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battle wagon- def rolla,cannon,red,plank
9 Deversified Nobs+painboy
Warboss-squig,klaw,hvy,cybork

battle wagon- def rolla,cannon,red,plank
18 slugga boys+nob (PK,BP)
KFF Mek-PK,hvy

battle wagon- ram,cannon,rokkitsx2,plank
18 shoota boyz+nob(PK,BP)

battle wagon- ram-cannon,rokkitzx2,plank
18 shoota boyz+nob(PK,BP)

1 deff kopter(tl-rokkitz,buzzsaw)

1 deff kopter (tl-rokkitz,buzzsaw)

Battle waggons move up field together and usually hit one side and work my way through from one side to the other
deff kopters outflank or scout.

advice?

Your army list seems a little awkward.

You've got some shooty boys, some assaulty boys....they're all in battlewagons. Battlewagons either rush up the field as fast as possible to deliver their payload or they sit around and shoot stuff. You've put plenty of guns on your battlewagons full of shooty boys...either they sit still and shoot, or they're moving up the field and not shooting, or moving 6" and only shooting one of your rokkits.

That means you're either wasting gigantic amounts of points in things you won't use/shoot, or you're going to split up your forces. If you plan on rolling the whole ensemble ahead 6" per turn, then you might as well drop the slugga boys and fill them up with shoota boys so you can get some shooting.....OR.....you're going to split up your forces, leave half of them without a KFF Mek to benefit from while the other half goes in alone?

Either way, your effectiveness is gimped.

Not so.
Your advice tends to lean twards "orks get the charge they krump" you must not play alot of CSM. I dont always want to charge the 11 chimeras w/melta inside and hvy flamer on hull (thats like 50% BW pen.) even with planks. this is an all comers list, some times I play it fast, sometimes I play it slow. I dont split until I'm ready to charge or I"m going for objectives which I usally make all in a line twards my end goal (and I leave behind shooty boys in a vehicle as my army passes them). It must not be that bad of a list since your post was 1/35th the size of your usual prattle. now back to ur cheese,wine, and crappy metal/rock fussion music.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Plus 40 points is not a huge wast of points when it gives me 4 str 8 shots when I need them.

Personal attacks leveled at honest (and true) advice will get you nowhere. Take critisism with grace or dont bother posting.

The points made abount your list are true. There is no reason to include slugga boyz in that battle wagon. Shoota boys are still very effective on the charge and have better guns.

If you are planning on charging your battlewagons forward then there is little point having shoota boys and 2 rokkits on each wagon.

Pick what you want to do and stick to it. In this game focus is more effective than versitility. Your wagons will do better as either gunboats or assault transports. If you try and do both they wont perfrom as well.

Also your two deffkoptas are out of place. They will eat all the small arms fire that cant be aimed at your wagons and die, and you will have lost 140pts for no benefit. It would be better to scrap them and improve the rest of your army.

Drop the planks for sure, also, killkannons are crappy, If you want pie plates don't play orks, or if you must grab a looted wagon. I hate red paint jobs some swear by them, just think about if you need to spend points to move an extra inche.

Grimgob, I don't think you understand how and why I post.

When someone has great idea, regardless of what theme they're going to take but aren't going at it very effectively, they get a freakin' 4 page annotated notes of the Ghazghkull Chronicles on how to tweak it to seriously perform.

When someone has a crap list, I make a short post, usually along the lines of, "I'm not sure you understand how to play Orks," kind of like the one you got. Your list and expressed tactics for using it are fundamentally flawed. I can help someone tweak their engine to make it run more smoothly and get better performance and am glad to do so...

But your army list is like a car with square wheels, you've put sugar into the gas-tank, put in a $600 stereo with no locks on the door, and pimped it with 22" rims on one side, donuts on the other, and put hydraulics on the donuts to try balancing things out. I can't fix crap like that, I can only point out what a terrible car it is and how you need to go back to the drawing board.

Call me names all you like; a crap army list is a crap army list.

No one called you names Dash. I just don't agree with your play style. Yes somethings you say are true, but you come off as a know it all TFG.No matter how self proclaimed your not Gork or Mork. I win 70% of my games and I play lots of different people and armys, some are even on this site.

