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Gwar whats the deal with Stealth universal rule?  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
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Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Someone posted in that Phoenix and Wraithguard thread that the Stealth USR gives the whole squad Stealth if one character has it and that you had argued pretty convincingly that it does. Where is this at all I see in the Rulebook is that units get it.


So if I take Telion in a Sniper Squad I dont have to buy cloaks as he gives the whole squad Stealth USR?


Just kind of wondering it saves like 30 points and makes Telion a must take.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/06/27 14:56:15


 
   
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Sword-Bearing Inquisitorial Crusader






Botched post.

Nevermind.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2009/06/27 15:04:28


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Florida

By default, IC's don't confer their special rules to a unit they join. The special rule has to tell you it works on the unit.

If you read the USR Stealth rule, it says specifically "All of the unit's cover saves are improved by +1". The wording of this special rule conveys it's use to the entire unit.

   
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Hanging Out with Russ until Wolftime







It is really simple. When a Character (Independent, Upgrade or Banana) with the Stealth Universal Special Rule is with a Unit, the Character has this ability active:
Page 76, BRB wrote:Stealth: All of the unit's cover saves are improved by +1.
Therefore, if even one model has stealth, the whole unit benefits (unless otherwise specified) because Stealth is not a USR with a *, so is kept by the IC.

@Kreedos and Kaaihn: Why you postin' before me? Bad trolls!

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2009/06/27 15:12:45


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Arlington, VA

This would make me do a happy dance if true... I love the "Old-man badass" Telion model and would like to use him more!

Check out my blog for bat reps and pics of my Ultramarine Honorguard (Counts as GK) Army!
Howlingmoon wrote:Good on you for finally realizing the scum that is tournament players, Warhammer would really be better off if those mongrels all left to play Warmachine with the rest of the anti-social miscreants.
combatmedic wrote:Im sure the only reason Japan lost WW2 was because the US failed disclose beforehand they had Tactical Nuke special rule.

 
   
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Gornall wrote:This would make me do a happy dance if true... I love the "Old-man badass" Telion model and would like to use him more!
It is true.

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Arlington, VA

Noice!

Check out my blog for bat reps and pics of my Ultramarine Honorguard (Counts as GK) Army!
Howlingmoon wrote:Good on you for finally realizing the scum that is tournament players, Warhammer would really be better off if those mongrels all left to play Warmachine with the rest of the anti-social miscreants.
combatmedic wrote:Im sure the only reason Japan lost WW2 was because the US failed disclose beforehand they had Tactical Nuke special rule.

 
   
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Long-Range Land Speeder Pilot





Florida

Gwar! wrote:@Kreedos and Kaaihn: Why you postin' before me? Bad trolls!


Your a troll. Clearly, I am a squirrel!

   
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Gwar! wrote:It is really simple. When a Character (Independent, Upgrade or Banana) with the Stealth Universal Special Rule is with a Unit, the Character has this ability active:
Page 76, BRB wrote:Stealth: All of the unit's cover saves are improved by +1.
Therefore, if even one model has stealth, the whole unit benefits (unless otherwise specified) because Stealth is not a USR with a *, so is kept by the IC.

@Kreedos and Kaaihn: Why you postin' before me? Bad trolls!


I managed to write pretty much the most slowed and off topic post I could, and not to mention confuse some rules, so, I just figured I'd take away your first post glory GWAR.

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Longtime Dakkanaut




Interesting so Telion is basically free with a 10 man sniper squad.


What other rules are like that.


Argh Dammit I am slowed apparently looking over my old list that I won a tourney with I shorted myself nearly points :(. I always did Telion + Sniper and Missile which came to 225; Now I realize I never had to buy that so a squad is actually 185.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2009/06/27 16:01:36


 
   
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Proud Phantom Titan







Note if you only buy one model with Stealth and they die you lose stealth. SO don't allocate wounds to that model unless you have to.
   
Made in ie
Fresh-Faced New User




Telion's an upgrade so the stealth goes to the whole squad in my view

fool is already a tool of chaos 
   
Made in gb
Hanging Out with Russ until Wolftime







Tri wrote:Note if you only buy one model with Stealth and they die you lose stealth. SO don't allocate wounds to that model unless you have to.
Or unless an Enemy Tellion pops his ass

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Sacrifice to the Dark Gods





My email from March 29th:

How does having Sergeant Telion and Camo Cloaks effect a squad's cost?

Does he confer the stealth special rule to the squad so they can't use them?
[Making 4 Scouts w/Sergeant Telion cost 125]
Do I have to pay the +3 for Sergeant Telion since he is a model in the squad?
[Making 4 Scouts w/Sergeant Telion cost 140]
Or do I only have to buy cloaks for the Squad?
[Making 4 Scouts and Sergeant Telion cost 137]

Thank you for your time.
Steven.

GW Reply:

Hello,
Option 2 is correct. You would have to pay for a cloak for Telion also(even though he doesn’t actually get it).

Thanks!

John Spencer
Customer Service Specialist

Please do not delete previous email threads as this will help us serve you better!



I had a follow up question also:

Would Telion be able to still use his Stealth special rule even if I didn't buy camo cloaks? That is if I apply wounds to him I would be able to make an improved cover save for him (3+) but still role normal (4+) for the rest of the squad.

GW Reply:

Hello,
Yes, Telion does get the bonus to any saves he takes for the Stealth rule.

Thanks!

John Spencer
Customer Service Specialist

Please do not delete previous email threads as this will help us serve you better!



