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I added early in the last thread (prior to the silliness that got it locked) that I would post results of the next three tourneys I will be participating in. Yesterday's Ard Boyz round 1 was the 1st tourney.

Overall Standings; there were 20 players in total. 3 Total Ork players.

1st: Mech Orks 60+ points (can't remember exact total)
2nd: Mech Orks 52 points
2nd/3rd: Mech Space Wolves 52 points
4th: Mech Orks 51 points

I came in 4th, but the Space Wolves player advised he absolutely was not going to make it to the next round, so the ticket was deferred to me by the TO.

As a caveat: The GW rep advised the local TO that Deff Rollas did work against vehicles. 1st place Orks had 3 Deff Rollas, 2nd place Orks had 0 Deff Rollas and 4th place Orks had 1 Deff Rolla. We did not know this until the morning of the event. But, at least we know this for the next round as round 2 is being held at the same location.

To my wife's amusement (not really), I've now got another tourney scheduled for August.

By no means definitive proof of how Orks stand in the grand scheme, but locally, they do pretty well.

Yep....Orks are awesome for anyone who knows how to use them.

*insert Dashofpepper's standard cut and paste, 'how to use orks' speech*

So John shaffer is the official GW rule guy.. HE ruled that you cannot use deff rollas against vehicles.. someone calls GW and now you can?

Adepticon FAQ says you cant either..

lol

Better than my store I suppose having judges who havent played since 3rd edition

Deff rolla's working on vehicles definitely push orks over the top, which is probably the reason most places rule they cant. I hope we see some kind of official word on it before the next round as we didnt hear anything about it at the location I was at and it makes a huge difference going into the next round.

http://www.yesthetruthhurts.com/2009/07/ard-boyz.html

Hay 'sup.

Frank Fugger wrote:http://www.yesthetruthhurts.com/2009/07/ard-boyz.html

Hay 'sup.

Save that for yourself. Great site for people who excel in paper theory. We prove the strength of orks on the table.

Doesn't GW have a deffrolla sprue coming out? Nothing like making it useful against vehicles to sell a few more units...

First place with Mech orks at the prelims yesterday by the way. 2 massacres and a minor victory. Orks are definitley NOT 3rd tier

I would like to state that I was screaming about Ork mech all along being incredibly powerful.

Davicus wrote:

Frank Fugger wrote:http://www.yesthetruthhurts.com/2009/07/ard-boyz.html

Hay 'sup.

Save that for yourself. Great site for people who excel in paper theory. We prove the strength of orks on the table.

I agree his lists are all theory and no gaming. he even admits that the local games he does play is against bad players. some of the lists on that site are decent. Most are spam lists that would win vs noobs not experienced players.

We should email john again and see if his position on deff rolla has indeed "changed" with the recent release of the new upgrade sprue

Cause thats pretty absurd that it was allowed

(I suspect John was at home since it was saturday and the janitor picked up the phone)

The problem with Orks is that they can't destroy vehicles without piling out and making themselves vulnerable to attack.

This problem is largely nullified if they can sit safe inside their transports (that should have a 4+ cover save) and plop d6 S10 hits everywhere.

There's a big difference between No Deffrolla Orks and Deffrolla Orks.

If I can get a definitive answer on whether or not Deffrollas will be allowed, I will certainly be taking Mech Orks to the semifinals.


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mrdabba wrote:

Davicus wrote:

Frank Fugger wrote:http://www.yesthetruthhurts.com/2009/07/ard-boyz.html

Hay 'sup.

Save that for yourself. Great site for people who excel in paper theory. We prove the strength of orks on the table.

I agree his lists are all theory and no gaming. he even admits that the local games he does play is against bad players. some of the lists on that site are decent. Most are spam lists that would win vs noobs not experienced players.

That's not true in the least. Love Stelek or hate Stelek, the vast majority of his fundamental advice is sound. It's also pretty obvious (to me, at least) that he plays quite frequently.

sourclams wrote:The problem with Orks is that they can't destroy vehicles without piling out and making themselves vulnerable to attack.

This problem is largely nullified if they can sit safe inside their transports (that should have a 4+ cover save) and plop d6 S10 hits everywhere.

There's a big difference between No Deffrolla Orks and Deffrolla Orks.

If I can get a definitive answer on whether or not Deffrollas will be allowed, I will certainly be taking Mech Orks to the semifinals.

