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Redbeard wrote:Doesn't a broodlord also offer an additional way to get synapse around the field? Either infiltrating, or outflanking the stealers gives you opportunities to get a synapse creature into your opponent's area, possibly opening up approaches for other bugs?

No, the brood lord lacks synapse in the new codex

Shep wrote:A few people have been advocating broodlords to increase survivability of genestealer units. I feel compelled to chime in and dispel that concept.

I agree he probably isn't worth the points, if he hit a little harder, or his psyker powers worked a little more often, he would be far better.

currently i've only run him once, basically he is nice to stun a sargant with power sword or equally evil thing that will kill a few stealers before they get to swing because they assaulted into cover.

also its worth noting that stealers with poison get to reroll fails to wound against many targets, these rerolls can rend, making them much more effective than you would initially think, rather easily overtaking the broodlord in points/kill.

The Broodlord is good in cetain situations, but a take all comers list can usually do fine without him. I will reiterate that his worth jumps up when the Stealer unit is 18+ strong as you can't buy the bodies to take his place. In this case he can be worth the cost, but the squad is already drawing so many points from your list that most people won't want to make a 280pt unit a 326pt unit. Or maybe they do as it could play tricks with certain victory conditions namely the one which gives your opponent points for killing the highest point unit in the army.

The only way to get the old psychic scream trick to make enemy units -3 or -4 to leadership checks is with muliple Broodlords running around. The ability only works in a 6" range and the cost to run that many Broodlords is very prohibitive.

I'm surprised no-one has really mentioned his T5 boost meaning he can take a hit from a battlecannon and if you are spaced out properly you won't lose many models at all. This is in addition to all the other benefits people have mentioned. Take a wound when needed to avoid losing a model, stop a pesky power weapon attacking when you assault into cover, use his S bonus to get some more glances on vehicles. Get down to just the broodlord? Hide behind/in cover on an objective and GtG.

I think there is a lot more going on than just 4 stealers worth of points.

Shep wrote:

Melchiour wrote: His psychic ability can totally disable a powerfist in a unit that you are attacking, keeping 3 genestealers alive an extra turn.

I do think that this is easily his most powerful function. I personally really hate abilities that you pay for that then require an opponent to fail a stat check to have any use. It just irks me. In defense of this particular ability, it does trigger more than it fails, and in some instances it has a very high percentage of functionality.

Another thing to point out is that the Broodlord must be in base-2-base contact in order to hypnotyze his oponent. Therefore, your opponent will do his best to screen his hidden powerfists and special cc weapons in order to ensure they stay hidden. Admitably, this isn't a concern when facing elite CC units that all possess special CC weapons (TH SS Termies, Banshees, WG, ect.)

When I look at all you need to pull this potentially usefull ability off: 1) pass a psychic test 2) Avoid it being blocked by a hood, SITW, runic weapon, ect 3) Be in base contact 4) and win a stat check, it seams pretty unreliable.

Bear in mind you only have to get equal your opponent on the Leadership + d6 test, not beat it. That's actually pretty likely, given your Ld10. Against a Ld9 opponent you'll do that 26 times out of 36 (around 66%). Against Ld8, 30 times out of 36 (76%).

Now I know I'm a little late but I think it's important enough to bring up since it hasn't been mentioned and I didn't bring it up in my original posts. Referring back to ymgarls assaulting vehicles:

Assaulting with +1 S and combined with furious charge from the Swarmlord they may get to S6 which can give a couple of vehicles a hammering, but you also need to ensure you get some protection from attacks the next turn. If possible ensure that 1 genestealer (and 1 only) engages a non-vehicle unit. This way you get locked into combat and still get a decent round of attacks against vehicles.

I think the above could be boosted if you can get a Tervigon in range to throw FNP on them as well on the turn they arrive.

Personally, I think the above tactic is definitely worth trying. Why? Simply for the reason that they can pen a LAND RAIDER on the charge that turn. Sure it's unlikely, but they said the same thing about assault cannons and those have better odds than a Lascannon!

