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 recruittons wrote:
I warned away a few people from this by pointing them to this thread and letting them make their own decisions. It seemed to be quite effective.

I wish someone would post a link to this or the Dakka Discussions thread in the KS comments for those unaware of the history here / danger of giving them money through an avenue like Kickstarter. Unfortunately, to do so you have to pledge. I know many may still risk it- but at least people would have the facts who don't check Dakka / other wargaming forums.

 RiTides wrote:

 recruittons wrote:
I warned away a few people from this by pointing them to this thread and letting them make their own decisions. It seemed to be quite effective.

I wish someone would post a link to this or the Dakka Discussions thread in the KS comments for those unaware of the history here / danger of giving them money through an avenue like Kickstarter. Unfortunately, to do so you have to pledge. I know many may still risk it- but at least people would have the facts who don't check Dakka / other wargaming forums.

Yes, I think people should be informed.
It is in the comments section already, but not detailed.
That being said, I do have confidence in this more than maelstrom... the business model is not as odd (and RoW shipping isn't free )

 RiTides wrote:

 recruittons wrote:
I warned away a few people from this by pointing them to this thread and letting them make their own decisions. It seemed to be quite effective.

I wish someone would post a link to this or the Dakka Discussions thread in the KS comments for those unaware of the history here / danger of giving them money through an avenue like Kickstarter. Unfortunately, to do so you have to pledge. I know many may still risk it- but at least people would have the facts who don't check Dakka / other wargaming forums.

Can't someone just pledge 1 dollar or the min pledge level to post the comments and then pull it before the KS ends?
Of course, they might just delete the comments -_-

silent25 wrote:


People still haven't gotten much. Saying you will deliver something in July 2012 and people still don't have it come January 2013 is still a scam. It just doesn't border criminal levels of scamming like Maelstrom has.

Wrong.

A Scam is taking money without ANYTHING in return.
AoW delivers. Slowly, but steadily.
THAT IS NOT A SCAM.

Stop saying AoW is scamming anyone without anykind of proof.

 RiTides wrote:

 recruittons wrote:
I warned away a few people from this by pointing them to this thread and letting them make their own decisions. It seemed to be quite effective.

I wish someone would post a link to this or the Dakka Discussions thread in the KS comments for those unaware of the history here / danger of giving them money through an avenue like Kickstarter. Unfortunately, to do so you have to pledge. I know many may still risk it- but at least people would have the facts who don't check Dakka / other wargaming forums.

Anyone can pledge and withdraw it before the kickstarter finishes.

Yes pledge £1 and select the no reward option then you can post comments and you can cancel your pledge any time.

EDIT sorry misunderstood Herzlos post I read it as a question not a statement

HI,

apologies for not posting here sooner. There's a couple of places I haven't posted yet and getting the KS up and running itself and answering Qs there, via message and also email took priority yesterday before we went home for the day.

Of course people have their concerns, and of course some people won't back the project because of those concerns. That's entirely your choice and I respect your opinion.

Some people will (and have) backed the project and we will get those backers some luvverly miniatures in a timely fashion. Someone mentioned if this KS is a bit of 'bridge builder'. Yes it is (as well as a funding project of course). We're aware of the need to improve our reputation and now all of the MG orders for Mierce product that was never shipped by MG has now been shipped by us (2nd batch was dispatched last week/this week) we can keep a solid eye on the KS. Our timetables are realistic - The only point of possible delay is if a sculptor falls behind his work schedule (which does happen, though we have added a bit of wiggle room). Ideally there's a good chance that we can ship of the pledges early though that depends on what they decide on at the end of the KS and what, if any stretch goals they go for or are unveiled along the way.

I've posted the following on KS which I'll post here. At the end of the day there are some people that we will never be in a position to win over and i accept that. Of course nobody has to back the project if their concerns are too much for them.

