuse me of being inscrutable and incapable of opening up, whereas I tend to find most women incredibly boring once I've had sex with them. I'm kind of jerk like that, I guess. I'm in my late 30s now, and pretty much a committed bachelor. I don't want kids, don't want to be married, and don't really care about relationships or sex as much as I did say fifteen years ago. I kind of get annoyed by this issue because I like gaming and I loathe other people's drama, and I find that mixed gaming groups tend to have way more drama than male-only groups and that drama tends to make gaming groups explode, which is why I've run so many unfinished campaigns. The drama really gets in the way of the gaming. In fact, I've been getting way more into wargaming and getting away from RPGs just because there's so much less drama with the almost entirely male wargaming scene.
But what really gets my dander up is the way people like Crimson and Silver always twist the argument around so that everyone who disagrees with them is a horrible, sexist monster. The self-righteousness really aggravates me, especially when they're being so self-righteous over something that is so bleeding trivial. Playing Warhammer is not a human right. It's a thing one does when one is hanging out with one's mates. There's nothing wrong with hanging out with one's mates. And if you somehow change the gaming scene so it's not mostly composed of guys hanging out with their mates, then it's not like guys are going to stop hanging out with their mates with no women around. They'll just being doing it somewhere else, and doing something else that women aren't interested in, until people like Crimson and Silver take issue with that as well.
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote: I never met anyone that horrible irl, and I suspect this is more due to the fact on the internet, a very few proportion of bad people can make a lot of noise. Or maybe I am either pretty luck or pretty blind.
Consider yourself fortunate! I have run into them in all sorts of places, whether that's forums for various web-comics or video game sites, or at places like PAX (to which I will no longer go) or ECCC (Emerald City Comic Con).
Hell, I ran a D&D game for some people in the customer-support department where I work. These are people all over the age of 21. In this D&D game, there were two NPCs. One was an Asian man (from the D&D version of Japan), the other was his daughter, who's mother was a woman of the standard European-flavor that is the bog-standard for D&D.
Mind you, the daughter-NPC was a minor, being 16. *Immediately* began the ooc-jokes about these characters, between the racial slurs, the racist jokes ("So, is she round-eyed or a slope?"), and the incessant in-character attempts to either inappropriately grope the character, (Me: "She's perfectly capable of climbing a rope...", Player: "I don't care, I put my hand on her ass anyway") or work themselves into situations where they could watch her bathe or some freakin' pervy thing.
That character's father (several, several levels above the rest of the party combined), ended up killing the lot of them, because I'd had it.
Sadly, though, this was not a particularly unusual event in that game, which I'd run for PUG groups at ECCC, PAX, RustyCon and SakuraCon in preceding years. I had (naively, as it turns out) expected better from the people I work with.
How is this the first thing people think of!? Seriously. Well... then again it's a game with an army of murder hobos....
I have no idea how, or why, this is the first thing some people think of. Or what makes them think that such a thing is funny. Or how anyone can be amused by such antics. I... just don't know. And the fact that, of the seven or eight times I've run that story (it's a pretty standard sweep-and-clear dungeon crawl, if you boil it down to its most basic components), elements like that have come up (not always every player, but at least one) almost every time I've run it. I don't know if it's people channeling their internet-id at the gaming table, I don't know if these people just don't have an idea where "the line" is (so they constantly cross it) when in public, or if they're just naturally racists and misogynists. Sometimes, though, the joke was made, the line was crossed, whatever, and the other players were like "seriously, dude?" to whoever said it, and it was never repeated. Which, props to those groups, and some props to the initiator, as at least they learned to keep their damn mouths shut with that kind of stuff.
There's been some interesting studies, though the results are by no means definitive, on the social culture of gaming, which suggests that the misogyny found in many sections of the gamer culture is a result of poor social skills (which can be both a cause of, and symptomatic of, poor hygiene habits) that leads to poor inter-gender relationships (poor social skills, possibly exacerbated by poor hygiene skills, causes the subject to have extremely limited, and often negative, interactions with people of the opposite gender), which then is expressed as a misogynistic world-view and associated attitude. In a sense, it's a sort of defense mechanism... but the problem here, to my way of looking at it, is that there would be no need for the defense mechanism if they'd shower frequently and not be an insufferable jerkwad to women all the damn time. Just because a woman talks to you does not mean she's interested in sleeping with you, and I find with a lot of these types that I end up interacting with, there is this kind of expectation there. How, or why, this philosophy gets formed, I haven't a clue.