(Sorry, I should point out that I was including chance to get your psychic test off as well, in those percentages for the Broodlord's chance to get his power off.)

I like the Swarmlord for his abilities to do things like the above mentioned genestealer smackdown. And I don't think I'd ever take a standard walking Tyrant based on what you get for the costs but in generaly he tends not to be a part of my army since my HQ's are one of Flyrants/Parasite/Prime.

Oh, and the 4th part of my article is up:

http://hulksmash-homeplace.blogspot.com/2010/11/can-tyranids-compete-part-4.html

Looks like it just got easier to run mycetic spores. Chapterhouse have a really nice one for sale now.

What are some good Carnifex builds for deep striking behind enemy lines? I've been thinking of dropping one armed with 2 sets of devourers, which can munch tank rear armour, then let its instinctive behavior take over and have it rampage behind their forces.

Carnifexes with devourers are great to DS in, though if that's all you want to use it for then you may as well use a trygon. More wounds, better in cc and less prone to mishaps.

Of course having 3 carnifexes DSing in will still put the hurt on.

I'm avoiding Trygons outside of apocalypse (to me, they're still Forgeworld creatures and shouldn't have been in the codex).

A trygon is hands down better for deepstrike usage. The only thing I can see that is better for the carnifex when used in a DS role is that it has a more accurate weapon (devourers are the best choice) and has 1 point of S higher. That can make a big difference but the survivability just isn't there. I personally would just put 2 or 3 fexes on the table, run the first turn and shoot the hell out of whatever is in front of you after that.

Of course DSing 3 fexes puts out a lot of high S shots in 1 go, but you really have to prioritize well to ensure they survive the next turn. Maybe combine with deepstriking devourer gaunts and zoanthropes. That way you have something for everyone. You are also gonna need a tyrant with Hive Commander for reliability.

The thing with carnifexes vs trygons for surviability is carnifexes are much much more likely get cover saves (actually not hard at all with a bunch of spores) and can be totally hidden if typical cities of death terrain is in play. Trygons, not so much. This is totally situational of course but something that gets lost when comparing the two (and in my opinion is why there's not much of a price gap between the two).

It's pretty amazing how much I have warmed up to carnifex over the last few months.

Anyone's first reaction to the comparison between the two is that 40 points is well worth a 50% increase in survivability and fleet. Disregarding the ability to safely deep strike, even.

Its too easy to forget the difference in strength values. I had a game turn from a win to a tie just the other day because I couldn't kill a land raider in time to stop it from contesting.

If you don't need your MC to deep strike, and you are really fielding it for late game midfield vehicle busting... You know, all those empty weaponless transports or tanks that have tank shocked their way past your gants. Then the carnifex is certainly the right man for the job.

As winterman pointed out. He'll have a cover save, he won't eat up a catalyst, and nothing flips tanks like a fex.

Plus a Carnifex can carry light vehicle busting weaponry like a Heavy Venom Cannon. Think about a Battlewagon: you don't want to get tank-shocked by one, but they're Open-topped, which makes the Heavy Venom Cannon precisely as effective as a Lascannon.

Don't forget that they can also carry Frag Spines (Assault Grenades) and an Adrenal Gland for a potential I4, which is handy when it comes to Defilers, Soulgrinders, and heavy infantry in cover. Plus the whole Brood thing means that you can stick an Independent Character with them...

What are peoples impressions about arming carnifex? It seems to me that the re-rolls are too valuable to give up. Taking a heavy venom cannon drops the chance to hit a vehicle by 1/9-1/6 depending on the speed.

Exactly, a moving vehicle is too hard to hit in close combat. An Immobilized vehicle, on the other hand, is hit automatically (or on WS for Immobilized or Stunned Walkers vs Grenades).

A weapon like the Venom Cannon or the Heavy Venom Cannon will most likely Shake, Stun, or Immobilize a vehicle. They're interdiction weapons, rather than kill-weapons. But that's the weakness of vehicles: They can be suppressed more easily than infantry. Against infantry you need Pinning weapons, whereas against vehicles you just need a strong enough gun.

