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Much talk has been thrown around about gunlines. The general consensus is that they are not as competitive as other armies. With most of the powerful weapons in the world bearing the "heavy" descriptor, I disagree. In this thread, I will set forth some ideas about how to build a competitive gun line army, and you will argue about them. DANCE PUPPETS DANCE!

The first step to a gunline army is choosing an army. Not all armies can get away with a gunline, just like tau can't build a good assaulty army, and space marines can't really do that whole "horde thing"
The following armies are on the Canonness's approved gunline list:
Space Marines.
Space Marines get lots of free heavy weapons, great saves, scouts with stealth, and many powerful deep strikers.

Chaos Space Marines
Plenty of heavy weapons, Olbiterators, Lash, Troops that aren't afraid of close combat, 1ksons, noise marines.

Imperial Guard.
Tons of cheap ablative wounds, tons of heavy weapons, artillery, tanks, orders. Made to gunline.

Tau Empire.
Many cheap ablative wounds, long range weapons, broadside battlesuits, good deep strikers.

Eldar.
No heavy weapons, a great mobile gunline with assault heavy weapons! Also get a form of artillery.

Orks.
Lots and lots of wounds, lots and lots of shots, assault heavy bolters, aren't afraid of getting their mobile gunline rushed.


The second thing to take into account is your army list.
HQ:
HQs are better at close combat than shooting, most of the time. Use your HQs to keep leadership up, and as a counter-assault unit. These include chaplains, big meks, and even ethereals!

Troops:
You need them. Gunlines have two types of troops.
Static troops:
The iconic gunline units. They park their butts on an objective and kill stuff with their heavy weapons.
These include guardsmen platoons, marine scouts, and fire warriors.

Mobile troops:
What? In a gunline? These guys are suicide units. They contest objectives, tie up big threats in assault, and provide a scary, credible threat.
These include tactical marines, mechvets, shoota boyz, and kroot,

Fast Attack and Elites:
Deep strikers and fast attackers are an important part of a gunline list. They distract the enemy from your heavy weapons, melta land raiders, contest enemy objectives, and make your list more fun to play.
These include all types of terminators, land speeders, crisis suits, deffkoptas, and swooping hawks.

heavy support:
The best FOC section, F*** the h8rz! They sit in one place and kill stuff. They ARE your gunline.
These includes everything in the HS section ever. fer srs.

Then tactics. Everyone loves tactics. Tactics rule.

Deploy as normal, into cover with your troops. Keep DSers in reserve, yadda yadda.

Draw an imaginary line down the middle of the board. Everything on your side of the board belongs to you. What passes it, dies. What approaches it, dies, what looks at it lustfully, dies. Target priority is your main priority. Basically if the enemy wants to get it into your deployment zone, you want it out of your sight and on the "I got owned by more lascannons than should exist" shelf. Land raiders, and anything else that can transport troops dies. Then fast vehicles. Then jump infantry. Then regular vehicles. Then Walkers. Then fleet infantry. Then normal infantry. Then S&P infantry. basically you can ignore objectives provided you own the plurality and contest the rest.

deepstrikers go on enemy objectives. Fast movers go directly in front of enemy vehicles. Square peg goes in square hole. Yadda yadda yadda.


NOW BICKER MY PUPPETS.
BICKER.

I would like to point out that Maugan Ra is a very, very shooty HQ, and should be seriously considered in an Eldar "gun line".

Of course, the problem with most gun lines is that lascannons can't reliably kill rhinos, let alone Land Raiders. The change to the vehicle damage table in 5th ed, along with the change to the effects of vehicle damage on troops means that if you get a vehicle in your gun line, and don't have your own vehicles to block their vehicles... then they're going to tank shock you and bully you off objectives.

Canonness Rory wrote:DANCE PUPPETS DANCE!

Hilarity.

Anyway. I prefer autocannons to lascannons. I find the extra shot worth more than the extra strength, for a couple of reasons. One, I try to get my ACs into a spot where they're likely to get side-armor shots as my opponent tries to keep their front armor facing the bigger threats or advancing on objectives. Second, I rely on ordinance and melta weapons to crack open heavy armor, and my squad-based heavies are there more to mow down the troops that spill out of their broken husks.

