Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I've been looking over guard army lists ; Space Marine Army lists : Tyranid Army list. Here's the thing almost all lists revolve around expensive real world monies.

For instances lets use the Ork Nob Biker army 1750 points ; not counting conversion costs how much does it "cost" to play this army.

2 Nob Biker squads of 10 models plus a Warboss; lets not use Forgeworld lets say you convert.

35 Dollars for 3 from Games Workshop ; at its base to take these ten models without conversions is 210 dollars; now fortunately GW provided a good deal with Ork Mobs. But at a minimum I would price a 1750 point Nob Army at around 465 dollars. 2 Squads of 30 Orks , 2 Squads of Nobs, and some Ork Shootas. This isnt counting Killa Kans.


Let's look at Space Marine competitive lists. The Most common generally seems to be around here Vulcan Hestaan with MultiMelta Dreads ; Sternguard etc.. Each army varies but let's just say you want to have a 10 man Sternguard Squad w/ Combimeltas. Now you have to direct order that model from GW and its 10 bucks a model. Unless you want to buy 10 boxes of a Space Marine Captain for the combimelta the only place to get it is the Melta Sternguard model.

However if you want to be "competitive" and have a 10 man Sternguard drop list with Vulcan Hestaan it at is least is going to run you minimum 200 dollars and upwards of 500 dollars?


So what is my point , Well the Vendetta for one; or Valkyrie yes there will be a kit for a Valkyrie however the more you have the better its going to be at 130 points for 3 twinlinked Lascannons fielding 9 or even just six gives you 18 twinlinked lascannons for a meer 780 points you can have 6 or at minimum 300 dollars as their 50 dollars a piece.


This just increasing exponentially if you look at each army its "power" unit is ultimately probably its most expensive.


So do you agree or disagree with the statement proposed he who has the most $$ wins.

The nob biker list blind sided GW, they had no intentions of making nobs that good. So if you are implying that GW gives the most expensive models the best rules you are mistaken.


As for combi-meltas you can pick them up for a aroud 1.50 on ebay.


The Green Tide is a very effective list and 90% of it can be put together from AOBR orks.

GW has a history of trying to make better units more expensive, but generally they are nubs when it comes to what is good and what is not. Prices now try to keep similar prices for similar models: heavy support tanks are generally $50, while making basic boxed sets cheaper (especially now in fantasy).

I would say its more that whoever has more money into an army has more fun with it for a longer time (as they don't play with the same old tricks)

However generally the best armies are what have lots of cheap but effective units. The mass chimera and infantry guard army would run you over $700 for 1500pts!!

Tao wrote:
However generally the best armies are what have lots of cheap but effective units. The mass chimera and infantry guard army would run you over $700 for 1500pts!!

And the best part is, by the time you finished assembling it , you wont even remember the pain to assemble them + the price it cost!

The smell of the glue would no doubt have wiped out 100% of the brain cells.

Tao wrote:GW has a history of trying to make better units more expensive, but generally they are nubs when it comes to what is good and what is not. Prices now try to keep similar prices for similar models: heavy support tanks are generally $50, while making basic boxed sets cheaper (especially now in fantasy).

I would say its more that whoever has more money into an army has more fun with it for a longer time (as they don't play with the same old tricks)

However generally the best armies are what have lots of cheap but effective units. The mass chimera and infantry guard army would run you over $700 for 1500pts!!

Lootas. Definitely. You have to deal with a random number of shots, but the shots you do get are S7, and they never have to worry about the "gets hot" rule. And you also get burna parts, so after buying two boxes of Lootas, you can get a box of Boyz and make them into Burna boyz. If you repeat this whole procedure twice, you also end up with the parts to equip another box of boyz with rokkit launchers, which gets you plastic Tankbustas. That's some serious Orky firepower. Also, you've got 20 shootas left over, so you can equip ten Nobz with twin-linked shootas with a minimal amount of cutting and no greenstuff work. I keep saying I'm done with GW, but they drag me back in!