Well they do have boarding planks. But that will leave whatever vehicle they are on in melta range very easily.

I agree and this ruling will make a huge impact on what we see for the second round.

Anyone wanna trade some orks for my necron army? lol

Tell them I said that it worked okay, Deffrollas work on vehicles end of argument.

Our TO called their GW rep this past week and asked about the ruling in regards to the Ard Boyz tourney. He was advised it was allowed, so that is what the TO based the ruling on. As players, we found out the morning of the tourney. No one really built a list around Deff Rolla spam (4-6 Battlewagons w/ Deff Rollas for example).

I agree it is a contested issue and I based my army on it not affecting vehicles. My list had one b/c I used my Necronomicon list and added extra stuff to make up the point difference. The Necro does not allow which is why I only had one rather than three in my army.

However, 2 of the top 4 placed finishers did not rely on Deff Rollas. Second place didn't have a single one.

What the three players did have in common was multiple Battlewagons, Big Mek w/ KFF and Ghazghkull Thraka.

For the next round, I'm expecting to see more Deff Rollas at this location.

Regarding my usage of the Deff Rolla, it was very hit or miss (more misses really):

Game 1: Successfully destroyed a Razorback and Venerable Dreadnought.

Game 2: Nothing. Failed to penetrate a Land Raider.

Game 3: Nothing. Battlewagon destroyed at mid field.

Hollismason wrote:Tell them I said that it worked okay, Deffrollas work on vehicles end of argument.

yep that'll do it

/endsarcasm


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Sarigar wrote:

What the three players did have in common was multiple Battlewagons, Big Mek w/ KFF and Ghazghkull Thraka.

yep that seems to be the pattern everyone was seeing. Add in trukk mobs/kans/deffkoptas/lootas/burnas to flavor. The ork player at our location ran somethign like:

2x loota's in wagons

ghazzy and nobs in a wagon

KFF mek

shootas in a wagon

meganobz in a trukk

2 trukk squads.

GW has a interesting track record when it comes to gray rules issues. Call them twice in the same day, and get two answers. As for adepticon saying something does or does not work: it is not an official GW event, and the faq was longer than the rule book. Treat it as a homebrew rule set used for that tourney. Because it is.

I hadn't heard there was an official rules guy for GW. If there is, then GW needs to post his rulings as official FAQs. If it is not in writing on the easily accessed FAQ, the rules books, then it is not official. Calling up GW for a ruling is the same as rolling a dice IMHO. Rolling to see which rep is on the phone.

Personally I don't see an issue with deffrollas being over the top if they hit vehicles. If somebody with an important tank is stupid enough to be withing 13 inches of a battle wagon that isn't immobile, then they deserve what is coming. How you not run away from a tank that only has an one inch movement advantage? How do you not figure out how to get a side shot on the weak armor on the side?

Ork battlewagon spam is a solid list, but like all unbalanced lists (almost all competitive orks are unbalanced lists) can be countered by smart play, and a flexible list. When Mech orks get 3 of the top 4 at a 20 player tourney, I ask myself what the other people where playing. Orks are good, in fact define the bottom of the competitive part of this game. They are a the "you must be this tall to enter the ride" marker. Does this make them tier 1? No, they get destroyed by too many lists to be that. They are also too weak against armor, which is popular in the 5th ed meta game. Are they tier 3? no that tier is for armies that aren't competitive at all. (as in they can't beat orks, or enough or enough of the armies that beat orks.) This puts orks on tier 2, which makes them a solid choice at an event. They are obviously tier 1 when their bad match ups don't show in enough numbers.

I happen to play orks, but I'm no fan boy. I know what they can and can't do. What they can't do is beat mechanized lists that actually use their mobility, or beat a bike army without resorting to KoS type lists. Nothing wrong with having a weakness, it just happens to be a weakness that is popular right now. Orks are victims of their own popularity. That and the awful changes to how fearless and combat resolution works. I have seen too many times where a squad of enemy is almost wiped out, but the orks lose a quarter of a unit to combat resolution. 20 boy squads will often lose their fearless after the combat res wounds are finished. Its one of the reasons I run throw away truk boyz, or no boyz at all. Grots are fine for scoring purposes, and there is other options in the book for killing ability. Sometimes you can even make them scoring.

