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I know Dakka has a "trade at your own risk" policy, but that should also mean that the members have the ability to police themselves, or at least warn themselves when someone is scamming.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/260581.page

However, this thread looked like it got locked prior to anybody being able to make any headway. So should the solution be, Dakka should be more active in policing the swap threads, or should the members be allowed to take matters into their own hands since it is "trade at your own risk"? I think the problem right now is that we have a double standard being enforced by the Moderation staff that unfortunately protects the scammers and makes the integrity of the Swap Forum dubious.

Discuss.

The trade at your own risk is far too easy to exploit which is unfortunate for people who want to trade and do it right.
What would be helpful is if a MOD could take some time out to set up a points system like they have on other forums, yes it takes time and a lot of effort will need to be put in but at the same time a points system would be of greater help to newer members and older members alike especially if you or they as it were, were looking for that specific model.

A policing of sorts would also be useful to discourage scammers and thieves from trying as i see the one above if there is no one to check for multiple users then this may happen more than dakka needs or wants it to.

the only other real thing to do would be close down the swap shop which may in turn lead to some of the people having to go elsewhere.

At the moment, a SwapShop policy is currently being discussed, and a plan of action formulated.

As to the points system, there is the Good Trader reference system as things stand, which seems to be doing it's job quite adequately.

The lack of 'feedback' per se (aside from the completed trades - all good, no bad), means that I am highly unlikely to continue to use the swap shop. I've made a couple trades, and they've been fine, but the lack of 'references' to guide trade parameters, and no way to know who to look out for gives me pause.

Closing the swap shop is an option, but if people want to trade caveat emptor, then they should be free to do so.

If nothing else, Dakka could sticky a set of instructions, a la trade sites like Bartertown, about how to handle potential scammers. Using delivery confirmation/tracking, knowing your paypal and credit card windows, contacting the scammer's local police for a substantial scam, filing mail fraud claims with USPS, etc. should all become common knowledge for the users, to complete the 'buyer beware' stance. And yes, a scam involving receiving goods based on an agreement, through the mail, is mail fraud.

I still use Bartertown, and while there is the 'perception' of protection, the feedback mechanics, bad trader sections, and modding that goes on there makes me 'feel' better.

Ultimately, any site is buyer-beware at its core, its knowing as much as possible to protect yourself.

After my last trade, I'll be sticking to bartertown. I got my stuff, but it left alot to be desired.

whitedragon wrote:I know Dakka has a "trade at your own risk" policy, but that should also mean that the members have the ability to police themselves, or at least warn themselves when someone is scamming.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/260581.page

However, this thread looked like it got locked prior to anybody being able to make any headway. So should the solution be, Dakka should be more active in policing the swap threads, or should the members be allowed to take matters into their own hands since it is "trade at your own risk"? I think the problem right now is that we have a double standard being enforced by the Moderation staff that unfortunately protects the scammers and makes the integrity of the Swap Forum dubious.

Discuss.

Yep , if you scroll down to page 1 , i was about to go crazy lol. But because Ketara said:

Ketara wrote:At the moment, a SwapShop policy is currently being discussed, and a plan of action formulated.

As to the points system, there is the Good Trader reference system as things stand, which seems to be doing it's job quite adequately.

I'll be patiently awaiting the results . ( I wana sigh up for swap shop mod now -_- )

I have had a few successful trades here on Dakka, but bartertown is my goto site for trading/selling minis. In my experience, trades here tend to move more slowly as it is not a dedicated trading site. Maybe there could be a sticky link on the dakka swap shop to steer traders to bartertown.

I've been using Rogue-market.com with no problems, while it has been less than a year old, there has been over 2,400 members there, and the staff has helped of all the bad trader reports in retrieving all their items back to deal with scammers, or at least helped.

We've always considered dakka to be a non-trading site and have always referred serious traders to bartertown and the like, so seeing people complain that we should be more like bartertown shows what a good job the swap mods are doing - we are at least 2 levels up from the original 'we dont care' now and I'm sure the swap mods will only continue to improve things, so good job swap mods and I hope you can keep up the progress!

I dont think there is an issues on swap shop there hasn't been super scamming - all of them have been, or most have been smacked.

I saw that thread and it did indeed seem like the mods were trying to protect the scammer and make it difficult for the victims involved to gain headway. If you're going to do that crap and allow scammers to get away with their bs then we're better off not having a Swap Shop in my opinion.