I included this post from another thread to illustrate that in some ways, you can use the massive options provided in the boxed sets to economize. Also, between the parts I've got left over from a Stompa and a Battlewagon, and some wheels from an artillery gun I bought to use for the belly gun for the Stompa, I have enough parts for a couple of Trukks. I don't know how many extras the Space Marines, Eldar or Tyranids have, but this is just my example.

Luna I will remember the pain from the two 1 war walkers i put together. Every time I look at those walker i want smash them. When left this game at rules update two troops were more costly and vehicles points wise so alot of armies were 3/4 troops. A marine was squad was 300 points plus weaspons. Now the point values are lower for troops and vehicles. I have noticed now that a lot of armies have half or more in vehicles. A rhino was only $15 then. The heavy ranges have shortened alot so every one has get a lot closer now. You can't sit and shoot at your opponent from sixty inches anymore.

I meant second edtion rules.

Hollismason wrote: I've been looking over guard army lists ; Space Marine Army lists : Tyranid Army list. Here's the thing almost all lists revolve around expensive real world monies.

Regular 40K? No. You can convert a lot of what you said from plastic and it's easy. There are a few gaps (Hydras and Griffons being two good recent examples), but for the most part Wallet Hammer $40,000 only comes into play in Apoc (or in Reaver-themed Gladiator lists). This is one of the many reasons why Apoc needs to be managed as a themed story-based game with formal lists rather than a 'bring whatever' game where people show up and (essentially) throw their wallets on the table.

I'm one of those sorts of people who can (or could - I just bought a house so that may have to stop for a while) put just about anything on the table. Girls go out and buy a new dress every time they go out, whereas I show up with a new army at every event we play, it's that sort of thing. I just received my 9th and 10th Super Heavy Tanks in the mail today, and coming with them was a group of 6 Valkyries and Sentinels number 23, 24 and 25. I have a gakload of stuff, and if I wanted to play Wallet Hammer $40,000 and just brow beat my friends with just how much crap I've got, I could.

But why would I do that? Where's the fun?

A lot of my best models, and the models I like the most (like my Lost & The Damned) are actually some of the cheapest models I have because I've created and converted them myself. I've put the effort into them to make them as different and as unique as I can. I can throw 7 Baneblades or 30 Russes at my opponents, but I'd rather throw the 90 completely unique and different mutants I own, or the Deathwatch Squads where every member has a different detail or chapter icon, or the Daemon Prince I've spent the past 4 years developing an ongoing backstory for. That's far more interesting for me than simply beating people to death with my crazy spending habits.

It sucks major Jervis balls to play this hobby with little or no income - sigh, so many idea, so little cash

GW has a strong interest in making money, so there is something to be said about outspending your opponents. It does feed their business plan.
Sternguard, can be built from plastic marine kits since one guy in power armor is the same as another and there are plenty of fiddly bits on the sprues to give each marine some individuality. There's no *need* do drop the $300+ for 6 boxes of the same 5 models, drop pods and a lackluster character sculpt. (although I do like the look of the Deathwatch kill team upgrades, they only save $30)

The Valkyrie/Vendetta is a shiny new toy, but I think it blows. Its huge footprint, sihilouette, and its immense height make it a prime target where the sentinel does a similar strike role for less. Strategies vary, so YMMV.

IMHO: Ork biker nob mobs did *not* blindside GW simply because the statement presumes some guided playtest and balance strategy that really can't be confirmed.

Where money has an impact, money does not equal victory. The most point and click army can still be beaten by a better player or an unlucky HTH round.
If money = victory, then why do Witch Hunters and Dark Eldar have such a hard time of it? Ogryn should be a unit to fear based on cost.

Money lets you buy neat toys, but not a victory.

Gutteridge wrote:It sucks major Jervis balls to play this hobby with little or no income - sigh, so many idea, so little cash

I think that is true of most Hobbies. Look at what people spend on Magic the Gathering cards to remain competative?
Many of my friends play Golf and the cost of a new club is about the same as buying an army.

We live in a materialistic world. People are always going to want more stuff.