Of course, I've met a few misandrists in gamer culture, too, but those have been comparatively few and far between... in fact, I can think of only two specific occasions where I met some truly man-hating gamer women, and in one case, I'm not entirely sure that she was not just taking her cos-play a little too far, and was remaining in-character just a little too much. I've not seen her since, in the years between then and now, so I dunno. The other was just... whoa. Like a living stereotype, almost, though I was assured by some mutual acquaintances that, outside of her reactionary misandry, she was a perfectly fine human being, but that was certainly never evidenced to me.
It is best to be a pessimist. You are usually right and, when you're wrong, you're pleasantly surprised.
FC: If you find your words and arguments being turned back on you, that is an issue with your words and arguments not those who use them to highlight the flaws in your thinking and/or attitude.
You will note that nowhere have I said that there is anything wrong with single sex social groupings. My comments have all been directed towards your dismissive attitude and so my posts have all just been holding a mirror to yours.
My underlying point has been that gender divides should be studied and where appropriate steps should be made to ensure that everyone feels welcome in any group they might want to join regardless of background. As you have pointed out, this will take fundemental shifts in ingrained attitudes and subconsious behaviour to achieve, but you have to start somewhere.
Wargaming is a passtime that can be considerably less toxic to female (and other groups too) gamers. I am still unsure as to your resistance on this issue. You've had some bad incidents... but it seems to me your (and your groups) methods for dealing with those situations are ultimately more at fault than the change in group make up.
SilverMK2 wrote: My underlying point has been that gender divides should be studied and where appropriate steps should be made to ensure that everyone feels welcome in any group they might want to join regardless of background. As you have pointed out, this will take fundemental shifts in ingrained attitudes and subconsious behaviour to achieve, but you have to start somewhere.
What possible reason is there to start with Warhammer? Why even bring this into a Warhammer forum? Warhammer is not even remotely an appropriate place to start. What you're talking about is a much larger issue, a very divisive and political issue that engenders a lot of conflict and heated argument. It's really not appropriate to use 40k as a platform for launching this kind of crusade.
I mean, frankly, what you are saying terrifies me. People like you sound like lunatics to me, because basically what you're talking about is engaging in a massive social engineering project to make people conform to a very narrowly defined concept of "correct behavior," which seems to be predicated on a completely lack of understanding of human nature and society. And that sounds like a disaster in the making.
Wargaming is a passtime that can be considerably less toxic to female (and other groups too) gamers. I am still unsure as to your resistance on this issue.
I am deeply suspicious of self-righteous ideologues who want to make things "better." They pretty much never do.
It doesn't help at all that you are using what sound like feminist arguments, and feminists are some of the most irrational, hate-filled people around. But again, this is why this conversation is completely inappropriate on a forum called "40k General Discussion." This really has nothing at all to do with 40k.
friendlycommissar wrote: It doesn't help at all that you are using what sound like feminist arguments, and feminists are some of the most irrational, hate-filled people around.
What? No, they are not.
"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1
What possible reason is there to start with Warhammer? Why even bring this into a Warhammer forum? Warhammer is not even remotely an appropriate place to start. What you're talking about is a much larger issue, a very divisive and political issue that engenders a lot of conflict and heated argument. It's really not appropriate to use 40k as a platform for launching this kind of crusade.
Because there are people who say crap like this:
If some girls feel excluded...well, why should anyone care?
I am deeply suspicious of self-righteous ideologues who want to make things "better." They pretty much never do.
If there were no such people, women couldn't vote and there would still be slavery.
It doesn't help at all that you are using what sound like feminist arguments, and feminists are some of the most irrational, hate-filled people around.
