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I have been seeing a few posts in various threads bringing up the topic of slow playing. I think most people agree that playing slowly/taking your time during a game in a NON tourney environment is just fine and can be a nice relaxing way to spend a weekend. In a tourney environment I think is where the contention comes into play.

To finish a 5 turn game in 2 hrs, you must average 12 minutes per player turn.
To finish a 5 turn game in 2.5 hrs, you must average 15 minutes per player turn.

To finish a 6 turn game in 2 hrs, you must average 10 minutes per player turn.
To finish a 6 turn game in 2.5 hrs, you must average 12.5 minutes per player turn.

To finish a 7 turn game in 2 hrs, you must average 8.5 minutes per player turn.
To finish a 7 turn game in 2.5 hrs, you must average 10.7 minutes per player turn.

Of course we know that some turns take literally no time, especially if you use reserves.

This doesn't take into consideration set-up and deployment, which if handled slowly can reduce the total game time from 15 to 30 minutes.

There appears to be 4 types of slow players I have encountered in a Tourney.

1) The intentional slow player.
This guy sees your 1,000 tyranid horde or Orks and has his 50 man shooty Marine army. He knows if he takes it slow(both in deployment and turns) he can kill a lot of your stuff before you can get into assault, then boom times up.

2) The slow player that brings the relaxed "non tourney" attitude.
This type of player is really just in the tourney for fun and not necessarily for hard competition. Therefore he doesn't care to play fast or doesn't realize the importance of it.

3) The new player.
This player hasn't been playing very long so plays slow due to no familiarity with his army or even the rules. Also takes longer to make decisions because of unfamiliarity with game consequences.

4) The thinker
This player thinks through every possible move 3 to 4 times then goes over it again before making a move.
(edit..added 4th from thread input)

Maybe there are more, but I'm wondering how you manage to "speed" people up who are types 2 and 3 and 4. I understand you could call a judge over for type 1, but how can you really prove he is slow playing? I have been burned a few times by really slow Guard horde armies due to the massive amount of shooting they have.

Do you just out right ask the guy to speed up his play? Do you just play extra faster your self?

I'm just looking to generate some dialogue to help us educate each other here.

GG

....edited for typos

I was so going to start this topic! I start by kindly letting my opponent's know that there's only x time left, so I'm going to start hurrying on my turns. That usually prompts them to say "Oh, I'll hurry to!" if it'as unintentional or apologize if they see what you were trying to do with that. If that doesn't work the first time, I do it again. After that I ask them to hurry directly. I ran into a new guard player at Ard Boyz second round, and I helped speed up the game by asking if he'd like me to help him get the right number of dice for his First-rank-second-rank-slow-the-clock-forever shooting. He could see I was trying to be helpful and was glad to let me (and it was certainly better than waiting for him to pick out 126 dice). In casual games I've asked if opponents want help moving their hordes if I know them at all, and I've never had someone say no (just let them move the first few and move the rest to keep the same shape, asking if any specific guys need to be up closer or not).

Try to watch the clock for half-time (1 hour, 1.15 hour, whatever) and then say something like, "Hey, half our time is gone, and we've only gotten 2 turns in." I also wouldn't be afraid of giving types 2 and 3 the post-game commentary that "you really need to learn to play faster for a tourney. maybe time your practice games."

I like the idea of saying something after deployment like, "Wow we only have 1.5 hours left, were going to have to play pretty fast to get a full game in." Basically just a freindly reminder that playing faster would be nice.

Also I've never heard a TO make an announcement before the tourney about the need to play faster than normal due to the game time limit. I know that the BOLSCON guys have made a direct announcement about play speed for their tourney, but that's the only time I have ever seen a TO or group mention the time factor.

So I think TO's making a point and encouraging faster play would be helpfull.

GG

I hate playing Guard armies in tournies. So many models to move and shoot. Throw in a slow player and you are screwed.

Twice I've played Guard and only gotten through about 4 turns. I would have won the game had we gone 5 or 6 turns. One time the guy literaly took an hour to deploy. He'd put out his models 1 at a time. Then move the unit somewhere else.....1.....at...a..time. My eldar were beating him, and I needed my turn to contest objectives with skimmers, but time ran out.

The other time I had 2 units of Sword Brethern with furious charge and a crusader squad ready to charge into 3 squads of guardsmen....kill them, massacre into the objective and I win. Time ran out though.

TO's should recognize this and put a warning in....if you are running a horde army, you should be a fast player.

My last tourney, I played a Guard player who simply did not know what he was doing, or what the rules were. EVERY turn he had to look up how to use mortars. And looking up what he needed to roll to hit. And the strength of lasguns....