There's also a list that GW made in a recent issue of White Dwarf (the one about the new IG codex) that has a someone paying the extra 3 for Telion to get a cloak he can't use.

Also if anyone wants they can PM with their e-mail address and I can forward this to you, or you can email GW yourself, maybe after a bunch of spam about it they'll put it in the FAQ
   
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Last I checked, Box packers didn't write the rulebook.

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Sacrifice to the Dark Gods





Gwar! wrote:Last I checked, Box packers didn't write the rulebook.


I'm not sure if you're just making an argument based solely on an ad hominem or if you've just never heard of the askyourquestion@games-workshop.com
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?community=true&aId=4500001
I'm really curious as to why anyone would believe that they would forward rules questions to the packaging department

I think that deferring to an authority (i.e. the system that GW has in place for querying rules) is the only option in this case.
The rule book clearly states what constitutes a unit and what constitutes a model. The USR Stealth does not discuss whether a single model can confer this ability on an entire unit nor does it discuss single models that are part of units but not units themselves. This oversight leaves no real room for interpretation but when conclusions cannot be found assumptions will abound.
I'm thinking that you are calling John Spencer a "Box packer" in an attempt to discredit him. If you have actual proof that he is an unqualified authority in this matter then I would like to see it.
   
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Psynikal wrote:I'm thinking that you are calling John Spencer a "Box packer" in an attempt to discredit him. If you have actual proof that he is an unqualified authority in this matter then I would like to see it.
Did he write the rules? Did he Write any codexes? No, he didn't. he is no more an official Rules source than the INAT FAQ. By his own admission here on Dakka, he has NO contact with the Dev team, he is not official. He is a Customer Service Rep (i.e. a Box packer) who answers rules on the side. The number of times he has ignored the rules and given "This is how I play it" answers lead me to deduce he has no clue about the rules.

Also, I can just as easily post my "Email" from him to back up my view.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/06/28 11:36:29


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games workshop contact us page wrote:Please note: Rules questions and gaming related problems can only be answered over the phone. Please call us, we're happy to talk to you.


going from this i would say that that e-mail holds nothing

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I think the biggest problem is that from my email .....

My email from April 1st:

If I have one model in a unit with stealth does the stealth rule effect every one? For example an IC with Stealth joins a unit, so he is now part of the unit. If he or the unit had stealth the other would now also benefit?

Tri

GW Reply:

Hello,
Stealth rule does indeed effect every one in a unit.

Thanks!

John Spencer
Customer Service Specialist

Please do not delete previous email threads as this will help us serve you better!

...and that's the problem every one can make the email up it is just as good as asking a red shirt.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2009/06/28 11:48:22


 
   
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statu wrote:
games workshop contact us page wrote:Please note: Rules questions and gaming related problems can only be answered over the phone. Please call us, we're happy to talk to you.


going from this i would say that that e-mail holds nothing
If it even is an email...

Got 40k Rules Question? Send an e-mail to Gwar! for your Confidential Rules Queries.
Please do not PM me unless really necessary. I much prefer e-mail.
Need it Answered RIGHT NOW!? Ring me on Skype: "gwar.the.trolle"
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Gwar! wrote:If it even is an email...

Would people really lie about something so trivial?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/06/28 12:06:02


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Agamemnon2 wrote:
Gwar! wrote:If it even is an email...

Would people really lie about something so trivial?


Got 40k Rules Question? Send an e-mail to Gwar! for your Confidential Rules Queries.
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I honestly don't see how you could interpret it any other way. If you say it doesn't then your not really showing a high level of reading comprehension.
   
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Hollismason wrote:I honestly don't see how you could interpret it any other way. If you say it doesn't then your not really showing a high level of reading comprehension.


Yep I was surprised how many people jumped down my throat when I mention this in a Phoenix Lord thread. If thats not how GW want it played then they really shouldn't have made stealth effect the unit. Most units with the Stealth rule have it on every model ... so why not just have it "models with this rule gain +1 to any cover save rolls that they make" ?
   
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Further it even mentions in the beginning of Universal Special rules which rules will not work on a whole squad add in that all rules usually have a sentence such as " This doesn't effect the whole unit".


I dunno I just never noticed it personally. Now that its pointed out though I don't see how you could interpret it differently.
   
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Telion is now offically awesome.
20 points more in a 10 man squad for the ability to snipe characters like a vindicare assassin. Yes Please.

oh man, you have a commisar in that mob of 50 infantry, Ill allocate that rending wound to him.

lasguns fire back? well I bolstered that ruin, so im at a 2+ cover save. have fun trying to kill telion before I kill your leader.

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Demogerg wrote:Telion is now offically awesome
He has always worked this way, people have just not noticed.

Got 40k Rules Question? Send an e-mail to Gwar! for your Confidential Rules Queries.
Please do not PM me unless really necessary. I much prefer e-mail.
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The point to not get caught up on is whether or not a character with stealth gives his unit stealth or not, it doesnt matter. All that matters are the following:

1) Stealth is not a USR that is lost if a character with stealth joins a unit.

2) The stealth rule is written so that the unit has +1 improved cover saves, so as long as even one model in the unit has stealth the entire unit gets the effect.

Its not that the unit is getting stealth, the stealth rule is written so that they still get the benefit tho.



Sliggoth

Why does my eldar army run three fire prisms? Because the rules wont let me use four in (regular 40k). 
   
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Got 40k Rules Question? Send an e-mail to Gwar! for your Confidential Rules Queries.
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Indeed it could be argued that the entire unit doesn't gain stealth, they just gain the +1 cover save as one of their members has stealth.

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