Really? Wanting women to be treated as people is irrational and hate-filled?
friendlycommissar wrote: The kind of jerks that dismiss other people's real feelings as "absurd insecurities" without even attempting a moment of compassion or understanding. You're basically being cruel and insensitive and very dismissive of people who aren't like you, and I don't know if you get this, but acting smug, self-righteous and intolerant doesn't make anyone want to agree with you.
Okay, I think I have to ask. Are you yourself bad at “ the mating game”? Seriously, you can tell: I just did, and nothing horrible happened. Because you seem to take the issue very personally and very passionately.
Women seem to dig me for the most part. I'm only bad at the maintaining relationships, not at the getting into them part. I find it easy to flirt with girls, and very rarely get rejected, but I have trouble making any relationship last more than a few weeks. Most women accuse me of being inscrutable and incapable of opening up, whereas I tend to find most women incredibly boring once I've had sex with them. I'm kind of jerk like that, I guess. I'm in my late 30s now, and pretty much a committed bachelor. I don't want kids, don't want to be married, and don't really care about relationships or sex as much as I did say fifteen years ago. I kind of get annoyed by this issue because I like gaming and I loathe other people's drama, and I find that mixed gaming groups tend to have way more drama than male-only groups and that drama tends to make gaming groups explode, which is why I've run so many unfinished campaigns. The drama really gets in the way of the gaming. In fact, I've been getting way more into wargaming and getting away from RPGs just because there's so much less drama with the almost entirely male wargaming scene.
But what really gets my dander up is the way people like Crimson and Silver always twist the argument around so that everyone who disagrees with them is a horrible, sexist monster. The self-righteousness really aggravates me, especially when they're being so self-righteous over something that is so bleeding trivial. Playing Warhammer is not a human right. It's a thing one does when one is hanging out with one's mates. There's nothing wrong with hanging out with one's mates. And if you somehow change the gaming scene so it's not mostly composed of guys hanging out with their mates, then it's not like guys are going to stop hanging out with their mates with no women around. They'll just being doing it somewhere else, and doing something else that women aren't interested in, until people like Crimson and Silver take issue with that as well.
I was more having fun with the fact you went on about the mating game if a girl gets involved always leading to it. That's a bunch of . The end is maturity, if you can't hold back/restrain your hormones in a group, you need to give yourself a mental slap and focus on the game. It's about having fun not about sexing it up or anything. That, or if the mating game is always what opposite sexes leads to, then what if I like both guys and girls? Am I always playing the mating game?
A friendly reminder to all those involved: Dakka has a few rules that govern your participation on this forum. Nothing constructive can come from tossing around loaded phrases, like, oh, "<broad group label> are some of the most irrational, hate-filled people around." Just to pluck an example out of the air, so to speak.
If you can't discuss this politely, you'll quickly lose your ability to discuss it at all. This is a low tolerance area. Only warning.
I'm tired of editing quotes on my phone so I will reply in a single post.
You may note that we are on a wargaming forum discussing gender in wargaming. That might give you an indication as to why we are discussing the gender divide in wargaming. Though if that is not clear to you, let me just restate that: you are in a thread on a wargaming forum taking about gender in wargaming, so people will be talking about gender in wargaming.
As to social engineering... on one level, certainly any level of understanding of human nature and social interaction gives people the ability to shape the evolution of that nature and society. It is no different from the tens of thousands of years of social engineering that have occured every time more than two people have existed together in human history.
As to making people conform to "correct behaviour"... well... there are certainly advantages to keeping slaves and treating women as baby factories. Hell, why not rebuild the spartan ethos of male homosexuality in a soldier elite caste who rule the nation? After all, correct behaviour is in the eye of the beholder, not an absolute.
Besides, other than broad trends, it is exceptionally difficult to perform social engineering towards a vague goal of "niceness" to all people. Ever tried herding cats? It is however significantly easier to work through fear and prejudice to enforce outcomes.
All of the above should be taken as being from someone with only a passing interest in sociology and related social sciences (I am more into science-science ).