Here's the KS message

Hi Guys,
OK first of all a big THANK YOU to everyone that has pledged so far. This is the first time we've used Kickstarter and it's weird & nervy experience to put your plans to the world and ask people to join you in your plans to make a game. So again THANKS!
OK., the Maelstrom issue. Of course we knew this would come up and of course we understand that people may be concerned after MG went under in such a fashion.
I'm not going to go through every minute detail of our business as, after all that is our business. How we get funds to purchase the mini range either via private investor or business loans etc is entirely our concern (we're asking people to fund our new plans, not our business start up) . Many companies have started up a new business and have a wealth of releases ready from the get go without trading previously. Yes, we had investment, and we payed a fair price for the miniature range from MG as determined by an independent valuer who came in and went through all of the minis and equipment and the sales etc. Yes, we're owned by the same guy that used to own MG. The same guy owns multiple businesses.
The most important thing for backers is.....Will you get your stuff! Of course! We are 100% in control of our fulfillment here. We aren't out sourcing to China or indeed outsourcing anywhere. All of the miniatures are cast in-house. It costs more to make minis in the UK than it would to out-source to China but we want to be in control of
1) The quality. We use the highest quality resins and moulds available. The materials, techniques etc are only comparable to other high quality resin minis such as Studio McVey or Kingdom Death's ltd ed resin mini ranges (we used to use the same caster before we went in-house and learned our techniques from the same guy). We aren't going down the route of PVC plastics used in boardgames. They're perfectly OK, but they aren't the best available (resin is) and we aren't in a position of mass manufacture so can afford to keep in-house. Also, some of our larger and more complicated models aren't suitable for the process in any case.
2) Timescales. We make them ourselves. We can see what's happening as we make them in the same building as I'm typing this reply right now. We aren't reliant on a 3rd party who may or may not let us down. We have some of the most skilled hands in the industry in our production team and we're very proud of that. They will not let you down!
3) Shipping. Our minis come out of the moulds (or to our US backers 'molds') and into our hands, we won't have to wait for them to arrive in a shipping container. We are in control of our shipping forecast predictions as long as the sculpts arrive on time (and many are in-hand right now!) - we can turn around sculpt arrival, to moulding to casting very quickly.
4) IP - We want to keep our masters and moulds in our hands!
5) Pricing. Our pricing is realistic. Again, as we are going down the quality over quantity route our pricing needs to be realistic. There will be freebies along the way, but we're keeping a responsible head on the pricing so the pledges can be fulfilled. This is not the cheapest £/S per mini KS you will ever see. Nor do we want to be. We want to give you a very high quality product, in a realistic timetable for a realistic price. Every backer will be getting a deal that is a great saving on the RRP price via our own site. Also, we want to be realistic as far as our retail customers go. We want to fund the starter sets so people have the game in hand, start to play the game and go to their FLGS to play games and buy more minis. We are NOT looking to cut out the middle-man here. We work closely with our retailers and distributors and again a realistic approach helps here, if we wanted to pull off a big scam we'd go for a silly discount/deal with oodles of free stuff. We aren't, and we won't.
I hope the above re-assures people about our intentions and also our capabilities. If you like I could arrange for a video/photos of our production area? We're no might behemoth of production but we do have a very capable production facility and a great team! We've learned a lot about what we can do.
OK, cup of joe then I'll be back to answer more Qs! Apologies about the delay but I couldn't log in last night!

Still doesn't answer where the capital came from for rob lane to be able to purchase the business assets from maelstrom.

Thanks for posting all of that. The fact remains that I will not put money into Rob Lanes pocket, so I won't be backing or supporting anything that is related to him.

Regards

Sorry, but that is still avoiding the questions.

IS ROB LANE STILL INVOLVED?

WHERE DOES THE MONEY COME FROM?

HOW ARE YOU GONNA PROVE IT THAT MIERCE IS NOT PHOENIX?

Until these three questions are not answered it is more than justified to warn others.

Mierce Miniatures wrote:
5) Pricing. Our pricing is realistic. Again, as we are going down the quality over quantity route our pricing needs to be realistic. There will be freebies along the way, but we're keeping a responsible head on the pricing so the pledges can be fulfilled. This is not the cheapest £/S per mini KS you will ever see. Nor do we want to be. We want to give you a very high quality product, in a realistic timetable for a realistic price. Every backer will be getting a deal that is a great saving on the RRP price via our own site. Also, we want to be realistic as far as our retail customers go. We want to fund the starter sets so people have the game in hand, start to play the game and go to their FLGS to play games and buy more minis. We are NOT looking to cut out the middle-man here. We work closely with our retailers and distributors and again a realistic approach helps here, if we wanted to pull off a big scam we'd go for a silly discount/deal with oodles of free stuff. We aren't, and we won't.

The price of rank-and-file remains a deal breaker, before considering anything else. Even Forgeworld only charges £38 for ten Elysians, and you're looking at an RRP of £90 for the same quantity.

Yes Rob Lane is involved, he owns Mierce. They say that on the first page of the project.

And no, you are not justified to "warn" others, because you have NO knowledge of anything going wrong. You THINK you know something fishy, but have zero proof of anything.

You've been probably "screwed" by Maelstrom, but that does not automatically mean Mierce is doing ANYTHING wrong this time.

Get it?

@ Alex

THere are no rank n file models ... this is a skirmish game, not a game based on regiments. Yes, the price for the infantry is pretty high, but these are resin casts that can and should be compared to similar products.

Want to back this project, I just don't have any faith in getting my miniatures.

So nice of mierce miniatures to pop in again whenever they want our money but pretty much never answer any of the questions regarding their legitimacy


Automatically Appended Next Post:

RoninXiC wrote:
Yes Rob Lane is involved, he owns Mierce. They say that on the first page of the project.