I ended up being pushie and telling him what to do....

dietrich wrote:Try to watch the clock for half-time (1 hour, 1.15 hour, whatever) and then say something like, "Hey, half our time is gone, and we've only gotten 2 turns in." I also wouldn't be afraid of giving types 2 and 3 the post-game commentary that "you really need to learn to play faster for a tourney. maybe time your practice games."

Of course they are full within their rights to tell you to kiss their ass too. There's a time limit but not a time requirement in the book. Sorry!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

generalgrog wrote:I like the idea of saying something after deployment like, "Wow we only have 1.5 hours left, were going to have to play pretty fast to get a full game in." Basically just a freindly reminder that playing faster would be nice.

Also I've never heard a TO make an announcement before the tourney about the need to play faster than normal due to the game time limit. I know that the BOLSCON guys have made a direct announcement about play speed for their tourney, but that's the only time I have ever seen a TO or group mention the time factor.

So I think TO's making a point and encouraging faster play would be helpfull.

GG

Back in ancient times when I ran tournaments we would definitely give time increments and reminders that everyone had to have a complete final turn.

Bring a time-clock, like in Chess. Talk to your opponent prior to a game and explain how long each player turn can take before the game will be finished early.

Use skirmish trays.

What if they don't?

I had a player at 'Ard boyz in my last round that was either type 1 described above or type 2. That or he just can't memorize statlines very well. He took forever to decide whether he wanted to go first or second (which I can understand, really), and then had to look up his stats like over and over.

It was my first tourney, so I didn't know if he was stalling or not. What I did know was that there was no way in hell that with him going first and 30min left we were starting turn 4, because I wouldn't have gotten to go.

I'm only now (on reading this thread) fully realizing how much his stalling may have cost me, not that I was really a contender for the top 3 or anything.

Frazzled wrote:

dietrich wrote:Try to watch the clock for half-time (1 hour, 1.15 hour, whatever) and then say something like, "Hey, half our time is gone, and we've only gotten 2 turns in." I also wouldn't be afraid of giving types 2 and 3 the post-game commentary that "you really need to learn to play faster for a tourney. maybe time your practice games."

Of course they are full within their rights to tell you to kiss their ass too. There's a time limit but not a time requirement in the book. Sorry!

You are correct. But, I think most people who are trying to be sporting will either: 1) try to play faster in the second half of the game to get at least 5 turns in; 2) take constructive criticism as what it is - not nasty, but something constructive.

I tend to be a slow player. Having played orks in third edition, I learned to play faster (especially after getting a 'win' in like Turn 4 vs. a friend at a GT, and he was right - if we had gone another 1-2 turns, he would have won and deserved to win). I don't play that often anymore, so I've lost some of that skill. But, to me, being a good tourney player also means that you try to get a full game in during the time limit, because some armies do better early game and some do better late game.

Some people will only ever get 4 turns in during a tourney game, but some people will try to learn how to play fast enough to get 6-7 turns in.

We're in agreement on those points Dietrich.

But I see, and would react negatively if someone:

1. brought a timer and tried to keep me to THEIR standard. I'd really slow down for that one. If the TO used one that would be cool however (did that in a nontourney pre-Apoc multiplayer game and it worked great).

2. Made comments after the game. With equal enthusiasm and social wit I'd provide useful advice on what they need to do with themselves and the parental units. I'm not known for being shy in that regard.

Nurglitch wrote:Bring a time-clock, like in Chess.

Personally I like this idea (American Basketball and Football have play clocks), however I doubt there are many people that would agree to this, and may even find the suggestion offensive. I think there are less confrontational ways to speed the game up.

I think it's more about educating the masses. I mean there are times in the past I can remember myself, taking a long time to make decisions, before I realized how my slow play could be affecting my opponent, I.E. I just didn't realize the impact my slow play had on others.

GG

There's an article on Bell of Lost Souls about practising playing fast.

It's kind of funny to think of Warhammer players training for competition, but that's why all other competitive sports from swimming to poker train - so that they're ready and able to perform correctly when the time comes.

Nurglitch wrote:There's an article on Bell of Lost Souls about practising playing fast.

It's kind of funny to think of Warhammer players training for competition, but that's why all other competitive sports from swimming to poker train - so that they're ready and able to perform correctly when the time comes.

Can you provide a link?

thnx

GG

Its an editorial. Multiple negative comments about it as well.

There is a forth kind of guy too.
The Guy thats just thinks too much (has to do all the mathhammer in his head before proceeding). not his fault he's an overthinker just too smart for his own good.