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/05/12 22:22:51
SilverMK2 wrote: My underlying point has been that gender divides should be studied and where appropriate steps should be made to ensure that everyone feels welcome in any group they might want to join regardless of background. As you have pointed out, this will take fundemental shifts in ingrained attitudes and subconsious behaviour to achieve, but you have to start somewhere.
What possible reason is there to start with Warhammer? Why even bring this into a Warhammer forum? Warhammer is not even remotely an appropriate place to start. What you're talking about is a much larger issue, a very divisive and political issue that engenders a lot of conflict and heated argument. It's really not appropriate to use 40k as a platform for launching this kind of crusade.
I mean, frankly, what you are saying terrifies me. People like you sound like lunatics to me, because basically what you're talking about is engaging in a massive social engineering project to make people conform to a very narrowly defined concept of "correct behavior," which seems to be predicated on a completely lack of understanding of human nature and society. And that sounds like a disaster in the making.
Wargaming is a passtime that can be considerably less toxic to female (and other groups too) gamers. I am still unsure as to your resistance on this issue.
I am deeply suspicious of self-righteous ideologues who want to make things "better." They pretty much never do.
It doesn't help at all that you are using what sound like feminist arguments, and feminists are some of the most irrational, hate-filled people around. But again, this is why this conversation is completely inappropriate on a forum called "40k General Discussion." This really has nothing at all to do with 40k.
Indeed, it didn't start in 40k though. It's not going to just start in 40k and even if it did, why would it not be appropriate? What is bad about making a community more accepting of others and inviting? Heck, it just increases the number of possible players meaning more money!
So you would have been terrified of blacks and muslims or those jewish people being integrated into society without being hated on or you don't want to be around gays, bis, etc because eeeew? Here's the thing, there has always been a socially engineered restriction on the world. Guys can't like girly things often times, girls can't like guy things, blacks are unreliable, and apparently all gays want to feth you in the ass just because they are a guy and you are a guy. The only thing to be afraid of is change.
As per feminists, mate feminists aren't all bad. Hell, the first ones made there be more equality. Yes, there are the bad apples. The ones that claim to want to subject males, enslave them, chop off their dicks, etc. but that's like saying the smelly guy that never showers should ruin how you look at an entire group of people. My cart of apples is bad because there's one bad apple out of 50!
Question unrelated.. do you think that girls are supposed to get some special treatment? Not saying that you implied something like that, mind you. If a guy feels excluded, he has to get over with it. If a girl does, isn't it only natural and expected of her to just get over it just like a guy would?
I'm saying unrelated because I'm kind of done arguing in this thread as I've already stated my point regarding the differences and problems of two gender interactions in this hobby given the social awkwardness of some people that want to feel comfortable in it without censoring themselves because someone brought a girl that is, common (mis/)conception, most likely to not accept their behaviour or even appearance in a place other than their house where they could be accepted the way they are. So I'm just going to pop in and ask random questions whenever something interesting appears.
Question unrelated.. do you think that girls are supposed to get some special treatment? Not saying that you implied something like that, mind you. If a guy feels excluded, he has to get over with it. If a girl does, isn't it only natural and expected of her to just get over it just like a guy would?
I'm saying unrelated because I'm kind of done arguing in this thread as I've already stated my point regarding the differences and problems of two gender interactions in this hobby given the social awkwardness of some people that want to feel comfortable in it without censoring themselves because someone brought a girl that is, common (mis/)conception, most likely to not accept their behaviour or even appearance in a place other than their house where they could be accepted the way they are. So I'm just going to pop in and ask random questions whenever something interesting appears.
The best way to treat anybody is as an equal, a human being. That's the entire point of what Melissia said there.
Question unrelated.. do you think that girls are supposed to get some special treatment?
Not special treatment, not in either direction!
Oooooo bloody chaos lord. I like where this is going! Hmm... what type of spikes? Just a standard model or is it custom made with some new ones? (Is it wrong if I almost wish to ask for a picture just to see how spiky it is? Then gain I had a spike challenge with a DE friend of mine. I won with a story of building a forgefiend autocannon. Tried to push the gun in.... so many spikes darting through skin to draw blood. I still shudder remembering it. But I suppose such is necessary to put a daemon in it )
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/05/12 22:35:05
Janthkin wrote: A friendly reminder to all those involved: Dakka has a few rules that govern your participation on this forum. Nothing constructive can come from tossing around loaded phrases, like, oh, "<broad group label> are some of the most irrational, hate-filled people around." Just to pluck an example out of the air, so to speak.