Regwon: lots of people run single unit def kopters as suicide units (I was thinking about running Rokkit buggies to run a screen in front of BW's) They kill something then die. I been using the choppy boyz cause there painted and I still disagree with rokkitz being a waste because charging head long is not always the best way.

Despoiler: Planks are awsome, killing tanks without disembarking is great. not killkannons but kannons. I used to run a looted boom gun and it was great fun, just not reliable.

and back to Dash: You tell people how to rebulid their lists from the ground up the way you would build a list and then tell them its the only way, thats not tweaking. Don't get all butt hurt that someone doesnt enjoy your advice, besides the car you describe sounds pretty orky, and of course it will work because orks belive it will.

Dash is absolutely right about Battlewagons. They should either deliver troops or sit and shoot. They cannot do both and they rather suck at the latter. If a battlewagon gets two turns of movement that is a (13+13+2+d6+6) 35-40" turn 2 threat radius. That is the raison d'etre of a battle wagon. Boarding planks are great if the target you reach on turn 2 is a vehicle.

I just have a question for the OP. Do you want help with your list? or are you just looking to argue with people on why you chose each unit the way you chose each unit. It sounds like you just want to argue and debate about units with people. For the record, its so pointless to post a list if you already feel that its the best. Every point anyone has made about your units you have shot down. From battlewagons to deffcoptas to the sluggas and shoota boyz. Sounds to me like you have everything figured out...so why post?

Olympia: we run a similer list and I really enjoy your BR. I dont want them to do both I just don't think 40 extra points on rokkitz to give me the option to sit and shoot is bad. other than that all the BW's have one weapon for a destroyed result.

Bad sheep: I would like advice. "deff kopters are out of place" OK what do you suggest I put in its place. Constructive criticizim is great but without adding something other than "you got a unit of slugga boys
and four extra rokkitz, your list is crap" if you just chime in to knock the list and thats all then I will explain why I made my choices, but the only real advice I see here is shooty or choppy not both."Gunboat Orksies" denotes shooty but one squad with one less shot and one extra attack on the charge does not deviate into choppy that much. If you tear somthing down you better put something back in its place, "Constructive Criticizim" not Dashes Flames.

Grimgob wrote:Olympia: we run a similer list and I really enjoy your BR. I dont want them to do both I just don't think 40 extra points on rokkitz to give me the option to sit and shoot is bad. other than that all the BW's have one weapon for a destroyed result.

Bad sheep: I would like advice. "deff kopters are out of place" OK what do you suggest I put in its place. Constructive criticizim is great but without adding something other than "you got a unit of slugga boys
and four extra rokkitz, your list is crap" if you just chime in to knock the list and thats all then I will explain why I made my choices, but the only real advice I see here is shooty or choppy not both."Gunboat Orksies" denotes shooty but one squad with one less shot and one extra attack on the charge does not deviate into choppy that much. If you tear somthing down you better put something back in its place, "Constructive Criticizim" not Dashes Flames.

There are a dozen things you could replace the koptas with. Telling you that you're spending dozens of points on 2 copies of a fragile unit that has almost no chance of doing anything isn't non-constructive criticism. Everything else on the table has 14 front armor... the koptas are going to eat 100% of your opponents small and medium arms fire and explode instantly, at best getting off a single round of attacks even on a lucky outflank.

You spent 80 points on arming your battlewaggons with weapons that don't make much sense. How many people have to tell you this?
A battlewagon can do one of three things:
Drive forward 12" to get boyz into the fight.
Drive forward 6" and fire a single weapon along with the boyz inside shooting.
Sit still and fire everything.

If you're going to sit there and shoot, then you've built your list wrong.
If you're going to slowely trundle up the map, then you've built your wagons and boyz wrong.
If you're going to charge, then you've built your wagons and boyz wrong.

again saying nothing.
what would you replace the deff kopters with?
Whats the 70 point waste? I see the 40 mentioned but the other 30? there are 11 or so armys and you do not use the same tatics against all of them. What would you do to fix 1. sit and shoot list 2.slowly trundle list 3.a charge list? again "you've built it wrong" is just critacizim. What would you do to make it better is constructive, like actually suggesting units to replace wasted points. Am I the only one that sees it that way?