And no, you are not justified to "warn" others, because you have NO knowledge of anything going wrong. You THINK you know something fishy, but have zero proof of anything.

You've been probably "screwed" by Maelstrom, but that does not automatically mean Mierce is doing ANYTHING wrong this time.

Get it?

@ Alex

THere are no rank n file models ... this is a skirmish game, not a game based on regiments. Yes, the price for the infantry is pretty high, but these are resin casts that can and should be compared to similar products.

I'm pretty sure if Madoff ran another business, people would be justified in warning people of his history. Same thing applies here

RoninXiC wrote:
You've been probably "screwed" by Maelstrom, but that does not automatically mean Mierce is doing ANYTHING wrong this time.

Get it?

I'm not claming that Mierce is doing anything wrong. I'm stating that the managing director will not see any of my money due to his past business dealings.

Get it?

Yes Rob Lane is involved, he owns Mierce. They say that on the first page of the project.

Good to know, so it would have been easy to answer this in their last post.

And no, you are not justified to "warn" others, because you have NO knowledge of anything going wrong. You THINK you know something fishy, but have zero proof of anything.

I actually do, I am working in this business for more than a decade and am well-iformed. So I do not assume I do know. I have seen enough phoenixes (anyone remember ... Heartbreaker>Target Games>I-Kore?) to know one when I see one. This one might work out for good as Urban Mammoth did, but they answered the crucial questions when asked cause they knew only that way they could regain trust, oh, and they got rid of those guys that burned them time and again.

You've been probably "screwed" by Maelstrom, but that does not automatically mean Mierce is doing ANYTHING wrong this time.

Nope, have not been screwed, since I more than 1-2 years ago realized that something was wrong and from then on stopped to order from them and warned others, and it turned out i was justified.

RoninXiC wrote:

silent25 wrote:

Sining wrote:
I see they lowballed this so they're pretty much guaranteed to get the 5k in funding. Whether any of the backers will receive their stuff remains to be seen -_-

They will make it and several stretch goals. If the Avatars of War indiegogo was an indicator, people will throw money at a project even when people are telling them directly to not trust the company. Did AoW finally deliver all their stuff? Think the "official" delivery date has come and gone.

Hold it right there!
AoW might be slow and lacking good communication, but they are NOT scamming anyone. NExt week they will have released 3 Dwarf units with 3 heroes. Not as much as they and we hoped, but it's a start.

Yeah, Felix is as slow as crap and has poor communication and customer service, and his IGG campaign didn't offer a compelling reason to pledge months out, but he'll come through eventually. Felix/AoW is simply a "wait for retail" option. Miercestrom is an entirely different situation.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 cincydooley wrote:

This exact thing happend with me. I did not receive the rest of the order from Malestrom.

Listen, the Maelstrom 'incident' sucked. But I knew going in that I may not receive my wares. When I made the order, I took a calculated risk. Was getting the Bane Legions bear dude for like, $10 bucks worth losing that $10 bucks. For me, it was.

There was a gamble involved. I decided I was willing gamble with up to $50 for what amounted to over $300 of merch. I ended up getting a partial order which, while wasn't my full $50, was still worth nearly $200 retail. For about $30 bucks.

If they didn't fulfill some of the Bane Legions stuff, then email them. According to their PR/spin/damage control, they were filling all of Maelstrom's unfulfilled orders for their own product. Worth giving it a shot, especially since they're in "we're really not the same company" PR/Damage control mode still - especially with the Kickstarter on. I've got a feeling that they will be able to verify your partial order as I have a feeling that they also have access to all of Maelstrom's customer order information as well, given recent events...

Sining wrote:
I'm pretty sure if Madoff ran another business, people would be justified in warning people of his history. Same thing applies here

I think people have been warned though, so this constant endless conversation over the whole issue is beginning to get dull.

silent25 wrote:

People still haven't gotten much. Saying you will deliver something in July 2012 and people still don't have it come January 2013 is still a scam. It just doesn't border criminal levels of scamming like Maelstrom has.

I think you may have your wires crossed. The campaign (barely) funded on 26th June. I don't have any idea where you think they said they'd be delivering in July.

Now please don't make me need to defend AoW any more. I feel dirty enough as it is...

Same here ^^ AoW DO have some mediocre problems in their PR and timeframes... but they are not the Devil and neither is Mierce Miniatures.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

Sining wrote:
I'm pretty sure if Madoff ran another business, people would be justified in warning people of his history. Same thing applies here

I think people have been warned though, so this constant endless conversation over the whole issue is beginning to get dull.