If you can't discuss this politely, you'll quickly lose your ability to discuss it at all. This is a low tolerance area. Only warning.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/05/12 22:52:42
Oooooo bloody chaos lord. I like where this is going! Hmm... what type of spikes? Just a standard model or is it custom made with some new ones? (Is it wrong if I almost wish to ask for a picture just to see how spiky it is? Then gain I had a spike challenge with a DE friend of mine. I won with a story of building a forgefiend autocannon. Tried to push the gun in.... so many spikes darting through skin to draw blood. I still shudder remembering it. But I suppose such is necessary to put a daemon in it )
He is not so spiky in himself, he just draws so much blood because they are mostly pointing upwards, waiting to stab an overeager player wanting to begin their Movement phase or remove a casualty.
Brutal stuff.
(Sorry for OT!)
I should think of a new signature... In the meantime, have a
Question unrelated.. do you think that girls are supposed to get some special treatment? Not saying that you implied something like that, mind you. If a guy feels excluded, he has to get over with it. If a girl does, isn't it only natural and expected of her to just get over it just like a guy would?
Huh. But then again....
I'm saying unrelated because I'm kind of done arguing in this thread as I've already stated my point regarding the differences and problems of two gender interactions in this hobby given the social awkwardness of some people that want to feel comfortable in it without censoring themselves because someone brought a girl that is, common (mis/)conception, most likely to not accept their behaviour or even appearance in a place other than their house where they could be accepted the way they are. So I'm just going to pop in and ask random questions whenever something interesting appears.
Who's asking for special treatment, now? If those socially awkward guys you just mentioned are feeling excluded by the inclusion of a female into the gaming group, aren't they suppose to just get over it?
Yes, people tend to behave differently, depending on the setting and/or people they are interacting with. But if it takes the inclusion of a female into the gaming circle to cut down on the random (male) strangers farting & telling "humorous" sex jokes, then we really NEED more females gaming, because it is clear that some people don't otherwise realize that some behavior just isn't acceptable amongst strangers or casual acquaintances otherwise.
People are responsible for their own behavior. If (generic) you behave in a manner that is exclusionary of half the population, the problem isn't the females.
Klerych wrote: If a guy feels excluded, he has to get over with it.
Depends on why he feels excluded. If he feels excluded because he cannot make racist comment and annoy everybody, well, he is excluded, and rightly so. If he feels excluded because he is gay and everyone is making fun of that, then no, he does not have to get over it, people should stop making him feel excluded. And there are some middle ground.
"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1
StarTrotter wrote: I was more having fun with the fact you went on about the mating game if a girl gets involved always leading to it. That's a bunch of . The end is maturity, if you can't hold back/restrain your hormones in a group, you need to give yourself a mental slap and focus on the game. It's about having fun not about sexing it up or anything.
At some point you just have to recognize that what you are demanding is not possible. I mean, corporations -- even the military, in times of war! -- cannot keep men and women from fraternizing, and you somehow think that you can get people to stop fraternizing while engaging in leisurely pursuits? Can you really not see how completely ridiculous a suggestion that is? A situation where men and women are relaxing, sharing good times and mutual interests, and steadfastly remaining utterly chaste and not ever thinking with their loins? For real?
Indeed, it didn't start in 40k though. It's not going to just start in 40k and even if it did, why would it not be appropriate? What is bad about making a community more accepting of others and inviting? Heck, it just increases the number of possible players meaning more money!
Look, you're not talking about making a community more accepting of others and inviting in general. You're talking about making a community more accepting of others and inviting to specific cadre of people that will drive off an existing cadre of people already in the community.