For all you loyalist, up to date Marine players it is good to note that Ass Cannons (God I love saying Ass Cannons) do more to AV14 and AV13 than Lascannons. Lances will also be better for Eldar. Guard should just be going with heaps and heaps and heaps of Lascannons and Meltavets and Tau with.....Railguns

Also - I would debate Orks being a gunline army. With BS2? And Furious Charge on almost every unit? Are you serious? Don't you think GW's trying to give you a subtle hint? "These are CC units" they say.....

Also I would add Ksons to your gunline list and probably Grey Knights. If you can put Marines and Orks down as gunline armies then GK and Ksons are too.

And Finally - Is this really a gunline tactica? You are advocating lots of Elites and Fast Attack and moving units. This just seems wrong for a gunline. I don't know. The closest thing you should need to movers might be Rhinos and Chimeras for a little bit of fire support and drawing fire and taking objectives quickly Turn 5

But that's just me and I'm by no means the best player out. There's a reason my Wins - Losses isn't in my sig

re. eldar gunline

I have brought it up before, and I will again.
9 Shadow Weaver SWB. + pathfinder squads and hordes of guardian defender (with support weapon) fodder.

yay! blast markers!

Madgod, you're discounting the insane number of shots that Orks put out with their BS2. Guess what: if you're BS2, but get twice the number of shots as a BS4 model, it's statistically the same!.

Also, because of Shoota Boyz' ability to fire effectively on the move at 18", it makes for a much more flexible gun line, that can actually move away from advancing CC threats while still maintaining firepower.

At 18" a tactical marine has 1 BS4 S4 shot.

At 18" an ork has 2 BS2 S4 shots. So, already an ork has statistically the same shooting as a space marine at short-medium range. But wait!! You get more than twice as many orks for the same price as that space marine.

Add in SAG and KFF meks, a bunch of BS3 kans to help with rokkits and CC threats... and you're looking at about as good a "gunline" as you can get in 5th ed.

BA Marines can put up a nice gunline, but not my style atall

HQ: cheap-ass FOC filler.

Elite: Dreads or vets with plasma / melta spam.

Troop: 5-10 man tac squads with special and heavy weps, razors with each unit.

Fast: no point

Heavy: Baal, vindi or whirl (if you like them) are decent enough, but if you have a nice amount of cover then 3 plasma dev squads wont go a miss

How you can write an 'approved gunline' list without listing Chaos Space Marines is beyond me.

Lemme see;

9 Obliterators, Lash, and troops that can pack heavy weapons. Noise Marines with sonic weapons make a decent gunline.

You're right, CSM added.

willydstyle wrote:Madgod, you're discounting the insane number of shots that Orks put out with their BS2. Guess what: if you're BS2, but get twice the number of shots as a BS4 model, it's statistically the same!.

Also, because of Shoota Boyz' ability to fire effectively on the move at 18", it makes for a much more flexible gun line, that can actually move away from advancing CC threats while still maintaining firepower.

At 18" a tactical marine has 1 BS4 S4 shot.

At 18" an ork has 2 BS2 S4 shots. So, already an ork has statistically the same shooting as a space marine at short-medium range. But wait!! You get more than twice as many orks for the same price as that space marine.

Add in SAG and KFF meks, a bunch of BS3 kans to help with rokkits and CC threats... and you're looking at about as good a "gunline" as you can get in 5th ed.

Orks have the advantage at 18" I'll admit. But SM are useful all the way to 24" when Orks cant shoot back (Tau all the way to 30") Plus At 12" SM are better again as they will do more damage, hit more, do more wounds and ignore saves. Orks only beat SM from 12-18" and even then will do far less than SM will do to them.

The math disagrees with you madgod. If the orks have cover, the math disagrees with you greatly.

Also, since orks can move and fire their shootas at full effect, they are useful at 24" as well.

Orks make a fine gunline!
Just because they have Furious Charge, does NOT mean they HAVE to charge! It means if anyone gets within 12", they can move up, open up with 2 shots from shootas and then charge! Before you get a chance to Rapid Fire.
Add in Lootas, Kans, Tank Bustas, SAG, etc and you do not want to be trading shots!

CSM do the following: run 9 oblits, or in some cases, 6 oblits + havocs w/ 4 autocannons. run termis with autocannons. run some vindicators (you know, for the stuff that sneaks in). Then line up a bunch of normal chaos squads with meltas. Tada! Instant gunline! Of course Tau or IG will win out, but hell, least its fun

willydstyle wrote:The math disagrees with you madgod. If the orks have cover, the math disagrees with you greatly.