Grimgob wrote:again saying nothing.
what would you replace the deff kopters with?
Whats the 70 point waste? I see the 40 mentioned but the other 30? there are 11 or so armys and you do not use the same tatics against all of them. What would you do to fix 1. sit and shoot list 2.slowly trundle list 3.a charge list? again "you've built it wrong" is just critacizim. What would you do to make it better is constructive, like actually suggesting units to replace wasted points. Am I the only one that sees it that way?

I explained why large parts of the list were a bad idea, as have other people. Your gear and upgrade selections are haphazard and you're either splitting your forces, wasting half of them, or wasting sizable points on things you can't use for most of the game.

If your only response is 'I'M NOT MAKING ANY CHANGES, I'D LIKE TO SEE YOU DO BETTER', then I'm not sure people telling you exactly how to build a different list you apparently don't want is going to help.

No one said "I'm not changing anything" I said give suggestions of what would give it more synergy, not just "it's a flawed list". How does that help?

Grimgob wrote:No one said "I'm not changing anything" I said give suggestions of what would give it more synergy, not just "it's a flawed list". How does that help?

It's a flawed list, the synergy just isn't there. In order for people to improve it they'd have to rewrite sizable parts of it, and you're sticking to your guns on trying to build a mechanized/shooty/assault list. You can't have everything, and sacrificing quality and quantity for weakened versatility isn't going to work well.
People in the thread have tried to tweak what you have and you've turned them all down. I can't play out a game in my head where those rokkits will be usable without hamstringing half your list, and even then their effect is minimal.

There have ben no suggestions to tweek the list just "it a bad list". I guess 4 BW's with four scoring units and a KFF is not a good foundation.I am willing to drop Def kopters but what would you replace them with? the only other issues said were to many points on rokkitz and a unit of choppy boys should be shooty or go all choppy in all BW's. this does not make a whole rewritten list. not to mention that different areas have different META.

At the Irish GT I ran 2 deff koptas with rokkits (one also had a buzzsaw). They are now gone from my list and have been replaced with a trukk mob. Granted, I had to shave a few more points because a trukk mob is slightly more expensive than the koptas. Having said that, without the koptas I would not have won a crucial game. My opponent left Eldrad's falcon too close and after a turbo-boost, move, and charge the koptas were able to immobilize his transport. Out of the six games that was actually the only thing useful they did. Granted, that was essential for the win......I'm ambivalent....

Olympia: Thanks for that. I feel the same way about the defkoppters, thats why I was thinking of running buggies w/ rokkitz as a screen. any other suggestion of what to replace them with (although another troop in transport w/ a Power Klaw aint bad).

Dashofpepper wrote:Your army list seems a little awkward.

It's not akward needs just needs tweaking. I have seen many armies like this, most worked. Know its weaknesses (mainly gunlines with heavy weapons and not getting first turn) it can work well.

Dashofpepper wrote:Either way, your effectiveness is gimped.

Ok to woork on this:

Those BW seem to be draining your points. Drop some and have some foot sloggers. With your KFF it wont be too bad. Get some warbikers too i think thesse would be good to help occupy the enemy along with your deffkoptas.

I actually have some warbikers comming in the mail. don't want to use foot sloggers cause my local meta has collosuses (I think thats plural). and on a side note my BW's run around 135pts.

i wouldnt suggest foot sloggers unless you're playing a kan wall. no offense.

well you have a lot of different concepts in a single army list and orks dont do so well when you spread them thin. i would suggest that you focus more on a single concept with a back up plan.

for example. if you want to really go shooty. then change some stuff for lootas and and use all shoota boys.
the kannons for me haven't really done much but it may have been a different story for you.
my BWs usually move max becuase i need to close the gap ASAP to reduce casualties and start smacking my opponents face

or if you want to focus on the usual orky goodness(running in and assulting) you can change the shoota boys in the BW's to more slugga boys in trukks with supporting fire from lootas and i would suggest getting burnas, just because they can kill most MEQ's and who doesn't want 15 flamers in a single unit

if you really plan on using deff koptas i would put them together in a squad and only give 1 of them a buzzsaw so you can allocate wounds. i dont really use them hehe

well thats wht i think

*shakes his head in disbelief*

OP, you're going to scoff at my suggestions by calling me names, make fun of my personal hobbies, and tell me that I'm TFG.