I think mb I'd fall into 3 though saying I'd be completely clueless with my stuff wouldn't be accurate. I try to come prepared with all my stats written on a separate sheet of paper for easy reference so I usually don't need to flip through my codex at all during the entire game.

I don't think I'd enjoy playing against someone who brought their own personal clock and would ignore it entirely. Until that's a standard for all tournaments (which I wouldn't have a problem with) I'm certainly not going to allow one player to run the game. I wouldn't mind however someone just telling me what I needed to roll to hit them to make things go faster.

Nurglitch wrote:
It's kind of funny to think of Warhammer players training for competition, but that's why all other competitive sports from swimming to poker train - so that they're ready and able to perform correctly when the time comes.

Hey, I've spent a couple hours just guessing distances when I started useing Dwarf Cannons.

2 of my 3 games at the 'Ard Boyz had me concerned. Round 2, the SM player took 45 minutes to deploy and move in round 1 (against Daemons, in a Dawn of War setup). Of course, he quit in round 2, which made the whole time issue rather moot.

Round 3 was vs. a green tide: 180 models, spearhead deployment, and lots of finicky deployment to let every unit snake back to the single KFF in the back corner. I helped him with movement & dice throughout the game (removing "misses" from the dice tray sped things up significantly), and we finished the game in time. Of course, it helped that a good chunk of my army mishap'd itself to death....

Over-thinking something doesn't mean you're too smart for your own good. It means you're too stupid to reason efficiently. The whole point of lots of game theory, for example, is to circumvent wasting time on Liar's Paradox style recursions in favour of quick, back-the-napkin calculations.

Fast Play Bell of Lost Souls.

I think everyone should play have tournaments like the UKer and have army lists be 1500pts

If you cannot get a game done in 2.5 at 1500 you might have other problems :p

Since I hate the concept of 'Ard Boyz in general I can only imagine the fun people had over the weekend.

satanslandlady wrote:I wouldn't mind however someone just telling me what I needed to roll to hit them to make things go faster.

The way I'm used to playing there's a constant dialog between players about this sort of thing, where one player declares an action or solicits information, and the other player agrees that the action declared is being done right, or supplies the requisite information.

"20D6, hitting on 4+. Those are WS4, right?"
"Yup. WS4, hitting on 4+"
Roll, 4+ dice are extracted, lined up, counted.
"12 hit"
"Yup, 12 hit, roll to wound"
And so on.

It's hard on the throat, but you learn to keep a bottle of water around.

I am mainly a fantasy player so i can only speak from experience there. I play quite possibly the largest army in fantasy: skaven. I am a very time conscious player as a result, and plan my movements accordingly. And when my opponents says done. I immediately rolling charges, and movements, rally etc.

40K is different. I also played guard... looks like a trend... but if I needed to move i'd ask an opponent but give the disclaimer "please move them a full 6 inches." And tell the opponent during the i reserve the right shift my models per need.

Lastly, even though i have horde armies, I play about 10-12 tournments per year across the Warmachine/ Hordes- Warhammer system. The key is respect of opponent and game. I have no problem reminding an opponent, "hey we've got 2 hours, we're only on turn 2 and we are an hour in." I also have no problem advocating to the TO that i'm being slowhammered. All in all, at the Grand Tournment level, its obvious if your bring slow gamed, and its not offensive to say something.

I blame the tournament organizers. They want to play games with a lot of points, and play a RTT in an afternoon.

Let’s talk about how 5th edition has slowed down the game.

TLOS- You now have to stoop over the table to see if you can see a bit of a model, then if there is a dispute you have to move to you opponents side of the table to check it out etc.

Running- New to 5th edition the “run” phase. How long does it take to roll for the distance for each squad, and then to move a horde army?

Wound Allocation- You do not think about it, but this takes a long time. I was running 3 War Walkers, 2 with scatter lasers, and one with star canons. So I would do about 7-9 wounds and then they would allocate the wounds and they would try to get it so that all of the AP2 hits would be on one model, and then they roll the saves for each model etc. This would take quite some time.

Hordes-5th edition is the rise of horde. Orks and IG means that there are going to be a lot of time setting up and see above for running that many guys. Add to this that the IG got a new time waster…orders. So it takes some additional time to do that.

There are a lot of other factors that you do not think about either. Like the guy who packs up his army after every round and then has to unpack it to set up. (I bring a tray with me to carry my army around between rounds)

Tournaments need to go down to 1500 to 1750 points and be at 2 to 2.5 hours.