Also, since orks can move and fire their shootas at full effect, they are useful at 24" as well.

Ye good sir, dost not ye olde Shootas be blessed with only an 18" range sir? Or dost my calculations and recollections be proved fallible by your greater wit?

I always though Shootas had only 18" range, I'm sure that's in the codex. That WOULD give SM the advantage at 24". Also cover makes it very hard to be a mobile gunline and vice versa. The 2 are kinda mutually exclusive in many cases.

I think what Willy-D-Style is saying is that orks can move 6" and then fire 2 shots at 18", giving a 24" threat-range.
Yes, it might mean leaving cover, but they might have a KFF, or a grot-screen, or other cover they can leap to.
Difficult terrain will slow them down, but not all cover is difficult.

Ork gunlines are just wicked.
Lootas, tons of shoota boys, grotzookas, and dont forget 3 big shootas in each squad - 36" range.

Rapid firing on orks is easier said than done. Don't forget the get a Waaagh!, have furious charge, and will smash your head in in CC. Getting close enough to rapid fire on the next turn = getting charged in most cases.

The lootas will keep the rhinos at bay, and the grotzookas in quantity are just nasty vs. loyalists.

BlackSpike wrote:I think what Willy-D-Style is saying is that orks can move 6" and then fire 2 shots at 18", giving a 24" threat-range.
Yes, it might mean leaving cover, but they might have a KFF, or a grot-screen, or other cover they can leap to.
Difficult terrain will slow them down, but not all cover is difficult.

Ye verily, forsooth! * history geek gang sign*

My thoughts on the topic.

Chimeras are great for a gun line.
M-Laser + H-Bolter + Squad Auto/Lascannon + Squad Plasma Gun / Sniper Rifle + H-Stubber
Cover for you rear artillery too.
IG :: Mech Gunline > Foot Gunline

Three units of Broadsides can target 6 different hard units and play with wounds.
Back that with Death-Rains and MSU Fire Warriors with markers.
Tau :: Mech Gunline < Foot Gunline

I notice you mentioned orks, but IMO, orks don't really make a good gunline.

Oh sure, you can line up 30 shoota boyz with 3x big shootas in each mob, but what it boils down to is the assault is better than the shooting with boyz. (but maybe that's why boyz are the 'suicide unit' :S )

Kanz make a good gunline though, as do battlewagons and Looted BoomWagons.

Also, orks have a great shooty HQ, the SAG Mek! Despite his randomness he can really pull through for you.

starbomber109 wrote:I notice you mentioned orks, but IMO, orks don't really make a good gunline.

Oh sure, you can line up 30 shoota boyz with 3x big shootas in each mob, but what it boils down to is the assault is better than the shooting with boyz. (but maybe that's why boyz are the 'suicide unit' :S )

I'm not sure I agree here. In 5th edition, orks, even slugga boyz, can have a hard time assaulting enemy assault specialists. I've had a squad of 30 sluggas charge a unit of assault marines and lose the combat - and then the extra boyz to wound allocation. It gets even worse assaulting things like scorpions, berserkers or bloodcrushers...

Meanwhile, point-for-point, shoota boyz compare very favourably to marines.
At 24 inches, marines (w/out upgrades) expect to hit with 6 or 7 S4 hits, if they stand still. Orks can advance 6" and expect to score 18 S4 hits - three times as many.
At 18 inches, marines still have to stand still, and orks can choose whether to advance or not, and still expect to score three times as many hits.
Once within 12", marines double-tap and land 13ish S4 hits. Orks can choose to back up (out of assault range) and still get their 18 hits, OR advance, shoot, and then still charge.

Shoota boyz may not have the long-range weapon upgrades, but put three rokkits in a squad, and you get a greater expected return on your S8 hits than Marines do with their missile launchers, and you're an assault weapon so you can still maneuver.

30 boyz with shootas and 3 big shootas will force 11 saves on T4 models, and can follow that up with a charge that'll force another 22(+2 PK wounds) on WS4 T4. That'll knock the bottom out of TH/SS termies, easy (5.5 dead before they get to swing).
The idea is flexibility; you can slide around shooting other assaulty units out 18" (things like berserkers, other ork mobs, etc.) or you can charge other shooty units while softening them with not unreasonable shooting.