Maybe skip the Maelstrom threads then? I manage to skip over the threads that don't interest me. I've pretty much said all I need to say about Lane/Maelstrom otherwise, so I'm talking about different aspects of the whole thing as you'll see. But you know, if for some reason I feel a need to repeat myself (probably as a response), then I will.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

RoninXiC wrote:

And no, you are not justified to "warn" others, because you have NO knowledge of anything going wrong. You THINK you know something fishy, but have zero proof of anything.

You don't get to be anyone else's moral arbiter. So maybe you should drop that line of discussion before reigniting it.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

Sining wrote:
I'm pretty sure if Madoff ran another business, people would be justified in warning people of his history. Same thing applies here

I think people have been warned though, so this constant endless conversation over the whole issue is beginning to get dull.

Whenever I come to this page I hope to see a new update on their miniatures. It's great they have Kickstarter going, and that they've already surpassed their goal. It's exasperating that the same circle discussions keep going on, and I swear a Mod poster earlier in the thread to move these claims to the discussion board. If I am mistaken though, and they haven't, this discussion really should. Does it have much place in the News and Rumors thread? You say you want to warn others away from Mierce? Okay, warning done. If you still want to discuss the perceived inadequacy of Mierce...please, can you just take it somewhere else?

 scipio.au wrote:

Maybe skip the Maelstrom threads then? I manage to skip over the threads that don't interest me. I've pretty much said all I need to say about Lane/Maelstrom otherwise, so I'm talking about different aspects of the whole thing as you'll see. But you know, if for some reason I feel a need to repeat myself (probably as a response), then I will.

This thread is titled "new rleases/pre-orders" and NOT discussion about MM honesty and stuff.

So a single post discussing the honesty is enough.

A question for Mierce Miniatures, without wanting to get into a verbal fight about the rights and wrong of things.

Given that Rob Lane is apparently struggleing to pay his mortgage (as you posted yourselves a few pages back) and given the large number of people in the wargaming hobby who want nothing more to do with him whatever business he is trading under (and it wasn't that large a segment of society to begin with) - do you not think it would be a good idea from a business perspective to buy him out of the company? This would give him the money to pay his mortgage and would ease a lot of peoples minds about the fact that you are a "new company" and not just a change in company name.

(/sarcasm) you could even make it a stretch goal. "If we get an extra £50k we won't give anything free - but will buy Rob Lane out of the business"

 ghosty wrote:

Whenever I come to this page I hope to see a new update on their miniatures. It's great they have Kickstarter going, and that they've already surpassed their goal. It's exasperating that the same circle discussions keep going on, and I swear a Mod poster earlier in the thread to move these claims to the discussion board. If I am mistaken though, and they haven't, this discussion really should. Does it have much place in the News and Rumors thread? You say you want to warn others away from Mierce? Okay, warning done. If you still want to discuss the perceived inadequacy of Mierce...please, can you just take it somewhere else?

Pretty sure there are two mods joining in this same updated discussion right now. Maybe three. You should tell them off. After all, you own this board. Right?

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

I think people have been warned though, so this constant endless conversation over the whole issue is beginning to get dull.

Indeed.

People have a right to have raised concerns, such concerns are now here for people to read and make their own decisions.
let's stick to news and info about new releases and pre orders.

IF there winds up being ... complications.. I'm sure there'll be a discussion about it as/when.

Good point, and just for the record, I simply posted "I wish someone would put the link on the Kickstarter page" (not, I wish we would discuss it here again). I have now done so, so people can be informed and make their own decisions about this (as you say, and as I think we all agree). People on Dakka are obviously already informed, and there is no need to continue to discuss it here.

I have a Kickstarter-related question- it apparently does not use Amazon payments, but asks for the credit card right there in Kickstarter. Is that how it is for all UK Kickstarters?

 RiTides wrote:
Good point, and just for the record, I simply posted "I wish someone would put the link on the Kickstarter page" (not, I wish we would discuss it here again). I have now done so, so people can be informed and make their own decisions about this (as you say, and as I think we all agree). People on Dakka are obviously already informed, and there is no need to continue to discuss it here.

I have a Kickstarter-related question- it apparently does not use Amazon payments, but asks for the credit card right there in Kickstarter. Is that how it is for all UK Kickstarters?

.........and there goes the other shoe. With no way to protect myself other than my CC company, I guess I wont be backing.

 RiTides wrote:


I have a Kickstarter-related question- it apparently does not use Amazon payments, but asks for the credit card right there in Kickstarter. Is that how it is for all UK Kickstarters?

Yes, this is how UK-Based Kickstarters work.

Scipio -- I only got my Banelegions/Mierce stuff from my last order.

Again, I took that calculated risk. I only spent the amount of money I was okay with losing because I knew I may. I looked at it sort of like a going out of business sale where there are no returns available and I bought an "as-is" TV. If it works, awesome that I got a TV for $50 bucks. If it doesn't...well, I knew it was a possibility.