They're also handy anti-infantry weapons if you don't want to get your monster bogged down by infantry. A S9 blast'll cause Instant Death on Ork Nobz, Tyranid Warriors, Space Marine Captains, etc, while a S6 will at least cause Instant Death to Eldar and Imperial Guard.

The Barbed Strangler and the Heavy Venom Cannon also give the Carnifex some reach.

I'm not so sure a moving vehicle is too hard to hit with re-rolls.

A carnifex with 2X scything talons will hit (and propaply pen anything but a monolith) a vehicles moving 6" 3 out of four times. On the charge that is 3.75 hits. Against something moving 12" it will hit 1.53 times. Those are pretty good odds. I agree with Nurglitch that some reach moght be a good idea, as it can be hard for a 'fex to actually catch anything.

The problem I have with the carnifex heavy weapons is pretty much the removal of the gunfex option. Not to mention the irritation that my lovingly converted gunfexes became illegal -- this also gives you some subpar options for the other arm set imo. It'd be great if you could add another 36" range blast (or similar) but instead you pay a good bunch of extra points for non-complimentary options. That's why I gravitate toward either dual brainleech or dual scytal (with or without charge bonus upgrades depending on points).

For me in my local meta I regularly face 2 SW players who both run ML spam and Jaws as well as an IG player who runs a chimera wall with tons of plasma and vendettas as his anti tank. For me personally a carnifex is bait for the former and not survivable enough for the latter. I need a unit that can get more mileage in both situations.

That said I still do take fexes...just not for deepstrike. 2 fexes with devourers starting on the table is a real hammer of a unit and is easier to keep out of Jaws, ML and plasma range, while still posing a threat to a lot of other stuff.

I ran 2 carnifexes with frag spines and 2x scy tals for about 3 months (didn't think of the twin prime grouping or I'd have done that as well) By far and away the problem I had most often was actually catching my opponent before I got vaporized. I also run 2 venomthropes behind them (in a monstrous creature castle typically, tervigon on one side, tyrant on the other, with the hive guard in the middle as well) but the whole thing was just too slow to get to the enemy. The 5+ cover for the creatures in front meant I'd get at least 1/2 way up the board before losing one, but overall it was frustrating to spend 4 turns getting to my enemy while watching the rest of the game unfold.

It's interesting to read various areas interpretation of cover saves. In NZ, you'd be hard pressed to get a cover save for a carnifex from warriors or hive guard, the thought being that 50% of the model means 50% volume, not height (i don't necessarily agree, though I don't often argue the point) and getting a cover save from Gargoyles requires some careful deployment so the ones on shorter bases cover the legs and the ones on taller bases cover the rest.


Better late than never, but right now I'm experimenting with Hormagaunts. Specifically, I'm running two mid size units of 15-20 each, one set with Toxin Sacs and one set with Adrenal Glands.

I also run a Hive Commander Tyrant and have had great luck with outflanking the hormagaunts.

Having a set of each buys me the flexibility to adapt to what I have in front of me. Is there a parking lot on the table? Send the adrenal Gland hormies and hopefully get some of that soft AV10.
Devestators / Long Fangs? Toxin Sac hormagaunts are better against those.

Neither? Walk them both up the board and send a different troop or decline to use the ability.

Still early testing, but so far it's been quite good for me.

With my pair of Carnifexes, I plan on using my Winged Hive Tyrant as a way to try and funnel transports to my main blob, where my Carnifexes are.

The point of cover is huge to me. My group runs decent cover on our boards, plenty to hide, or at least provide a cover save to, a Carnifex. A Trygon would, however, still be a pretty visible target.