Having said that, I think that means you can do shooty orks, but a literal gunline isn't really the same. gunline=fill your deployment zone with guns, blast them before they get there. shooty=does most of it's killing in the shooting phase. All gunlines are shooty, but not all shooty armies are gunlines (think mech SM/mech vets to see non-gunline shooty)


EDIT: I'd like to point something out: compare the modern guardsman (5 pts) to the modern shoota boy (6 pts). They shoot at each other in cover, the shoota boy is almost 3 times as effective (.22 kills per vs. the guard's .083) despite being several orders of magnitude better in CC as well.

An ork gunline is more than just shoota boyz. A shooty ork army will be shoota boyz in battlewagons, with support. An ork gunline is 60-90 shoota boyz, 9-ish big gunz, 15-30 lootas, etc.

The Defenestrator wrote:
EDIT: I'd like to point something out: compare the modern guardsman (5 pts) to the modern shoota boy (6 pts). They shoot at each other in cover, the shoota boy is almost 3 times as effective (.22 kills per vs. the guard's .083) despite being several orders of magnitude better in CC as well.

It's quite different out of cover, and at different ranges. If you're going at 18" range, then a guardsman accounts for .1375 of an ork, or .165 points per shot. The ork accounts for .29 of a guard, or .25 points per shot. But if you're considering 12", the guardsman's effectiveness doubles, while the ork's stays the same, giving the edge to the guardsman (a return of .33 points per shot)

Obviously cover helps the ork more, because the ork's natural save is worse.

Redbeard wrote:

starbomber109 wrote:I notice you mentioned orks, but IMO, orks don't really make a good gunline.

Oh sure, you can line up 30 shoota boyz with 3x big shootas in each mob, but what it boils down to is the assault is better than the shooting with boyz. (but maybe that's why boyz are the 'suicide unit' :S )

I'm not sure I agree here. In 5th edition, orks, even slugga boyz, can have a hard time assaulting enemy assault specialists. I've had a squad of 30 sluggas charge a unit of assault marines and lose the combat - and then the extra boyz to wound allocation. It gets even worse assaulting things like scorpions, berserkers or bloodcrushers...

Meanwhile, point-for-point, shoota boyz compare very favourably to marines.
At 24 inches, marines (w/out upgrades) expect to hit with 6 or 7 S4 hits, if they stand still. Orks can advance 6" and expect to score 18 S4 hits - three times as many.
At 18 inches, marines still have to stand still, and orks can choose whether to advance or not, and still expect to score three times as many hits.
Once within 12", marines double-tap and land 13ish S4 hits. Orks can choose to back up (out of assault range) and still get their 18 hits, OR advance, shoot, and then still charge.

Shoota boyz may not have the long-range weapon upgrades, but put three rokkits in a squad, and you get a greater expected return on your S8 hits than Marines do with their missile launchers, and you're an assault weapon so you can still maneuver.

Verily sir, your mathematicisms do you and your sires great credit. But dost ye forget that Orks, in their infinite stupidity do not possess the great depth and strength of armour that the Emperor's loyal Space Marines do? Forsooth, the power of their armour makes a mockery of the guns of orks, and verily, only one who was trying to put a spin on the facts to support their own belief would omit it's mention. Prithee good sir, surely one of your moral standing and righteous bloodline would never dream of such an act?

Please note I mean no offence and would have added a in several places, had that better fit the tone of my soliloquy. Also incidentally, it is very hard to fit the phrase Space Marine into Ye Olde Englishe without sounding even weirder

If you express the same math as number of points killed, you'll find that the orks kill more points of models per shooting phase.

What you cant add Necrosn to your list of gun line armies?

No, I cannot. They CAN gunline, but their most effective units are jetbikes and the monolith. Sure, a 2x orb lord 50x warrior list is something like a gunline, it is not a good build.

Emperors Children! And were not afraid to get in a fist fight. being marine's and stuff.

Shadowbrand wrote:Emperors Children! And were not afraid to get in a fist fight. being marine's and stuff.

Not to mention hitting at initiative "You die first"

I think we forgot a key component of nearly every gunline. There's counter attack, there's the actual muskets, then there's the speedbump. This could be anything that people find annoyingly hard to kill in an assault, from a huge mob of grots to scarab swarms to a wraithlord, these things eat charges and keep your gunline from being hit by them

Guard can be handy for a gunline with the "First rank, FIRE! Second rank, FIRE!" rule, giving everyone an extra shot. Then when the scary assault troops come, bring in the mechvets to tank shock them with a chimera and shred them with shotguns and heavy flamers.