I does suck to play this game with little money. I have three armies from the old days so they are mostly troops. My nephew is married and stuck with his little marine army at less then 700 points. I had to give him a present of tactical squad and rhino from boxed set. The box was $90 I kept the assualt and scouts. I helped my Eldar army with an autarch, two war walkers, three falcon, one wave serpent 10 guardians, one platform weapon,and five extra Dire Avengers and Avatar. I have spent over $300 already. The last two months my nephew and I have working on the models. We only had one game before my Eldar upgades and he killed me baddd. I told him we need to get some practice with 5th editions but see my new Warhost now and it makes him nervous.

There are a lot of factors to consider. List, Luck, and Skill. Fortunately, only one of those are dependent on how much money you have. In addition, it also depends on how much time you have (assuming you want to use assembled/painted models).

I agree that good tactics can beat big tanks. Having good dice roll doesn't hurt either. What good are fancy toys if you don't know how to use them. A lot of hobbies can get expensive.

I remember ome guy liked using obliterators, but he didn't like their cost, so he made his own. I saw parts from everywhere (vehicles, deamon spawn, possesed, and I kid you not a tau battle suit) on these things, all gw. being creative=having the units you want=more wins. plust tactics, and luck, are a factor.

I think that all hobbies are expensive, and that people have a habit of forgetting how much other hobbies cost.

This year I have bought two Armies (space marines and Eldar) They together cost me about 350 pound.

This year I also had to rebuy my entire Kayaking outfit and Kayak as I had outgrown my old stuff.

This cost me 500 pounds for a kayak, 210 pounds for a paddle, 100 pounds for a boyancy aid, 100 pounds for the helmet, 200 pounds for a dry kag(overcoat) 40 pounds for a wetsuit 60 pounds for a Spraydeck, 50 pounds for anti slip wet boots and 10 pounds for a thermal shirt.
that is a grand total of 1210 pounds.

I needed all of that equipment to do the style of kayaking I wanted to do, none of it was optional.

The bare minimum equipment i'd need to play warhammer would probably come to less than two hundred pounds!

combo wrote:I think that all hobbies are expensive, and that people have a habit of forgetting how much other hobbies cost.

This year I have bought two Armies (space marines and Eldar) They together cost me about 350 pound.

This year I also had to rebuy my entire Kayaking outfit and Kayak as I had outgrown my old stuff.

This cost me 500 pounds for a kayak, 210 pounds for a paddle, 100 pounds for a boyancy aid, 100 pounds for the helmet, 200 pounds for a dry kag(overcoat) 40 pounds for a wetsuit 60 pounds for a Spraydeck, 50 pounds for anti slip wet boots and 10 pounds for a thermal shirt.
that is a grand total of 1210 pounds.

I needed all of that equipment to do the style of kayaking I wanted to do, none of it was optional.

The bare minimum equipment i'd need to play warhammer would probably come to less than two hundred pounds!

Well you see... some people collect cars as a hobby , for them warhammer price would mean nothing them

BUT it still doesnt make it cheap

What im trying to say is, its not how much is spent, its what you get in return.

GW is NOT cheap.

My point though is to look at the competitive lists; what are the reasons why their competitive ; Dakkafex , Drop Pod assault armies.


The increase in the ability of Mechanized , at 35 dollars per Rhino or Razorback you've got alot of money to spend if you do want to mechanize.

I'll issue a challenge go ahead and try and make a competitive 300 dollar army. That's it 300 dollars bought with products.

The issue though is true.

Let's look at a good example Imperial Guard. I will take 600 dollars of imperial guard and you can take 200 dollars of marines.

I can't speak for 40k but WHFB is a game of "Show Me the Money"

Hollismason wrote:My point though is to look at the competitive lists; what are the reasons why their competitive ; Dakkafex , Drop Pod assault armies.


The increase in the ability of Mechanized , at 35 dollars per Rhino or Razorback you've got alot of money to spend if you do want to mechanize.

I'll issue a challenge go ahead and try and make a competitive 300 dollar army. That's it 300 dollars bought with products.

The issue though is true.

Let's look at a good example Imperial Guard. I will take 600 dollars of imperial guard and you can take 200 dollars of marines.