Pot, meet kettle. Your list is apparently absolutely phenomenal despite 100% of users thinking it is not, and you needn't post it because you're not open to comments. I would encourage you to revise how you interact with other people; you're being unconscionably rude.

Bob: Lootas are great. in bigger point lists I take; 1850 take out defkopters and stuff add 15 lootas, 2000 points add another 15 lootas. my focus is on shooting, back up plan is charging if I have too. I only use the sluggas because thats what i have painted. but 1 squad of choppy boys hasn't been too detramental to my list but I will run a couple of games with shootas instead. Nobs instead of burnas to get 4th BW but the points for a burna unit would be easier to swallow. deff kopters together always give me leadership issue but I have tried running them together. I really like the kannons they do work for me but thank you for all the suggestions.

again Dash: what name did I call you? I made fun of your music nothing else. Im open to comments I just don't like your advice in specific and people came to the unbeatable dakka ork mech guys defence but did not give advice to make it better either. just saying it sucks is not advice. Butt hurt. there has been a few posts with good advice though and you even knock a lot of advice given in this section so please chill out.

Dashofpepper wrote:

When someone has a crap list, I make a short post, usually along the lines of, "I'm not sure you understand how to play Orks," kind of like the one you got. Your list and expressed tactics for using it are fundamentally flawed. I can help someone tweak their engine to make it run more smoothly and get better performance and am glad to do so...

But your army list is like a car with square wheels, you've put sugar into the gas-tank, put in a $600 stereo with no locks on the door, and pimped it with 22" rims on one side, donuts on the other, and put hydraulics on the donuts to try balancing things out. I can't fix crap like that, I can only point out what a terrible car it is and how you need to go back to the drawing board.

Call me names all you like; a crap army list is a crap army list.

Wow, just wow... I have seen the internet make one pretentious, but you have mastered it sir. Why even have a forum, just post what you use and everyone can just copy that.

In grimgob's defense I think the deffkoptas are just fine. It keeps the enemy honest when deploying and if they don't respect them there can be some dead vehicles first turn. It is also the best way to deal with a colossus hiding behind a wall of tanks. It is a throw away unit, but if played right, well worth the trade. They are basically fire dragons, storm troopers, suicidal chaos terminators, etc.

The boarding planks are a must as well, its the best way to take out a landraider (cept deff rolla for now).

I love lootas maybe drop a BW or something to fit some in. They are just way to good to pass up.

Lets see....your name implies that your sole purpose here is to be dumb....check.

You're brand new to the forums here with a grand total of two posts meaning that you know nothing about the community here nor its denizens....check.

You resurrect an old thread by a poster whom the rest of dakka-ites avoid because he insults people who give him advice contrary to his own apparently godly-inspired wisdom....check.

Your only posts here on the forums exist to insult another player....check.

And you show up to strangely resurrect a thread that no one else posts in because the OP is rude. Also check.

My guess is that you are the OP, either banned for being a tard, or with an alternate identity to play internet games and support your own poor ideas. Whether you are or not is irrelevant. I would strongly encourage you to read the forum rules. Your first sentence is inflammatory and serves no purpose other than flamebait, and to provoke me. You're welcome to interpret my posts and advice anyway you like, but do the internet a favor and keep your opinions about other people to yourself if you lack the maturity or ability to be either constructive or cordial. That kind of crap isn't welcome around here.

I'm *this* close to really dropping the hammer on a lot of people in this thread.

Instead, I'm going to STRONGLY suggest everyone read the rules here:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/core/forum_rules.jsp

If, after doing that, anything is UNCLEAR and posting in the style which has come before this continues?

Well, it won't be pretty.