As for wanting to Deep Strike a Carnifex over a Trygon, it's purely down to preference, and wanting to have a S9 beastie behind thier lines. Seeing two coming up the table is a nice target, having a third behind your line, after hitting a tank or causing some nice wounds to a unit, is a conundrum. Trygons have a nice shooting attack, but the Spore Pod makes the Carnifex more reliable (since it means it can't have a bad drop and die), and if the Carnifex is left alone to hit the other Fexes walking to their lines, it can rampage into the rear of a tank or into a unit until Synapse catches up.

Texas Instrument wrote:All it takes is one failed save. 3+ is nice... but not anything against s8+ weaps. Hive tyrant doesnt start taking whole models off per wound. 8 dice will usually cause 4 fails. thats enough to kill the whole zoanthrope brood.

I'm not sure what you mean by "8 dice" but against a 3+ invul thats not equal to 4 fails.

8 Shots from str 8+ weapons nets you on average: BS 3 = 4 hits, BS 4 is 5.28 hits, BS 3 TL is 6, BS 4 Tl is 7.12.
After rolling to wound that's 3.33, 4.39, 4.99, and 5.8 wounds respectively.
Lastly rolling 3 up invul nets you 1.09, 1.44, 1.66 and 1.93 instant deaths.

Now even if you go with 8 shots that are hits and wounds (which you would need around 14 BS 4 missle launcher shots to reach that number for example) then looking at 2.664 unsaved wounds which can be enough to kill a group of three, but it certainly isn't 4. Perhaps the 4 was a typo?

ramongoroth wrote:Now even if you go with 8 shots that are hits and wounds (which you would need around 14 BS 4 missle launcher shots to reach that number for example) then looking at 2.664 unsaved wounds which can be enough to kill a group of three, but it certainly isn't 4. Perhaps the 4 was a typo?

Until you stick a regenerating prime in there and soak up heavy weapons with him

I’m curious, has anyone in Dakka land tried to go with a large amount of SPods with Barb strangles? I’m aware of the mindless rule, but I think you could drop them with pretty good effect to their target. I think a Hive Commander would be required to get the pods to arrive in mass, but also the ability to be effectively a tank trap in tight areas might be useful.
The other thing is that you can add these transports to say gene stealers, but still use the infiltrate or outflanking abilities based on the army you are facing similar to marines deploying outside their pods. Marines Death wind launchers don’t fire the turn they drop… and don’t have 36 range!
Hive Tyrant
wings
Hive Commander
Paroxysm, Pschic scream
Lash whips, Bone swords
Heavy Venom Cannon
Adrenal Glands

Mycetic Spore
Barbed Strangler
Carnifex

Mycetic Spore
Barbed Strangler
Carnifex

5 Genestealers
Mycetic Spore
Barbed Strangler

5 Genestealers
Mycetic Spore
Barbed Strangler

5 Genestealers
Mycetic Spore
Barbed Strangler

Mycetic Spore
Barbed Strangler
13 Genestealers

Mycetic Spore
Barbed Strangler
10 Genestealers

Doom of Malan'tai
Mycetic Spore
Barbed Strangler

2 Zoanthrope Brood
Mycetic Spore
Barbed Strangler
1850

Something like army may have many short comings, but it does have 9 Large blast and 5 Infiltrating/ outflanking troops. Not to be discounted is the 6 S6 shots the spods can kick out, range and BS2 kinds sucks. The idea of the carnies is to cause havoc defending the ‘thropes or closing on vehicles that don’t move to fast. The carnies can also charge in with the Tryant… who’s a little high priced, but still can wreck faces in CC and deep strike in with a S9 blast. He can alternate between hi s VC + Scream to force break test, or move to assault with Paroxysm +Whips/Sword.

I don't think you get to land the Mycetic Spores without the Brood it comes with inside.

Q: If a Tyranid unit takes a Mycetic Spore, can it choose
to deploy normally whilst the empty Mycetic Spore
deep strikes on its own?
A: No.

damn.. GW faq'ed it...

***

The idea still stands, would large numbers of Spods dropping templates everywhere be a viable tactic?

Maybe. I'd put Heavy Venom Cannons in them instead. Better to chew through vehicles and slow them down for the kill by the occupants of said Spores.