There's a couple of problems with your reasoning.

Despite the new codex, IG are not inherently stronger than marines.

I don't think people realize it yet, but all-bike Marines is very competetive, and I could make a decent sized army out of ravenwing battleforces for about 300 bucks. Let's call it 330 so I can get a couple of Predators too. It's even cheaper if I buy at a discount (which is not hard to do).

I can make a good chaos marines list for pretty cheap too, if I stick to things like Plague Marines.

Hollismason wrote:
I'll issue a challenge go ahead and try and make a competitive 300 dollar army. That's it 300 dollars bought with products.

That's not really fair, as it's almost impossible to build a lousy army for $300.

Well, for $317 (or just under if you can grab an Eldrad, the most common special character in circulation, used), you could have:
Eldrad
Yriel
6 Fire Dragons in Waveserpent with Scatter lasers and Suriken Cannon, Spirit Stone
10 Dire Avengers in Waveserpent with Bright Lances and Spirit stone, the Exarch has Bladestorm and Two Catapults
10 Dire Avengers in Waveserpent with Bright Lances and Spirit stone, the Exarch has Bladestorm and Two Catapults
10 Dire Avengers in Waveserpent with Bright Lances and Spirit stone, the Exarch has Bladestorm and Two Catapults

that's not a bad army. Not great, but decently competitive.

money can help just in the fact you can switch different things because you have more models to choose from. When i was yuonger i didn't have any money and lost a decent amount of games. I couldn't afford raiders for my warriors. but then i got them then the next unit. So it can help. If you're hurting for money don't just buy things randomly sit there and crunch numbers and see if it's worth it. I learned how to spend less money on getting an effective army over time. Then i got a real job and stopped caring. Disposable income is awesome. Anyways. Money does not mean win it just means more freedom of choice.

To answer the OP a bit more directly, money helps in everything. For 40k, there's a certain minimum buy-in of roughly $500 (if you're paying retail and buying hobby supplies, paints, etc.) to get up to about 1500pts. The more money you have, the more options you can buy, the more you can tailor lists and modify forces to stay current. Having a second army helps to fill in gaps: when one is bad the other hopefully will be stronger.

That all said, there are a lot of ways to build and maintain competitive armies for a lot less than retail. Buying used, converting, scanning the package deals at the warstore, swapping bitz, etc. all allow a player to stay competitive for less than you may think.

I don't think that the amount spent really factors into how effective something is.

To use the existing examples:
Nob bikers: Well, if you're dumb, you buy all FW nobs. But, you can make perfectly acceptable nob bikers with a few easy conversions and ork biker boxes. Let's say you need a total of 22 bikes (2 warbosses, 20 nobs), 15 lootas and 10 grots for your 1750 list.

22 bikes is 8 boxes of bikers @ $35 ($280)
20 nobs is 4 boxes @ $25 ($100)
1 box of grots and 2 warbosses: ($75)
3 boxes of lootas @ 20 ($60)
Total: ~$500 for 1750
(This is, of course, assuming that you didn't try to be clever and convert black reach stuff even cheaper)



Ok, so, let's compare this to some other current concepts floating around;

Vulkan marines:
Vulkan ($15)
3x 10 marines in rhinos ($12 (MM guy) + $35 + $30)*3 = $231
1x drop-pod ironclad ($50(?) + $30) = $80
1x redeemer ($50)
2x land speeders ($60)
1x assault termies ($50)
1x whirlwind ($40)
1x librarian ($15)
-- Roughly $550

Or Ork footsloogers:
6x 30 boyz ($22 * 3 * 6 = 390)
1 warboss ($20)
1 big mek w/ kff ($20)
-- Roughly $450

Or what about 1750 of chaos:
2 daemon princes ($70)
2 sets dragon wings ($16)
6 obliterators ($132)
2 boxes plague marines ($70)
2 rhinos ($60)
1 land raider ($55)
1 box khorne berserkers ($30)
-- Roughly $450

Or Fatecrusher?
Fateweaver ($50)
16 bloodcrushers ($400)
1 DP of nurgle (W/ dragon wings) ($42)
4 boxes plaguebearers ($88)
1 box horrors ($22)
1 box plaguebearer command ($25)
-- $625