As for paper theory vs on the table: in paper both players make few if any mistakes. In reality, orks are vicious at punishing mistakes, so win more than their on paper analysis should allow them. If both players play a flawless game, or the ork player makes more mistakes, the other army (assuming it is a real one, not a fluff army) should win. I have yet to see a flawless game, but I have seen many games where my or other people's orks crush the other side for making a serious error. I also have played/seen games where the orks had almost no chance from the start. Bad match ups are bad match ups.

Davicus wrote:Save that for yourself. Great site for people who excel in paper theory. We prove the strength of orks on the table.

mrdabba wrote:I agree his lists are all theory and no gaming. he even admits that the local games he does play is against bad players. some of the lists on that site are decent. Most are spam lists that would win vs noobs not experienced players.

It's a list of results from various 'Ard Boyz meets from around the US. Hardly "paper theory". A cursory glance down the list should tell you two things:

1) Orks aren't doing as well all over the place as the likes of IG, MechDar and Salamanders.
2) A lot of people are bringing shoddy lists to their meets.

Interpret that how you will.

I wouldnt treat adeption as homebrew.. its the biggest tournament in the nation now since GW fails at GTs this year (heck its bigger than the non-baltimore ones anyway)

They also put A LOT of effort into the FAQs which is something that cannot be said of GW.. I firmly believe that all tournaments should use a UNIFIED Faq that constantly updates "grey areas"

Its sad that GW cant do this for the community and therefore you gotta take it into your own hands

Kirasu wrote:I firmly believe that all tournaments should use a UNIFIED Faq that constantly updates "grey areas"

Signed. The number of problems they'd solve at a stroke by doing this is incredible; there's really no good reason they haven't, either.

Oh god, do we really need this thread? I deeply regret starting the first one.

It's going to be Frank vs the pro-ork crew going back and forth quoting each other's unintelligible non-logic, but now we're going to have a bunch of whiners b*tching about the deffrolla ruling on top of everything else.

Personally, I think orks *are* competitive, they are *not* tier 3, but arrogant, know-it-alls will continue to insist on their perspective no matter what you tell them.

OT: Re, deffrollas: (since it's fun to weigh in)... besides the upcoming new kit, (which gives GW an incentive to rule in orks favor regardless), I've always felt that they should work for a number of reasons, but the strongest intent-based argument is a quote from the codex:

Another type of Battlewagon is the Kursha...these lumbering behemoths can crush the enemy into a bloody paste with their massive spiked deff rollas...A kursha's driver will spend much of the battle steamrolling enemy infantry and *light vehicles*, cackling maniacally all the while.

Not to mention the part in the guard book about a deffrolla taking the top off of Pask's tank. If that isn't an indication of the intent that they work against vehicles, I don't know what it.

Edit: I'm not sure mech orks are an unbalanced list. You've got anti-horde infantry, anti-TEq (in the nobs), speed, armour, excellent protection via the KFF, and limited but significant anti-armour. Boarding planks are very effective if you get close. Granted, my rolling was ridiculous, but I had success against khornatedaemon's mech sallies - if I used my deffkoptas correctly, my mech orks would have taken a major victory against him and even with average rolling I still woud probably taken out both of his redeemers.

The fact that they work against tanks by RAW is beside the point.

dumbuket wrote:Oh god, do we really need this thread? I deeply regret starting the first one.

It's going to be Frank vs the pro-ork crew going back and forth quoting each other's unintelligible non-logic, but now we're going to have a bunch of whiners b*tching about the deffrolla ruling on top of everything else.

So far you're the only one to bring up anything of the sort. It's been quite civil up til your post, and I hope it keeps going.

Furthermore, nobody's "b*tching" about the Deffrolla. Regardless whether you believe it works or not against vehicles, if it is allowed by the tournament organizers, then Orks suddenly have more options for destroying vehicles than they did before.

dumbuket wrote:It's going to be Frank vs the pro-ork crew going back and forth quoting each other's unintelligible non-logic

Come now, my logic is simple; Orks are a starter army, and are the button-basher's choice. They're competetive in areas where people play silly army lists (Mech Space Wolves? Seriously?); everywhere else they get their eye wiped. The stupid thing is that Ork players here KNOW that's the case. They KNOW they're playing an army list any gimp could use to table a cruddy opponent, yet for some reason they get defensive whenever you point it out to them. Statements like "orks are vicious at punishing mistakes, so win more than their on paper analysis should allow them" tell you all you need to know about the Codex; it's simplistic, unreliable and falls flat on it's arse when there are no opponent failures to take advantage of.