I would have won my 'Ard Boyz if I was able to get to turn #5 in my final game.

Nurglitch wrote:Over-thinking something doesn't mean you're too smart for your own good. It means you're too stupid to reason efficiently. The whole point of lots of game theory, for example, is to circumvent wasting time on Liar's Paradox style recursions in favour of quick, back-the-napkin calculations.

Fast Play Bell of Lost Souls.

Pretty underwhelmed by that. I was expecting a long thesis....not a blurb, explaining what we allready knew.


GG

Blackmoor:

By the way you describe it, at least as much blame must be ascribed to the players, such as the guy who packs between games by your example. Certainly GW bears some responsibility for the organization of the tournaments it runs, but that comes at a cost.

When I was in swimming during the 90s, for example, it costs somewhere around C$8000 a year, with each weekend meet costing a couple hundred dollars to enter, on top of accomodation, fuel, etc. I don't think GW tournament players have the funds or willingness to pay for professionally organized competition.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
generalgrog:

Well, it is Bell of Lost Souls, not the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy.

Blackmoor wrote:I blame the tournament organizers. They want to play games with a lot of points, and play a RTT in an afternoon.

Let’s talk about how 5th edition has slowed down the game.

TLOS- You now have to stoop over the table to see if you can see a bit of a model, then if there is a dispute you have to move to you opponents side of the table to check it out etc.

Running- New to 5th edition the “run” phase. How long does it take to roll for the distance for each squad, and then to move a horde army?

Wound Allocation- You do not think about it, but this takes a long time. I was running 3 War Walkers, 2 with scatter lasers, and one with star canons. So I would do about 7-9 wounds and then they would allocate the wounds and they would try to get it so that all of the AP2 hits would be on one model, and then they roll the saves for each model etc. This would take quite some time.

Hordes-5th edition is the rise of horde. Orks and IG means that there are going to be a lot of time setting up and see above for running that many guys. Add to this that the IG got a new time waster…orders. So it takes some additional time to do that.

There are a lot of other factors that you do not think about either. Like the guy who packs up his army after every round and then has to unpack it to set up. (I bring a tray with me to carry my army around between rounds)

Tournaments need to go down to 1500 to 1750 points and be at 2 to 2.5 hours.

I would have won my 'Ard Boyz if I was able to get to turn #5 in my final game.

Blackmoor makes some great points here.

The mechanics of 5th edition are working to slow the game down. Which only highlights the basic problem, I.E. makes it worse. I think the points levels definately figure into the equation, but people have said that they tought themselves how to play faster even in this 5th edition environment. How may people actually work at playing faster? Besides sportsmanship, people that play Non Horde don't really have much incentive to play faster.

GG

Honestly, it just depends on the other person. With some people, it's never worth commenting on anything.

Frazzled wrote:1. brought a timer and tried to keep me to THEIR standard. I'd really slow down for that one. If the TO used one that would be cool however (did that in a nontourney pre-Apoc multiplayer game and it worked great).

I don't bring a timer, but I'll occassionally check my watch. I wasn't suggesting a timer, but I think it's fine to occassionally check your watch. I've even gone the other way, "Hey, we have an hour left, and we're at the end of Turn 4."

2. Made comments after the game. With equal enthusiasm and social wit I'd provide useful advice on what they need to do with themselves and the parental units. I'm not known for being shy in that regard.

Again, it depends on the player. Some players want constructive criticism, some don't. Based on the descriptions of Types 2 and 3, I would guess they're generally more open to constructive criticism. Some casaul and new players seek out constructive comments. Some don't want to hear anything. And I know that I've probably hurt my own sportsmanship score at times, but sometimes you have to call someone out on something, "Hey, can you decide which of your six lascannons you're going to use to kill a lone ork boy with?"

I play horde orks, and try to be as fast as possible (colour coded bases, mobs go into zip lock bags when dead so they just get poured out for next game, consider my moves for next round during oppenents turn and generally think fast). I also happily accept offers of help. Therefore, it really annoys me to play a marine player who takes longer than I do. I tend to tell them flat out they need to hurry up and learn to play faster. Of course, with some gits, that results in intentional slow play. At that point I'm tempted to bring out my phone stopwatch and time our turns, keep a record and then call over a judge. Haven't done it yet, but the more I encounter that behaviour, the more I think it's a good plan.

Blackmoor wrote:I blame the tournament organizers.

Tournaments need to go down to 1500 to 1750 points and be at 2 to 2.5 hours.

I agree. When organizing a tourney, I'd rather have the problem of a little too muich time each round than the problem of not quite enough.