Ok, so the fatecrusher list is about $100 more than the others, although the Vulkan list is a little pricy too. But, other than the fatecrusher list, you're generally looking at $500 +/- $50 for a 1750 list. And that's really going to hold true no matter what you pick. If you're not planning on doing wild conversions, massive bitz-orders, or going crazy with forgeworld pieces, you can generally get a 1750 army for between $450 and $550. Even the 180 ork-boy approach fits these numbers (and that's without using black reach sets too)

Set a budget, stick to it, and I really don't think that money spent makes a better army. It gives you more options in the long-run, but if you're buying to a list that you've already tested and know what you want, it's all about the same.

Yes, but that is also over the 300 dollar limit I proposed earlier as a challenge.

If you have the 500 dollars to spend then yes, those are very competitive lists.

I also think when comparing Guard people will find that the more "expensive" their list with the price of Valkyrie etc. the effectiveness will increase.

I was replying to your initial post - that money doesn't make much of a factor in competitiveness - ans I showed above, you take what are currently considered competitive armies, and they all cost about the same.

$300 to make a 1750 army? That's a joke - this isn't a cheap hobby. Or, perhaps take one of the above, knock 25% off it and say I got it at a discount store

Seriously, it's hard to make a 1750 list for $300, let alone one where you try to be competitive. Essentially, with that requirement, you're asking people to overload on upgrades instead of models, and that's a universally uncompetitive approach to the game.

1750 in $300 means you're needing to find models that you need to average 5.8 points/dollar. That's way on the high end. None of the basic troop boxes, for any armies, fit that point:

10 marines for $35 = 5.5 ppd
10 boyz for $22 = 5 ppd
12 firewarriors for $35 = 4.7ppd

and so on. In fact, I think that the only troops in any codex that can exceed the 5.8ppd that your $300 challenge requires are the Chaos Cult Marines.

It's not a reasonable challenge.

This all is assuming you are paying retail prices for the armies. When I build a new army from scratch I'm on ebay or calling up the warstore.

Suddenly models that cost $35 are now $25, models that cost $25 are now $18. And sometimes I can even find a whole bunch of models for only a few dollars.

However, if you are looking to field a competive force you are looking at a min of $300.

Well, to do a fair comparison, we have to use a baseline. I don't pay full price for most of my stuff either. But, using retail prices is at least one baseline that's consistent for the discussion. Or we can all agree to use 25% off retail... the ratios remain consistent.

Hollismason wrote:Yes, but that is also over the 300 dollar limit I proposed earlier as a challenge.

If you have the 500 dollars to spend then yes, those are very competitive lists.

I also think when comparing Guard people will find that the more "expensive" their list with the price of Valkyrie etc. the effectiveness will increase.

that was an arbitrary number pulled out of nowhere. As redbeard (and I) pointed out, $300 for any 1750 list is going to be hard. You can do it, with necrons, chaos, marines, and the other armies with $250 1500pt boxes, but those are pretty suboptimal.

Even spotting you $300 as a base price for a legal 1750 list, that's still not themed or even the result of selection: it's just what came in the cheapest box. To get a highly compeitive army for 150-200% of the basically the cheapest legal list isn't off the charts when compared to other tournament games like magic.

Not true at all. If it were I wouldn't play.

CCG's on the other hand are all about purchasing power. He who has the better more expensive cards wins and only a fool would try to argue that.

Because purchasing power makes zero difference, it's one of three reasons why, when I decided to start gaming again I chose 40K over MTG or L5R.

Everyone has an equal opportunity to purchase exactly what they want. CCG's have you purchase and purchase and purchase on sheer blind hope that maybe, just maybe that next pack will have the card you so desperately need -or- you end up paying a premium to get them from someone who had even more purchasing power than you. They opened so many damn packs of cards to accumulate multiples of them to sell.

If you happen to have all the money in the world and purchased 10 fold everything GW produces... a 500 point game is still a 500 point game and dice rolls are random dice rolls.