So you would have been terrified of blacks and muslims or those jewish people being integrated into society without being hated on or you don't want to be around gays, bis, etc because eeeew? Here's the thing, there has always been a socially engineered restriction on the world. Guys can't like girly things often times, girls can't like guy things, blacks are unreliable, and apparently all gays want to feth you in the ass just because they are a guy and you are a guy. The only thing to be afraid of is change.
Okay, see, you're being super obnoxious. Stop with the allusions to racism and anti-semitism and to horrible social injustices. It's so offensive and insulting, and while it doesn't violate the rules of the forum, it really should. Because I think you know just how vicious and nasty you're being, and you're hiding behind this social justice nonsense, but it's just rude. Stop accusing me of being a racist out of the corner of your mouth.
I haven't even once actually said that women shouldn't be allowed to play Warhammer, or that its okay for guys to exclude women. All I've said is that groups of awkward guys often exclude women because they are themselves excluded by women, and that in the grand scheme of things this is completely trivial. Changing the status quo would require either completely changing society or by completely changing Warhammer. I just don't see any reason to do that. It really doesn't matter if 1% or 50% of Warhammer players are women.
As per feminists, mate feminists aren't all bad. Hell, the first ones made there be more equality. Yes, there are the bad apples. The ones that claim to want to subject males, enslave them, chop off their dicks, etc. but that's like saying the smelly guy that never showers should ruin how you look at an entire group of people. My cart of apples is bad because there's one bad apple out of 50!
I've never met any feminist like you are describing. I find the kind of feminists I'm talking to right now to be annoying enough to dismiss feminism, especially modern internet feminism, which is pretty much 100% self-righteousness and self-indulgence. People like Crimson up there comparing themselves to abolitionists and suffragettes as they fight the persistent social injustice of insecure dweebs having a hobby, or you with this nonsense about "terrified of blacks and muslims or those jewish people being integrated into society."
I cannot eyeroll hard enough to express how exasperating I find you people.
At some point you just have to recognize that what you are demanding is not possible. I mean, corporations -- even the military, in times of war! -- cannot keep men and women from fraternizing, and you somehow think that you can get people to stop fraternizing while engaging in leisurely pursuits? Can you really not see how completely ridiculous a suggestion that is? A situation where men and women are relaxing, sharing good times and mutual interests, and steadfastly remaining utterly chaste and not ever thinking with their loins? For real?
So you do the same with gay men then?
I should think of a new signature... In the meantime, have a
At some point you just have to recognize that what you are demanding is not possible. I mean, corporations -- even the military, in times of war! -- cannot keep men and women from fraternizing, and you somehow think that you can get people to stop fraternizing while engaging in leisurely pursuits? Can you really not see how completely ridiculous a suggestion that is? A situation where men and women are relaxing, sharing good times and mutual interests, and steadfastly remaining utterly chaste and not ever thinking with their loins? For real?
So you do the same with gay men then?
What are you asking? I can't parse this question at all. Do the same with? I don't understand this at all.
I was making an observation, which is that if the nobody can keep men and women from fraternizing. At no point did I say anything about doing anything to anyone.
friendlycommissar wrote: I've never met any feminist like you are describing. I find the kind of feminists I'm talking to right now to be annoying enough to dismiss feminism, especially modern internet feminism, which is pretty much 100% self-righteousness and self-indulgence. People like Crimson up there comparing themselves to abolitionists and suffragettes as they fight the persistent social injustice of insecure dweebs having a hobby, or you with this nonsense about "terrified of blacks and muslims or those jewish people being integrated into society."
Well, to be honest, suffragetttes were feminists themselves. And as an insecure dweeb myself, I do not really understand what you are trying to protect me from.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
friendlycommissar wrote: I was making an observation, which is that if the nobody can keep men and women from fraternizing.
I think the term you are looking for, actually, is fething. Or at the very least flirting. But fraternizing means brotherly relations, which, unless you are a Lannister…
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/05/12 23:24:12
"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1
StarTrotter wrote: I was more having fun with the fact you went on about the mating game if a girl gets involved always leading to it. That's a bunch of . The end is maturity, if you can't hold back/restrain your hormones in a group, you need to give yourself a mental slap and focus on the game. It's about having fun not about sexing it up or anything.