Not that I support witch-hunting or think it's a good idea to go off posting personal info before giving the accused ample time to defend themselves, but in cases like this it's likely that you've already fought with them for several weeks, gained nothing, and are starting to lose patience. In either case though I don't think the thread should have been locked, then you're basically protecting the scammer as I said and leaving those who have lost out on their trades to go back to PMs that'll just end up being ignored.

Sidstyler wrote:I saw that thread and it did indeed seem like the mods were trying to protect the scammer and make it difficult for the victims involved to gain headway. If you're going to do that crap and allow scammers to get away with their bs then we're better off not having a Swap Shop in my opinion.

This was really the point of my post. There seems to be a double standard on Dakka currently surrounding the Swap forums. Either we eliminate this doublestandard (through more moderator presence, or letting people sort it out themselves, or however) or we don't have a Swap forum.

Whichever way we do it, it needs to be consistent. If the moderators want to step up, that's fine, but they really did seem to step over the line on that particular thread in question.

I agree. I've had my first bad experience in the swap shop recently and trying to contact someone who isn't interested is very difficult. I've had numerous good experiences and did some basic research to make sure I was dealing with a regular. Unfortunately, that didn't make a difference in my case.

While it won't affect my dealings with other Dakkites, the saying, "Once bitten, twice shy" comes to mind.

I've had a few HORRENDOUS experiences on Bartertown & on Dakka, but I have to say that %99 have gone smoothly. Since there is really no way of knowing whether the person you are dealing with is on the up & up or waiting for the next sucker to walk in, it really is a risk. It will be interesting to see how the powers that be, here on Dakka, handle it.

I also kept getting spammed by traders with ZERO post .
I have no idea what i should , and how to respond to those people.

Swap mods want to see if they are alt accounts?

Don't think they'd have time for that.


maybe cut it to 50 posts + to trade? or maybe 100?

I mean if dakka isn't 'relied' on trading - then putting a cap like this will fend off at least a good % of Dakka noobs.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
If anything else -

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/260962.page

put that toghether.

whitedragon wrote:I know Dakka has a "trade at your own risk" policy, but that should also mean that the members have the ability to police themselves, or at least warn themselves when someone is scamming.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/260581.page

However, this thread looked like it got locked prior to anybody being able to make any headway. So should the solution be, Dakka should be more active in policing the swap threads, or should the members be allowed to take matters into their own hands since it is "trade at your own risk"? I think the problem right now is that we have a double standard being enforced by the Moderation staff that unfortunately protects the scammers and makes the integrity of the Swap Forum dubious.

Discuss.

That's because there is a double-standard.

Creating a 'bad trader list' based on internet posts is an inherently flawed system that is incredibly difficult to properly maintain.

When a trade supposedly goes bad, user X posts about it on the forums and says "User Y ripped me off!" and then User Y posts "No, User X didn't send me the money we agreed on!" and they go back and forth in an endless stream of completely unverifiable accusations.

Even such 'proof' as delivery confirmation links can be falsified.

Hell, there are even major players in online trading sites that absolutely believe that the other party is guilty of scamming and/or unfair policing.

The point is, scammer lists are inherently hearsay and Dakka is not going to get into the business of trying to filter through that hearsay. We have never been a trading site and do not want to be one. Every bit of technical effort we would spend on implementing such practices would be better spent in areas that aren't already well covered by other sites.

Why would we want to try to re-invent the wheel when other sites such as Bartertown and Roguemarket already do it so much better then we do?


Yes, it is okay for someone to post that they haven't received their expected item from another user in the swap shop. Other users who have had issues with this user can also post about their problems as long as everyone stays polite. Personal attacks or posting of personal information should NOT be done for the simple reason that there tends to be no verifiable way to prove that one user scammed another user.

Just take a step back for a second an imagine that another user wrongly accused you of scamming them in a trade and decided to post your personal information on Dakka. Would that be something you'd be comfortable with (and if you say yes, you probably shouldn't, BTW).


By doing this we aren't protecting scammers, we're protecting everyone, equally. If you have an issue with another user, as always you are encouraged to contact a moderator or administrator and if we get enough complaints from different users about a certain user scamming them then this will be handled like any other trouble user on the site and they will be IP blocked from Dakka. . .but this isn't going to happen just because a couple of people claim that they got scammed for the same reason that you wouldn't want those same rules applied to you if you were falsely accused.


Right now you may be thinking: 'But this system rewards and protects scammers and leaves reputable traders like myself in dangerous water.' And you're right to a degree. The first thing I would say to you is that we now have a 'reputable trader' list. Trade only with people on that list and you'll have a much better chance of having a successful trade. Second, if you are afraid of being scammed, USE A REPUTABLE TRADING SITE.