And for the record, I don't see why Deffrollas shouldn't work against vehicles.



Let's face it, they need to.

Well, I posted the results over on Stelek's blog. He pretty much called me a liar and cheat. I then tried to respond, and suddenly, there is an error in trying to post. Classy move on his part.

@ dumbuket: In your previous thread, I advised I would post up how my Orks fared in the month of July. I was attending the Ard Boyz, Necronomicon and an RTT. I figured I'd see how the army fared in North Carolina and Florida and in various fields in regards to Battle Points, Army Composition, Sportsmanship and Painting. By no means am I the final authority, but I challenged the idea that Orks are not competitive in a tourney enviornment. Locally, Orks are one of the more competitive armies being played, despite popular internet opinion. No need to be regretful. If you don't want to read it, just don't enter the thread. The last one did spiral out of control by a couple of posters. So far, this has not.

I went 2-0-1 yesterday and placed 4th. My tie was against the 2nd place Space Wolf player. My 2nd game was against Vanilla Marines and 3rd game against a 4 Land Raider Demonhunter army. I managed to kill 2 Land Raiders and outplay my opponent in regards to the mission.

One thing I can say is locally, Nob Bikers are finished. I took my 1850 Necro list and added Nob Bikers and Snikrot/Kommandos to make up the points difference. The Nob Bikers got punched in the teeth every game. Sadly, they will be relegated to looking cool on a shelf. Locals have faced them enough and know how to deal with them.

Ghaz, Nobz in Battlewagons and Mekboy w/ KFF as the lychpin of an Ork army was a bit trickier for opponents. 3 of the 4 Ork players utelized this basic construction and did well.

Will they do well in the Ard Boyz 2nd round? Hard to tell. In all honesty, if I had been matched up against one the IG players in the 2nd scenario, I'd have probably lost. He was able to sit back and absolutely punish his opponent with shooting. I may not have even been able to reach his armored gunline.

From personal experience, I just don't see the Ork codex as an unplayable tourney army. Is it the flavor of the month... no. Folks will flock to the new codex and lots of new armies pop up. However, given time, many will sell off, trade or shelve the flavor of the month and move on to something else.

I really enjoy the army and still fare pretty well with them.

My prelim 1st place list: 110 Boyz, 6 Kanz, KFF Mek, warboss, 10 Nobz in trukk, 12 regular bikes, 15 lootas, near full squad of kommandos with snikrot.

Scored massacre round 1, major victory round 2, round 3 opponent was stomped by my round 2 opponent first round, surrendered to me before the game started.

2nd place was Orks as well, something along the lines of 2x battlewagon, 10 nobz in trukk, 5x trukk o' boyz, 10 regular bikes, 12 lootas.

Expect a rougher time in round 2, but will definitely be assembling the Battlewagon my winnings covered for next time if the deff rolla gets a ruling.

Malecus wrote:
Scored massacre round 1, major victory round 2, round 3 opponent was stomped by my round 2 opponent first round, surrendered to me before the game started.

WTF? That is grossly unfair to all the other players.

sourclams wrote:

Malecus wrote:
Scored massacre round 1, major victory round 2, round 3 opponent was stomped by my round 2 opponent first round, surrendered to me before the game started.

WTF? That is grossly unfair to all the other players.

Unfortunately, we had a small turnout and had already done the math. Unless he scored 6 more points off of me (with Tyranids) than the other Ork player scored on his opponent, the results couldn't change between 2nd and 3rd. And the other Ork player needed to outscore me by 19 points in round 3 to tie for 1st. Anyone and everyone potentially affected was consulted before we allowed the game to be tossed.

Ah, that is unfortunate.

But.. isnt the point to play of a tournament to play a game you enjoy playing?

I talk people out of conceding because Id like to play

Sarigar wrote:Well, I posted the results over on Stelek's blog. He pretty much called me a liar and cheat. I then tried to respond, and suddenly, there is an error in trying to post. Classy move on his part.

Stelek isnt exactly known for his ability to take disagreement without resorting to flipping out :p His advice isnt bad but I dont understand why he thinks orks are bad.. Tournaments are about MATCH UPS not god list vs god list..

I know. I'll let it be. He's the big fish in his small pond. It's the second time I've tried to have a rebuttal on that site that he's blocked it.