At some point you just have to recognize that what you are demanding is not possible. I mean, corporations -- even the military, in times of war! -- cannot keep men and women from fraternizing, and you somehow think that you can get people to stop fraternizing while engaging in leisurely pursuits? Can you really not see how completely ridiculous a suggestion that is? A situation where men and women are relaxing, sharing good times and mutual interests, and steadfastly remaining utterly chaste and not ever thinking with their loins? For real?
Indeed, it didn't start in 40k though. It's not going to just start in 40k and even if it did, why would it not be appropriate? What is bad about making a community more accepting of others and inviting? Heck, it just increases the number of possible players meaning more money!
Look, you're not talking about making a community more accepting of others and inviting in general. You're talking about making a community more accepting of others and inviting to specific cadre of people that will drive off an existing cadre of people already in the community.
So you would have been terrified of blacks and muslims or those jewish people being integrated into society without being hated on or you don't want to be around gays, bis, etc because eeeew? Here's the thing, there has always been a socially engineered restriction on the world. Guys can't like girly things often times, girls can't like guy things, blacks are unreliable, and apparently all gays want to feth you in the ass just because they are a guy and you are a guy. The only thing to be afraid of is change.
Okay, see, you're being super obnoxious. Stop with the allusions to racism and anti-semitism and to horrible social injustices. It's so offensive and insulting, and while it doesn't violate the rules of the forum, it really should. Because I think you know just how vicious and nasty you're being, and you're hiding behind this social justice nonsense, but it's just rude. Stop accusing me of being a racist out of the corner of your mouth.
I haven't even once actually said that women shouldn't be allowed to play Warhammer, or that its okay for guys to exclude women. All I've said is that groups of awkward guys often exclude women because they are themselves excluded by women, and that in the grand scheme of things this is completely trivial. Changing the status quo would require either completely changing society or by completely changing Warhammer. I just don't see any reason to do that. It really doesn't matter if 1% or 50% of Warhammer players are women.
As per feminists, mate feminists aren't all bad. Hell, the first ones made there be more equality. Yes, there are the bad apples. The ones that claim to want to subject males, enslave them, chop off their dicks, etc. but that's like saying the smelly guy that never showers should ruin how you look at an entire group of people. My cart of apples is bad because there's one bad apple out of 50!
I've never met any feminist like you are describing. I find the kind of feminists I'm talking to right now to be annoying enough to dismiss feminism, especially modern internet feminism, which is pretty much 100% self-righteousness and self-indulgence. People like Crimson up there comparing themselves to abolitionists and suffragettes as they fight the persistent social injustice of insecure dweebs having a hobby, or you with this nonsense about "terrified of blacks and muslims or those jewish people being integrated into society."
I cannot eyeroll hard enough to express how exasperating I find you people.
Forgive me butt I'm going to not be responding to you in the well formatted divisions you have. Sadly, it's already a bit too big as is so spoilers it shall go! I'll put a number next to the segments to give some vague form of division.
1. What I ask is, how is this any different than when I'm with a group of guys? Here's the thing, I like guys. I also like girls. And guess what? I can keep my pants on at all times. So it's fine if gay guys start fething around in a group but not if its girls?
2. No, here's the thing, what is this cadre of people that would be driven off. People that love to shout about rape and make jokes about it? is it so sorrowful for people to just learn that what they say has repercussions?
3. And no, I wasn't meaning that. I wasn't saying hey you are a racist. I meant one thing and one thing alone... you were speaking of fear of this "social engineering". My point is, it's always been that way. Go back in time and try to be gay, I beg you to try to. Go back and try to live life as a black man without being slurred and treated like gak. Do we think its horrid? Yes. But in those times that was the socially acceptable thing to do. What is acceptable and not acceptable in society has always been made up. Go back in time and monogamy was a-okay but now it would be decried, marry an 11 year old in certain places won't get an eye bat but here people will flip tables. That's what I was talking about.