But no, we will not be getting rid of the Swap Shop. Dakka is a popular forum and people want to post information about things they have to trade or sell. Removing the forum would simply cause more of a hassle as users would subtly attempt to flood other areas of the site with information about their trades and sales.

Ultimately the swap shop is there for you to use only if you want to. If you don't like it, don't use it. It's just that simple!

LunaHound wrote:
I also kept getting spammed by traders with ZERO post .
I have no idea what i should , and how to respond to those people.

Swap mods want to see if they are alt accounts?

My advice to you would be:

Do not trade with anyone you are not comfortable with. Period.

Or you could always send them a PM saying that you are on the reputable trader list but they are not so you expect them to send their stuff to you first and THEN (and only then) will you provide them with their items. Make that a pre-condition of any trade with someone you don't recognize and you should be fine.

Just take a step back for a second an imagine that another user wrongly accused you of scamming them in a trade and decided to post your personal information on Dakka. Would that be something you'd be comfortable with (and if you say yes, you probably shouldn't, BTW).

QFT QFT.


I know how that feels.

I have to say I hadn't thought of the complexities of these kinds of issues. I just saw something I thought wasn't handled well, and reacted. Unfortunately now I see that I was probably "piling on" to something that everyone else was reacting to, too!

I've thought about it over the past few days... and I've realized it's probably a lot harder to handle these situations than I thought. Also, I probably don't say "Thanks!" enough to those that are trying to handle them for us

So thanks, guys... meaning GoFenris, Jin, and Ketara (not to mention legoburner and yakface). And if in the future I think of a good suggestion for handling these things differently, I'll definitely post it up in here and let you know!

Steve / RTN

orctez wrote:I have had a few successful trades here on Dakka, but bartertown is my goto site for trading/selling minis. In my experience, trades here tend to move more slowly as it is not a dedicated trading site. Maybe there could be a sticky link on the dakka swap shop to steer traders to bartertown.

We do. It's conveniently in the Sticky Announcement at the top of the page.

Cruentus wrote:The lack of 'feedback' per se (aside from the completed trades - all good, no bad), means that I am highly unlikely to continue to use the swap shop. I've made a couple trades, and they've been fine, but the lack of 'references' to guide trade parameters, and no way to know who to look out for gives me pause.
...
If nothing else, Dakka could sticky a set of instructions, a la trade sites like Bartertown, about how to handle potential scammers. Using delivery confirmation/tracking, knowing your paypal and credit card windows, contacting the scammer's local police for a substantial scam, filing mail fraud claims with USPS, etc. should all become common knowledge for the users, to complete the 'buyer beware' stance. And yes, a scam involving receiving goods based on an agreement, through the mail, is mail fraud.

I still use Bartertown, and while there is the 'perception' of protection, the feedback mechanics, bad trader sections, and modding that goes on there makes me 'feel' better.

Ultimately, any site is buyer-beware at its core, its knowing as much as possible to protect yourself.

I agree 100% with the last line here.

Secondly, there is the Reputable Trader's List which tells you who has traded positively with others on Dakka. Yakface has already explained issues revovling around creating a 'bad trader's list' - though the idea of creating one is still on the table, assuming we can work out a way for it not to go out of control.

With regard to advice on how to avoid bad trades, the Sticky Announcement links to a previously maintained thread on trading advice. We may need to re-sticky that thread. Rogue_Market was also kind enough to post up the guidelines/tips used on Rogue-Market.com

Haunted_Undead wrote:The trade at your own risk is far too easy to exploit which is unfortunate for people who want to trade and do it right.
What would be helpful is if a MOD could take some time out to set up a points system like they have on other forums, yes it takes time and a lot of effort will need to be put in but at the same time a points system would be of greater help to newer members and older members alike especially if you or they as it were, were looking for that specific model.

A policing of sorts would also be useful to discourage scammers and thieves from trying as i see the one above if there is no one to check for multiple users then this may happen more than dakka needs or wants it to.

the only other real thing to do would be close down the swap shop which may in turn lead to some of the people having to go elsewhere.

This is a technical issue that would lie in legoburner's jurisdiction. While it would be a great step to take to make a better Trading Site, that's not in the direction that legoburner and yakface seem to desire to take. At the very least, not at this point in time.

carmachu wrote:After my last trade, I'll be sticking to bartertown. I got my stuff, but it left alot to be desired.