As per exclusion, I just don't think it's great that we have to make the boundary at who's a guy and who's a girl. If somebody likes it, they shouldn't have to not like it just because the fanbase is immature/jerky/
Plus, reinforcing people to take showers is a good thing
4. And welcome to the complexities of life. Not everybody is good and not everybody is bad. Plus I'm not a feminist. And the terrified of blacks was more to point out that things that are acceptable and unacceptable always exist and people like Silver aren't creating it to make you suffer or some nonsense. It's ALWAYS been there. And I assume you are talking about the ones that are like men should die/only men are rapers/all men are rapists. yeah those people are but that just comes with people being people. Oh, and you should look up social justice warriors on tumblr they are hilarious to read (I'm still sad to see my favorite one go. Turns out it was a troll but darn they spoke like the best of them. It was my place to go to for ludicrous over the top nonsense)
Ah yes, thing is, you are correct it's not the worst thing in the world. It doesn't even come close but this is a forum about wargames on a general asking why not many play 40k which can be observed in general for wargames at large.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/05/12 23:38:44
StarTrotter wrote: Plus, reinforcing people to take showers is a good thing
You do not need women to play the game for that. You just need to, you know, tell them. I mentioned it in my very first post on this topic IIRC, but nobody seemed to notice.
"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1
Look, you're not talking about making a community more accepting of others and inviting in general. You're talking about making a community more accepting of others and inviting to specific cadre of people that will drive off an existing cadre of people already in the community.
If there indeed are male players that would be driven off by inclusion of women (which I greatly doubt), then good riddance!
I've never met any feminist like you are describing. I find the kind of feminists I'm talking to right now to be annoying enough to dismiss feminism, especially modern internet feminism, which is pretty much 100% self-righteousness and self-indulgence. People like Crimson up there comparing themselves to abolitionists and suffragettes as they fight the persistent social injustice of insecure dweebs having a hobby, or you with this nonsense about "terrified of blacks and muslims or those jewish people being integrated into society."
I cannot eyeroll hard enough to express how exasperating I find you people.
Yes, there indeed have been, and still is, much greater injustices in the world than women being excluded from 40K. This is obvious. But this being a 40K forum so we talk about wargaming related matters here. (However, the exact same 'boys-club' attitude you embody influences much more serious issues too.) And it is indeed a bit sad how you fail to see how racism and sexism are really quite similar, and while you may balk at the former you happily make excuses for the latter.
At some point you just have to recognize that what you are demanding is not possible. I mean, corporations -- even the military, in times of war! -- cannot keep men and women from fraternizing, and you somehow think that you can get people to stop fraternizing while engaging in leisurely pursuits? Can you really not see how completely ridiculous a suggestion that is? A situation where men and women are relaxing, sharing good times and mutual interests, and steadfastly remaining utterly chaste and not ever thinking with their loins? For real?
So you do the same with gay men then?
What are you asking? I can't parse this question at all. Do the same with? I don't understand this at all.
I was making an observation, which is that if the nobody can keep men and women from fraternizing. At no point did I say anything about doing anything to anyone.
Your question makes zero sense.
The point being that the same can go to gays liking individuals of the same sex. Hell, for all you know one of the guys might be gay or bi. You don't know until you drag it out of them anyways (that or they make it obvious). So the question becomes, if you can't have a girl join a group because it'll just become the mating game, what about a gay or bi guy?
StarTrotter wrote: Plus, reinforcing people to take showers is a good thing
You do not need women to play the game for that. You just need to, you know, tell them. I mentioned it in my very first post on this topic IIRC, but nobody seemed to notice.
That was aimed at him claiming that making the place more inviting to women would force out the current group. Thing is, the current stereotype is a fat guy with no social skills, neckbeard, and really smelly as though the solution to bring in girls would either force these individuals out or teach them to shower. My question was, how is that anything but good
In reality, that's just something that needs improving in general. I'd certainly go to far more hobby shops if people didn't stink as much
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/05/12 23:33:13
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. The end is maturity, if you can't hold back/restrain your hormones in a group, you need to give yourself a mental slap and focus on the game. It's about having fun not about sexing it up or anything. That, or if the mating game is always what opposite sexes leads to, then what if I like both guys and girls? Am I always playing the mating game? 