Could you elaborate? What I get frustrated from these threads is that suddenly, many people pipe-in to comment on how they're staying away from the Swap Shop now without ever letting us know what they think is a failing in the system. I'd love to think that not hearing complaints means we're doing a good job, but I know that that's not 100% the case, as evidenced by lots of these similar types of comments.

whitedragon wrote:

Sidstyler wrote:I saw that thread and it did indeed seem like the mods were trying to protect the scammer and make it difficult for the victims involved to gain headway. If you're going to do that crap and allow scammers to get away with their bs then we're better off not having a Swap Shop in my opinion.

This was really the point of my post. There seems to be a double standard on Dakka currently surrounding the Swap forums. Either we eliminate this doublestandard (through more moderator presence, or letting people sort it out themselves, or however) or we don't have a Swap forum.

Whichever way we do it, it needs to be consistent. If the moderators want to step up, that's fine, but they really did seem to step over the line on that particular thread in question.

We locked that thread because it was devolving into attacks on a member of the forum. I had asked early on in the thread for people to avoid name-calling and to only post if they had pertinent information - a request that was ignored by some members. We were letting it go on until the number of attack posts started to grow too much. We even repeatedly re-opened the thread when members with relevant information PMed us to post up more info. Yakface said everything else I'd like to say on this comment.

Jin

I just wanted to chime in and say that I'm really impressed with the way that the Dakka leadership (mods, admins, etc) is handling the swap shop. I've been keeping an eye on the swap shop and seen the relevant threads, and I think that the approach that's being taken is excellent. I agree 100% with Yakface's thoughts. Also, when I first say the thread in question, I was worried when I saw how fast things turned ugly, and was worried about the other guy's side of things. I think the mods did well in handling that - the witchhunt was stopped, but pertinent information still was added to the thread.

So, just wanted to say 'good job', really. Especially in a thread that's had so much negativity.

Jin wrote:
Could you elaborate? What I get frustrated from these threads is that suddenly, many people pipe-in to comment on how they're staying away from the Swap Shop now without ever letting us know what they think is a failing in the system. I'd love to think that not hearing complaints means we're doing a good job, but I know that that's not 100% the case, as evidenced by lots of these similar types of comments.

Sure.

I responded to an ad that had 40k orks, looking for goblins. I had 3 boxes of night goblins, last edition NIB plus 3 blisters of fanatics, NIB. I stated up front what I had.

He traded them for a battlewagon, 2 characters-mek and psycher. PLus 4 burner boyz. No mention of condition, which would have been helpful. Led to believe unpainted.


What arrived was a mess. Badly shipped. the models literally just thrown in the box at random, so half or almost all the models were in pieces. Worse is the "packing" which I use in loose terms, was 3 pieces of newspaper thrown on top.

Worse was that it was all painted, badly. Worse was that there seemed to be paper glued/stuck to the battle wagon. Worse still, its missing a wheel and the burner boyz are incompete missing a body.

Only the characters are actually usuable if I strip them. And theirs no response from the punk.

You ask why were not responding or letting you know. But its been stated in this and other threads its trade at your own risk. And that you (Dakka) arent responsible. SO its not like I would expect you to respond like I would file a complaint at batertown.

Personally I think you either need to cancel the forum or provide real supoort, not play in the middle.

@carmachu - fair enough. Your post left it somewhat ambiguous whether it was a failing of the trader or specifically the Swap Shop (though the one is related to the other, certainly).

I only ask because a lot of these comments have popped up since the SwapMods were instituted, and honestly, I do take some of these issues at least somewhat personally. No, we can't respond in the same manner that Bartertown can/will, but we can take input from people to try to improve things, even if only a little. Apparently that's not enough for some.

If I may chip in here for a second, the SwapMods are a relatively new establishment. Until our inception, there was next to no moderation of the SwapShop, and nobody paid any attention to any of the rules that did exist.

However, in it's lawless state, I never saw any of this, 'if it's not going to be as secure as bartertown/ebay/etc, it should be completely shut down!' stuff. People just accepted that that was the risk of the internet. Any disputes between members back then were handled by the regular mods in exactly the same way that we are currently handling them.

As Yakface said. the forums have always just been an additional service to the Dakka members. Saying that we should provide more support is all very well and good, but what would you suggest we do?

The SwapMods were brought in to regulate the SwapShop, and help promote trade there. I'd like to think that we've done both, and with the inclusion of the Postitive Traders list, provided some additional security for members wishing to use it.

We provide what support we can within the context of our position, and the forums rules. One person posts that he's having a bad trade experience with a member. Before you know it, the thread is filled with page after page of people jumping on the bandwagon, and shooting off personal insults left right and center, regardless of whether they have anything to do with the issue or not. As one of the primary rules of Dakka, we ensure that members are polite to each other, and moderate anything that steps outside of that boundary. You may choose to see it as iron fisted totalitarian abuse of our power, but the fact is, those are the rules. They are applied everywhere in the forum, and do not cease to exist momentarily so that members can have a slagfest at the expense of one allegedly bad trader.

Ultimately, the SwapShop does not seek to become a Bartertown or Roguemarket. Why? Because they exist already. As said before, 'why reinvent the wheel'? However, saying that in that case, the SwapShop should be shut down altogether is preposterous. It's a service many people use, myself included, and reap the benefits from, allowing us to enjoy our hobby that much more. Telling me, and all other users like me that we should not be allowed to have a swapshop anymore because someone has had a bad experience seems a tad unfair to me. We all know the risks when we use it, and we accept that.

As mentioned before, it you don't like it, then don't use it. That's not an excuse for it's shortcomings, but the fact is, you are presenting two options here with such an ultimatum, both of which are untenable.

-Abolish the SwapShop.
-Have it heavily moderated, a complicated points system, and have mods there to initiate witchhunts against bad traders, going as far as to contact police and whatnot.

Neither of these options are an option. If you have a suggestion that can genuinely help to improve the security of the SwapShop without trying to turn us into BarterTown, then please, suggest it! If it's a good idea, we'll institute it! We don't mind putting in a little effort to improve the swapshop, after all, it's what we exist for!. However, we can only work within the boundaries of our position and authority, and thus can ultimately only do so much. Thank you.

Jin wrote:@carmachu - fair enough. Your post left it somewhat ambiguous whether it was a failing of the trader or specifically the Swap Shop (though the one is related to the other, certainly).

I only ask because a lot of these comments have popped up since the SwapMods were instituted, and honestly, I do take some of these issues at least somewhat personally. No, we can't respond in the same manner that Bartertown can/will, but we can take input from people to try to improve things, even if only a little. Apparently that's not enough for some.

Right. Nothing you can do, like I said. And no, it really isnt enough. Seriously.

If your going to have a good trader list, you need a bad one as well.

Why?

This recent fiasco was not something that was anticipated three months ago, and as such, it's clear from comments that we do need a bad trader list of sorts. As it is, we are trying to figure out a way to implement one in such a way that it works within the context of the Dakka Swap Shop. I'd like to think that would help things move in the right direction. There are many things we simply cannot implement given the constraints we work with, but we DO try to make whatever improvements we can. We're never going to win over people who want the better support/assurances that Bartertown and RogueMarket provide, but that doesn't mean that people who use the Swap Shop can't benefit from the input of those who choose other trade sites.

I sympathize with your bad trade experience, and do hope you have better success on Bartertown, but now at least there's feedback off of which we can work to improve things for people who are still using/finding successful trades in the Swap Shop. We're still evolving a bit here, but it's easier to do that with some constructive criticism.

The issue I have with bad traders, unless its completely open and people can post what they want and caveat emptor, is that others will get on an post bad things about other posters just because they don't like them.

Perhaps the "warning list" could be a thread that:

1) Could only be posted in by moderators
2) Could have clearly posted at the top that in order to add someone to the list, two or more "reputable" people (determined by post count? date of joining? something?) would have to refer them to a SwapMod, with details (such as emails, pictures, or records of PMs)

Too complicated? Too much work? Both?

I'm very happy with the swap shop (it's my favorite part of the site). I also think a lot of these issues simply weren't voiced before, since there were no mods... so at least now they're getting voiced and addressed as best as possible, imho

Frazzled wrote:Why?

Because there are people to avoid dealing with, when they've been dealing in bad faith. The last trade was my last here, and I would, should anyone ask, tell ANY poster with photo evidence if they want, WHY they should avoid said trader.

Mislead on condition, inadequite shipping protection AND missing parts.

Would you want to trade with that person? I'll happily stick all the items in a box and trade them too you exactly like I got them. SOunds appealing?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Frazzled wrote:The issue I have with bad traders, unless its completely open and people can post what they want and caveat emptor, is that others will get on an post bad things about other posters just because they don't like them.

I'm more then willing to let you read my inbox and more then willing to either take pictures or ship you the contents I got under the exact same condition to you at my cost if you like.